I don't know, I think the concept of DPS as a role is stupid.
I like your logic. What I'd add would be minor weaknesses that a) make sense and b) are randomized so they don't lead to static class preferences. More dnd style depth in utilities would also be in order.
Definitely - every class/role and/or race should have strengths and weaknesses.
Nothing game-breaking on the race side, but more than just flavor.
I think Elder Scrolls games have always done a pretty good job at racial diversity.
Yeah, if you really wanted to min/max, you'd make your bow using, stealth assassin dagger type a Khajit or Argonian or Wood Elf etc. instead of a Nord or Orc, but you could certainly make it work with any race without gimping yourself.
I know it's not the best example, but Blizzard's ''bring the player, not the class'' definitely damaged the Shaman in WoW. It's unfortunate, but i doubt we'll see support classes being important again, before the more expensive suits has left the genre and the dust has settled.
It's possibly the only Shaman class i'll ever like, unless someone niche designs something just as interesting. That's without a limited action bar and with traditional tab target as well, which would go against typical designs today.
It's a side effect of the 'everyone needs to be able to solo' mentality. In the process of making everyone self sufficient, they pretty much always water down group-centric abilities. FFXIV is a good example of this. A WHM has a grand total of two party buffs. Bards can only do one song at a time. SCH buffs are weaker versions of the WHM has. And that's it. There are no other group support abilities in the game. But hey, it's okay, because they have a toggle that turns them into gimped BLMs.
It makes me really, really miss games like CoH that had entire powersets devoted to buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.
I've said for a long time, trinity SHOULD be control (tank), support (heal), disrupt (what we typically think of as support) and everyone does similar damage.
This was the original EQ trinity, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter; Tank, Healer, CC. The Trinity as we know it today, tank, healer, dps, didn't really exist pre WoW.
Part of the problem was touched on in an earlier reply and it's to do with PvP. Enchanters locked down whole groups of mobs. DAoC was the best PvP game I've ever played and that was constantly plagued by one, and only one main gripe. Mezz. Basically whoever got mezz off first won, which was why almost every class that could, spent their first 3 RvR points on Determination, to reduce the time they could be mezzed/stunned for.
EQ on the other hand was a pure PvE game, unless you lived on a Zek server.
Since WoW every MMO to come out has included PvP so having a class that can stun/mezz/lock down a whole group of people becomes extremely over powered. And so begins the balancing nightmare.
Support classes have disappeared for a number of reasons including, balancing them in PvP, people wanting to see big numbers on screen (the DPS crowd), the pace of today's games being so much faster (no point debuffing a mob that dies in >10 seconds).
I think that in order for these classes to make a comeback the MMO that included them would need to have a focus on PvE and a much slower pace then we see today. We're talking about a very niche audience.
I've said for a long time, trinity SHOULD be control (tank), support (heal), disrupt (what we typically think of as support) and everyone does similar damage.
This was the original EQ trinity, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter; Tank, Healer, CC. The Trinity as we know it today, tank, healer, dps, didn't really exist pre WoW.
Part of the problem was touched on in an earlier reply and it's to do with PvP. Enchanters locked down whole groups of mobs. DAoC was the best PvP game I've ever played and that was constantly plagued by one, and only one main gripe. Mezz. Basically whoever got mezz off first won, which was why almost every class that could, spent their first 3 RvR points on Determination, to reduce the time they could be mezzed/stunned for.
EQ on the other hand was a pure PvE game, unless you lived on a Zek server.
Since WoW every MMO to come out has included PvP so having a class that can stun/mezz/lock down a whole group of people becomes extremely over powered. And so begins the balancing nightmare.
Support classes have disappeared for a number of reasons including, balancing them in PvP, people wanting to see big numbers on screen (the DPS crowd), the pace of today's games being so much faster (no point debuffing a mob that dies in >10 seconds).
I think that in order for these classes to make a comeback the MMO that included them would need to have a focus on PvE and a much slower pace then we see today. We're talking about a very niche audience.
It was more like Tank, DPS, CC, puller. Usually you would have a tank and an off tank. You likely would have multiple DPS. Sometimes classes had multiple jobs depending on if they had any utility to offer. A Bard would pull, lull, mez, and restore health/mana over time. Shadow Knight and Paladin could tank if needed. Many classes could CC a bit as most had a root of some sort. Enchanters and Bards were the best because they could lull and mez. Druids, Rangers, and Necros were good for Snares.
Support classes need groups. Their whole concept goes out the window if groups are not central to MMO play. Welcome to modern solo-easymode MMOs, where everything was ditched to entice solo gamers to buy MMOs.
That's MMO history to be honest, they disappeared from new launches about 5 years ago.
Well RIFT (2011) did launch with support specs, still has them, and makes them work the same way they always work in games with solo content (by giving players dual-specs, so they just switch to their solo spec to solo.) GW2 (2012) had several playstyles which were very support-focused too.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't know, I think the concept of DPS as a role is stupid.
If I'm a Knight, and I stab a monster in the face with my sword, or I'm a Cleric and I bash a monster over the head with my mace, or if I'm a Wizard and I light the mf on fire with a spell...
How and why does that do less damage than a 90 pound elf with a 3 inch dagger stabbing the monster in the back?
I've said for a long time, trinity SHOULD be control (tank), support (heal), disrupt (what we typically think of as support) and everyone does similar damage.
Control would be all about enemy positioning and harassment, trying to keep their attention yes but also standing in between danger and their allies.
Support would certainly have a large role in healing, but also in buffs for their group and removal of debuffs on their group.
Disrupt would be the role to debuff the enemy, remove buffs from the enemy, and have the ability to remove an enemy from the battle for a short time, be it via stun/mezz/root/etc.
But they would all be able to smash things about equally. Would help balance PvP, and make PvE encounters interesting and fun.
Control would be able to absorb more punishment, and help direct the flow of a battle, but be unable to heal and not have many escape options.
Support would be able to aid their allies and heal wounds, but be a little more fragile.
Disrupt would excel at harassing enemies with a variety of methods, and have good escape options, but still be a little squishy and unable to heal.
As a person who understands Game Design I must mention in regards to damage. There are still somethings you have to consider by damage. Not every class should be able to damage evenly. There should be a scale of what the damage based off the type of damage output they do and what sort of defenses are negating or absorbing attacks. Let me explain...
Example 1
Class that has a Dagger is back stabbing a target. That Back stab would theoretically do more damage to a target that has lighter armor, cloth, leather. It would do moderate damage to a target that is wearing mail armor. It would do very little damage to a target that is wearing plate. A dagger is not meant to pierce plate.
Example 2
Class that can cast Fire Ball to a target. A fire ball is considered magic. It's elemental. Naturally, any armor wearing class would not be able to absorb the fire because it would melt their armor. The only defense mechanism would be fire resistant armor or a coding on the armor that could repel a portion of the fire damage.
In the above examples you'll see that fire damage should naturally do more damage than a class who can use "backstab" with a dagger to another target. Actually taking account different Armor defense would determine the amount of damage you can do that would breach their armor defense.
Revisiting this thread, I agree too with some that the decrease in group size has forced the hand.. I think it's a big mistake to have anything less then 6 people per group.. I have always enjoyed roles and abilities that were class defining such as feign death, or mass charm, or resurrection, pulling, snare/rooting, etc etc.. However, I understand the need that every class needs to be soloable, I just don't agree on how they did it.. Nerfing the hell out of support roles and making everyone some form of dps, wasn't the answer IMO..
What I would of loved to have seen is zones that had a mix of solo content (80%) and group content (20%) NO INSTANCES.. The group content needs to be difficult enough to support groups of 4-6 players, sometimes more if it's a raid boss.. When group/raid size is needed each class needs some heroic class defining ability that makes them unique, and needed..
We really do need to go back to a mentality that NOT EVERYONE is equal and can do everything.. Playing a druid in EQ, I never once felt jealous of a cleric's heal/rez ability, or a chanters skills.. etc etc.. I had stuff they didn't have.. All is good
Every class should always be able to act as DPS besides their class specific role (tank, heal, support, cc/debuff, etc).
I think devs need to completely remove DPS from the "roles". DPS is not a role, its the basic action everyone does in a game, plenty of damage to kill something regardless of what class/role you are.
Make it so if you want to tank in a dungeon, you just spec as a tank, but if you want to be dps with the same class you can also do that because, lets be honest, if your character didnt know how to deal damage it wouldnt be facing monsters. Everyone should be viable as DPS, add it as a default class mechanic and remove it from the LFG roles so its open to any class to fill the group as damage dealer.
For those who are saying DPS isn't a role, is it's something new, you're wrong. DPS was a viable role in Everquest. Let me break down the roles and classes for you...
Tank Role
Warrior - Pure Tank
Paladin - Tank + Minor Off Heals and Minor Buffing
Shadow Knight - Tank + debuff + puller
Puller Role
Bard - Puller + Buffer + CC
Ranger - Puller + DPS
Monk - Puller + DPS
DPS
Wizard - DPS + Porting + Minor CC (roots)
Necromancer - DPS + Debuffing
Magician - DPS + Summoning supplies
Ranger - DPS + Puller
Monk - DPS + Puller
Beastlord - DPS + buffer/debuffer
Crowd Crontrol = Mez, & Root
Bard - CC + Buffer + Puller
Enchanter - CC + Buffer
Druid - Healer + Minor DPS + Minor CC + Buffing
Wizard - DPS + Minor CC
Shaman - Healer + Buffer + Minor CC (roots)
Healer
Cleric - Healer + Buffer
Druid - Healer + Minor DPS + Minor CC + Buffing
Shaman - Healer + Buffer + Minor CC
As you can see a lot of classes may fit many different roles because they are hybrid classes. For those who played on Karana/Rathe should know who my character was, Eronakis, Erudite Wizard. Made damn good groups. These are the roles that groups looked for in EQ. So yes, DPS is a role.
Every class should always be able to act as DPS besides their class specific role (tank, heal, support, cc/debuff, etc).
I think devs need to completely remove DPS from the "roles". DPS is not a role, its the basic action everyone does in a game, plenty of damage to kill something regardless of what class/role you are.
Make it so if you want to tank in a dungeon, you just spec as a tank, but if you want to be dps with the same class you can also do that because, lets be honest, if your character didnt know how to deal damage it wouldnt be facing monsters. Everyone should be viable as DPS, add it as a default class mechanic and remove it from the LFG roles so its open to any class to fill the group as damage dealer.
Theoretically every class in old MMOS could DPS. Some just did it a lot more efficiently or faster then others. In group you generally stuck to your role as it was often times needed. A healer couldn't afford to waste mana on inefficient damage. An enchanter couldn't waste mana on anything but CC. Mana uses classes couldn't afford to spam damage spells.
Every class should always be able to act as DPS besides their class specific role (tank, heal, support, cc/debuff, etc).
I think devs need to completely remove DPS from the "roles". DPS is not a role, its the basic action everyone does in a game, plenty of damage to kill something regardless of what class/role you are.
Agreed.. that is what I"m suggesting as well.. DPS should be a default position that allows anyone to solo "yard" trash such as bears, snakes, lions, etc etc.. That dps number should be relatively the same too regardless of class.. A Warrior does 100 dps, a Ranger does 100 dps, a Cleric does 100 dps, and the Chanter does 100dps.. The differences should be when it comes to their class defining roles such as "crowd control", or "heals", or "teleportation" or hamstringing.. etc etc.. These class defining abilities come out to shine in group play, but have little or no effect in soloing the yard trash..
I would give each class at least one heroic ability such as Resurrection for the cleric, and a few lesser abilities such as heals, or buffs.. The heroic ability would ONLY be for that class and no other, whereas the lesser abilities can be shared by other classes such as heals..
In conclusion and addition, for support classes to really show their stuff, fights HAVE to last longer then 5 seconds, and there should be micro management of characters outside of the 5 second combat.. Bring back Clarity buff, Bring back Bard songs, etc etc.. Being a member of a group should be MORE then just what happens during those 5 second whack a mole moments.. LOL
Agreed.. that is what I"m suggesting as well.. DPS should be a default position that allows anyone to solo "yard" trash such as bears, snakes, lions, etc etc.. That dps number should be relatively the same too regardless of class.. A Warrior does 100 dps, a Ranger does 100 dps, a Cleric does 100 dps, and the Chanter does 100dps.. The differences should be when it comes to their class defining roles such as "crowd control", or "heals", or "teleportation" or hamstringing.. etc etc.. These class defining abilities come out to shine in group play, but have little or no effect in soloing the yard trash..
I would give each class at least one heroic ability such as Resurrection for the cleric, and a few lesser abilities such as heals, or buffs.. The heroic ability would ONLY be for that class and no other, whereas the lesser abilities can be shared by other classes such as heals..
In conclusion and addition, for support classes to really show their stuff, fights HAVE to last longer then 5 seconds, and there should be micro management of characters outside of the 5 second combat.. Bring back Clarity buff, Bring back Bard songs, etc etc.. Being a member of a group should be MORE then just what happens during those 5 second whack a mole moments.. LOL
Well most games already tend to do this, except obviously when a cleric is dealing their 100 DPS they're in a spec which cannot also heal particularly well. Specialization needs to be maintained (or everyone would only take tanks+healers because they'd have all their awesome utility while also dealing the highest damage.)
It's a solved problem. Each spec is a specialization, but you can take at least 2 specs and swap between them at will.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Sadly the more MMOs move to action combat the farther away we get from support classes. I really miss old school trinity, Tank, Heals, DSP and support. Most twitch MMOs that have support classes they are mostly DPS and never really make support players happy. I hope this trend ends soon.
No.
Proof is that a game like WOW has no more CC,support,debuff ect but only tank,dps and heal,support classes are gone because of players that care more about being pro and only look at numbers.
Oh, I remember those days when you would mark targets and sap one, sheep another and crowd control a few more or kite one.
NOw it's "Balls to the wall!" and blame the healer or tank because they couldn't "do their job".
One of the biggest reason I mostly PvP in WoW, Rift and a few others. Only place things feel like a real challenge, especially when you find a group to run with and works well together to CC and focus targets.
Well most games already tend to do this, except obviously when a cleric is dealing their 100 DPS they're in a spec which cannot also heal particularly well. Specialization needs to be maintained (or everyone would only take tanks+healers because they'd have all their awesome utility while also dealing the highest damage.)
It's a solved problem. Each spec is a specialization, but you can take at least 2 specs and swap between them at will.
That depends on difficulty of mobs.. Most games today mobs are just whack a mole combat.. SHIT, in most games I can take on 2 and 3 mobs at a time, which is a total joke IMO.. My stance is based on that mobs will have competitive power to those of the player.. No player is going to be able to chain cast class skills without restrictions.. Tank / Heals isn't the answer to everything.. I sure as heck would make events that strongly encourage crowd control, pulling and buffing/ debuffing.. Trust me, in EQ going tank/heal was not the answer to most encounters..
Oh, I remember those days when you would mark targets and sap one, sheep another and crowd control a few more or kite one. No kidding.. I miss those days of marking targets.. It made grouping a challenge and fun.. Ha Ha, especially when someone broke trap early.. SHIT!!!..
NOw it's "Balls to the wall!" and blame the healer or tank because they couldn't "do their job".
One of the biggest reason I mostly PvP in WoW, . I miss doing pre-made group in Alterac Valley.. While on vent talking we would always rush the Horde GY at the end.. I was the holy pally leading the way taking the hits from the archers as we passed them.. Boy did we mess things up for the Horde.. Having a Pally, Warlock, Priest, Hunter and Rogue all rush the GY just gave the other side fits.. LOL
We're dealing with a Niche class within a Niche genre. It isn't hard to fathom why hardly anyone creates those un-wanted classes.
I'm confused. According to you, niche products are supposed to suck, or to be trivial and of little value, because they are niche ? Or what exactly is the logic of your posting ?
It isn't that hard to figure out now is it? If you can't understand why hardly any devs create such unwanted class design in their MMO's then you my friend need to get a clue.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
That depends on difficulty of mobs.. Most games today mobs are just whack a mole combat.. SHIT, in most games I can take on 2 and 3 mobs at a time, which is a total joke IMO.. My stance is based on that mobs will have competitive power to those of the player.. No player is going to be able to chain cast class skills without restrictions.. Tank / Heals isn't the answer to everything.. I sure as heck would make events that strongly encourage crowd control, pulling and buffing/ debuffing.. Trust me, in EQ going tank/heal was not the answer to most encounters..
Judging a game based on the number of mobs you can handle at once is very strange.
The main point was that if pure DPS classes aren't clearly more valuable in a DPS role that obviously they won't be taken. There was a patch in WOW where Blood DKs (tank) put out the same DPS as a DPS class -- except while also being way more durable and with far better survival skills -- and so naturally players created groups with just DKs and a healer and not only did they do better than a regular group would, they had the advantage of taunting as an option to save the tank in emergencies without any loss of incoming damage mitigation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's also easy mode for the developers in terms of balancing the classes.
It seems with games these days less is more. More money for the developers and less for the players to think about in game.
Well that sums it up easier than i could say it lol.
You will definitely not see the diversity of FFXI offered in class design in other games,even the healers offered some form of support in ffxi.
I guess the main reason is developers are just spewing out super cheap games with no depth.They will tell you there is depth,but i think they don't have a clue what depth really is.A BArd for example in FFXI offered an Attack/accuracy magic and melee and ranged boost as well as help to regen hit points and regen mp.It could also sleep single or multiple targets as well as other abilities.
Then you had Summoners that could boost stats or elemental defenses.There lies a problem MOST games don't have that added depth of elemental properties nor does accuracy even come into play.
I know we heard lame arguments by devs that simply are not good at designing games or ROLES...ahem Anet.There is no reason what so ever to change from ROLES in our role playing games,we just need better developers that know what they are doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I've said for a long time, trinity SHOULD be control (tank), support (heal), disrupt (what we typically think of as support) and everyone does similar damage.
This was the original EQ trinity, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter; Tank, Healer, CC. The Trinity as we know it today, tank, healer, dps, didn't really exist pre WoW.
Part of the problem was touched on in an earlier reply and it's to do with PvP. Enchanters locked down whole groups of mobs. DAoC was the best PvP game I've ever played and that was constantly plagued by one, and only one main gripe. Mezz. Basically whoever got mezz off first won, which was why almost every class that could, spent their first 3 RvR points on Determination, to reduce the time they could be mezzed/stunned for.
EQ on the other hand was a pure PvE game, unless you lived on a Zek server.
Since WoW every MMO to come out has included PvP so having a class that can stun/mezz/lock down a whole group of people becomes extremely over powered. And so begins the balancing nightmare.
Support classes have disappeared for a number of reasons including, balancing them in PvP, people wanting to see big numbers on screen (the DPS crowd), the pace of today's games being so much faster (no point debuffing a mob that dies in >10 seconds).
I think that in order for these classes to make a comeback the MMO that included them would need to have a focus on PvE and a much slower pace then we see today. We're talking about a very niche audience.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
We're dealing with a Niche class within a Niche genre. It isn't hard to fathom why hardly anyone creates those un-wanted classes.
I'm confused. According to you, niche products are supposed to suck, or to be trivial and of little value, because they are niche ? Or what exactly is the logic of your posting ?
If it is niche, it doesn't have anything to lose then.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
Definitely - every class/role and/or race should have strengths and weaknesses.
Nothing game-breaking on the race side, but more than just flavor.
I think Elder Scrolls games have always done a pretty good job at racial diversity.
Yeah, if you really wanted to min/max, you'd make your bow using, stealth assassin dagger type a Khajit or Argonian or Wood Elf etc. instead of a Nord or Orc, but you could certainly make it work with any race without gimping yourself.
I know it's not the best example, but Blizzard's ''bring the player, not the class'' definitely damaged the Shaman in WoW. It's unfortunate, but i doubt we'll see support classes being important again, before the more expensive suits has left the genre and the dust has settled.
It's possibly the only Shaman class i'll ever like, unless someone niche designs something just as interesting. That's without a limited action bar and with traditional tab target as well, which would go against typical designs today.
It's a side effect of the 'everyone needs to be able to solo' mentality. In the process of making everyone self sufficient, they pretty much always water down group-centric abilities. FFXIV is a good example of this. A WHM has a grand total of two party buffs. Bards can only do one song at a time. SCH buffs are weaker versions of the WHM has. And that's it. There are no other group support abilities in the game. But hey, it's okay, because they have a toggle that turns them into gimped BLMs.
It makes me really, really miss games like CoH that had entire powersets devoted to buffing, debuffing, healing, etc.
This was the original EQ trinity, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter; Tank, Healer, CC. The Trinity as we know it today, tank, healer, dps, didn't really exist pre WoW.
Part of the problem was touched on in an earlier reply and it's to do with PvP. Enchanters locked down whole groups of mobs. DAoC was the best PvP game I've ever played and that was constantly plagued by one, and only one main gripe. Mezz. Basically whoever got mezz off first won, which was why almost every class that could, spent their first 3 RvR points on Determination, to reduce the time they could be mezzed/stunned for.
EQ on the other hand was a pure PvE game, unless you lived on a Zek server.
Since WoW every MMO to come out has included PvP so having a class that can stun/mezz/lock down a whole group of people becomes extremely over powered. And so begins the balancing nightmare.
Support classes have disappeared for a number of reasons including, balancing them in PvP, people wanting to see big numbers on screen (the DPS crowd), the pace of today's games being so much faster (no point debuffing a mob that dies in >10 seconds).
I think that in order for these classes to make a comeback the MMO that included them would need to have a focus on PvE and a much slower pace then we see today. We're talking about a very niche audience.
It was more like Tank, DPS, CC, puller. Usually you would have a tank and an off tank. You likely would have multiple DPS. Sometimes classes had multiple jobs depending on if they had any utility to offer. A Bard would pull, lull, mez, and restore health/mana over time. Shadow Knight and Paladin could tank if needed. Many classes could CC a bit as most had a root of some sort. Enchanters and Bards were the best because they could lull and mez. Druids, Rangers, and Necros were good for Snares.
Well RIFT (2011) did launch with support specs, still has them, and makes them work the same way they always work in games with solo content (by giving players dual-specs, so they just switch to their solo spec to solo.) GW2 (2012) had several playstyles which were very support-focused too.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As a person who understands Game Design I must mention in regards to damage. There are still somethings you have to consider by damage. Not every class should be able to damage evenly. There should be a scale of what the damage based off the type of damage output they do and what sort of defenses are negating or absorbing attacks. Let me explain...
Example 1
Class that has a Dagger is back stabbing a target. That Back stab would theoretically do more damage to a target that has lighter armor, cloth, leather. It would do moderate damage to a target that is wearing mail armor. It would do very little damage to a target that is wearing plate. A dagger is not meant to pierce plate.
Example 2
Class that can cast Fire Ball to a target. A fire ball is considered magic. It's elemental. Naturally, any armor wearing class would not be able to absorb the fire because it would melt their armor. The only defense mechanism would be fire resistant armor or a coding on the armor that could repel a portion of the fire damage.
In the above examples you'll see that fire damage should naturally do more damage than a class who can use "backstab" with a dagger to another target. Actually taking account different Armor defense would determine the amount of damage you can do that would breach their armor defense.
Revisiting this thread, I agree too with some that the decrease in group size has forced the hand.. I think it's a big mistake to have anything less then 6 people per group.. I have always enjoyed roles and abilities that were class defining such as feign death, or mass charm, or resurrection, pulling, snare/rooting, etc etc.. However, I understand the need that every class needs to be soloable, I just don't agree on how they did it.. Nerfing the hell out of support roles and making everyone some form of dps, wasn't the answer IMO..
What I would of loved to have seen is zones that had a mix of solo content (80%) and group content (20%) NO INSTANCES.. The group content needs to be difficult enough to support groups of 4-6 players, sometimes more if it's a raid boss.. When group/raid size is needed each class needs some heroic class defining ability that makes them unique, and needed..
We really do need to go back to a mentality that NOT EVERYONE is equal and can do everything.. Playing a druid in EQ, I never once felt jealous of a cleric's heal/rez ability, or a chanters skills.. etc etc.. I had stuff they didn't have.. All is good
Every class should always be able to act as DPS besides their class specific role (tank, heal, support, cc/debuff, etc).
I think devs need to completely remove DPS from the "roles". DPS is not a role, its the basic action everyone does in a game, plenty of damage to kill something regardless of what class/role you are.
Make it so if you want to tank in a dungeon, you just spec as a tank, but if you want to be dps with the same class you can also do that because, lets be honest, if your character didnt know how to deal damage it wouldnt be facing monsters. Everyone should be viable as DPS, add it as a default class mechanic and remove it from the LFG roles so its open to any class to fill the group as damage dealer.
Everything is a "hybrid" now. I hate it, compared to the previous way of doing it. The reality is though that it has more broad appeal that way.
For those who are saying DPS isn't a role, is it's something new, you're wrong. DPS was a viable role in Everquest. Let me break down the roles and classes for you...
Tank Role
Warrior - Pure Tank
Paladin - Tank + Minor Off Heals and Minor Buffing
Shadow Knight - Tank + debuff + puller
Puller Role
Bard - Puller + Buffer + CC
Ranger - Puller + DPS
Monk - Puller + DPS
DPS
Wizard - DPS + Porting + Minor CC (roots)
Necromancer - DPS + Debuffing
Magician - DPS + Summoning supplies
Ranger - DPS + Puller
Monk - DPS + Puller
Beastlord - DPS + buffer/debuffer
Crowd Crontrol = Mez, & Root
Bard - CC + Buffer + Puller
Enchanter - CC + Buffer
Druid - Healer + Minor DPS + Minor CC + Buffing
Wizard - DPS + Minor CC
Shaman - Healer + Buffer + Minor CC (roots)
Healer
Cleric - Healer + Buffer
Druid - Healer + Minor DPS + Minor CC + Buffing
Shaman - Healer + Buffer + Minor CC
As you can see a lot of classes may fit many different roles because they are hybrid classes. For those who played on Karana/Rathe should know who my character was, Eronakis, Erudite Wizard. Made damn good groups. These are the roles that groups looked for in EQ. So yes, DPS is a role.
Theoretically every class in old MMOS could DPS. Some just did it a lot more efficiently or faster then others. In group you generally stuck to your role as it was often times needed. A healer couldn't afford to waste mana on inefficient damage. An enchanter couldn't waste mana on anything but CC. Mana uses classes couldn't afford to spam damage spells.
Taunts, "pullers", long lasting hard CC, buff bots, begging for a teleport or resurrection...
Kill it with fire! Nuke it from orbit!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Agreed.. that is what I"m suggesting as well.. DPS should be a default position that allows anyone to solo "yard" trash such as bears, snakes, lions, etc etc.. That dps number should be relatively the same too regardless of class.. A Warrior does 100 dps, a Ranger does 100 dps, a Cleric does 100 dps, and the Chanter does 100dps.. The differences should be when it comes to their class defining roles such as "crowd control", or "heals", or "teleportation" or hamstringing.. etc etc.. These class defining abilities come out to shine in group play, but have little or no effect in soloing the yard trash..
I would give each class at least one heroic ability such as Resurrection for the cleric, and a few lesser abilities such as heals, or buffs.. The heroic ability would ONLY be for that class and no other, whereas the lesser abilities can be shared by other classes such as heals..
In conclusion and addition, for support classes to really show their stuff, fights HAVE to last longer then 5 seconds, and there should be micro management of characters outside of the 5 second combat.. Bring back Clarity buff, Bring back Bard songs, etc etc.. Being a member of a group should be MORE then just what happens during those 5 second whack a mole moments.. LOL
Well most games already tend to do this, except obviously when a cleric is dealing their 100 DPS they're in a spec which cannot also heal particularly well. Specialization needs to be maintained (or everyone would only take tanks+healers because they'd have all their awesome utility while also dealing the highest damage.)
It's a solved problem. Each spec is a specialization, but you can take at least 2 specs and swap between them at will.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Oh, I remember those days when you would mark targets and sap one, sheep another and crowd control a few more or kite one.
NOw it's "Balls to the wall!" and blame the healer or tank because they couldn't "do their job".
One of the biggest reason I mostly PvP in WoW, Rift and a few others. Only place things feel like a real challenge, especially when you find a group to run with and works well together to CC and focus targets.
That depends on difficulty of mobs.. Most games today mobs are just whack a mole combat.. SHIT, in most games I can take on 2 and 3 mobs at a time, which is a total joke IMO.. My stance is based on that mobs will have competitive power to those of the player.. No player is going to be able to chain cast class skills without restrictions.. Tank / Heals isn't the answer to everything.. I sure as heck would make events that strongly encourage crowd control, pulling and buffing/ debuffing.. Trust me, in EQ going tank/heal was not the answer to most encounters..
It isn't that hard to figure out now is it? If you can't understand why hardly any devs create such unwanted class design in their MMO's then you my friend need to get a clue.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Judging a game based on the number of mobs you can handle at once is very strange.
The main point was that if pure DPS classes aren't clearly more valuable in a DPS role that obviously they won't be taken. There was a patch in WOW where Blood DKs (tank) put out the same DPS as a DPS class -- except while also being way more durable and with far better survival skills -- and so naturally players created groups with just DKs and a healer and not only did they do better than a regular group would, they had the advantage of taunting as an option to save the tank in emergencies without any loss of incoming damage mitigation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well that sums it up easier than i could say it lol.
You will definitely not see the diversity of FFXI offered in class design in other games,even the healers offered some form of support in ffxi.
I guess the main reason is developers are just spewing out super cheap games with no depth.They will tell you there is depth,but i think they don't have a clue what depth really is.A BArd for example in FFXI offered an Attack/accuracy magic and melee and ranged boost as well as help to regen hit points and regen mp.It could also sleep single or multiple targets as well as other abilities.
Then you had Summoners that could boost stats or elemental defenses.There lies a problem MOST games don't have that added depth of elemental properties nor does accuracy even come into play.
I know we heard lame arguments by devs that simply are not good at designing games or ROLES...ahem Anet.There is no reason what so ever to change from ROLES in our role playing games,we just need better developers that know what they are doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Here is the origin of the trinity: http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If it is niche, it doesn't have anything to lose then.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"