Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
Ding Ding Ding....someone gets it.
Did you both have "fun" the last time your arse was handed to you on a plate in PvP? This conflation of why we game with "fun" is quite erroneous.
LMAO PVP is not fun to me so I don't PVP. Very simple sir. Again I ask, is their something wrong with playing games for fun? Please tell me how that is erroneus. Seriously. You calling playing games for fun erroneous is quite erroneous.
I loved the dynamic factions without hard allies, enemies, friends, neutral, like and dislike. I liked races being different and each one having a home area. I liked vastly mixed leveled areas. I like that quest weren't forced and overdone. Those are some things I think would make modern mmorpgs
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I loved the dynamic factions without hard allies, enemies, friends, neutral, like and dislike. I liked races being different and each one having a home area. I liked vastly mixed leveled areas. I like that quest weren't forced and overdone. Those are some things I think would make modern mmorpgs
Those are the things that bring MMORPGs to life. Its amazing how lifeless most current games are because their games are just a bunch of lifeless npcs that stand around and have no opinion on anything.
Pantheon Rise of the fallen is going to have like a dozen faction systems that apply to every facet of the game. Everything you do effects the way the world reacts to you.
Sums up exactly my view on the oldies vs the newer mmorpgs.
Deaths in newer MMO's have absolutely no concequence. In EQ you took care with everything you did and prepared well before heading on a journey, because the last thing you wanted was to do a corpse run.
Sometimes I just log into EQ or UO to check if old mates are online, or just to go for a walk along memory lane.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I'm sorry, whose idea of fun is the right one? You and Naru are the ones painting your way as the best way, while we just want some modern games to cater to us. Considering the "majority" of gamers as you put it already get the lion's share of MMOs, we're a large enough group to deserve at least a couple of new MMOs every few years that caters to us. You both act as if it would be the end of the genre if they tried catering to anyone else but you and those like you.
What? Where did I ever say my way is the best way. Where did I say please don't make games for these people. I'm pointing out the fact that the people you're trying to defend is telling the guy he can't JUST HAVE FUN. It's wrong for him to have fun the way he does. Please try again sir. I'd say learn to read. The hyprocisy is astounding.
And you know what? I truely hope they make games for the likes of you. It would make me a happy camper. I won't have to read all the whining that is constantly on this website but even if they did, you guys would still whine because even if they give exactly what you want, it's still not EQ.
Another thing, you want the games made the way you want? Support the games. Why did Vanguard die out? Because you didn't support it. Why did EQ change to the way it is now. Because you didnt support it. Why did Pantheon didn't get any backers. Because you didn't support. You feel the market you're in is big enough to be supported? Support the games that cater to you.
AAA companies arent dumb. They know where the market is. They know where the money is. It's definitely not an EQ remake. And please stop with the games being shallow because it's made for the masses. Your fun is not any better than the fun of others. You're idea of good doesn't make it better than anyone else.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
You both make a lot of assumptions about what other posters do in their spare time, don't ya. I still play EQ on occasion and I played Vanguard till it shut down. I play Final Fantasy XIV, which is the closest thing to the older style we have right now. I'm even playing the Draenor content in WoW. I certainly don't appreciate you telling me what I have and have not done without any shred of evidence and using it as ammunition for your argument.
In regards to kickstarters, I have already backed both Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar (several hundred each) and once I get some more mad cash, I will consider Pantheon as well. Once again, you make incorrect assumptions to bolster your argument.
One of the problem's these days is 'time' and those who want the game to sacrifice to make up for their lack of time, we really needed an offshoot for such players, not modifying what an mmorpg used to be so that they can knock in an hour or two a week.
So over the years an mmorpg has become a pale shadow of what it once was so those who don't have time to play as they used to but want to level just as fast can play. Then ofcourse item wear etc takes up time and getting the money for repairs means repetition .. so that gets cut.
Don't have enough time to get in your old group .. no problem, just make game more solo friendly
Whereas it should have been, sorry you can't commit to the game as you used to, we understand if you leave and look forward to your return.
Oddly i think most those people who didn't have time .. would suddenly find enough time
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I'm sorry, whose idea of fun is the right one? You and Naru are the ones painting your way as the best way, while we just want some modern games to cater to us. Considering the "majority" of gamers as you put it already get the lion's share of MMOs, we're a large enough group to deserve at least a couple of new MMOs every few years that caters to us. You both act as if it would be the end of the genre if they tried catering to anyone else but you and those like you.
What? Where did I ever say my way is the best way. Where did I say please don't make games for these people. I'm pointing out the fact that the people you're trying to defend is telling the guy he can't JUST HAVE FUN. It's wrong for him to have fun the way he does. Please try again sir. I'd say learn to read. The hyprocisy is astounding.
And you know what? I truely hope they make games for the likes of you. It would make me a happy camper. I won't have to read all the whining that is constantly on this website but even if they did, you guys would still whine because even if they give exactly what you want, it's still not EQ.
Another thing, you want the games made the way you want? Support the games. Why did Vanguard die out? Because you didn't support it. Why did EQ change to the way it is now. Because you didnt support it. Why did Pantheon didn't get any backers. Because you didn't support. You feel the market you're in is big enough to be supported? Support the games that cater to you.
AAA companies arent dumb. They know where the market is. They know where the money is. It's definitely not an EQ remake. And please stop with the games being shallow because it's made for the masses. Your fun is not any better than the fun of others. You're idea of good doesn't make it better than anyone else.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
LMAO, please show me where I whine sir. The only whining I see is from all jaded fans (including you) that thinks their idea of how MMOs should be is better than anything else. I'm just calling you peeps out on your narrow minded BS. If that's whining, I'll keep on whining for sure. Too funny.
P.S. I've read some of your comments. You're the person that don't even read peoples comments and just go on a tangent. Freaking hillarious.
You both make a lot of assumptions about what other posters do in their spare time, don't ya. I still play EQ on occasion and I played Vanguard till it shut down. I play Final Fantasy XIV, which is the closest thing to the older style we have right now. I'm even playing the Draenor content in WoW. I certainly don't appreciate you telling me what I have and have not done without any shred of evidence and using it as ammunition for your argument.
What assumptions, it's a fact that Vanguard got shut down right? It's a fact that EQ changed in directions from when it first came out right? It's a fact Pantheon didn't get enough to back it's kick starter right? Why did all this happen? Because there wasn't enough support for them.
And you making up things I do on these forums just for the sake of your argument is ok how? Hyprocrisy.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I'm sorry, whose idea of fun is the right one? You and Naru are the ones painting your way as the best way, while we just want some modern games to cater to us. Considering the "majority" of gamers as you put it already get the lion's share of MMOs, we're a large enough group to deserve at least a couple of new MMOs every few years that caters to us. You both act as if it would be the end of the genre if they tried catering to anyone else but you and those like you.
What? Where did I ever say my way is the best way. Where did I say please don't make games for these people. I'm pointing out the fact that the people you're trying to defend is telling the guy he can't JUST HAVE FUN. It's wrong for him to have fun the way he does. Please try again sir. I'd say learn to read. The hyprocisy is astounding.
And you know what? I truely hope they make games for the likes of you. It would make me a happy camper. I won't have to read all the whining that is constantly on this website but even if they did, you guys would still whine because even if they give exactly what you want, it's still not EQ.
Another thing, you want the games made the way you want? Support the games. Why did Vanguard die out? Because you didn't support it. Why did EQ change to the way it is now. Because you didnt support it. Why did Pantheon didn't get any backers. Because you didn't support. You feel the market you're in is big enough to be supported? Support the games that cater to you.
AAA companies arent dumb. They know where the market is. They know where the money is. It's definitely not an EQ remake. And please stop with the games being shallow because it's made for the masses. Your fun is not any better than the fun of others. You're idea of good doesn't make it better than anyone else.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
LMAO, please show me where I whine sir. The only whining I see is from all jaded fans (including you) that thinks their idea of how MMOs should be is better than anything else. I'm just calling you peeps out on your narrow minded BS. If that's whining, I'll keep on whining for sure. Too funny.
P.S. I've read some of your comments. You're the person that don't even read peoples comments and just go on a tangent. Freaking hillarious.
Please explain why you are here then, when the topic is obviously not to your liking? Your very style of writing screams whining and self-entitlement. One would think that you and Naru do nothing but go into threads about stuff you hate, just to bait those who like the things you don't.
You both make a lot of assumptions about what other posters do in their spare time, don't ya. I still play EQ on occasion and I played Vanguard till it shut down. I play Final Fantasy XIV, which is the closest thing to the older style we have right now. I'm even playing the Draenor content in WoW. I certainly don't appreciate you telling me what I have and have not done without any shred of evidence and using it as ammunition for your argument.
What assumptions, it's a fact that Vanguard got shut down right? It's a fact that EQ changed in directions from when it first came out right? It's a fact Pantheon didn't get enough to back it's kick starter right? Why did all this happen? Because there wasn't enough support for them.
And you making up things I do on these forums just for the sake of your argument is ok how? Hyprocrisy.
...and you accuse me of not reading before posting by taking my assumption comment out of context and attaching it to a completely different topic. The statement had nothing to do with the closing down or popularity of the games you listed.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I'm sorry, whose idea of fun is the right one? You and Naru are the ones painting your way as the best way, while we just want some modern games to cater to us. Considering the "majority" of gamers as you put it already get the lion's share of MMOs, we're a large enough group to deserve at least a couple of new MMOs every few years that caters to us. You both act as if it would be the end of the genre if they tried catering to anyone else but you and those like you.
What? Where did I ever say my way is the best way. Where did I say please don't make games for these people. I'm pointing out the fact that the people you're trying to defend is telling the guy he can't JUST HAVE FUN. It's wrong for him to have fun the way he does. Please try again sir. I'd say learn to read. The hyprocisy is astounding.
And you know what? I truely hope they make games for the likes of you. It would make me a happy camper. I won't have to read all the whining that is constantly on this website but even if they did, you guys would still whine because even if they give exactly what you want, it's still not EQ.
Another thing, you want the games made the way you want? Support the games. Why did Vanguard die out? Because you didn't support it. Why did EQ change to the way it is now. Because you didnt support it. Why did Pantheon didn't get any backers. Because you didn't support. You feel the market you're in is big enough to be supported? Support the games that cater to you.
AAA companies arent dumb. They know where the market is. They know where the money is. It's definitely not an EQ remake. And please stop with the games being shallow because it's made for the masses. Your fun is not any better than the fun of others. You're idea of good doesn't make it better than anyone else.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
LMAO, please show me where I whine sir. The only whining I see is from all jaded fans (including you) that thinks their idea of how MMOs should be is better than anything else. I'm just calling you peeps out on your narrow minded BS. If that's whining, I'll keep on whining for sure. Too funny.
P.S. I've read some of your comments. You're the person that don't even read peoples comments and just go on a tangent. Freaking hillarious.
Please explain why you are here then, when the topic is obviously not to your liking? Your very style of writing screams whining and self-entitlement. One would think that you and Naru do nothing but go into threads about stuff you hate, just to bait those who like the things you don't.
I call people out for their BS, what's wrong with that? Please tell me how my style of writing screams whining and self entitlement. Where in any of my post did I exude self entitlement? Because I call you out on your BS? Because I point out how narrowminded you people are? You might want to learn the meaning of self entitlement and whining.
I could care less what you enjoy and talk about. What I have beef with is the blanket statements that you all make.
"All new games are crap because it's not to my liking"
"People that play these new games are sheeps and chimps"
"All new games are mediocre because they are made for the masses"
I could go on and on. You don't want me responding? Don't make stupid BS statements like you own the genre and think just because you played when the genre was new, your ideas of what these games are supposed to be are better than anyone else. Until then, I will keep on being here becuase you sir don't own these forums.
You both make a lot of assumptions about what other posters do in their spare time, don't ya. I still play EQ on occasion and I played Vanguard till it shut down. I play Final Fantasy XIV, which is the closest thing to the older style we have right now. I'm even playing the Draenor content in WoW. I certainly don't appreciate you telling me what I have and have not done without any shred of evidence and using it as ammunition for your argument.
What assumptions, it's a fact that Vanguard got shut down right? It's a fact that EQ changed in directions from when it first came out right? It's a fact Pantheon didn't get enough to back it's kick starter right? Why did all this happen? Because there wasn't enough support for them.
And you making up things I do on these forums just for the sake of your argument is ok how? Hyprocrisy.
...and you accuse me of not reading before posting by taking my assumption comment out of context and attaching it to a completely different topic. The statement had nothing to do with the closing down or popularity of the games you listed.
Because it's a fact. I've read some of your comments and instead of responding to said comment you go on some wild tangent. There's no assumption there good sir.
I have found that one can not "educate" people that do not wish to be educated. The difference I see is that you say it will not make WoW numbers (be super popular), which I do not think anyone is saying. You can also not "educate" those that already know the info being presented.
But they do. Aren't *you* a "reasonable gamer" demanding that have instant gratification only?
Marketing... I am no expert in this field. I wonder which costs more, a TV ad or a YouTube ad? Another (besides YouTube) Internet site ad or a TV ad. I wonder which gets more traffic these days. Players seeking games know where to look. A well placed ad on this very site would not be overly expensive, I would guess, but could be wrong. Nearly 2.5 million registered people and lots of "lurkers" seeking info about MMORPGs. Marketing today is much cheaper, I am guessing, then it used to be due to the internet and the traffic on it.
When voice actors get about $100/minute, that adds up really fast.
You're essentially asking if I'm a reasonable gamer for demanding players only have fun. If you boiled down the purpose of gaming to one thing, it's fun (gratification.)
I don't claim to be an expert in marketing either, but I've seen/heard enough to be confident it's one of the higher costs of creating a successful game. As for channel specifics (tv/youtube/etc) I've heard video ads are much more expensive. That said, obviously this badass put together a video which is creative, artful, and perfectly fits the tone of his game. But it's just a youtube video which means it only got 32k hits from being quasi-viral, and that's actually pretty lousy reach, which is why the people saying video ads are more expensive are still generally correct.
Ads are cheap individually. This article claims the CPI of Android users was $1.06. CPI is cost per install which sells ads based on how many players end up installing the game. But with marketing you're balancing that cost against the expected revenue per user. This becomes tricky if you've created a very niche product. For example, day 30 retention (the number of players who install on day 0 and are still playing by day 30) would probably be lower than 7% for a niche product. (basing it off this random Quora answer for mobile games instead of anything I've specifically worked on.)
How the math works is that if you spent $530k dollars on 500k users, that at the end of the first month only 35k of those players are going to remain in-game. This means you need $15.14 income per user -- just to recoup those advertising costs. Numbers will definitely vary on the PC platform, but you can hopefully see how the idea of a niche MMORPG is a really really difficult problem.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. The OP has a small laundry list of features that are missing from today's MMORPG-esque genre of today. Is that so difficult to accept? Sure it is not YOUR opinion, because YOU have "your games."
What I find the most amusing, is definitely the antagonistic mobs that come out in order to attempt to make certain that such an MMORPG is not even considered to be made. These same people have "their games," what is their obsession with making sure a real MMORPG is not made? What is the psychology behind it? Where are the people making sure they have taken their meds?
What I find amusing is someone talking about people assuming comes out and assumes people are out to stop their games from being made. Maybe someone needs to take their meds. LMAO
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I'm sorry, whose idea of fun is the right one? You and Naru are the ones painting your way as the best way, while we just want some modern games to cater to us. Considering the "majority" of gamers as you put it already get the lion's share of MMOs, we're a large enough group to deserve at least a couple of new MMOs every few years that caters to us. You both act as if it would be the end of the genre if they tried catering to anyone else but you and those like you.
What? Where did I ever say my way is the best way. Where did I say please don't make games for these people. I'm pointing out the fact that the people you're trying to defend is telling the guy he can't JUST HAVE FUN. It's wrong for him to have fun the way he does. Please try again sir. I'd say learn to read. The hyprocisy is astounding.
And you know what? I truely hope they make games for the likes of you. It would make me a happy camper. I won't have to read all the whining that is constantly on this website but even if they did, you guys would still whine because even if they give exactly what you want, it's still not EQ.
Another thing, you want the games made the way you want? Support the games. Why did Vanguard die out? Because you didn't support it. Why did EQ change to the way it is now. Because you didnt support it. Why did Pantheon didn't get any backers. Because you didn't support. You feel the market you're in is big enough to be supported? Support the games that cater to you.
AAA companies arent dumb. They know where the market is. They know where the money is. It's definitely not an EQ remake. And please stop with the games being shallow because it's made for the masses. Your fun is not any better than the fun of others. You're idea of good doesn't make it better than anyone else.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
LMAO, please show me where I whine sir. The only whining I see is from all jaded fans (including you) that thinks their idea of how MMOs should be is better than anything else. I'm just calling you peeps out on your narrow minded BS. If that's whining, I'll keep on whining for sure. Too funny.
P.S. I've read some of your comments. You're the person that don't even read peoples comments and just go on a tangent. Freaking hillarious.
Please explain why you are here then, when the topic is obviously not to your liking? Your very style of writing screams whining and self-entitlement. One would think that you and Naru do nothing but go into threads about stuff you hate, just to bait those who like the things you don't.
I call people out for their BS, what's wrong with that? Please tell me how my style of writing screams whining and self entitlement. Where in any of my post did I exude self entitlement? Because I call you out on your BS? Because I point out how narrowminded you people are? You might want to learn the meaning of self entitlement and whining.
I could care less what you enjoy and talk about. What I have beef with is the blanket statements that you all make.
"All new games are crap because it's not to my liking"
"People that play these new games are sheeps and chimps"
"All new games are mediocre because they are made for the masses"
I could go on and on. You don't want me responding? Don't make stupid BS statements like you own the genre and think just because you played when the genre was new, your ideas of what these games are supposed to be are better than anyone else. Until then, I will keep on being here becuase you sir don't own these forums.
I have never even once ever said a single thing you have in quotes to anyone on this board. I have a respect for other people's likes and dislikes. What I don't respect is people who obviously don't like what I do, coming into a thread and turning what was a constructive discussion into a bait fest.
Narrow minded would mean we don't want any other games out there but ours. I certainly haven't dismissed your preferences, but merely desire to see mine represented better in the genre. Entitlement is shown when someone argues that their way is the best way, especially because it happens to be popular or relates to certain markets.
There is no best way, there is no market that doesn't deserve attention and what we collectively get tired of is an industry that tends to bandwagon, always chasing after some ephemeral masses when they could do so even more efficiently by targeting multiple markets and making tons of money from the combination. It just doesn't make business sense to leave certain groups behind or even ignored as they continue to chase after something that appears to not be working for them or we wouldn't see this constant under-performance of a lot of these new games for which I am certain this issue contributes to.
There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. The OP has a small laundry list of features that are missing from today's MMORPG-esque genre of today. Is that so difficult to accept? Sure it is not YOUR opinion, because YOU have "your games."
What I find the most amusing, is definitely the antagonistic mobs that come out in order to attempt to make certain that such an MMORPG is not even considered to be made. These same people have "their games," what is their obsession with making sure a real MMORPG is not made? What is the psychology behind it? Where are the people making sure they have taken their meds?
What I find amusing is someone talking about people assuming comes out and assumes people are out to stop their games from being made. Maybe someone needs to take their meds. LMAO
Speaking of complexes...
Bu seriously, what is your obsession in being opposed to an MMORPG with actual depth to it even being discussed?
For sure speaking of complexes......
Seriously, learn to read, what i'm opposed to is your BS that only your idea of an MMORPG is a REAL MMORPG with depth and the amusing fact that you think you're smarter and better than everyone because you play a game a certain way.
The mmorpg genre went mainstream, thats why its how it is. Its not going to change.
Modern mmorpg players have short attention spans. The things many of us enjoy would make most quit.
Wow that is soooooooooooooo true,i have said it many times,MOST of the players in these games should NOT be playing or even looking for rpg's,they should be playing arcade type single player games.
Now we have devs making rpg's that don't even play like a rpg or have rpg qualities and people are buying into those games,it really sets a bad precedent.
I have a memory that i will never forget because it just blew me away at how impatient gamer's are.I was in a group we were struggling because the healer was new didn't know how to make macros.So i was like no problem dude,i will spend whatever it takes to help you out.So i am PM this guys helping and he is understanding so all is goodwill just take 10 minutes or so for him to make his macros then test them on me to make sure they work.Well the group got so impatient they are like just boot him,so i am thinking wtf,how does that make things any better if we boot our healer lmao.I guess it is more than just short attention spans or impatience,it is also a lack of common sense.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I have found that one can not "educate" people that do not wish to be educated. The difference I see is that you say it will not make WoW numbers (be super popular), which I do not think anyone is saying. You can also not "educate" those that already know the info being presented.But they do. Aren't *you* a "reasonable gamer" demanding that have instant gratification only?Marketing... I am no expert in this field. I wonder which costs more, a TV ad or a YouTube ad? Another (besides YouTube) Internet site ad or a TV ad. I wonder which gets more traffic these days. Players seeking games know where to look. A well placed ad on this very site would not be overly expensive, I would guess, but could be wrong. Nearly 2.5 million registered people and lots of "lurkers" seeking info about MMORPGs. Marketing today is much cheaper, I am guessing, then it used to be due to the internet and the traffic on it.When voice actors get about $100/minute, that adds up really fast.
You're essentially asking if I'm a reasonable gamer for demanding players only have fun. If you boiled down the purpose of gaming to one thing, it's fun (gratification.)I don't claim to be an expert in marketing either, but I've seen/heard enough to be confident it's one of the higher costs of creating a successful game. As for channel specifics (tv/youtube/etc) I've heard video ads are much more expensive. That said, obviously this badass put together a video which is creative, artful, and perfectly fits the tone of his game. But it's just a youtube video which means it only got 32k hits from being quasi-viral, and that's actually pretty lousy reach, which is why the people saying video ads are more expensive are still generally correct.Ads are cheap individually. This article claims the CPI of Android users was $1.06. CPI is cost per install which sells ads based on how many players end up installing the game. But with marketing you're balancing that cost against the expected revenue per user. This becomes tricky if you've created a very niche product. For example, day 30 retention (the number of players who install on day 0 and are still playing by day 30) would probably be lower than 7% for a niche product. (basing it off this random Quora answer for mobile games instead of anything I've specifically worked on.) How the math works is that if you spent $530k dollars on 500k users, that at the end of the first month only 35k of those players are going to remain in-game. This means you need $15.14 income per user -- just to recoup those advertising costs. Numbers will definitely vary on the PC platform, but you can hopefully see how the idea of a niche MMORPG is a really really difficult problem.
I agree players should have "fun." But you seem to be saying only if their "fun" is the same as yours, or at least the most marketable.
I really enjoyed that YouTube video! Thanks for sharing that
Most of the rest is about mobile gaming, which I know is the latest fad and probably easier to find concrete numbers for. I have an attitude (possibly an incorrect one) that mobile games are like arcade games. You pump in quarters until you beat the game and then stop, maybe coming back every week or two to see if your initials are still in the top spots. I just do not imagine "mobile gaming" and "longevity" in the same vein, kind of like MMOs made today
I guess the "bottom line" is if a game is fun, then players will play it. I gave Sony over $700 in my 3 years of playing EQ and NCSoft well over $1500 in my 8 years playing CoH off and on. I was not alone in this. Those 2 games had no problems keeping me interested, playing, having fun, and most importantly, paying
Thank you, though, for the education. You are a much better "Google God" then I ever hope to be
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
But while I think all the hand wringing and pining is HILARIOUS, I do kind of miss the little things that've been stripped out of mmorpgs, the kind of things that added up to flesh out the game world. Non-combat fluff and the like. Not too keen on the fast travel trend either. I mean I'm not about to start a funeral procession for mmorpgs because of it but I agree that companies have lost sight of creating worlds in favor of flashy combos and casual friendliness.
Comments
LMAO PVP is not fun to me so I don't PVP. Very simple sir. Again I ask, is their something wrong with playing games for fun? Please tell me how that is erroneus. Seriously. You calling playing games for fun erroneous is quite erroneous.
http://taracrooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Beagle.jpg
weeee
Entire nostalgia thingie is just that.
Those are the things that bring MMORPGs to life. Its amazing how lifeless most current games are because their games are just a bunch of lifeless npcs that stand around and have no opinion on anything.
Pantheon Rise of the fallen is going to have like a dozen faction systems that apply to every facet of the game. Everything you do effects the way the world reacts to you.
Fantastic OP! Thanks alot for typing all that
Sums up exactly my view on the oldies vs the newer mmorpgs.
Deaths in newer MMO's have absolutely no concequence. In EQ you took care with everything you did and prepared well before heading on a journey, because the last thing you wanted was to do a corpse run.
Sometimes I just log into EQ or UO to check if old mates are online, or just to go for a walk along memory lane.
I see you guys whine about all sorts of things and what's even worse is that you whine on topics about games you don't or wouldn't even enjoy, how crazy is that?
AAA companies know that pursuing multiple markets is where it's at. What they haven't been willing to do so far is to break up their games to target niches so that they have a bevy of games that make them more money than one or two large ones can do with their watered down content.
You both make a lot of assumptions about what other posters do in their spare time, don't ya. I still play EQ on occasion and I played Vanguard till it shut down. I play Final Fantasy XIV, which is the closest thing to the older style we have right now. I'm even playing the Draenor content in WoW. I certainly don't appreciate you telling me what I have and have not done without any shred of evidence and using it as ammunition for your argument.
In regards to kickstarters, I have already backed both Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar (several hundred each) and once I get some more mad cash, I will consider Pantheon as well. Once again, you make incorrect assumptions to bolster your argument.
Great post OP
One of the problem's these days is 'time' and those who want the game to sacrifice to make up for their lack of time, we really needed an offshoot for such players, not modifying what an mmorpg used to be so that they can knock in an hour or two a week.
So over the years an mmorpg has become a pale shadow of what it once was so those who don't have time to play as they used to but want to level just as fast can play. Then ofcourse item wear etc takes up time and getting the money for repairs means repetition .. so that gets cut.
Don't have enough time to get in your old group .. no problem, just make game more solo friendly
Whereas it should have been, sorry you can't commit to the game as you used to, we understand if you leave and look forward to your return.
Oddly i think most those people who didn't have time .. would suddenly find enough time
LMAO, please show me where I whine sir. The only whining I see is from all jaded fans (including you) that thinks their idea of how MMOs should be is better than anything else. I'm just calling you peeps out on your narrow minded BS. If that's whining, I'll keep on whining for sure. Too funny.
P.S. I've read some of your comments. You're the person that don't even read peoples comments and just go on a tangent. Freaking hillarious.
What assumptions, it's a fact that Vanguard got shut down right? It's a fact that EQ changed in directions from when it first came out right? It's a fact Pantheon didn't get enough to back it's kick starter right? Why did all this happen? Because there wasn't enough support for them.
And you making up things I do on these forums just for the sake of your argument is ok how? Hyprocrisy.
Please explain why you are here then, when the topic is obviously not to your liking? Your very style of writing screams whining and self-entitlement. One would think that you and Naru do nothing but go into threads about stuff you hate, just to bait those who like the things you don't.
...and you accuse me of not reading before posting by taking my assumption comment out of context and attaching it to a completely different topic. The statement had nothing to do with the closing down or popularity of the games you listed.
I call people out for their BS, what's wrong with that? Please tell me how my style of writing screams whining and self entitlement. Where in any of my post did I exude self entitlement? Because I call you out on your BS? Because I point out how narrowminded you people are? You might want to learn the meaning of self entitlement and whining.
I could care less what you enjoy and talk about. What I have beef with is the blanket statements that you all make.
"All new games are crap because it's not to my liking"
"People that play these new games are sheeps and chimps"
"All new games are mediocre because they are made for the masses"
I could go on and on. You don't want me responding? Don't make stupid BS statements like you own the genre and think just because you played when the genre was new, your ideas of what these games are supposed to be are better than anyone else. Until then, I will keep on being here becuase you sir don't own these forums.
Because it's a fact. I've read some of your comments and instead of responding to said comment you go on some wild tangent. There's no assumption there good sir.
You're essentially asking if I'm a reasonable gamer for demanding players only have fun. If you boiled down the purpose of gaming to one thing, it's fun (gratification.)
I don't claim to be an expert in marketing either, but I've seen/heard enough to be confident it's one of the higher costs of creating a successful game. As for channel specifics (tv/youtube/etc) I've heard video ads are much more expensive. That said, obviously this badass put together a video which is creative, artful, and perfectly fits the tone of his game. But it's just a youtube video which means it only got 32k hits from being quasi-viral, and that's actually pretty lousy reach, which is why the people saying video ads are more expensive are still generally correct.
Ads are cheap individually. This article claims the CPI of Android users was $1.06. CPI is cost per install which sells ads based on how many players end up installing the game. But with marketing you're balancing that cost against the expected revenue per user. This becomes tricky if you've created a very niche product. For example, day 30 retention (the number of players who install on day 0 and are still playing by day 30) would probably be lower than 7% for a niche product. (basing it off this random Quora answer for mobile games instead of anything I've specifically worked on.)
How the math works is that if you spent $530k dollars on 500k users, that at the end of the first month only 35k of those players are going to remain in-game. This means you need $15.14 income per user -- just to recoup those advertising costs. Numbers will definitely vary on the PC platform, but you can hopefully see how the idea of a niche MMORPG is a really really difficult problem.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What I find amusing is someone talking about people assuming comes out and assumes people are out to stop their games from being made. Maybe someone needs to take their meds. LMAO
I have never even once ever said a single thing you have in quotes to anyone on this board. I have a respect for other people's likes and dislikes. What I don't respect is people who obviously don't like what I do, coming into a thread and turning what was a constructive discussion into a bait fest.
Narrow minded would mean we don't want any other games out there but ours. I certainly haven't dismissed your preferences, but merely desire to see mine represented better in the genre. Entitlement is shown when someone argues that their way is the best way, especially because it happens to be popular or relates to certain markets.
There is no best way, there is no market that doesn't deserve attention and what we collectively get tired of is an industry that tends to bandwagon, always chasing after some ephemeral masses when they could do so even more efficiently by targeting multiple markets and making tons of money from the combination. It just doesn't make business sense to leave certain groups behind or even ignored as they continue to chase after something that appears to not be working for them or we wouldn't see this constant under-performance of a lot of these new games for which I am certain this issue contributes to.
For sure speaking of complexes......
Seriously, learn to read, what i'm opposed to is your BS that only your idea of an MMORPG is a REAL MMORPG with depth and the amusing fact that you think you're smarter and better than everyone because you play a game a certain way.
The mmorpg genre went mainstream, thats why its how it is. Its not going to change.
Modern mmorpg players have short attention spans. The things many of us enjoy would make most quit.
Wow that is soooooooooooooo true,i have said it many times,MOST of the players in these games should NOT be playing or even looking for rpg's,they should be playing arcade type single player games.
Now we have devs making rpg's that don't even play like a rpg or have rpg qualities and people are buying into those games,it really sets a bad precedent.
I have a memory that i will never forget because it just blew me away at how impatient gamer's are.I was in a group we were struggling because the healer was new didn't know how to make macros.So i was like no problem dude,i will spend whatever it takes to help you out.So i am PM this guys helping and he is understanding so all is goodwill just take 10 minutes or so for him to make his macros then test them on me to make sure they work.Well the group got so impatient they are like just boot him,so i am thinking wtf,how does that make things any better if we boot our healer lmao.I guess it is more than just short attention spans or impatience,it is also a lack of common sense.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I really enjoyed that YouTube video! Thanks for sharing that
Most of the rest is about mobile gaming, which I know is the latest fad and probably easier to find concrete numbers for. I have an attitude (possibly an incorrect one) that mobile games are like arcade games. You pump in quarters until you beat the game and then stop, maybe coming back every week or two to see if your initials are still in the top spots. I just do not imagine "mobile gaming" and "longevity" in the same vein, kind of like MMOs made today
I guess the "bottom line" is if a game is fun, then players will play it. I gave Sony over $700 in my 3 years of playing EQ and NCSoft well over $1500 in my 8 years playing CoH off and on. I was not alone in this. Those 2 games had no problems keeping me interested, playing, having fun, and most importantly, paying
Thank you, though, for the education. You are a much better "Google God" then I ever hope to be
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Entertainment is the only reason for the games existence on my computer. When it isn't fun i stop playing.
It's the swan song of the gaming elderly.
But while I think all the hand wringing and pining is HILARIOUS, I do kind of miss the little things that've been stripped out of mmorpgs, the kind of things that added up to flesh out the game world. Non-combat fluff and the like. Not too keen on the fast travel trend either. I mean I'm not about to start a funeral procession for mmorpgs because of it but I agree that companies have lost sight of creating worlds in favor of flashy combos and casual friendliness.