I've stopped playing PvP games. They all inevitably get ruined by cheaters. Too many little 12 year olds timmies that don't understand and just want to win win win.
A lot of games where exploiting, botting, and cheating are rampant are often disreputable or unpopular games. When players feel that the publisher/devs don't care about their own game, players are more likely to cheat. I guess it's safe to assume that if even the owners of a game don't want to take the game anywhere, it's probably going to die eventually, so get your rocks off while you can since the servers will eventually close and you won't be playing anyway. Also, due to dev/publisher ineptness, it's usually easier to find cheats and exploits for their games.
Then there are fiercely competitive rat-race games, often of the cutthroat sandbox variety, even more often of asian origin that stress being #1. Players basically regard cheating and exploiting in these types of games as a necessary evil. Their thought process would probably be something along the lines of: "If I get away with it I'll keep playing with a big advantage. If I continue playing the rat-race normally I'll end up hating this game anyways so I might as well risk being banned." These MMOs have tons of RMT where players will often have out-of-game transactions of real money to get rare equipment. Because this sort of behavior isn't regarded as bannable, it's used to justify cheating/exploting/botting as well.
I don't really think cheaters and exploiters care about being the best or better than other people. If they really wanted to be recognized as #1 then they wouldn't risk cheating and exploiting since all it would take would be a single ban to destroy their reputation and efforts. They might use a separate IP and account to do their cheating with in a way that somehow benefits their main but that's a rare case. Most cheaters simply don't care about their reputation because they have nothing invested in the game or the community. The currently popular style of Community Management pandering to an echo-chamber and being super placating and positive is disgusting and only encourages dissidents and transgressive players to cheat and disrupt. There's nothing a developer or community can do to force a player to be invested in a game or community. There will always be cheaters who want to waste some money and cheat for fun in a game until they get banned. Even in South Korea, where they ban based on social security numbers, there are still people who try to cheat (with fake SSNs).
Some people just want to watch the world burn. You'd have to get those people to love their respective worlds more than they want to indulge their appetites, but that won't happen within a pandering, disingenuous, and often corrupt industry that habitually fails to live up to its promises.
They actually are trying to give these people a message that its actually positive feature to cheat.
So why to cheat,maybe the answer these days is "because its cool or hip"
Can't really disagree, I'm just glad more people are seeing some of these cash-shop items for what are, they are exactly that, "cheats". No different than entering a code for convenience in a single player game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Steroids are considered cheating. Supplements are considered not.
But what about supplements that give the same effect as steroids? What about steroids that aren't tested for? What about equipment that you can afford because you're rich that your opponent can't because their poor?
Basketball players take pay cuts to play with LeBron James so they can win a championship. Is that cheating?
Players stack to the most populated servers so they can win WvW/RvR every week. Is that cheating?
What about the player who plays the fotm class every month knowing he's got an advantage over others. Is that cheating?
The firm line has to be set somewhere. Myself, I see the line at the use of 3rd party. Any program, service or other that would require the use of an external source not available in game is cheating and should be punished.
Now that being said, anything in game is perfectly legit. There is no such thing as an exploit. I'll say it again and with caps, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EXPLOIT. If it's in the game, it's in the game.
Well naturally cheating only matters in online games because you affect others.
I some what agree that if it's in the game,it's there and cannot be called an exploit however.......
There is always a code of ethics,you know or should know when something is just not right.I will use an extreme,say for example you clicked a players name and all a sudden got all their personal information.You can't say well it's there so it is ok that i have it,you SHOULD report the problem.
An example closer to real gaming is one that has happened in many games because of bad code.Players would attain a VERY rare item but through exploits were able to duplicate them.Now ANYONE with half a brain knows that it was not intended you get TWO of those items any way other than the way you got the first item.
Then we have a MILD exploit ,likely from just real lazy game design on behalf of SOE.They created drops that were NOT meant to be traded or sold.However what players would do is just sit on the drop,not loot roll for it,one player disbands then spams chat with a sell price.Then that player would run to join the party and bid on the item they never played a single part in getting.
Bottom line is we know the ethics behind how we play,we know what is right and wrong.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Never really understood why people want to cheat when there is no money involved so in a game it can't be greed its probably more down to immaturity or wanting to appear to be good at something because they feel inadequate in some way in real life .
Now cheating when there money financial gain involved thats plain greed and thats something I can understand . If I had a Delorian with a flux capacitor or a TARDIS I would be more than happy to go a couple of days into the future to get the winning lottery numbers .
I cheated early on in MMOs because frankly I didn't know the difference. In Asheron's Call, I learned to write some awesome botting macros which was an accomplishment in its self because I'm an idiot in that regard. Writing macros was as challenging as playing the game and I was proud of myself when I got it to work. Being my first MMO and all, it took me awhile to realize that this wasn't acceptable behavior and I stopped. I'm normally one to stay away from exploits but have taken advantage of them with a group in a dungeon on occasion. Doesn't feel right though and I usually say something and leave group. At this point, I don't want to risk a ban and frankly my conscience gets the better of me.
I don't think I would ever take advantage of a serious exploit such as item dupping, land hacking, etc where it could have a drastic impact on the economy. One fellow in my ArcheAge guild became obscenely rich overnight due to an exploit. He bragged about it, got a week ban, and was back playing in no time. That really bothered me.
I know myself when it comes to cheating. The moment I do it, it ruins the game experience for me. Did it once in a single player game and my time came to an abrupt close.
Unfortunately many people cheat because failure they feel (consciously or unconsciously) somehow represents to them that they are less of a person in some way. It's a shame, but psychologically, their enjoyment is often tied to 'being the best', 'being better than others' or 'winning', and that often leads to a win-at-all-costs mentality, which often leads to cheating when things get hard, or even just whenever the opportunity presents itself.
If one wants to put it very simply: Cheating evolves out of a players fear; a fear that they're not good enough in some way.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Everyone cheats and lies just to different degrees. Most think nothing of cheating in a game. I have even heard the most honest person I know get upset when they missed an exploit in a game.
Hardly. What would be the point of cheating in a game?
I play games to challenge myself and cheating will take away any fun from beating something hard, particularly whn I defeat another player who have the odds in his/her favor.
It is simple: people who suck and have no intention of trying to better themselves cheat.
Of course in a singleplayer game you can do anything you want but I still don't see any point of cheating there either. And considering how simple MMOs are today you must suck really hard to need to cheat.
Cheating is a part of life, deal with it. You could be cheating and not even realize it. Case in point, shortcuts to get you work done faster on the job. You can cheat in a game of Battlefield 3 or 4 legally and it's still fair. Matter if fact Dice even gives you some cheats. One being the sniper having a telling glare on a high powered scope. Sure it doesn't help the person sniping. but it sure gives you a helping hand in spotting someone who's suppose to go unnoticed. Another one is being able to some how throwing the serve lag in your favor. At some points in both game I would get killed by players before I could even spawn. Or killed just as I spawn. I cheat in games multiplayer too, but not the illegal cheats just one built into a game or some exploits in areas where the player has the advantage. But do I win nope. not in the least bit. I still lose. I just play to annoy players with long running kill streaks or players that constantly kill me. I don't play FPS any more they're just too crappy now. I play mmos but I avoid pvp. JUst because I'm always at a constant disadvantage. In pvp players with pvp gear should be in a match with player with pvp gear. That way the matches are fair. But it's not. Players with pvp gear vs players that don't is pretty much a cheat. It's legal and fair. You all can say get the points or money to get the gear. But yet and still you have to go through the same player to get said gear to compete. And don't say team work, because that term hardly exist in an mmo nowdays. The same could be said for a FPS. FPS have implemented systems in them that make wanting to cooperate anti conducive to your own score. So when it comes to cheating, fair and unfair cheats are their. Weather you use them on purpose, unintentional or not at all is on the person. And getting better isn't the point, sometime you cant play as long as you want and as hard as you want. But most people wont show improvement. Play or dont play, thats all their is to it.
I've cheated before in pab and what I found is it improved my gameplay after I stopped using the cheats I was better then before because I learnt things about the missions and the tactics and rememberd them after stopping heating I was able to use those tactics and now I'm a good player without cheats
I have always believed folks have a bar for what they consider cheating, and that bar slides based on what they find acceptable themselves but one thing always will hold true
folks want to cheat but don't want others to cheat or have same ability to because then the cheat becomes useless to them.
in mmo pve I could care less what anyone else does , in any part of a game where you are challenging yourself or in a competitive environment to me cheating is wrong because you are not proving you are good you are just proving you can cheat good.
however , I also feel if there is cheats everyone should be forced to use them that way it would be counter productive to invent more cheats when everyone has the same ability's the cheaters would go away , my proof? one guy starts farming a item no one else has found he makes a lot first then when more folks realize it his profits go down and he moves on same with cheating once everyone has the cheat it becomes less popular to folks who want to exploit.
now I know some are saying omg it would ruin a game , would it?
explain why because if a dev took a hackers hack and gave to everyone in the game then the folks making the hacks wouldn't make money and would soon realize that it wasn't worth there time if the devs was just going to give it all away .
Some lead and some follow I prefer to stand beside!
Reading the replies to this thread made me check the moon phase... nope, not a full moon...weird.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Great topic, Grak. I'm with you and Loke (from the replies) on this; cheating, the type that skews competition, is absolutely bad behaviour. Moreover, it's part of the reason we can't have nice things in our MMORPGs. It's part of the reason that games are overly streamlined and restrictive--to curtail the greed and grief of not only the shameless and selfish but also the apathetic and unmindful.
Full disclosure: I've used exploits to an extent that I felt I could rationalize. And I'm not sure my reasons could stand up to proper scrutiny; however, I have not and would not use cheats or exploits in competitive play. I realize that there's a broad area of interpretation that some might take liberty with there, but I think most of us could probably agree on certain types of gameplay within which it would be at least problematic if not downright unethical to use cheats or exploits to personal advantage.
I think we should respect the game and our opponents enough to allow as much of pure gameplay to decide outcomes as possible.
Originally posted by Ludwik Cheating is entirely subjective.
Steroids are considered cheating. Supplements are considered not.
would certainly hope you know why steroids isnt legal, as a way to giving yourself a performance boost, it have nothing to do with cheating versus not cheating.
Originally posted by Ludwik Now that being said, anything in game is perfectly legit. There is no such thing as an exploit. I'll say it again and with caps, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EXPLOIT. If it's in the game, it's in the game.
Yea right.... I shouldn't kick people in the face, but I can do it... So why not do it? Screw moral and rules... After all, it's their fault if they put their heads in front of my foot...
in a PvP or PvE setting, many players want to be more powerful than their enemy, no matter the way they go about it
It could be by buying things in a cash shop, hacking or cheating the game in some way or any of the other ways there is a method to get ahead of others
It is simply the nature of many, it isnt about being fair its about the end result "i won, gratz me" and that does not just exist in the gaming world but throughout life
What most cheaters don't realize is that they destroy entire games with their behavior. I loved counterstrike but i quit it because there where to many cheaters/aim bots at some point. I don't mind lossing but i hate lossing from lossers who can't even play the freaking game. People who could see trough walls and all that.
APB i really liked a lot, i guess me and my friends where the select few who actualy loved that game. But the hackers completely destroyed it. Again it was impossible to win from people as they could see trough walls and teleport around like mad. It completely ruined the game for me and i know for many others as well.
Cheating in online games is destroying someones work. And people can say "They should do their best to prevent it" but hackers always find a way. And to much protection becomes a hinder for people who want to play legit.
In many of the free to play MMORPG's you don't need cheats. As someone said, the developers make sure people can cheat by buying stuff in the stores for real money. How often the PvP is completely unbalanced cause buying PvP gear for real money gives you a huge advantage over those who don't spend money on it. It also destroys the game.
People cheat. That fact is nothing new and just about everyone does it at some point in their life. Don’t believe me? Just ask the IRS. I don’t foresee by bringing up the topic of cheating in my column that I’ll be able to change anything. I don't imagine it will even prevent one of you from cheating in the future. I do, however, believe it is a dialogue worth having and hope you’ll humor me for a few minutes. I’m interested in your input.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Everyone cheats and lies just to different degrees. Most think nothing of cheating in a game. I have even heard the most honest person I know get upset when they missed an exploit in a game.
Uh... no.
Not "everyone does". Some people actually do understand why rules in games exist, see the value in following them, and do so.
I count myself among those people.
If I feel I have to cheat in a game, in order to circumvent actually playing it... then what the hell am I playing for?
I just play a game to have fun and when bored as a time sink. Even with things I can cheat at I just edit things so I can play it a different way or want something layed out differently. Never in MMORPGs otherwise why play. Not getting into the RMT issues as to why people actualy cheat which is to make money.
Comments
A lot of games where exploiting, botting, and cheating are rampant are often disreputable or unpopular games. When players feel that the publisher/devs don't care about their own game, players are more likely to cheat. I guess it's safe to assume that if even the owners of a game don't want to take the game anywhere, it's probably going to die eventually, so get your rocks off while you can since the servers will eventually close and you won't be playing anyway. Also, due to dev/publisher ineptness, it's usually easier to find cheats and exploits for their games.
Then there are fiercely competitive rat-race games, often of the cutthroat sandbox variety, even more often of asian origin that stress being #1. Players basically regard cheating and exploiting in these types of games as a necessary evil. Their thought process would probably be something along the lines of: "If I get away with it I'll keep playing with a big advantage. If I continue playing the rat-race normally I'll end up hating this game anyways so I might as well risk being banned." These MMOs have tons of RMT where players will often have out-of-game transactions of real money to get rare equipment. Because this sort of behavior isn't regarded as bannable, it's used to justify cheating/exploting/botting as well.
I don't really think cheaters and exploiters care about being the best or better than other people. If they really wanted to be recognized as #1 then they wouldn't risk cheating and exploiting since all it would take would be a single ban to destroy their reputation and efforts. They might use a separate IP and account to do their cheating with in a way that somehow benefits their main but that's a rare case. Most cheaters simply don't care about their reputation because they have nothing invested in the game or the community. The currently popular style of Community Management pandering to an echo-chamber and being super placating and positive is disgusting and only encourages dissidents and transgressive players to cheat and disrupt. There's nothing a developer or community can do to force a player to be invested in a game or community. There will always be cheaters who want to waste some money and cheat for fun in a game until they get banned. Even in South Korea, where they ban based on social security numbers, there are still people who try to cheat (with fake SSNs).
Some people just want to watch the world burn. You'd have to get those people to love their respective worlds more than they want to indulge their appetites, but that won't happen within a pandering, disingenuous, and often corrupt industry that habitually fails to live up to its promises.
Can't really disagree, I'm just glad more people are seeing some of these cash-shop items for what are, they are exactly that, "cheats". No different than entering a code for convenience in a single player game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Steroids are considered cheating.
Supplements are considered not.
But what about supplements that give the same effect as steroids? What about steroids that aren't tested for? What about equipment that you can afford because you're rich that your opponent can't because their poor?
Basketball players take pay cuts to play with LeBron James so they can win a championship. Is that cheating?
Players stack to the most populated servers so they can win WvW/RvR every week. Is that cheating?
What about the player who plays the fotm class every month knowing he's got an advantage over others. Is that cheating?
The firm line has to be set somewhere. Myself, I see the line at the use of 3rd party. Any program, service or other that would require the use of an external source not available in game is cheating and should be punished.
Now that being said, anything in game is perfectly legit. There is no such thing as an exploit. I'll say it again and with caps, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EXPLOIT. If it's in the game, it's in the game.
Well naturally cheating only matters in online games because you affect others.
I some what agree that if it's in the game,it's there and cannot be called an exploit however.......
There is always a code of ethics,you know or should know when something is just not right.I will use an extreme,say for example you clicked a players name and all a sudden got all their personal information.You can't say well it's there so it is ok that i have it,you SHOULD report the problem.
An example closer to real gaming is one that has happened in many games because of bad code.Players would attain a VERY rare item but through exploits were able to duplicate them.Now ANYONE with half a brain knows that it was not intended you get TWO of those items any way other than the way you got the first item.
Then we have a MILD exploit ,likely from just real lazy game design on behalf of SOE.They created drops that were NOT meant to be traded or sold.However what players would do is just sit on the drop,not loot roll for it,one player disbands then spams chat with a sell price.Then that player would run to join the party and bid on the item they never played a single part in getting.
Bottom line is we know the ethics behind how we play,we know what is right and wrong.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Never really understood why people want to cheat when there is no money involved so in a game it can't be greed its probably more down to immaturity or wanting to appear to be good at something because they feel inadequate in some way in real life .
Now cheating when there money financial gain involved thats plain greed and thats something I can understand . If I had a Delorian with a flux capacitor or a TARDIS I would be more than happy to go a couple of days into the future to get the winning lottery numbers .
I cheated early on in MMOs because frankly I didn't know the difference. In Asheron's Call, I learned to write some awesome botting macros which was an accomplishment in its self because I'm an idiot in that regard. Writing macros was as challenging as playing the game and I was proud of myself when I got it to work. Being my first MMO and all, it took me awhile to realize that this wasn't acceptable behavior and I stopped. I'm normally one to stay away from exploits but have taken advantage of them with a group in a dungeon on occasion. Doesn't feel right though and I usually say something and leave group. At this point, I don't want to risk a ban and frankly my conscience gets the better of me.
I don't think I would ever take advantage of a serious exploit such as item dupping, land hacking, etc where it could have a drastic impact on the economy. One fellow in my ArcheAge guild became obscenely rich overnight due to an exploit. He bragged about it, got a week ban, and was back playing in no time. That really bothered me.
I know myself when it comes to cheating. The moment I do it, it ruins the game experience for me. Did it once in a single player game and my time came to an abrupt close.
Whenever there is an incentive to win in a competitive affair, a certain percentage of the population will always cheat. Always.
I suggest, for the OP's reading pleasure, the book Freakonomics by Levitt and Dubner.
Unfortunately many people cheat because failure they feel (consciously or unconsciously) somehow represents to them that they are less of a person in some way. It's a shame, but psychologically, their enjoyment is often tied to 'being the best', 'being better than others' or 'winning', and that often leads to a win-at-all-costs mentality, which often leads to cheating when things get hard, or even just whenever the opportunity presents itself.
If one wants to put it very simply: Cheating evolves out of a players fear; a fear that they're not good enough in some way.
Cheating is a part of life, deal with it. You could be cheating and not even realize it. Case in point, shortcuts to get you work done faster on the job. You can cheat in a game of Battlefield 3 or 4 legally and it's still fair. Matter if fact Dice even gives you some cheats. One being the sniper having a telling glare on a high powered scope. Sure it doesn't help the person sniping. but it sure gives you a helping hand in spotting someone who's suppose to go unnoticed. Another one is being able to some how throwing the serve lag in your favor. At some points in both game I would get killed by players before I could even spawn. Or killed just as I spawn. I cheat in games multiplayer too, but not the illegal cheats just one built into a game or some exploits in areas where the player has the advantage. But do I win nope. not in the least bit. I still lose. I just play to annoy players with long running kill streaks or players that constantly kill me. I don't play FPS any more they're just too crappy now. I play mmos but I avoid pvp. JUst because I'm always at a constant disadvantage. In pvp players with pvp gear should be in a match with player with pvp gear. That way the matches are fair. But it's not. Players with pvp gear vs players that don't is pretty much a cheat. It's legal and fair. You all can say get the points or money to get the gear. But yet and still you have to go through the same player to get said gear to compete. And don't say team work, because that term hardly exist in an mmo nowdays. The same could be said for a FPS. FPS have implemented systems in them that make wanting to cooperate anti conducive to your own score. So when it comes to cheating, fair and unfair cheats are their. Weather you use them on purpose, unintentional or not at all is on the person. And getting better isn't the point, sometime you cant play as long as you want and as hard as you want. But most people wont show improvement. Play or dont play, thats all their is to it.
I have always believed folks have a bar for what they consider cheating, and that bar slides based on what they find acceptable themselves but one thing always will hold true
folks want to cheat but don't want others to cheat or have same ability to because then the cheat becomes useless to them.
in mmo pve I could care less what anyone else does , in any part of a game where you are challenging yourself or in a competitive environment to me cheating is wrong because you are not proving you are good you are just proving you can cheat good.
however , I also feel if there is cheats everyone should be forced to use them that way it would be counter productive to invent more cheats when everyone has the same ability's the cheaters would go away , my proof? one guy starts farming a item no one else has found he makes a lot first then when more folks realize it his profits go down and he moves on same with cheating once everyone has the cheat it becomes less popular to folks who want to exploit.
now I know some are saying omg it would ruin a game , would it?
explain why because if a dev took a hackers hack and gave to everyone in the game then the folks making the hacks wouldn't make money and would soon realize that it wasn't worth there time if the devs was just going to give it all away .
Some lead and some follow I prefer to stand beside!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Great topic, Grak. I'm with you and Loke (from the replies) on this; cheating, the type that skews competition, is absolutely bad behaviour. Moreover, it's part of the reason we can't have nice things in our MMORPGs. It's part of the reason that games are overly streamlined and restrictive--to curtail the greed and grief of not only the shameless and selfish but also the apathetic and unmindful.
Full disclosure: I've used exploits to an extent that I felt I could rationalize. And I'm not sure my reasons could stand up to proper scrutiny; however, I have not and would not use cheats or exploits in competitive play. I realize that there's a broad area of interpretation that some might take liberty with there, but I think most of us could probably agree on certain types of gameplay within which it would be at least problematic if not downright unethical to use cheats or exploits to personal advantage.
I think we should respect the game and our opponents enough to allow as much of pure gameplay to decide outcomes as possible.
would certainly hope you know why steroids isnt legal, as a way to giving yourself a performance boost, it have nothing to do with cheating versus not cheating.
Yea right.... I shouldn't kick people in the face, but I can do it... So why not do it? Screw moral and rules... After all, it's their fault if they put their heads in front of my foot...
"Vidis Fodidis Est"
Yup. +1
in a PvP or PvE setting, many players want to be more powerful than their enemy, no matter the way they go about it
It could be by buying things in a cash shop, hacking or cheating the game in some way or any of the other ways there is a method to get ahead of others
It is simply the nature of many, it isnt about being fair its about the end result "i won, gratz me" and that does not just exist in the gaming world but throughout life
What most cheaters don't realize is that they destroy entire games with their behavior. I loved counterstrike but i quit it because there where to many cheaters/aim bots at some point. I don't mind lossing but i hate lossing from lossers who can't even play the freaking game. People who could see trough walls and all that.
APB i really liked a lot, i guess me and my friends where the select few who actualy loved that game. But the hackers completely destroyed it. Again it was impossible to win from people as they could see trough walls and teleport around like mad. It completely ruined the game for me and i know for many others as well.
Cheating in online games is destroying someones work. And people can say "They should do their best to prevent it" but hackers always find a way. And to much protection becomes a hinder for people who want to play legit.
In many of the free to play MMORPG's you don't need cheats. As someone said, the developers make sure people can cheat by buying stuff in the stores for real money. How often the PvP is completely unbalanced cause buying PvP gear for real money gives you a huge advantage over those who don't spend money on it. It also destroys the game.
Over here they got the saying -translated to English- ; "being honest takes the longest."
As far as the irs/government is concerned: why being honest after you find out that same government are the biggest cheats in existence?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The funny thing is... someone accomplishes none of those things by cheating.
Uh... no.
Not "everyone does". Some people actually do understand why rules in games exist, see the value in following them, and do so.
I count myself among those people.
If I feel I have to cheat in a game, in order to circumvent actually playing it... then what the hell am I playing for?
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.