Support Classes! Where have they gone?

Electro057

I've realized in games of recent that there's a severe lack of support classes, that is classes that aren't healers but rather they specialize in buffing the party and using spells that control the field of battle or tempo of a fight. Things like Bards! What happened to this role in MMOs? It was always my favourite, playing strategist and mascot in the backlines.

Flyte27

People only want to DPS in this day and age.

It's also easy mode for the developers in terms of balancing the classes.

It seems with games these days less is more.  More money for the developers and less for the players to think about in game.

Nanfoodle

Sadly the more MMOs move to action combat the farther away we get from support classes. I really miss old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DSP and support. Most twitch MMOs that have support classes they are mostly DPS and never really make support players happy. I hope this trend ends soon.

Electro057

They could put it on character creation, "THIS CLASS IS NOT DPS AND RELIES HEAVILY ON TEAMWORK AND STRATEGY. THE POINT OF THIS CLASS IS TO SUPPORT AND MANAGE THE FIELD!" Like...They could put a massive warning up in flashing letters across the screen and then it wouldn't confused people or cause trouble. People that want DPS could play DPS. 

 

WellzyC

Another awesome aspect of mmos that was destroyed by the mainstream "mmo" crowd. Who want action combat and do it all yourself classes so they can solo through way through the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Electro057

They could put it on character creation, "THIS CLASS IS NOT DPS AND RELIES HEAVILY ON TEAMWORK AND STRATEGY. THE POINT OF THIS CLASS IS TO SUPPORT AND MANAGE THE FIELD!" Like...They could put a massive warning up in flashing letters across the screen and then it wouldn't confused people or cause trouble. People that want DPS could play DPS. 

 

With twitch based MMOs this would unbalance all classes. A support class would need to fit into the theme of all classes. With most MMOs being twitch/action combat. At best you get 10-25% support tools. Often making it easy to be easy to become OP. My Guardian in GW2 was just way over powered in any combat situation because of this. Same with my Mesmer. Real support classes only end up in trinity games. So start wishing for one =-) I have been.

Nanfoodle

Originally posted by WellzyC

Another awesome aspect of mmos that was destroyed by the mainstream "mmo" crowd. Who want action combat and do it all yourself classes so they can solo through way through the game.

 

 

Team based classes needs a team based game. Not gonna find that in twitch games. Its solo or zerg.

Electro057

Originally posted by WellzyC

Another awesome aspect of mmos that was destroyed by the mainstream "mmo" crowd. Who want action combat and do it all yourself classes so they can solo through way through the game.

I will never understand this, because it takes the social aspect out of MMORPGs, which was the main point of them to begin with. If you're not actively playing and engaging other people and their characters then what's the point? It's like how they missed the NWN and NWN2 persistant world community feel with NWO. It just didn't feel the same, they weren't player run communities that operated under demographics or royalty with player owned zones and guilds...It was just....A disgusting soulless MMO experience. And you weren't even social in that MMO, nobody ever spoke or RP'd because everyone was drowned out by endless spam and bots.

Nicco77

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Sadly the more MMOs move to action combat the farther away we get from support classes. I really miss old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DSP and support. Most twitch MMOs that have support classes they are mostly DPS and never really make support players happy. I hope this trend ends soon.

No.

Proof is that a game like WOW has no more CC,support,debuff ect but only tank,dps and heal,support classes are gone because of players that care more about being pro and only look at numbers.

scorpex-x

Support classes are boring to play for the majority of people, MMO titles already have 2 mmo classes that are not liked by most and increase wait times.  Adding another is idiocy in this day and age.

 

Also given modern mmo gaming is questing solo and killing mobs, support classes level incredibly slowly. 

 

In the past waiting hours for a party wasn't really a big deal, you did other things while waiting or you just accepted that was just a reality of playing a multi player game.  These days it's totally unacceptable to wait 30-40 mins and people hate to do anything without the best cookie cutter job setup.

 

You won't see support jobs in modern mmo titles anymore, a tank and healer is already a serious problem since 90% of people want to play dps.   "I want support classes!" is a lesser concern when if they did the outrage of "I waited over an hour for a party!" would follow.

 

Most mmo titles I know of that have dedicated support classes end up having people dual boxing them.

Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative writing or skillful cinematography. 

Shayyd80

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

This guy hit the nail on the head.

scorpex-x

Originally posted by Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative or imaginative narrative or cinematography. 

If you want a triple A budget mmo with pretty graphics then you get the michael bay version of the mmo genre yes.

 

If people didn't care about a game being triple A and having pretty graphics they would go play the games that already have good support classes in the games.

Iselin

Originally posted by Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative or imaginative narrative or cinematography. 

A lot of crap sells very well: there are more McDonald's than gourmet restaurants. Justin Beaver sells a lot more than Dianna Krall... but there still are gourmet restaurant and Dianna Krall also sells... why would MMOs be a any different?

Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative or imaginative narrative or cinematography. 

A lot of crap sells very well: there are more McDonald's than gourmet restaurants. Justin Beaver sells a lot more than Dianna Krall... but there still are gourmet restaurant and Dianna Krall also sells... why would MMOs be a any different?

You have a fair point, I don't think any of my favourite musicians or chefs have ever been praised en masse or sold in a large scale. I guess the same goes for movies and literature, I read things that I consider masterpieces with the most eloquent of prose....But I doubt any have sold as much as Twilight or Fifty Shades of Gray. 

Well I guess I should get back into Neverwinter Nights 2 or Everquest then....A shame.

Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative writing or skillful cinematography. 

Originally posted by Nicco77

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Sadly the more MMOs move to action combat the farther away we get from support classes. I really miss old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DSP and support. Most twitch MMOs that have support classes they are mostly DPS and never really make support players happy. I hope this trend ends soon.

No.

Proof is that a game like WOW has no more CC,support,debuff ect but only tank,dps and heal,support classes are gone because of players that care more about being pro and only look at numbers.

 

Replying to two comments in comments in one post. Yes just no, WoW proved they made tones of money by removing many things including support classes. The idea of Bards and Enchanters just messes up money. And its not dangerous logic, we vote with money and Iselin is right on the money. Unless a company sees a demand for the return of the old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DPS and support. We wont see it. As an old school MMOer this saddens me, as to find games that fit me, I need to play 8-15 year old games.

skeaser

Rift and GW2 have specs that lean toward support more than damage, heals or mitigation. 

cmorris975

I loved playing my EQ1 enchanter!  That class was very fun.  Locking down adds and CC'ing a group through a bad pull was very rewarding.

Kaneth

All support was rolled into other classes, WoW is a really good example of this as multiple classes have ways of controlling a battlefield. Unfortunately, outside of PvP many of those control spells go to waste. Instead of having an off healer, you now have DPS roles who heal passively while using certain abilities (my retribution paladin has a steady flow of healing numbers being generated which more or less acts as a very minor HoT as long as I am alive). Debuffs are baked into other abilities and each class brings a buff now (either actively or passively).

If all classes bring forth some type of utility, then you spend less time finding that "perfect" group. "LFG Bard!" for hours on end isn't exactly fun. Additionally, classes who brought forth no utility were often left out in the cold. When playing DAoC, if my friends weren't on, I could spend hours looking for a group on my Nightshade, but the second I log onto my Hero, it took me all of 30 seconds to find a group.

These types of mechanics changed because of how we reacted to changes. It's been on ongoing process for nearly 20 years now. 

Electro057

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Electro057

Originally posted by Iselin

As much as we like to blame developers for changes in the genre, most of the time they're just doing what the collective "we" - want them to do.

 

Apparently "we" didn't really care enough about support classes... so they went away. It's too bad.

That's pretty dangerous logic there, according to that then Michael Bay films are what we want too since they gross so much. Do we really want nothing but explosions and a thread thin plot? That doesn't seem like creative writing or skillful cinematography. 

Originally posted by Nicco77

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Sadly the more MMOs move to action combat the farther away we get from support classes. I really miss old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DSP and support. Most twitch MMOs that have support classes they are mostly DPS and never really make support players happy. I hope this trend ends soon.

No.

Proof is that a game like WOW has no more CC,support,debuff ect but only tank,dps and heal,support classes are gone because of players that care more about being pro and only look at numbers.

 

Replying to two comments in comments in one post. Yes just no, WoW proved they made tones of money by removing many things including support classes. The idea of Bards and Enchanters just messes up money. And its not dangerous logic, we vote with money and Iselin is right on the money. Unless a company sees a demand for the return of the old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DPS and support. We wont see it. As an old school MMOer this saddens me, as to find games that fit me, I need to play 8-15 year old games.

Well it just means we aren't the target audience anymore, which I think probably happens with all hobbies at some point. I bet the same thing happened when movies stopped being frowned upon and became an accepted form of media! The difference is in other hobbies and pasttimes I think the hobbyist holds more power, and they can improve upon something they already have if it's not up to their standards, yet those standards are not provided by the mass producers. 

If a hobby RC enthusiast can't find the specifications he desires, he could always attempt to engineer them himself or get a custom build. Not so much for our hobby.

Mendel

There's a fundamental problem with support classes -- MMORPGs tend to evaluate everything in terms of HPs.  It is incredibly difficult to programmatically determine the value of a contribution for buffs, debuffs and binary effects (snare, mez, root, calm, etc.)  These effects greatly effect the outcome of an encounter, but how do you credit the contributions when determining XP split.

This has long been an issue in MMORPGs.  In PoP-era Everquest 1, I had an enchanter who was grouping with some friends, a paladin and a cleric, grinding on hobgoblins in Plane of Nightmares.  We'd pull one, I'd slow and debuff it (and deal with any adds) before the paladin killed it.  If I didn't do any damage, I would not get the same XP as the others, and we were all the same level.  After ten kills, I'd have gained 1%, the others would have close to 3%.  If I did any damage, even 1 point with a melee attack, I'd stay even on XP.  We figured that there wasn't a systematic way of determining the value of binary effects when killing a mob with nnn number of hit points, and may have been some code to restrict /afk leveling.

So, support classes need to contribute via damage (melee, spells, etc.) to make the programming easier.  Binary effects that can't be measured in terms of HPs delivered or HPs restored led to a focus on damage delivery / healing on support classes.  As new games were developed, the binary effects were moved to direct combat classes -- some melees could perform crowd control, some could slow, some could root/snare -- reducing the need for non-combatants.

Ultimately, since an MMORPG only simulates combat, all characters need to participate in combat.  You can't talk your way out of a fight, or trick a goblin into believing you have seventy friends nearby, or made a rat run away.  An encounter always ends with one party dead, and the other victorious.   A system that replaces 'dead' with 'defeated' allows more room for non-combatants.

Shaigh

While we can blame players for them being removed its a shortsighted way of looking at why they were eliminated.

 

The issue with support classes becomes more and more obvious when fights are tuned harder. From being something that is positive to have in your group they suddenly become mandatory to have. You have a buff that compensates for one less person dealing damage and they also do something else. That's a very powerful boon to have in a dungeon and as you make dungeons tougher to compensate for the stronger party, that support character just became mandatory.

 

Add this to a raid scenario and there are two things that can happen. Either the buffs are distributed to only their group meaning you need support for every group, or the buffs are raid wide and you need one of each type of support. In one case you need lots of support players, in the other you need ONE!

 

You also have the other issue and that is people mostly found them boring so to many people it was just another obstacle finding people for a group.

bentrim

uhhhh...op, they went away with the loss of the trinity....where the hell have you been for the past 10-12 years???

Electro057

Originally posted by bentrim
uhhhh...op, they went away with the loss of the trinity....where the hell have you been for the past 10-12 years???

As I said, as of recent they've been non-existant. 10-12 Years is rather recent for me, and I was playing games with support classes in 2008 so.....2008 wasn't 12 years ago, unless my senility has affected my math and deduction skills.

Halandir

Min/maxers love for DPS-meters/combat log parsers and everyone else willingly accepting that THESE numbers were the only truth killed support.

Add to that, that one major reason for ppl to get annoyed at mechanics in pvp is stunlocking: It's simply unfun and people on the recieving end just ends up leaving without looking back.

While I did enjoy the healer/protector + everything else in GW pve I always hated the idiocy of the tank archetype: "Hey I am an armored tank throwing curses at you - Attack me instead of the actual threats!"

Trinity, even Trinity + support = Not interesting to me...