If by "niche" you mean numbers below WoW numbers, then every MMORPG should have a really difficult problem. The so called "niche" in this case is likely over 500k, which last I recall, are pretty good numbers.
Have you had your eyes open at all for the last 10 years? Low-end MMORPGs do have really difficult problems! They either go F2P (where they can surpass that $15/mo per player avg) or they go out of business, or they're not content-driven games (EVE) so they can get away with taking players money with a small dev team.
For niche MMORPGs, sub-600k players seems about right. I mean, in this very thread it was pointed out that the highest subscribers EQ1 ever announced was around 450k.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by GeezerGamer "I remember when you had to actually go somewhere when you wanted to actually do something."
"85% of the people travel someplace they've already been. Where's the fun in that?"
For that, throw in maybe 2 classes of players that do have teleport abilities (like EQ's Druids and Wizards). Now, you have the very limited ability to fast travel to specified points, but have to go through another player in order to do so, not simply everyone clicking on a point on their map.
This creates player interaction and reasons why it is a multiple player online game
Maybe I should refine my point to "unlimited fast travel sucks."
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Just about everything you listed in your post was the same for me, but it was with FFXI. Some of the older MMOs just had features that made the game more community based and fun. We don't need to have our Twitter feed linked inside a game or Facebook to make it more community and social!
Leave the Twits and Faceys for the real world! We want immersion into a fantasy world where it can be shared with others that want to be a part of that world.
You forget what playerbase you are attempting to bs here, we do not like shallow, empty, instant gratification, "fun" games. We like MMORPGs. MMORPGs have depth, meaning, strategy (besides zerging which you are used to these days), and intellectual aspects.
I turn nothing. You see through nothing because of your narrow minded self. I've been straight from the start. You make BS statements, i'll call you out on it. Nothing more nothing less.
And look at the highlighted. You just did what i've been pointing out in this whole thread. You like to call these games shallow, empty, instant gratification MMORPGs with no depth when it's your problem alone. There are many people that don't think they are shallow, empty, instant gratification, fun games without depth but you can't see that can't you? Becusa you're so narrow minded and full of yourself that you can't see pass your nose that other people see things differently from you. This good sir is MY POINT.
No, I do think you have confused "things you can not comprehend," with "must be narrow minded and looks down nose at others." Opening your mind, would allow you to see that "your point," is due to the very thing you have chosen to accuse me of.
LMAO, i'm confused about nothing. I comprehend just fine. And I accuse you of nothing you haven't done. It's all in your comments. And you certainly can't see pass your nose to COMPREHEND my point.
There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. The OP has a small laundry list of features that are missing from today's MMORPG-esque genre of today. Is that so difficult to accept? Sure it is not YOUR opinion, because YOU have "your games."
What I find the most amusing, is definitely the antagonistic mobs that come out in order to attempt to make certain that such an MMORPG is not even considered to be made. These same people have "their games," what is their obsession with making sure a real MMORPG is not made? What is the psychology behind it? Where are the people making sure they have taken their meds?
What I find amusing is someone talking about people assuming comes out and assumes people are out to stop their games from being made. Maybe someone needs to take their meds. LMAO
Speaking of complexes...
Bu seriously, what is your obsession in being opposed to an MMORPG with actual depth to it even being discussed?
I like how you keep saying "a real MMORPG" and "MMORPG with actual depth". Which implies that the games played by others, who according to you have taken the holy mission to make sure your MMO is not made, are not real MMOs or do not have any depth.
Condescending much?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I just never enjoyed EQ. It felt mindnumbingly boring. As you said combat was dull as hell and just couldn't put up with it. This was particularly ironic because the way to progress was to grind mobs till the end of time.
a great community is always good to have and if EQ community was good okay, I have no idea, I couldn't get past all the other shortcomings. However when playing lotro I found he community to be great which made the game much more enjoyable.
The world immersion you were referring to, I have experienced in other MMOs. I think a lot of EQ people love EQ because it was their first mmo. This also happens with people who started with other MMOs, e.g. Wow. However EQ fans act all dismissive as if they are the only ones who are allowed to be biased towards their first mmo.
Obviously you never played an Enchanter or Cleric. As an Enchanter with a Monk friend in EQ1 from around Kunark forward, I experienced alot more than 'dull' combat. If you think that exciting combat is PVP when you can respawn almost instantly with all of your gear and only what 5-10% gear degrade? Not much risk there or excitement. Well, let me tell you, there are places in EQ that took a while just to get to IF no one died and if they did you waited and tempted fate until your dead member returned, if he was able to get through. Usually it was another death involving just dying near the group to get rezzed.
An Enchanter was...busy. Buffing comrades with haste for the meleers and mana for the casters as well as other things. And also CC. Now maybe you think doing CC is easy but one 'no assist' hit on a mezzed mob before a mem blur and your enchanter who might have 2 to 4 mobs mezzed at once is going to be in trouble. Thus, everyone in the group also, is in trouble. One missed CH, one fizzle by the Cleric to the MT and the same result occurred. Most games I've played since has barely gotten my blood pumping or my hands sweaty PVP or PVE. Reward without the risk is what games are like now. The more PVP orientated MMORPGs are, the less I am interested in them and I like games that force me to think, to be patient, to be attentive and to be good at what I'm doing. When everyone, every toon can play every roll badly and still succeed how is that exciting? Yeah there wasn't alot of games when EQ1 came out but I played it 9+ years and a popular EMU 4 more for the same game. I am an adrenaline junkie after all. Rift? AA? AoC? (To name 3) BORING as hell. I call games like those 3 month chucks. You play them for 3 months because you can max two toons in that time and die maybe less than 5x. No risk, to much reward and they are great because what? Twitch or cursor targeting? Really? Pfft!
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I just never enjoyed EQ. It felt mindnumbingly boring. As you said combat was dull as hell and just couldn't put up with it. This was particularly ironic because the way to progress was to grind mobs till the end of time.
a great community is always good to have and if EQ community was good okay, I have no idea, I couldn't get past all the other shortcomings. However when playing lotro I found he community to be great which made the game much more enjoyable.
The world immersion you were referring to, I have experienced in other MMOs. I think a lot of EQ people love EQ because it was their first mmo. This also happens with people who started with other MMOs, e.g. Wow. However EQ fans act all dismissive as if they are the only ones who are allowed to be biased towards their first mmo.
Obviously you never played an Enchanter or Cleric. As an Enchanter with a Monk friend in EQ1 from around Kunark forward, I experienced alot more than 'dull' combat. If you think that exciting combat is PVP when you can respawn almost instantly with all of your gear and only what 5-10% gear degrade? Not much risk there or excitement. Well, let me tell you, there are places in EQ that took a while just to get to IF no one died and if they did you waited and tempted fate until your dead member returned, if he was able to get through. Usually it was another death involving just dying near the group to get rezzed.
An Enchanter was...busy. Buffing comrades with haste for the meleers and mana for the casters as well as other things. And also CC. Now maybe you think doing CC is easy but one 'no assist' hit on a mezzed mob before a mem blur and your enchanter who might have 2 to 4 mobs mezzed at once is going to be in trouble. Thus, everyone in the group also, is in trouble. One missed CH, one fizzle by the Cleric to the MT and the same result occurred. Most games I've played since has barely gotten my blood pumping or my hands sweaty PVP or PVE. Reward without the risk is what games are like now. The more PVP orientated MMORPGs are, the less I am interested in them and I like games that force me to think, to be patient, to be attentive and to be good at what I'm doing. When everyone, every toon can play every roll badly and still succeed how is that exciting? Yeah there wasn't alot of games when EQ1 came out but I played it 9+ years and a popular EMU 4 more for the same game. I am an adrenaline junkie after all. Rift? AA? AoC? (To name 3) BORING as hell. I call games like those 3 month chucks. You play them for 3 months because you can max two toons in that time and die maybe less than 5x. No risk, to much reward and they are great because what? Twitch or cursor targeting? Really? Pfft!
I read about the Enchanter class in EQ years after I tried the game. I can't remember if that class was there when I played, it probably was but I didn't do much research into classses just went for what sounded best to me (my mistake). As I didn't play EQ that much all I remember was that I played some kind of melee class and there was to it was autoattacking.
However, I recently was considering playing classic EQ again (obviously it's not 100% percent representation of the game) and after some research into classes I found that the enchanter is in fact a class which I would enjoy very much and was what I decided to play. I still haven't got around to trying it out though due to certain technical issues I am having.
I wasn't expecting any kind of PvP mechanics. My best MMO experience didn't involve much PvPing not until much later. I did try to "relive" that epic experience I had with the first MMO that "clicked" for me and it felt really nostalgic. Unfortunately the idea of spending 10-20 days /played was too much for me to invest that kind of time on that kind of server. Ultimately the sense of wonder was not there because I now know everything about that game. There is no sense of exploration as I have spent thousands of hours exploring that world and there wasn't much left for me even with the all nostalgic "classic/vanilla" feel of it.
So I thought maybe I will try classic EQ to see if that sense of exploration is there too as it ultimately inspired my all time favourite MMO.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
Another big thing from EQ that wasn't mentioned here is the faction system. Having groups or individuals like or hate you depending on many factors from your race, to your choices made via quests, to what and who you've killed made a great dynamic in creating a "real" world. I mean who remembers running through a zone only to suddenly have some NPC come chasing after you that hates your guts, or had to do a lot of quests and/or killing of specific targets to get really good faction with an NPC that would then give you a quest that is otherwise unavailable to the masses because they trust you so much. More games of this type need a system like this to help make it feel more like the NPCs are more than just static models with a boring static wall of text (if that) regardless of who you are or what you do. Choices in the game should matter and affect more things than just giving you a reward and some exp. to keep the leveling train moving.
I just never enjoyed EQ. It felt mindnumbingly boring. As you said combat was dull as hell and just couldn't put up with it. This was particularly ironic because the way to progress was to grind mobs till the end of time.
a great community is always good to have and if EQ community was good okay, I have no idea, I couldn't get past all the other shortcomings. However when playing lotro I found he community to be great which made the game much more enjoyable.
The world immersion you were referring to, I have experienced in other MMOs. I think a lot of EQ people love EQ because it was their first mmo. This also happens with people who started with other MMOs, e.g. Wow. However EQ fans act all dismissive as if they are the only ones who are allowed to be biased towards their first mmo.
Obviously you never played an Enchanter or Cleric. As an Enchanter with a Monk friend in EQ1 from around Kunark forward, I experienced alot more than 'dull' combat. If you think that exciting combat is PVP when you can respawn almost instantly with all of your gear and only what 5-10% gear degrade? Not much risk there or excitement. Well, let me tell you, there are places in EQ that took a while just to get to IF no one died and if they did you waited and tempted fate until your dead member returned, if he was able to get through. Usually it was another death involving just dying near the group to get rezzed.
An Enchanter was...busy. Buffing comrades with haste for the meleers and mana for the casters as well as other things. And also CC. Now maybe you think doing CC is easy but one 'no assist' hit on a mezzed mob before a mem blur and your enchanter who might have 2 to 4 mobs mezzed at once is going to be in trouble. Thus, everyone in the group also, is in trouble. One missed CH, one fizzle by the Cleric to the MT and the same result occurred. Most games I've played since has barely gotten my blood pumping or my hands sweaty PVP or PVE. Reward without the risk is what games are like now. The more PVP orientated MMORPGs are, the less I am interested in them and I like games that force me to think, to be patient, to be attentive and to be good at what I'm doing. When everyone, every toon can play every roll badly and still succeed how is that exciting? Yeah there wasn't alot of games when EQ1 came out but I played it 9+ years and a popular EMU 4 more for the same game. I am an adrenaline junkie after all. Rift? AA? AoC? (To name 3) BORING as hell. I call games like those 3 month chucks. You play them for 3 months because you can max two toons in that time and die maybe less than 5x. No risk, to much reward and they are great because what? Twitch or cursor targeting? Really? Pfft!
I read about the Enchanter class in EQ years after I tried the game. I can't remember if that class was there when I played, it probably was but I didn't do much research into classses just went for what sounded best to me (my mistake). As I didn't play EQ that much all I remember was that I played some kind of melee class and there was to it was autoattacking.
However, I recently was considering playing classic EQ again (obviously it's not 100% percent representation of the game) and after some research into classes I found that the enchanter is in fact a class which I would enjoy very much and was what I decided to play. I still haven't got around to trying it out though due to certain technical issues I am having.
I wasn't expecting any kind of PvP mechanics. My best MMO experience didn't involve much PvPing not until much later. I did try to "relive" that epic experience I had with the first MMO that "clicked" for me and it felt really nostalgic. Unfortunately the idea of spending 10-20 days /played was too much for me to invest that kind of time on that kind of server. Ultimately the sense of wonder was not there because I now know everything about that game. There is no sense of exploration as I have spent thousands of hours exploring that world and there wasn't much left for me even with the all nostalgic "classic/vanilla" feel of it.
So I thought maybe I will try classic EQ to see if that sense of exploration is there too as it ultimately inspired my all time favourite MMO.
Well I honestly wish we could have found one another at some point. EQ1, the only really boring classes I found were the Tanks. Rogues were ALOT of fun, especially during corpse runs in very dangerous places. And backstab to much and die. "Honey...get me a towel!" Bards are a blast to play, Wizards (AOE much!) also and Druids. Necro's are a bit slower but man can they solo. A monk is always busy as well. Shamans are a hoot also a great soloer. I would say Tanks and Clerics were my least favorite but as a fighter you watch your health get lower and lower and lower...not exciting but can be stressful. A cleric fizzle is truly something to behold, especially in a healing circle. Rangers didn't come into their own to much later but lets face it, tracking just rocked.
I tried Asherons Call and Asherons Call 2 as well as so many other games but even those still didn't have that...something, that EQ had. Or has if I just logon again. Running for your life through Highpass, Getting spotted by the Undead in Kithicor Forest. Faction that actually mattered and was hell to regain if you destroyed it. No cash shops.
If I had negatives about EQ they would be the bottlenecks for endgame zone keys and epic items. I do feel that these could have been instanced to avoid unnecessary bottlenecking and spawn locks. But the rest? The open world and Regular Dungeons were first come, first served...or first deaded.
Edit: Its not Nostalgia, because I've played just about everything for a short time before I just went back for a while. When everything is instanced, there is no communication, no cooperation, no feeling of community. When bad players or characters were called out, people remembered who they were. Sure there are a$$hats in every game but you still got through it, leveled and raided and needed a towel to wipe the sweat off your brow every once in a while. When you don't care about your character, what happens to them or death in general, there is far less connection or concern for your comrades. And thats what we are really talking about. You can play, have no emotional attachment, pwn then move onto the next thing. Very sad.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
Instant travel makes it so that you don't have to plan ahead or logoff where you need to be the day before or spend that extra few minutes getting a bind. Again another convenience that really makes a world seem very small and the community feel even smaller.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
Instant travel makes it so that you don't have to plan ahead or logoff where you need to be the day before or spend that extra few minutes getting a bind. Again another convenience that really makes a world seem very small and the community feel even smaller.
This is one of the reasons why, others and myself concluded on making fast travel a rare or expensive method of transportation. But I am sure many, like myself; are growing bored of this particular subject by now.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Originally posted by Zen_Blade Another big thing from EQ that wasn't mentioned here is the faction system. Having groups or individuals like or hate you depending on many factors from your race, to your choices made via quests, to what and who you've killed made a great dynamic in creating a "real" world. I mean who remembers running through a zone only to suddenly have some NPC come chasing after you that hates your guts, or had to do a lot of quests and/or killing of specific targets to get really good faction with an NPC that would then give you a quest that is otherwise unavailable to the masses because they trust you so much. More games of this type need a system like this to help make it feel more like the NPCs are more than just static models with a boring static wall of text (if that) regardless of who you are or what you do. Choices in the game should matter and affect more things than just giving you a reward and some exp. to keep the leveling train moving.
There was an NPC Kazdean Gix in East Commonlands I think and a Dragoon in West Commonlands. Gix would fear you and whack you on the back. Then his pet would also whack you on the back. There's not to much scarier then having no control where your character is going, not being sure exactly where you are going, seeing you are running towards mobs that might agro you, and having a nasty dark elf whacking you on the back. Dragoon Zytl was also a pain. Ambassador DVinn was sucked too. Those Dark elves really were nasty folk in EQ. Just as they are depicted in fantasy books.
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
When did I say it was wrong or right? I didn't say either one was right or wrong, I said it was the wrong way to look at it. I did say its wrong to create ridiculous labels like "forced grouping" or "lacking player freedom" because someone doesn't agree with a game's mechanics or a player's opinion. Its a design decision, if people don't like it they work around it or don't play. If someone has a something constructive to say, they won't make passive-aggressive remarks like "forced grouping" or play the victim card and cry, "You're limiting my freedom!" Most likely, its there for a reason.
This boils down to player freedom vs immersion for me. I commented on this issue earlier, but did not get into enough detail. Seeking a mage for instant transportation does encourage player interaction, and immersion to some level. But ultimately takes away individual player freedom. If it were say, a craftable item that could only be produced through limited resources, (which would automatically make it expensive) by a magic user; then anyone could use it. I realize, a auction house would get rid of most of the player interaction with this method though, hence the original statement.
I do agree that limiting the amount of places you can fast travel to, is a good idea. This restricts freedom, but for (in my opinion) good reasons. And allowing magic users the ability to fast travel without said item, would just be another bonus for wielders of that art.
I understand the point of view, and generally agree. I enjoy player freedom, too. But sometimes, I get really sick of the "player freedom" mantra. Why should everyone be able to do everything? Where are the differences? Is the only difference going to be character models?
"Player freedom" is just another one of those passive aggressive terms that people throw around to shame you into changing your position on something.
Just like "forced grouping".
Pay no mind to that bull feces.
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
When did I say it was wrong or right? I didn't say either one was right or wrong, I said it was the wrong way to look at it. I did say its wrong to create ridiculous labels like "forced grouping" or "lacking player freedom" because someone doesn't agree with a game's mechanics or a player's opinion. Its a design decision, if people don't like it they work around it or don't play. If someone has a something constructive to say, they won't make passive-aggressive remarks like "forced grouping" or play the victim card and cry, "You're limiting my freedom!" Most likely, its there for a reason.
I suppose the real question to ask here is "should, or should not, a feature be included in a MMORPG?". Can fast travel be put in a MMORPG? Yes. But asking if fast travel should be put in a MMORPG, is a entirely different can of worms. One of which, I feel no need to find a answer to. That is for the Devs and creators to decide. All I can say, is that in my opinion, generally the more features a game has, the more freedom players have. Your not going to change my opinion on this.
I did not have the time to add this, so I am adding it now: I will not get into a debate with you, over varying levels of freedom. As this is opinion based.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Originally posted by Zen_Blade Another big thing from EQ that wasn't mentioned here is the faction system. Having groups or individuals like or hate you depending on many factors from your race, to your choices made via quests, to what and who you've killed made a great dynamic in creating a "real" world. I mean who remembers running through a zone only to suddenly have some NPC come chasing after you that hates your guts, or had to do a lot of quests and/or killing of specific targets to get really good faction with an NPC that would then give you a quest that is otherwise unavailable to the masses because they trust you so much. More games of this type need a system like this to help make it feel more like the NPCs are more than just static models with a boring static wall of text (if that) regardless of who you are or what you do. Choices in the game should matter and affect more things than just giving you a reward and some exp. to keep the leveling train moving.
There was an NPC Kazdean Gix in East Commonlands I think and a Dragoon in West Commonlands. Gix would fear you and whack you on the back. Then his pet would also whack you on the back. There's not to much scarier then having no control where your character is going, not being sure exactly where you are going, seeing you are running towards mobs that might agro you, and having a nasty dark elf whacking you on the back. Dragoon Zytl was also a pain. Ambassador DVinn was sucked too. Those Dark elves really were nasty folk in EQ. Just as they are depicted in fantasy books.
Factions are a huge part of creating a virtual world, and a huge short-coming of many modern mmorpgs. I actually mentioned this in a thread yesterday.
Without factions, worlds become lifeless. There is no story or purpose behind many npcs. In EQ, you constantly had to consider people around you to determine whether they were hostile. Most games have relegated this to flagging mobs aggressive or passive usually based on whether you are on Team A or Team B. No other underlying motivations that determine what an npc does. Everquest had racial factions, city factions, class factions, deity faction and all of them regarded other factions differently. Whether people know it or not, factions played a huge role in giving Everquest that immersive feel that the world was a cloth of many threads.
Crafting Factions (Different types of factions allowing you to learn new recipes)
Player Factions (Faction points incorporated into gameplay somehow)
Animal Factions (Animals can be hostile to each other (and players) in the world and attack depending on faction status, e.g. Wolf randomly attacking a Rabbit if within aggro range)
Royal Faction (Heads of states or lands like Kings, Queens etc. for specialty factions)
Sphere Faction (Earning reputation/faction for Adventuring, Crafting or Harvesting etc, becoming known for your preferred play style)
Class Faction (Earning class faction for melee, ranged, spell, healing or tanking etc. to earn reputation in those fields)
Mount Faction (Earning skill or reputation for looking after/becoming more experienced in mount handling, riding etc.)
Pet Faction (Earning skill or reputation for looking after/becoming more experienced in pet handling/raising etc.)
General Factions (Earning skill, reputation or faction in a number of general groups/areas of the game.
Other:
I'm pretty excited to see that Pantheon is being built the same way.
I suppose the real question to ask here is "should, or should not, a feature be included in a MMORPG?". Can fast travel be put in a MMORPG? Yes. But asking if fast travel should be put in a MMORPG, is a entirely different can of worms. One of which, I feel no need to find a answer to. That is for the Devs and creators to decide. All I can say, is that in my opinion, generally the more features a game has, the more freedom players have. Your not going to change my opinion on this.
Exactly. I'm not trying to change your mind, one way or the other.
I will say I like an open world without fast travel permitted the world (and its zones/areas) has the necessary content to make traveling through it interesting.
Fast travel in EQ was really only limited to low levels. It was designed that way so players would experience the world, sort of the way games used to restrict players from using mounts until higher levels. By the time most players were 50+ they were either grouping or raiding with porters or had many of them on their /friends list.
You forget what playerbase you are attempting to bs here, we do not like shallow, empty, instant gratification, "fun" games. We like MMORPGs. MMORPGs have depth, meaning, strategy (besides zerging which you are used to these days), and intellectual aspects.
I turn nothing. You see through nothing because of your narrow minded self. I've been straight from the start. You make BS statements, i'll call you out on it. Nothing more nothing less.
And look at the highlighted. You just did what i've been pointing out in this whole thread. You like to call these games shallow, empty, instant gratification MMORPGs with no depth when it's your problem alone. There are many people that don't think they are shallow, empty, instant gratification, fun games without depth but you can't see that can't you? Becusa you're so narrow minded and full of yourself that you can't see pass your nose that other people see things differently from you. This good sir is MY POINT.
No, I do think you have confused "things you can not comprehend," with "must be narrow minded and looks down nose at others." Opening your mind, would allow you to see that "your point," is due to the very thing you have chosen to accuse me of.
LMAO, i'm confused about nothing. I comprehend just fine. And I accuse you of nothing you haven't done. It's all in your comments. And you certainly can't see pass your nose to COMPREHEND my point.
Your point? Why do I actually get the feeling that "your point," somehow has to do with money? Why do I get the feeling that "your point," is not from the perspective of a player? Unless of course, "this in and of itself" is the game you prefer? Unless "this in and of itself," is "your point"?
Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by Enbysra
There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. The OP has a small laundry list of features that are missing from today's MMORPG-esque genre of today. Is that so difficult to accept? Sure it is not YOUR opinion, because YOU have "your games."
What I find the most amusing, is definitely the antagonistic mobs that come out in order to attempt to make certain that such an MMORPG is not even considered to be made. These same people have "their games," what is their obsession with making sure a real MMORPG is not made? What is the psychology behind it? Where are the people making sure they have taken their meds?
What I find amusing is someone talking about people assuming comes out and assumes people are out to stop their games from being made. Maybe someone needs to take their meds. LMAO
Speaking of complexes...
But seriously, what is your obsession in being opposed to an MMORPG with actual depth to it even being discussed?
I like how you keep saying "a real MMORPG" and "MMORPG with actual depth". Which implies that the games played by others, who according to you have taken the holy mission to make sure your MMO is not made, are not real MMOs or do not have any depth.
Condescending much?
"According to me" when there are clearly more people stating the exact same thing in general, right from the OP mind you. Implies nothing... MAKE A SINGLE MMORPG SUCH AS IS BEING CALLED FOR.
Is that too difficult to comprehend? "Condescending" is from the perspective of those whom somehow feel as if what is being asked for is condescending. Plenty of people throughout this thread have stated the exact same thing as I have, not once did their words come across as condescending to me. If the statement made of wanting an intelligent MMORPG comes across as condescending, perhaps you and a few others ought to ask yourselves why that is?
Don't you all have some bunny hop P2W lobby mmo game to play? They must be great, given you are here worried about a group of players that is not apparently allowed to have the type of game they have asked for. If we had such an MMORPG, you can be certain we would not be here making certain you did not get heard... we would have better things to do...
Bunny hop p2w lobby mmo? And you say you are not condescending? I will go on and hop on to play my p2w mmo, ooh wait I don't play p2w MMOs. Sorry.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Zen_Blade Another big thing from EQ that wasn't mentioned here is the faction system. Having groups or individuals like or hate you depending on many factors from your race, to your choices made via quests, to what and who you've killed made a great dynamic in creating a "real" world. I mean who remembers running through a zone only to suddenly have some NPC come chasing after you that hates your guts, or had to do a lot of quests and/or killing of specific targets to get really good faction with an NPC that would then give you a quest that is otherwise unavailable to the masses because they trust you so much. More games of this type need a system like this to help make it feel more like the NPCs are more than just static models with a boring static wall of text (if that) regardless of who you are or what you do. Choices in the game should matter and affect more things than just giving you a reward and some exp. to keep the leveling train moving.
There was an NPC Kazdean Gix in East Commonlands I think and a Dragoon in West Commonlands. Gix would fear you and whack you on the back. Then his pet would also whack you on the back. There's not to much scarier then having no control where your character is going, not being sure exactly where you are going, seeing you are running towards mobs that might agro you, and having a nasty dark elf whacking you on the back. Dragoon Zytl was also a pain. Ambassador DVinn was sucked too. Those Dark elves really were nasty folk in EQ. Just as they are depicted in fantasy books.
Factions are a huge part of creating a virtual world, and a huge short-coming of many modern mmorpgs. I actually mentioned this in a thread yesterday.
Without factions, worlds become lifeless. There is no story or purpose behind many npcs. In EQ, you constantly had to consider people around you to determine whether they were hostile. Most games have relegated this to flagging mobs aggressive or passive usually based on whether you are on Team A or Team B. No other underlying motivations that determine what an npc does. Everquest had racial factions, city factions, class factions, deity faction and all of them regarded other factions differently. Whether people know it or not, factions played a huge role in giving Everquest that immersive feel that the world was a cloth of many threads.
Crafting Factions (Different types of factions allowing you to learn new recipes)
Player Factions (Faction points incorporated into gameplay somehow)
Animal Factions (Animals can be hostile to each other (and players) in the world and attack depending on faction status, e.g. Wolf randomly attacking a Rabbit if within aggro range)
Royal Faction (Heads of states or lands like Kings, Queens etc. for specialty factions)
Sphere Faction (Earning reputation/faction for Adventuring, Crafting or Harvesting etc, becoming known for your preferred play style)
Class Faction (Earning class faction for melee, ranged, spell, healing or tanking etc. to earn reputation in those fields)
Mount Faction (Earning skill or reputation for looking after/becoming more experienced in mount handling, riding etc.)
Pet Faction (Earning skill or reputation for looking after/becoming more experienced in pet handling/raising etc.)
General Factions (Earning skill, reputation or faction in a number of general groups/areas of the game.
Other:
I'm pretty excited to see that Pantheon is being built the same way.
I like all those factions except I'm not certain if I like the idea of having a reputation for being good at x. I take faction to mean what you believe in more then anything. It's likely that choosing a certain classes would almost be like choosing to believe in certain things that exist in the world. If you choose to be a Ranger that worships Tunare (or something of that nature) you would likely believe in helping the innocent, loving nature, exploring. Likewise you would be against those who are opposed to those core beliefs. It is all intertwined together.
One of the problem's these days is 'time' and those who want the game to sacrifice to make up for their lack of time, we really needed an offshoot for such players, not modifying what an mmorpg used to be so that they can knock in an hour or two a week.
So over the years an mmorpg has become a pale shadow of what it once was so those who don't have time to play as they used to but want to level just as fast can play. Then ofcourse item wear etc takes up time and getting the money for repairs means repetition .. so that gets cut.
Don't have enough time to get in your old group .. no problem, just make game more solo friendly
Whereas it should have been, sorry you can't commit to the game as you used to, we understand if you leave and look forward to your return.
Oddly i think most those people who didn't have time .. would suddenly find enough time
What's even funnier (not in a "ha ha" way... but rather in a sad way), is that the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction, that people can level up faster than they ever could have even if they had all the time in the world to play. You practically have to be standing around doing nothing to not level up in MMOs anymore. XP is thrown around like rice at a wedding for just about anything you can imagine doing.
Don't even get me started on the whole "I'm a grown-up with a family and a career, and I don't have as much time as I used to, so the genre needs to change to cater to my personal circumstances. Because I'm a special snowflake" That's just pure, unfiltered, unmitigated, run-away, self-entitlement on steroids. If ever there was a textbook example of someone wanting to have their cake, and eat it, too... look no further than the self-important egomaniacs spewing that nonsense as though it were a valid argument.
Not to mention... there were people playing EQ1, FFXI, AC1 and others who had families, careers, etc. They played, and they had fun. They just had their feet on the ground, and level heads on their shoulders. They realized that if "Goal A" in "Game B" required more time than they had available, then the rational thing to do was adjust their expectations accordingly. Suggest that to some folks these days, and they'll look at you like you asked them to breathe through their big toe.
Comments
Have you had your eyes open at all for the last 10 years? Low-end MMORPGs do have really difficult problems! They either go F2P (where they can surpass that $15/mo per player avg) or they go out of business, or they're not content-driven games (EVE) so they can get away with taking players money with a small dev team.
For niche MMORPGs, sub-600k players seems about right. I mean, in this very thread it was pointed out that the highest subscribers EQ1 ever announced was around 450k.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Perceived player freedom", Is a important part of MMOs, albeit only one of many to consider; but no less vital. I was not trying to shame anyone. He presented a point of view on the issue, and I offered another one; while giving my reasons for seeing this issue the way I do. And as I hinted at earlier, thank goodness I am not being paid to try and balance all these concepts(in a attempt to attract as many players as possible), and at the same time; keep everything from becoming mediocre. He and I can remain diametrically opposed on this subject and still have a friendly conversation about it.
As I said to another poster in here, maybe I am just not as passionate about my hobby as you.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Just about everything you listed in your post was the same for me, but it was with FFXI. Some of the older MMOs just had features that made the game more community based and fun. We don't need to have our Twitter feed linked inside a game or Facebook to make it more community and social!
Leave the Twits and Faceys for the real world! We want immersion into a fantasy world where it can be shared with others that want to be a part of that world.
LMAO, i'm confused about nothing. I comprehend just fine. And I accuse you of nothing you haven't done. It's all in your comments. And you certainly can't see pass your nose to COMPREHEND my point.
I like how you keep saying "a real MMORPG" and "MMORPG with actual depth". Which implies that the games played by others, who according to you have taken the holy mission to make sure your MMO is not made, are not real MMOs or do not have any depth.
Condescending much?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Obviously you never played an Enchanter or Cleric. As an Enchanter with a Monk friend in EQ1 from around Kunark forward, I experienced alot more than 'dull' combat. If you think that exciting combat is PVP when you can respawn almost instantly with all of your gear and only what 5-10% gear degrade? Not much risk there or excitement. Well, let me tell you, there are places in EQ that took a while just to get to IF no one died and if they did you waited and tempted fate until your dead member returned, if he was able to get through. Usually it was another death involving just dying near the group to get rezzed.
An Enchanter was...busy. Buffing comrades with haste for the meleers and mana for the casters as well as other things. And also CC. Now maybe you think doing CC is easy but one 'no assist' hit on a mezzed mob before a mem blur and your enchanter who might have 2 to 4 mobs mezzed at once is going to be in trouble. Thus, everyone in the group also, is in trouble. One missed CH, one fizzle by the Cleric to the MT and the same result occurred. Most games I've played since has barely gotten my blood pumping or my hands sweaty PVP or PVE. Reward without the risk is what games are like now. The more PVP orientated MMORPGs are, the less I am interested in them and I like games that force me to think, to be patient, to be attentive and to be good at what I'm doing. When everyone, every toon can play every roll badly and still succeed how is that exciting? Yeah there wasn't alot of games when EQ1 came out but I played it 9+ years and a popular EMU 4 more for the same game. I am an adrenaline junkie after all. Rift? AA? AoC? (To name 3) BORING as hell. I call games like those 3 month chucks. You play them for 3 months because you can max two toons in that time and die maybe less than 5x. No risk, to much reward and they are great because what? Twitch or cursor targeting? Really? Pfft!
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I read about the Enchanter class in EQ years after I tried the game. I can't remember if that class was there when I played, it probably was but I didn't do much research into classses just went for what sounded best to me (my mistake). As I didn't play EQ that much all I remember was that I played some kind of melee class and there was to it was autoattacking.
However, I recently was considering playing classic EQ again (obviously it's not 100% percent representation of the game) and after some research into classes I found that the enchanter is in fact a class which I would enjoy very much and was what I decided to play. I still haven't got around to trying it out though due to certain technical issues I am having.
I wasn't expecting any kind of PvP mechanics. My best MMO experience didn't involve much PvPing not until much later. I did try to "relive" that epic experience I had with the first MMO that "clicked" for me and it felt really nostalgic. Unfortunately the idea of spending 10-20 days /played was too much for me to invest that kind of time on that kind of server. Ultimately the sense of wonder was not there because I now know everything about that game. There is no sense of exploration as I have spent thousands of hours exploring that world and there wasn't much left for me even with the all nostalgic "classic/vanilla" feel of it.
So I thought maybe I will try classic EQ to see if that sense of exploration is there too as it ultimately inspired my all time favourite MMO.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That's just the wrong way to look at it. If you want the "freedom" to teleport around, you pick the class that has that ability. If a player chooses to play the game and play a class that doesn't have this ability, that was their choice. They either chose the wrong class, or chose the wrong game. Take your pick.
Thats like me playing a first person shooter and complaining that I don't have a ray gun and space goggles that let me see through walls. Just because one game might have that feature doesn't entitle you to have it in every game.
Throwing around terms like that are akin to people who claim everything they don't like is discrimination.
Well I honestly wish we could have found one another at some point. EQ1, the only really boring classes I found were the Tanks. Rogues were ALOT of fun, especially during corpse runs in very dangerous places. And backstab to much and die. "Honey...get me a towel!" Bards are a blast to play, Wizards (AOE much!) also and Druids. Necro's are a bit slower but man can they solo. A monk is always busy as well. Shamans are a hoot also a great soloer. I would say Tanks and Clerics were my least favorite but as a fighter you watch your health get lower and lower and lower...not exciting but can be stressful. A cleric fizzle is truly something to behold, especially in a healing circle. Rangers didn't come into their own to much later but lets face it, tracking just rocked.
I tried Asherons Call and Asherons Call 2 as well as so many other games but even those still didn't have that...something, that EQ had. Or has if I just logon again. Running for your life through Highpass, Getting spotted by the Undead in Kithicor Forest. Faction that actually mattered and was hell to regain if you destroyed it. No cash shops.
If I had negatives about EQ they would be the bottlenecks for endgame zone keys and epic items. I do feel that these could have been instanced to avoid unnecessary bottlenecking and spawn locks. But the rest? The open world and Regular Dungeons were first come, first served...or first deaded.
Edit: Its not Nostalgia, because I've played just about everything for a short time before I just went back for a while. When everything is instanced, there is no communication, no cooperation, no feeling of community. When bad players or characters were called out, people remembered who they were. Sure there are a$$hats in every game but you still got through it, leveled and raided and needed a towel to wipe the sweat off your brow every once in a while. When you don't care about your character, what happens to them or death in general, there is far less connection or concern for your comrades. And thats what we are really talking about. You can play, have no emotional attachment, pwn then move onto the next thing. Very sad.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I akin fast travel on the same level of convenience as the auction house ( it makes things easier ). Most people like the auction house.......I do not. However I am not going to run around saying; "There shall be no auction houses, because "I"do not like them". If you are going to have a convenience like teleporting in a MMORPG, why restrict it? Unless you have good reasons for doing so. In Al's case, it is based on player immersion, which I understand ( I do not necessarily agree, but I know where he is coming from). And as I said before, even if there was fast travel in a MMORPG, I would probably never use it; unless I was max level, and had already seen all of the world ( I believe random events, or rare mob spawns, would help with this). Forcing people to find a wizard for fast travel is just one way to go about this. I will not say one is right or wrong (unlike yourself), I just give my reasons for why I believe it should be one way or the other.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Instant travel makes it so that you don't have to plan ahead or logoff where you need to be the day before or spend that extra few minutes getting a bind. Again another convenience that really makes a world seem very small and the community feel even smaller.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
This is one of the reasons why, others and myself concluded on making fast travel a rare or expensive method of transportation. But I am sure many, like myself; are growing bored of this particular subject by now.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
There was an NPC Kazdean Gix in East Commonlands I think and a Dragoon in West Commonlands. Gix would fear you and whack you on the back. Then his pet would also whack you on the back. There's not to much scarier then having no control where your character is going, not being sure exactly where you are going, seeing you are running towards mobs that might agro you, and having a nasty dark elf whacking you on the back. Dragoon Zytl was also a pain. Ambassador DVinn was sucked too. Those Dark elves really were nasty folk in EQ. Just as they are depicted in fantasy books.
When did I say it was wrong or right? I didn't say either one was right or wrong, I said it was the wrong way to look at it. I did say its wrong to create ridiculous labels like "forced grouping" or "lacking player freedom" because someone doesn't agree with a game's mechanics or a player's opinion. Its a design decision, if people don't like it they work around it or don't play. If someone has a something constructive to say, they won't make passive-aggressive remarks like "forced grouping" or play the victim card and cry, "You're limiting my freedom!" Most likely, its there for a reason.
I suppose the real question to ask here is "should, or should not, a feature be included in a MMORPG?". Can fast travel be put in a MMORPG? Yes. But asking if fast travel should be put in a MMORPG, is a entirely different can of worms. One of which, I feel no need to find a answer to. That is for the Devs and creators to decide. All I can say, is that in my opinion, generally the more features a game has, the more freedom players have. Your not going to change my opinion on this.
I did not have the time to add this, so I am adding it now: I will not get into a debate with you, over varying levels of freedom. As this is opinion based.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Factions are a huge part of creating a virtual world, and a huge short-coming of many modern mmorpgs. I actually mentioned this in a thread yesterday.
Without factions, worlds become lifeless. There is no story or purpose behind many npcs. In EQ, you constantly had to consider people around you to determine whether they were hostile. Most games have relegated this to flagging mobs aggressive or passive usually based on whether you are on Team A or Team B. No other underlying motivations that determine what an npc does. Everquest had racial factions, city factions, class factions, deity faction and all of them regarded other factions differently. Whether people know it or not, factions played a huge role in giving Everquest that immersive feel that the world was a cloth of many threads.
Just as a side note: this is from the Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen community questions
Exactly. I'm not trying to change your mind, one way or the other.
I will say I like an open world without fast travel permitted the world (and its zones/areas) has the necessary content to make traveling through it interesting.
Fast travel in EQ was really only limited to low levels. It was designed that way so players would experience the world, sort of the way games used to restrict players from using mounts until higher levels. By the time most players were 50+ they were either grouping or raiding with porters or had many of them on their /friends list.
I'm all for that sort of design.
Bunny hop p2w lobby mmo? And you say you are not condescending? I will go on and hop on to play my p2w mmo, ooh wait I don't play p2w MMOs. Sorry.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I like all those factions except I'm not certain if I like the idea of having a reputation for being good at x. I take faction to mean what you believe in more then anything. It's likely that choosing a certain classes would almost be like choosing to believe in certain things that exist in the world. If you choose to be a Ranger that worships Tunare (or something of that nature) you would likely believe in helping the innocent, loving nature, exploring. Likewise you would be against those who are opposed to those core beliefs. It is all intertwined together.
What's even funnier (not in a "ha ha" way... but rather in a sad way), is that the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction, that people can level up faster than they ever could have even if they had all the time in the world to play. You practically have to be standing around doing nothing to not level up in MMOs anymore. XP is thrown around like rice at a wedding for just about anything you can imagine doing.
Don't even get me started on the whole "I'm a grown-up with a family and a career, and I don't have as much time as I used to, so the genre needs to change to cater to my personal circumstances. Because I'm a special snowflake" That's just pure, unfiltered, unmitigated, run-away, self-entitlement on steroids. If ever there was a textbook example of someone wanting to have their cake, and eat it, too... look no further than the self-important egomaniacs spewing that nonsense as though it were a valid argument.
Not to mention... there were people playing EQ1, FFXI, AC1 and others who had families, careers, etc. They played, and they had fun. They just had their feet on the ground, and level heads on their shoulders. They realized that if "Goal A" in "Game B" required more time than they had available, then the rational thing to do was adjust their expectations accordingly. Suggest that to some folks these days, and they'll look at you like you asked them to breathe through their big toe.
I've read rumors about lord British making a new game, wich is based off on his prequel, Ultima Online.
Does anyone have more information about this?