Originally posted by Wraithclaws Don't you think NA players became asking for more and want to spend less? Because anything they call P2W nowadays.. I notice a group of players jumping from a hype to another, being toxic and trying to ruin those games.. I don't think "Blade and Soul" or "Black Desert" is a "crap" P2W I just found weird that in the last ~3years all developers launch games in Russia, before USA.
They can keep their crap games over there.
Like the game in the West are any better lol, typical hypocrit doesn't realise that games over here are just as much p2w and as crappy. I'll be paying Bless and Blake Desert until Patheaon hopefully comes out. What have you got to look forward to when it comes to MMOs in the West.
Don't you think NA players became asking for more and want to spend less? Because anything they call P2W nowadays..
I notice a group of players jumping from a hype to another, being toxic and trying to ruin those games..
I don't think "Blade and Soul" or "Black Desert" is a "crap" P2W
I just found weird that in the last ~3years all developers launch games in Russia, before USA.
They can keep their crap games over there.
Like the game in the West are any better lol, typical hypocrit doesn't realise that games over here are just as much p2w and ask crappy. I'll be paying Bless and Blake Desert until Patheaon hopefully comes out. What have you got to look forward to when it comes to MMOs in the West.
Some games, yes. Not all though.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Originally posted by SavageHorizon Originally posted by Fearum Originally posted by Wraithclaws Don't you think NA players became asking for more and want to spend less? Because anything they call P2W nowadays.. I notice a group of players jumping from a hype to another, being toxic and trying to ruin those games.. I don't think "Blade and Soul" or "Black Desert" is a "crap" P2W I just found weird that in the last ~3years all developers launch games in Russia, before USA.
They can keep their crap games over there.
Like the game in the West are any better lol, typical hypocrit doesn't realise that games over here are just as much p2w and ask crappy. I'll be paying Bless and Blake Desert until Patheaon hopefully comes out. What have you got to look forward to when it comes to MMOs in the West.
Some games, yes. Not all though.
And the same goes for Asia. They have as much crappy games as each other in be in no doubt that games in the West are as much P2w as Asia.
If you know about korean/asian mmorpg you will notice that lately, they release games @ Russia before than USA.
I can say Archeage, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge(I know dev is russian).
What reason make developers think twice before releasing a title at USA? Some of them will prob NEVER be released here.
Is it players? We have alot of trolls that want to play, usually for free, or spend almost NO money. Everything is a reason to yell "P2W" and try to force ppl leave (forums/reddit) this or that game (Archeage was the last I've played)
I can say about Icarus Online and Bless (between alot of games) that developers are really thinking ALOT before going to NA market
Is NA market profitable as 5 years ago?
There are some erroneous conclusions here
1. NA is NOT a problem - it is FAR more profitable than Russian or Chinese market - even with lower playerbase NA/EU player spends a LOT more on average - equalling 100s of russian or chinese players. Just because another region gets it first it does not mean that NA/EU is a problem of any sort - it means the other regions is a lot easier to implement - so you get the least complex/easiest regions FIRST - save the most complicated for last.
2. Russia has very lax laws regulating online purchases and online gaming- there is no PCI compliance that US/EU - so standing up an online game in RU and processing online payments is a lot simpler - which is why it's done first.
3. NA market is a hell of a lot more competitive - so NA/EU publishers are 1) - very picky and 2) want to make sure that it's worth their time and money - this take a lot longer - very few NA publishers would jump on a new game with any kind of speed.
4. Western playerbase is a lot more demanding and expecting a very polished product and online experience in general - again getting it done "right" - takes time.
Bottom line - just because we don't get it first is not an indication of a problem - it is an indication of studios not wanting screw up a release and lose out on the biggest cash cow playerbase in the world.
1- I would say no, I'm not sure about Russian but definitely chinese market is WAY more profitable than US+EU+Russia all together, you have no idea how much chinese players spend.
2- I don't know about US laws regulating online purchases, players say alot about it when complaining about RNG boxes and usually NA publishers says "bleh" (really you should play archeage NA lol)
3- I agree about NA competition, maybe US has less players than Russia today and I notice that NA players complain alot, about everything.. Its a hard customer, at least
So It's a hell of a market, with trolls, spoiled kids that want everything for free and with no effort. You save 90% of players but those 10% make it not worth, for most publishers/developers lol
Seriously! So, you're telling me that a generally poor country (talking about the general population) is spending and has the ability to spend more than a wealthy one. The average income in China for a family was 26,955 yuan that is the equivalent of $4326.02 USD. That's less then I make in a month and it's their entire yearly salary. I could spend an entire Chinese salary on gaming in a year and not really give a shit if I wanted to.
So, please can you explain the economics to me, as I find it very hard to believe?
It only lists Asia-Pacific, not specifically China, but the revenues in AP are 3 times that of the US.
There's actually a really good reason for that, too. First off, people in North America, my self included, are tight-wads. It's a matter of value perception. Whenever anything goes up in a cash shop, a typical westerner will yell a scream "foul" or "P2W!" or something like that. In AP, they have systems which are explicitly P2W and it's quite fine.
Westerners complain about DLC, too. When Destiny was released, the fact that there were placeholders in the game for add-on content from the beta that wasn't there in the release was just too much for people to comprehend. I saw brains exploding all over the place. It's actually quite funny, though, like people believe that every company who releases quarterly DLC doesn't already have the majority of that work done at release or something. Like they start from scratch every 3 months. Shoot, there's probably 3 months of testing that goes into a piece of DLC.
Anyway, it's more the value proposition that I feel like westerners don't "get" fully. Not yet, anyway. We'll go out and spend $8 on a $0.10 bag of popcorn to see a movie with, and that's something we simply can't do without. However, as soon as someone asks us to spend $5 to get a mount or a full set of armour that would, otherwise, take us time to acquire, it's like the end of the world.
If you know about korean/asian mmorpg you will notice that lately, they release games @ Russia before than USA.
I can say Archeage, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge(I know dev is russian).
What reason make developers think twice before releasing a title at USA? Some of them will prob NEVER be released here.
Is it players? We have alot of trolls that want to play, usually for free, or spend almost NO money. Everything is a reason to yell "P2W" and try to force ppl leave (forums/reddit) this or that game (Archeage was the last I've played)
I can say about Icarus Online and Bless (between alot of games) that developers are really thinking ALOT before going to NA market
Is NA market profitable as 5 years ago?
There are some erroneous conclusions here
1. NA is NOT a problem - it is FAR more profitable than Russian or Chinese market - even with lower playerbase NA/EU player spends a LOT more on average - equalling 100s of russian or chinese players. Just because another region gets it first it does not mean that NA/EU is a problem of any sort - it means the other regions is a lot easier to implement - so you get the least complex/easiest regions FIRST - save the most complicated for last.
2. Russia has very lax laws regulating online purchases and online gaming- there is no PCI compliance that US/EU - so standing up an online game in RU and processing online payments is a lot simpler - which is why it's done first.
3. NA market is a hell of a lot more competitive - so NA/EU publishers are 1) - very picky and 2) want to make sure that it's worth their time and money - this take a lot longer - very few NA publishers would jump on a new game with any kind of speed.
4. Western playerbase is a lot more demanding and expecting a very polished product and online experience in general - again getting it done "right" - takes time.
Bottom line - just because we don't get it first is not an indication of a problem - it is an indication of studios not wanting screw up a release and lose out on the biggest cash cow playerbase in the world.
1- I would say no, I'm not sure about Russian but definitely chinese market is WAY more profitable than US+EU+Russia all together, you have no idea how much chinese players spend.
2- I don't know about US laws regulating online purchases, players say alot about it when complaining about RNG boxes and usually NA publishers says "bleh" (really you should play archeage NA lol)
3- I agree about NA competition, maybe US has less players than Russia today and I notice that NA players complain alot, about everything.. Its a hard customer, at least
So It's a hell of a market, with trolls, spoiled kids that want everything for free and with no effort. You save 90% of players but those 10% make it not worth, for most publishers/developers lol
Seriously! So, you're telling me that a generally poor country (talking about the general population) is spending and has the ability to spend more than a wealthy one. The average income in China for a family was 26,955 yuan that is the equivalent of $4326.02 USD. That's less then I make in a month and it's their entire yearly salary. I could spend an entire Chinese salary on gaming in a year and not really give a shit if I wanted to.
So, please can you explain the economics to me, as I find it very hard to believe?
It only lists Asia-Pacific, not specifically China, but the revenues in AP are 3 times that of the US.
There's actually a really good reason for that, too. First off, people in North America, my self included, are tight-wads. It's a matter of value perception. Whenever anything goes up in a cash shop, a typical westerner will yell a scream "foul" or "P2W!" or something like that. In AP, they have systems which are explicitly P2W and it's quite fine.
Westerners complain about DLC, too. When Destiny was released, the fact that there were placeholders in the game for add-on content from the beta that wasn't there in the release was just too much for people to comprehend. I saw brains exploding all over the place. It's actually quite funny, though, like people believe that every company who releases quarterly DLC doesn't already have the majority of that work done at release or something. Like they start from scratch every 3 months. Shoot, there's probably 3 months of testing that goes into a piece of DLC.
Anyway, it's more the value proposition that I feel like westerners don't "get" fully. Not yet, anyway. We'll go out and spend $8 on a $0.10 bag of popcorn to see a movie with, and that's something we simply can't do without. However, as soon as someone asks us to spend $5 to get a mount or a full set of armour that would, otherwise, take us time to acquire, it's like the end of the world.
article really isn't helpful to the argument because its about revenue not how much people are spending in a region or country.
All gw2 revenue(global) would be reported in the SEA region for example, because its owned by a NCsoft. same with other games like FFXIV, Nexon games, etc.
also they are including other genre with a very loose definitions of an mmo. look at the top 10 pc/mmo list only 3 out of the 10 games mentioned would be considered a traditional mmo....which is what we are comparing in this instance(the p2p vs f2p argument also falls flat because of this.).
long story short the article says nothing about spending habits of individual regions let alone countries.
the reason many of the game come to the west last is because of 2 reasons
1) differences in monitization methods, necessary content hooks, security are vastly different between NA/EU and SEA/WEA causing longer localization times between the 2 macro regions. in order for an eastern game to do well in NA/EU it would have drastically change its payment model while a conversion from say Korean to Russian is basically just a matter of translation of language. this was primarily why AA and black desert hit Russia before the West. Its also the reason AA has hemorrhaged players in the west(the localization didn't go far enough) and why Tera from a localization standpoint is viewed as a success.
2) The market in the NA/EU is more competitive. The Eastern publishers use the east as a testing ground before alotting resources to a lengthy westernization process. if the game can't compete in the east....its going to definitely get stomped into the ground in west. Throw away mobile games,quasi/direct clone mmos, and p2w games are a very real thing in the east that simply don't fly in the west due to lack of quality.
there are also less people in NA/EU and while they may more individually; the players tend to stick to fewer games. Meaning the Eastern publishers have to decide which games they want to port over. the SEA region includes like 5/6th of the worlds population meaning they can get away with the quantity over quality marketing mentality that just isn't functionally possible in the west. A perfect example would be blade and soul....NCsoft didnt make a huge effort to bring it to the west because it would directly compete with both GW2 and Wildstar.
If you know about korean/asian mmorpg you will notice that lately, they release games @ Russia before than USA.
I can say Archeage, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge(I know dev is russian).
What reason make developers think twice before releasing a title at USA? Some of them will prob NEVER be released here.
Is it players? We have alot of trolls that want to play, usually for free, or spend almost NO money. Everything is a reason to yell "P2W" and try to force ppl leave (forums/reddit) this or that game (Archeage was the last I've played)
I can say about Icarus Online and Bless (between alot of games) that developers are really thinking ALOT before going to NA market
Is NA market profitable as 5 years ago?
There are some erroneous conclusions here
1. NA is NOT a problem - it is FAR more profitable than Russian or Chinese market - even with lower playerbase NA/EU player spends a LOT more on average - equalling 100s of russian or chinese players. Just because another region gets it first it does not mean that NA/EU is a problem of any sort - it means the other regions is a lot easier to implement - so you get the least complex/easiest regions FIRST - save the most complicated for last.
2. Russia has very lax laws regulating online purchases and online gaming- there is no PCI compliance that US/EU - so standing up an online game in RU and processing online payments is a lot simpler - which is why it's done first.
3. NA market is a hell of a lot more competitive - so NA/EU publishers are 1) - very picky and 2) want to make sure that it's worth their time and money - this take a lot longer - very few NA publishers would jump on a new game with any kind of speed.
4. Western playerbase is a lot more demanding and expecting a very polished product and online experience in general - again getting it done "right" - takes time.
Bottom line - just because we don't get it first is not an indication of a problem - it is an indication of studios not wanting screw up a release and lose out on the biggest cash cow playerbase in the world.
1- I would say no, I'm not sure about Russian but definitely chinese market is WAY more profitable than US+EU+Russia all together, you have no idea how much chinese players spend.
2- I don't know about US laws regulating online purchases, players say alot about it when complaining about RNG boxes and usually NA publishers says "bleh" (really you should play archeage NA lol)
3- I agree about NA competition, maybe US has less players than Russia today and I notice that NA players complain alot, about everything.. Its a hard customer, at least
So It's a hell of a market, with trolls, spoiled kids that want everything for free and with no effort. You save 90% of players but those 10% make it not worth, for most publishers/developers lol
Seriously! So, you're telling me that a generally poor country (talking about the general population) is spending and has the ability to spend more than a wealthy one. The average income in China for a family was 26,955 yuan that is the equivalent of $4326.02 USD. That's less then I make in a month and it's their entire yearly salary. I could spend an entire Chinese salary on gaming in a year and not really give a shit if I wanted to.
So, please can you explain the economics to me, as I find it very hard to believe?
It only lists Asia-Pacific, not specifically China, but the revenues in AP are 3 times that of the US.
There's actually a really good reason for that, too. First off, people in North America, my self included, are tight-wads. It's a matter of value perception. Whenever anything goes up in a cash shop, a typical westerner will yell a scream "foul" or "P2W!" or something like that. In AP, they have systems which are explicitly P2W and it's quite fine.
Westerners complain about DLC, too. When Destiny was released, the fact that there were placeholders in the game for add-on content from the beta that wasn't there in the release was just too much for people to comprehend. I saw brains exploding all over the place. It's actually quite funny, though, like people believe that every company who releases quarterly DLC doesn't already have the majority of that work done at release or something. Like they start from scratch every 3 months. Shoot, there's probably 3 months of testing that goes into a piece of DLC.
Anyway, it's more the value proposition that I feel like westerners don't "get" fully. Not yet, anyway. We'll go out and spend $8 on a $0.10 bag of popcorn to see a movie with, and that's something we simply can't do without. However, as soon as someone asks us to spend $5 to get a mount or a full set of armour that would, otherwise, take us time to acquire, it's like the end of the world.
article really isn't helpful to the argument because its about revenue not how much people are spending in a region or country.
All gw2 revenue(global) would be reported in the SEA region for example, because its owned by a NCsoft. same with other games like FFXIV, Nexon games, etc.
also they are including other genre with a very loose definitions of an mmo. look at the top 10 pc/mmo list only 3 out of the 10 games mentioned would be considered a traditional mmo....which is what we are comparing in this instance(the p2p vs f2p argument also falls flat because of this.).
long story short the article says nothing about spending habits of individual regions let alone countries.
Really? I actually didn't see any mention of that. In fact, I'd find it very difficult to drum up a Billion dollars in revenues for South America. Moreover, I'd find it very difficult to believe that Russia along wouldn't generate more than $1 Billion. If I missed something, feel free to point out my oversight. Wouldn't be the first time.
Regardless of that, I would contend that the North American market is still a problem. I think it has the greatest amount of potential value, but the expectation is that they will be able to spend $50 on a new game, take it home, pop it in, and play it. The whole notion of DLC is contentious, even though we've, really, been doing it for years. Before we just called them expansion packs. I just find it very interesting that the fact that there is more transparency now, people seem to think that this is somehow new and/or greed-based, especially in the US. In fact, I would go as far as to say that paranoia about being scammed or ripped off is a big problem in North America. Not sure if it's always been that way or not, but it certainly seems pandemic (but always does from the outside looking in).
Anyway, the point is that monetizing games in NA is more difficult, and I think you got to that. Sure, there are more laws and red tape, but I think there are more societal issues that need to be overcome, too.
First, our consumer laws and attitudes do make chargebacks common and that does make it harder on companies. But that is the smallest of the three.
Two, the US and much of Europe is overly PC, although in different ways. It is getting harder and harder for companies to make games the way they see fit. And frankly the visual styling of games like ArcheAge, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge just doesn't fit the new puritanism.
Third, our economy is not in as good of shape as our media would have us believe with the amount of debt we have in relation to our GDP. The Russian economy is not great but it is growing better than ours and they are positioned better with China.
We are declining and out infrastructure is getting more and more out of date. The wrinkles are starting to show.
minimum wage for an unskilled laborer is around ~$10/hour in NA. That means the pimple faced teenager that has to be repeatedly told to quit staring at his stupid phone can make $80 in 1 day.
in Russia, the minimum monthly wage is around 92 EUR.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Before a game can be approved within a certain country that alone takes allot of time to go thru the proper channels. Then there's the "is the game worth it", gamecompany's are of course the easiest way to get your korean/asian game on the US market instead of investing in their own game infrastructure.
Overall it takes allot of time. don't forget all the laws attached especially in the US.
If you know about korean/asian mmorpg you will notice that lately, they release games @ Russia before than USA.
I can say Archeage, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge(I know dev is russian).
What reason make developers think twice before releasing a title at USA? Some of them will prob NEVER be released here.
Is it players? We have alot of trolls that want to play, usually for free, or spend almost NO money. Everything is a reason to yell "P2W" and try to force ppl leave (forums/reddit) this or that game (Archeage was the last I've played)
I can say about Icarus Online and Bless (between alot of games) that developers are really thinking ALOT before going to NA market
Is NA market profitable as 5 years ago?
There are some erroneous conclusions here
1. NA is NOT a problem - it is FAR more profitable than Russian or Chinese market - even with lower playerbase NA/EU player spends a LOT more on average - equalling 100s of russian or chinese players. Just because another region gets it first it does not mean that NA/EU is a problem of any sort - it means the other regions is a lot easier to implement - so you get the least complex/easiest regions FIRST - save the most complicated for last.
2. Russia has very lax laws regulating online purchases and online gaming- there is no PCI compliance that US/EU - so standing up an online game in RU and processing online payments is a lot simpler - which is why it's done first.
3. NA market is a hell of a lot more competitive - so NA/EU publishers are 1) - very picky and 2) want to make sure that it's worth their time and money - this take a lot longer - very few NA publishers would jump on a new game with any kind of speed.
4. Western playerbase is a lot more demanding and expecting a very polished product and online experience in general - again getting it done "right" - takes time.
Bottom line - just because we don't get it first is not an indication of a problem - it is an indication of studios not wanting screw up a release and lose out on the biggest cash cow playerbase in the world.
1- I would say no, I'm not sure about Russian but definitely chinese market is WAY more profitable than US+EU+Russia all together, you have no idea how much chinese players spend.
2- I don't know about US laws regulating online purchases, players say alot about it when complaining about RNG boxes and usually NA publishers says "bleh" (really you should play archeage NA lol)
3- I agree about NA competition, maybe US has less players than Russia today and I notice that NA players complain alot, about everything.. Its a hard customer, at least
So It's a hell of a market, with trolls, spoiled kids that want everything for free and with no effort. You save 90% of players but those 10% make it not worth, for most publishers/developers lol
Seriously! So, you're telling me that a generally poor country (talking about the general population) is spending and has the ability to spend more than a wealthy one. The average income in China for a family was 26,955 yuan that is the equivalent of $4326.02 USD. That's less then I make in a month and it's their entire yearly salary. I could spend an entire Chinese salary on gaming in a year and not really give a shit if I wanted to.
So, please can you explain the economics to me, as I find it very hard to believe?
It only lists Asia-Pacific, not specifically China, but the revenues in AP are 3 times that of the US.
There's actually a really good reason for that, too. First off, people in North America, my self included, are tight-wads. It's a matter of value perception. Whenever anything goes up in a cash shop, a typical westerner will yell a scream "foul" or "P2W!" or something like that. In AP, they have systems which are explicitly P2W and it's quite fine.
Westerners complain about DLC, too. When Destiny was released, the fact that there were placeholders in the game for add-on content from the beta that wasn't there in the release was just too much for people to comprehend. I saw brains exploding all over the place. It's actually quite funny, though, like people believe that every company who releases quarterly DLC doesn't already have the majority of that work done at release or something. Like they start from scratch every 3 months. Shoot, there's probably 3 months of testing that goes into a piece of DLC.
Anyway, it's more the value proposition that I feel like westerners don't "get" fully. Not yet, anyway. We'll go out and spend $8 on a $0.10 bag of popcorn to see a movie with, and that's something we simply can't do without. However, as soon as someone asks us to spend $5 to get a mount or a full set of armour that would, otherwise, take us time to acquire, it's like the end of the world.
article really isn't helpful to the argument because its about revenue not how much people are spending in a region or country.
All gw2 revenue(global) would be reported in the SEA region for example, because its owned by a NCsoft. same with other games like FFXIV, Nexon games, etc.
also they are including other genre with a very loose definitions of an mmo. look at the top 10 pc/mmo list only 3 out of the 10 games mentioned would be considered a traditional mmo....which is what we are comparing in this instance(the p2p vs f2p argument also falls flat because of this.).
long story short the article says nothing about spending habits of individual regions let alone countries.
Really? I actually didn't see any mention of that. In fact, I'd find it very difficult to drum up a Billion dollars in revenues for South America. Moreover, I'd find it very difficult to believe that Russia along wouldn't generate more than $1 Billion. If I missed something, feel free to point out my oversight. Wouldn't be the first time.
Regardless of that, I would contend that the North American market is still a problem. I think it has the greatest amount of potential value, but the expectation is that they will be able to spend $50 on a new game, take it home, pop it in, and play it. The whole notion of DLC is contentious, even though we've, really, been doing it for years. Before we just called them expansion packs. I just find it very interesting that the fact that there is more transparency now, people seem to think that this is somehow new and/or greed-based, especially in the US. In fact, I would go as far as to say that paranoia about being scammed or ripped off is a big problem in North America. Not sure if it's always been that way or not, but it certainly seems pandemic (but always does from the outside looking in).
Anyway, the point is that monetizing games in NA is more difficult, and I think you got to that. Sure, there are more laws and red tape, but I think there are more societal issues that need to be overcome, too.
the data from the article comes from 2 market analysis companies who get thier data comes from mostly 3rd party sources (banks, CC companies, online outlets, etc) and data from publically trading companies(Ncsoft, EA,etc). so its all reported by region that way. the revenue from south america could easily come from the mobil-esc browser games(or as the graph at the bottom puts it "resouce management" games) as well as localized publishers. As for Russia its not the economic power house people seem to think it(in general) and it doesn't have any truely big publishers like the NA or SEA regions. Its still doing amazing(has the highest f2p growth rate % on the graph) which seems to suggest that its more of a being late to the f2p party issue over anything else.
as for your comments about North America i don't think its a matter of scam paranoia and more of an issue of 1st world problems. The north american pc gaming market and mmo subset have to compete with other entertainment outlets more so then any other region so the percieved value of game has to be higher then it would be in other regions. combine this with questionable marketing practices that seem to be the norm now would result in difference in expectations. a similar example would be the japanese pc/mmo market(look at the CPA for client based games on the graph), because they also tend to have higher then average expectations when it comes to games.
Originally posted by Wraithclaws If you know about korean/asian mmorpg you will notice that lately, they release games @ Russia before than USA. I can say Archeage, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge(I know dev is russian). What reason make developers think twice before releasing a title at USA? Some of them will prob NEVER be released here. Is it players? We have alot of trolls that want to play, usually for free, or spend almost NO money. Everything is a reason to yell "P2W" and try to force ppl leave (forums/reddit) this or that game (Archeage was the last I've played) I can say about Icarus Online and Bless (between alot of games) that developers are really thinking ALOT before going to NA marketIs NA market profitable as 5 years ago?
There are some erroneous conclusions here1. NA is NOT a problem - it is FAR more profitable than Russian or Chinese market - even with lower playerbase NA/EU player spends a LOT more on average - equalling 100s of russian or chinese players. Just because another region gets it first it does not mean that NA/EU is a problem of any sort - it means the other regions is a lot easier to implement - so you get the least complex/easiest regions FIRST - save the most complicated for last.2. Russia has very lax laws regulating online purchases and online gaming- there is no PCI compliance that US/EU - so standing up an online game in RU and processing online payments is a lot simpler - which is why it's done first.3. NA market is a hell of a lot more competitive - so NA/EU publishers are 1) - very picky and 2) want to make sure that it's worth their time and money - this take a lot longer - very few NA publishers would jump on a new game with any kind of speed. 4. Western playerbase is a lot more demanding and expecting a very polished product and online experience in general - again getting it done "right" - takes time.Bottom line - just because we don't get it first is not an indication of a problem - it is an indication of studios not wanting screw up a release and lose out on the biggest cash cow playerbase in the world.
1- I would say no, I'm not sure about Russian but definitely chinese market is WAY more profitable than US+EU+Russia all together, you have no idea how much chinese players spend. 2- I don't know about US laws regulating online purchases, players say alot about it when complaining about RNG boxes and usually NA publishers says "bleh" (really you should play archeage NA lol) 3- I agree about NA competition, maybe US has less players than Russia today and I notice that NA players complain alot, about everything.. Its a hard customer, at least 4- Western playerbase complain alot, for my experience with MMORPG, mostly NA complains about cash shop items and call everything P2W in a game. They not only complain but also make topics at reddit and all forums about "you should not play this game" like this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/429225/WARNING-Stay-clear-of-Path-of-Exile.html So It's a hell of a market, with trolls, spoiled kids that want everything for free and with no effort. You save 90% of players but those 10% make it not worth, for most publishers/developers lol
Seriously! So, you're telling me that a generally poor country (talking about the general population) is spending and has the ability to spend more than a wealthy one. The average income in China for a family was 26,955 yuan that is the equivalent of $4326.02 USD. That's less then I make in a month and it's their entire yearly salary. I could spend an entire Chinese salary on gaming in a year and not really give a shit if I wanted to.
So, please can you explain the economics to me, as I find it very hard to believe?
They make more than that actually. The numbers can vary with but they make around $12k-$37k a year, in dollar terms. When the latest Iphone came out there was a black market for them in china going for about $1k each. So there's a lot of them that have money.
But besides that, the economics for you would be that the cost of living in china is much different than the US. You're making a false comparison assuming that the Chinese pay for the same price of goods and services as Americans, they don't. I would imagine it would be cheaper for the Chinese or Asians to pay for MMORPGs that were made in that region, plus there are probably millions more in that market than in the US.
Hence why those company look to aim for the Asian market than the US. I would assume that most Chinese gamers could not afford to pay for the sub fee of most the NA/EU MMORPGs, hence why outside of WoW not too many games that require some type of sub targets them. Plus there are some barriers and regulations that goes on for both countries.
all i want is an Asian mmorpg without grind, and has the production quality of WoW and GW2. The only thing close(or i should say on par with them) is FFXIV although its also grindy. So yeah, ill stay with FFXIV until a better asian mmorpg comes out.
I love the asian mmo aesthetic and art style but unfortunately they tend to have lower production quality, many are p2w, have generic storyline, and extremely grindy. If they manage to fix that ill take them any day over western mmos.
Simple, these games are P2W, and russian ppl like P2W games, in NA or EU games with this model ppl dont like it.
That's a big part of it. The culture is similar, the playstyles are similar, and F2P ges over better there than in NA.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think the main reason they go to Russia first is that Russian studio's have taken an interest in localization, whereas NA have not, other than Trion with AA. Black Desert will be NA localised by Daum themselves as case in point they didn't find anybody wanting to do it, and that will be what slows games getting to the western market if at all.
That said I think they style of games is not going to hold interest, only the shiny graphics, I hope I'm wrong on that but they seem to be lacking a bit of depth from what I've seen so far.
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They can keep their crap games over there.
Like the game in the West are any better lol, typical hypocrit doesn't realise that games over here are just as much p2w and as crappy. I'll be paying Bless and Blake Desert until Patheaon hopefully comes out. What have you got to look forward to when it comes to MMOs in the West.Some games, yes. Not all though.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
They can keep their crap games over there.
Like the game in the West are any better lol, typical hypocrit doesn't realise that games over here are just as much p2w and ask crappy. I'll be paying Bless and Blake Desert until Patheaon hopefully comes out. What have you got to look forward to when it comes to MMOs in the West.Some games, yes. Not all though.
And the same goes for Asia. They have as much crappy games as each other in be in no doubt that games in the West are as much P2w as Asia.Sure, check this out
It only lists Asia-Pacific, not specifically China, but the revenues in AP are 3 times that of the US.
There's actually a really good reason for that, too. First off, people in North America, my self included, are tight-wads. It's a matter of value perception. Whenever anything goes up in a cash shop, a typical westerner will yell a scream "foul" or "P2W!" or something like that. In AP, they have systems which are explicitly P2W and it's quite fine.
Westerners complain about DLC, too. When Destiny was released, the fact that there were placeholders in the game for add-on content from the beta that wasn't there in the release was just too much for people to comprehend. I saw brains exploding all over the place. It's actually quite funny, though, like people believe that every company who releases quarterly DLC doesn't already have the majority of that work done at release or something. Like they start from scratch every 3 months. Shoot, there's probably 3 months of testing that goes into a piece of DLC.
Anyway, it's more the value proposition that I feel like westerners don't "get" fully. Not yet, anyway. We'll go out and spend $8 on a $0.10 bag of popcorn to see a movie with, and that's something we simply can't do without. However, as soon as someone asks us to spend $5 to get a mount or a full set of armour that would, otherwise, take us time to acquire, it's like the end of the world.
Crazkanuk
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article really isn't helpful to the argument because its about revenue not how much people are spending in a region or country.
All gw2 revenue(global) would be reported in the SEA region for example, because its owned by a NCsoft. same with other games like FFXIV, Nexon games, etc.
also they are including other genre with a very loose definitions of an mmo. look at the top 10 pc/mmo list only 3 out of the 10 games mentioned would be considered a traditional mmo....which is what we are comparing in this instance(the p2p vs f2p argument also falls flat because of this.).
long story short the article says nothing about spending habits of individual regions let alone countries.
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as to the OP
the reason many of the game come to the west last is because of 2 reasons
1) differences in monitization methods, necessary content hooks, security are vastly different between NA/EU and SEA/WEA causing longer localization times between the 2 macro regions. in order for an eastern game to do well in NA/EU it would have drastically change its payment model while a conversion from say Korean to Russian is basically just a matter of translation of language. this was primarily why AA and black desert hit Russia before the West. Its also the reason AA has hemorrhaged players in the west(the localization didn't go far enough) and why Tera from a localization standpoint is viewed as a success.
2) The market in the NA/EU is more competitive. The Eastern publishers use the east as a testing ground before alotting resources to a lengthy westernization process. if the game can't compete in the east....its going to definitely get stomped into the ground in west. Throw away mobile games,quasi/direct clone mmos, and p2w games are a very real thing in the east that simply don't fly in the west due to lack of quality.
there are also less people in NA/EU and while they may more individually; the players tend to stick to fewer games. Meaning the Eastern publishers have to decide which games they want to port over. the SEA region includes like 5/6th of the worlds population meaning they can get away with the quantity over quality marketing mentality that just isn't functionally possible in the west. A perfect example would be blade and soul....NCsoft didnt make a huge effort to bring it to the west because it would directly compete with both GW2 and Wildstar.
Really? I actually didn't see any mention of that. In fact, I'd find it very difficult to drum up a Billion dollars in revenues for South America. Moreover, I'd find it very difficult to believe that Russia along wouldn't generate more than $1 Billion. If I missed something, feel free to point out my oversight. Wouldn't be the first time.
Regardless of that, I would contend that the North American market is still a problem. I think it has the greatest amount of potential value, but the expectation is that they will be able to spend $50 on a new game, take it home, pop it in, and play it. The whole notion of DLC is contentious, even though we've, really, been doing it for years. Before we just called them expansion packs. I just find it very interesting that the fact that there is more transparency now, people seem to think that this is somehow new and/or greed-based, especially in the US. In fact, I would go as far as to say that paranoia about being scammed or ripped off is a big problem in North America. Not sure if it's always been that way or not, but it certainly seems pandemic (but always does from the outside looking in).
Anyway, the point is that monetizing games in NA is more difficult, and I think you got to that. Sure, there are more laws and red tape, but I think there are more societal issues that need to be overcome, too.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Just wanted to say. Euro has been falling. $1 US = 0.94 Euro today. So the dollar is still weaker, but it's damn near equal.
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Three fold problem.
First, our consumer laws and attitudes do make chargebacks common and that does make it harder on companies. But that is the smallest of the three.
Two, the US and much of Europe is overly PC, although in different ways. It is getting harder and harder for companies to make games the way they see fit. And frankly the visual styling of games like ArcheAge, Black Desert, Blade and Soul and Skyforge just doesn't fit the new puritanism.
Third, our economy is not in as good of shape as our media would have us believe with the amount of debt we have in relation to our GDP. The Russian economy is not great but it is growing better than ours and they are positioned better with China.
We are declining and out infrastructure is getting more and more out of date. The wrinkles are starting to show.
All die, so die well.
minimum wage for an unskilled laborer is around ~$10/hour in NA. That means the pimple faced teenager that has to be repeatedly told to quit staring at his stupid phone can make $80 in 1 day.
in Russia, the minimum monthly wage is around 92 EUR.
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I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
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You need to double check your numbers. Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour.
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I don't consider it as a "PROBLEM"
Before a game can be approved within a certain country that alone takes allot of time to go thru the proper channels. Then there's the "is the game worth it", gamecompany's are of course the easiest way to get your korean/asian game on the US market instead of investing in their own game infrastructure.
Overall it takes allot of time. don't forget all the laws attached especially in the US.
the data from the article comes from 2 market analysis companies who get thier data comes from mostly 3rd party sources (banks, CC companies, online outlets, etc) and data from publically trading companies(Ncsoft, EA,etc). so its all reported by region that way. the revenue from south america could easily come from the mobil-esc browser games(or as the graph at the bottom puts it "resouce management" games) as well as localized publishers. As for Russia its not the economic power house people seem to think it(in general) and it doesn't have any truely big publishers like the NA or SEA regions. Its still doing amazing(has the highest f2p growth rate % on the graph) which seems to suggest that its more of a being late to the f2p party issue over anything else.
as for your comments about North America i don't think its a matter of scam paranoia and more of an issue of 1st world problems. The north american pc gaming market and mmo subset have to compete with other entertainment outlets more so then any other region so the percieved value of game has to be higher then it would be in other regions. combine this with questionable marketing practices that seem to be the norm now would result in difference in expectations. a similar example would be the japanese pc/mmo market(look at the CPA for client based games on the graph), because they also tend to have higher then average expectations when it comes to games.
They make more than that actually. The numbers can vary with but they make around $12k-$37k a year, in dollar terms. When the latest Iphone came out there was a black market for them in china going for about $1k each. So there's a lot of them that have money.
But besides that, the economics for you would be that the cost of living in china is much different than the US. You're making a false comparison assuming that the Chinese pay for the same price of goods and services as Americans, they don't. I would imagine it would be cheaper for the Chinese or Asians to pay for MMORPGs that were made in that region, plus there are probably millions more in that market than in the US.
Hence why those company look to aim for the Asian market than the US. I would assume that most Chinese gamers could not afford to pay for the sub fee of most the NA/EU MMORPGs, hence why outside of WoW not too many games that require some type of sub targets them. Plus there are some barriers and regulations that goes on for both countries.
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all i want is an Asian mmorpg without grind, and has the production quality of WoW and GW2. The only thing close(or i should say on par with them) is FFXIV although its also grindy. So yeah, ill stay with FFXIV until a better asian mmorpg comes out.
I love the asian mmo aesthetic and art style but unfortunately they tend to have lower production quality, many are p2w, have generic storyline, and extremely grindy. If they manage to fix that ill take them any day over western mmos.
That's a big part of it. The culture is similar, the playstyles are similar, and F2P ges over better there than in NA.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think the main reason they go to Russia first is that Russian studio's have taken an interest in localization, whereas NA have not, other than Trion with AA. Black Desert will be NA localised by Daum themselves as case in point they didn't find anybody wanting to do it, and that will be what slows games getting to the western market if at all.
That said I think they style of games is not going to hold interest, only the shiny graphics, I hope I'm wrong on that but they seem to be lacking a bit of depth from what I've seen so far.