The "CS items will never be as strong as the crafted items" statement is the first step to Pay to Win in an mmo. Thats what Trion did with Rift and started selling gear. It doesnt have to be epic gear to be pay to win, it has to be gear better than other gear at any level. Many people do pvp at low levels too so those gears sold do have advantage over them.
I hope ZoS is more competent and dont come up with the same nonsense, but pots themselves are not p2w unless they give dmg/defence buffs potions like many F2P do. EDIT: or if the cs potions heal more than crafted ones in pvp.
(go to minute 39 of the "Why Chinese Browser Games?" section)
It basically boiled down to this:
Pros:
More money and faster!
Cons:
Shorter game life! Lower player retention! Balance! Whales who enjoy open world PvP can potentially be a community disaster!
If that's not "bad" to someone, then.... good for them, I guess.
R2Games are the P2W incarnate, they release a new game monthly and its the same game with different skin and name and looks like the same people keep falling for it. All horrible P2W. Idk how people can support that. The funniest part is when they complain after seeing how these types of company dont care about their feedback. That is glorious.
(go to minute 39 of the "Why Chinese Browser Games?" section)
It basically boiled down to this:
Pros:
More money and faster!
Cons:
Shorter game life! Lower player retention! Balance! Whales who enjoy open world PvP can potentially be a community disaster!
If that's not "bad" to someone, then.... good for them, I guess.
R2Games are the P2W incarnate, they release a new game monthly and its the same game with different skin and name and looks like the same people keep falling for it. All horrible P2W. Idk how people can support that. The funniest part is when they complain after seeing how these types of company dont care about their feedback. That is glorious.
What I find gloriously hilarious is that R2 had the cajones to make that presentation public in the first place. It's like "Hey, our games are designed to give us more money by psychologically milking you at the cost of your game's life, balance, and player retention! What are you going to do about it?" and people STILL give them money.
.....but yes, that's there for those that think P2W is not bad. If a company that makes a huge amount of money off of P2W games (and thus, presumably studied the ramifications of them and how to market them down to a SCIENCE) is willing to publically state "More money! Less balance, lifespan, and player retention!", I'd say that's.... pretty bad. (well, from the perspective of the gamers. Obviously R2Games is loving every penny of it)
While their immediate action is commendable, the lack of their knowledge about crafting and it's results are a reason for concern. How could they not see or know, how powerful crafted potions are? It's like they don't even play their own game and have to rely on player feedback for even something as this.
How fun it is to hide behind a computer and be rude and nasty to other people.
To the OP, great job posting this . Despite all the rude comments on this thread, you did a great job, as did ZOS. Many of us are enjoying a game where the DEVS are making things happen, adding content, and bringing people to the game. I call that an acomplishment. And people like yourself are helping to make the game better for us.
Trolls will be trolls. They just cant find a game they are satisfied with, so they come to the forums, and bitch, whine and troll to make themselves feel better. You need to pity these poor souls. They are miserable.
As a crafter in ESO, I've paid special attention to what items were planned for the new Crown Store.
They have stated specifically that Crown Store items would not be as powerful as player crafted items. When it went up yesterday I noticed that the healing potions offered were stronger than what I was able to craft. Someone (who will remain nameless) posted a question in the forums asking if this was a bug or if it was intentional.
The community manager responded that this was not intentional and in response they have pulled all potions from the Crown Store until they can be sure that they are not more powerful than player crafted at which time they will return to the store.
We all know the path to P2WIN and this had the appearance of heading down that path. I thought I would share with everyone how well they handled the situation and call out a "Well Done" for ESO and ZOS.
Whatever you think of the company or the game you have to give them credit when they do the right thing.
Edited to remove my personal involvement in events as evidently that incites trolls.
well, that's the way g1 handled APB:reloaded.
and, that was the moment most people i know left the game.
gold weapons everywhere, so basically those who play it HAVE to buy gold weapons to be able to compete propperly (and whoever disagrees on that one most likely runs with a gold gun *g*).
sure, it's fun for the russians who have it even easier with their gold weapons AND aimbot - and those are about the only ones left playing APB
imo quite the obvious statement ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
Cash shops are pay to win creep. Of course with the introduction of the cash shop Zenimax is "responsive" to criticism and player issues. Just wait six months to a year down the road and see what happens. Cash shops evolve and I wouldnt be surprised if you find your potions back in there.
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
Sure but at the same time me as a consumer has the right to make a value judgement on those decisions and choose rather I'm going to give companies that participate in practices I don't like my money or not. If your favorite fast food joint started to replace a percentage of the meat with cow turds because they "had to make a profit" people would bail on them pretty fast wouldn't you think and they would loose a lot more money to lost customers than they would ever make by selling their more profitable product? There is a obvious balancing act here for them between releasing things that sell well and releasing things that drive customers away. It's we as consumers that ultimately make that decision of how far is to much and at least to me personally we have let things overall go way to far into turd in our food territory.
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
All the more reason to expect the cash shop to get worse. (except for those that actually believe they'll be releasing lots of purchaseable expansions)
Originally posted by udon
Sure but at the same time me as a consumer has the right to make a value judgement on those decisions and choose rather I'm going to give companies that participate in practices I don't like my money or not. If your favorite fast food joint started to replace a percentage of the meat with cow turds because they "had to make a profit" people would bail on them pretty fast wouldn't you think and they would loose a lot more money to lost customers than they would ever make by selling their more profitable product? There is a obvious balancing act here for them between releasing things that sell well and releasing things that drive customers away. It's we as consumers that ultimately make that decision of how far is to much and at least to me personally we have let things overall go way to far into turd in our food territory.
Yep. Like R2Games' presentation said, the model has "lower player retention" and "lower game life span". Businesses are fully aware that people who reject cow turds in their meat will leave the game over models like those.
"They have to make money" and "People will leave the game because it has turds" are actually not two mutually exclusive things. Of course, it's still bad for the game from the gamer's perspective, unless you're looking at it in a "better than the game shutting down" perspective, but that perspective semi-fails when "They have to make money" is really more accurately stated as "They want to maximize profit".
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
All the more reason to expect the cash shop to get worse. (except for those that actually believe they'll be releasing lots of purchaseable expansions)
For arguments sake, remember ESO still offers a sub. For what it's worth it's been polled on the official forums a few times "who plans to stay subbed" and it's always around 65-70% Couple the sub money with DLC and eventual expansion, who know we not see more than XP pots added.
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
Sure but at the same time me as a consumer has the right to make a value judgement on those decisions and choose rather I'm going to give companies that participate in practices I don't like my money or not. If your favorite fast food joint started to replace a percentage of the meat with cow turds because they "had to make a profit" people would bail on them pretty fast wouldn't you think and they would loose a lot more money to lost customers than they would ever make by selling their more profitable product? There is a obvious balancing act here for them between releasing things that sell well and releasing things that drive customers away. It's we as consumers that ultimately make that decision of how far is to much and at least to me personally we have let things overall go way to far into turd in our food territory.
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
All the more reason to expect the cash shop to get worse. (except for those that actually believe they'll be releasing lots of purchaseable expansions)
For arguments sake, remember ESO still offers a sub. For what it's worth it's been polled on the official forums a few times "who plans to stay subbed" and it's always around 65-70% Couple the sub money with DLC and eventual expansion, who know we not see more than XP pots added.
Archeage offers a "sub" of sorts and every game at www.r2games.com offers a "sub" of sorts, too. (hopefully my point here is self-explanatory. If not, just say so and I'm fine with explaining it).
Now, I can't say ESO will go the same route. However, if you're going to make a game either B2P or F2P, then introduce a sub option, and then NOT monetize things so that one also feels tempted/pressured to use the cash shop in addition to the sub option, why bother going F2P in the first place? Is it in the vain hope that going F2P will get more subs than the game would have gotten otherwise and make up for having to pay the costs of all the freeloaders who don't sub? Because that'd be kinda naive, IMHO, when you look at how EVERY F2P game always ends up being paid for by just a small portion of the population... (even more so with B2P instead of F2P. Then you still have the pay barrier of entry! The chances of THAT getting you enough extra subs to pay for the freeloaders instead of just staying sub-based seem nonexistant to me)
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
All the more reason to expect the cash shop to get worse. (except for those that actually believe they'll be releasing lots of purchaseable expansions)
For arguments sake, remember ESO still offers a sub. For what it's worth it's been polled on the official forums a few times "who plans to stay subbed" and it's always around 65-70% Couple the sub money with DLC and eventual expansion, who know we not see more than XP pots added.
Archeage offers a "sub" of sorts and every game at www.r2games.com offers a "sub" of sorts, too. (hopefully my point here is self-explanatory. If not, just say so and I'm fine with explaining it).
Now, I can't say ESO will go the same route. However, if you're going to make a game either B2P or F2P, then introduce a sub option, and then NOT monetize things so that one also feels tempted/pressured to use the cash shop in addition to the sub option, why bother going F2P in the first place? Is it in the vain hope that going F2P will get more subs than the game would have gotten otherwise and make up for having to pay the costs of all the freeloaders who don't sub? Because that'd be kinda naive, IMHO, when you look at how EVERY F2P game always ends up being paid for by just a small portion of the population... (even more so with B2P instead of F2P. Then you still have the pay barrier of entry! The chances of THAT getting you enough extra subs to pay for the freeloaders instead of just staying sub-based seem nonexistant to me)
It's because they didn't go F2P - they went B2P and what you call the "barrier of entry" is going to bring in a good chunk of change.
Games that don't have that "barrier" NEED to monetize heavily and coerce you to spend $ because that's all the money they get. You'll also never see those F2P games giving you what they call a sub option that rewards you with crowns as part of the sub that are 100% equivalent to just purchasing the crowns without subbing.
As to what will happen eventually...anything is possible. It's your choice to worry about what might eventually be now or if and when it happens.
And your use of the word "freeloader" to describe those who use the B2P model as sold -- i.e. buy it and then don't sub or buy crowns -- is misplaced in a game where the entry is not free.
Subs are now an option for those who feel they want the value it offers. There's no "cool true fan" and "freeloader" division here.
I bought it and subbed enough to get a free Senche mount when it comes. Now I'm taking a payment holiday when my sub expires in 2 weeks. Someone else's turn to spend.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's because they didn't go F2P - they went B2P and what you call the "barrier of entry" is going to bring in a good chunk of change.
Games that don't have that "barrier" NEED to monetize heavily and coerce you to spend $ because that's all the money they get. You'll also never see those F2P games giving you what they call a sub option that rewards you with crowns as part of the sub that are 100% equivalent to just purchasing the crowns without subbing.
As to what will happen eventually...anything is possible. It's your choice to worry about what might eventually be now or if and when it happens.
And your use of the word "freeloader" to describe those who use the B2P model as sold -- i.e. buy it and then don't sub or buy crowns -- is misplaced in a game where the entry is not free.
Subs are now an option for those who feel they want the value it offers. There's no "cool true fan" and "freeloader" division here.
I bought it and subbed enough to get a free Senche mount when it comes. Now I'm taking a payment holiday when my sub expires in 2 weeks. Someone else's turn to spend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... wasn't Eldar Scrolls Online already B2P, albeit with a sub? In that case, I don't think going B2P without subbing being necessary is going to bring them a "significant chunk of change" more than their old model would have.
Now, bear in mind that the whole point of changing the model in the first place was to make more money. And I just find it doubtful that going B2P with optional sub is going to bring in signfiicantly more money than their original model of B2P with needing a sub. Especially after you take into account the extra costs associated with having to host for the nonsubbers (whether they're "freeloaders" or whatever you want to call them. Non-subbers, then).
Hence the high likelihood they're going to focus on the cash shop more than what you currently see. Because the chances of making enough revenue from the extra additional box sales of going B2P-with-Optional-Sub compared to their original model of B2P-with-necessary-sub to make up for hosting the non-subbers in the long term is quite nonexistant, I'm sure. Especially in the long term, where the initial one-time revenue jump of a box sale becomes more and more insigificant
It's because they didn't go F2P - they went B2P and what you call the "barrier of entry" is going to bring in a good chunk of change.
Games that don't have that "barrier" NEED to monetize heavily and coerce you to spend $ because that's all the money they get. You'll also never see those F2P games giving you what they call a sub option that rewards you with crowns as part of the sub that are 100% equivalent to just purchasing the crowns without subbing.
As to what will happen eventually...anything is possible. It's your choice to worry about what might eventually be now or if and when it happens.
And your use of the word "freeloader" to describe those who use the B2P model as sold -- i.e. buy it and then don't sub or buy crowns -- is misplaced in a game where the entry is not free.
Subs are now an option for those who feel they want the value it offers. There's no "cool true fan" and "freeloader" division here.
I bought it and subbed enough to get a free Senche mount when it comes. Now I'm taking a payment holiday when my sub expires in 2 weeks. Someone else's turn to spend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... wasn't Eldar Scrolls Online already B2P with a sub? In that case, I don't think going B2P without subbing being necessary is going to bring them a "significant chunk of change" more than their old model would have.
Now, bear in mind that the whole point of changing the model in the first place was to make more money. And I just find it doubtful that going B2P with optional sub is going to bring in signfiicantly more money than their original model of B2P with needing a sub. Especially after you take into account the extra costs associated with having to host for the nonsubbers (whether they're "freeloaders" or whatever you want to call them. Non-subbers, then).
Hence the high likelihood they're going to focus on the cash shop more than what you currently see. Because the chances of making enough revenue from the extra additional box sales of going B2P-with-Optional-Sub compared to their original model of B2P-with-necessary-sub to make up for hosting the non-subbers in the long term is quite nonexistant, I'm sure. Especially in the long term, where the initial one-time revenue jump of a box sale becomes more and more insigificant
In MMO terminology, "B2P" is used to denote the handful of MMOs (GW2, TSW, ESO) that have a "box" price bu require no sub. Yes, technically, traditional sub MMOs are also B2P but that's not what we call them - we call them "P2P" because of the ongoing monthly requirement to pay to play.
I don't know how many more boxes they will sell now that it's B2P, but I do know that the P2P sub system creates a psychological barrier for some. There will be players who will consider it now that it doesn't require a sub that wouldn't have before - this is especially so in spades for the console crowd... and it's that console crowd who will be buying the boxes that will be bringing in a lot more cash than the PC/Mac crowd in 2015.
And they already do have plans for real Crown store content sales that they're banking on for continued revenue: DLC. There is none at the moment so the Crown store is just full of fluffy convenience and cosmetic stuff. Neither us nor they will have any kind of real indication of how well the crown store meets their budgetary predictions until there is DLC in there. That is their #1 focus - DLC, not additional fluffy junk. That will either make them the amount of money they expect or not. If it does you'll continue to see a store very similar to what we have now + DLC... if it doesn't, then we'll start to see sketchy shit in there. along with a full switch to F2P.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's because they didn't go F2P - they went B2P and what you call the "barrier of entry" is going to bring in a good chunk of change.
Games that don't have that "barrier" NEED to monetize heavily and coerce you to spend $ because that's all the money they get. You'll also never see those F2P games giving you what they call a sub option that rewards you with crowns as part of the sub that are 100% equivalent to just purchasing the crowns without subbing.
As to what will happen eventually...anything is possible. It's your choice to worry about what might eventually be now or if and when it happens.
And your use of the word "freeloader" to describe those who use the B2P model as sold -- i.e. buy it and then don't sub or buy crowns -- is misplaced in a game where the entry is not free.
Subs are now an option for those who feel they want the value it offers. There's no "cool true fan" and "freeloader" division here.
I bought it and subbed enough to get a free Senche mount when it comes. Now I'm taking a payment holiday when my sub expires in 2 weeks. Someone else's turn to spend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... wasn't Eldar Scrolls Online already B2P with a sub? In that case, I don't think going B2P without subbing being necessary is going to bring them a "significant chunk of change" more than their old model would have.
Now, bear in mind that the whole point of changing the model in the first place was to make more money. And I just find it doubtful that going B2P with optional sub is going to bring in signfiicantly more money than their original model of B2P with needing a sub. Especially after you take into account the extra costs associated with having to host for the nonsubbers (whether they're "freeloaders" or whatever you want to call them. Non-subbers, then).
Hence the high likelihood they're going to focus on the cash shop more than what you currently see. Because the chances of making enough revenue from the extra additional box sales of going B2P-with-Optional-Sub compared to their original model of B2P-with-necessary-sub to make up for hosting the non-subbers in the long term is quite nonexistant, I'm sure. Especially in the long term, where the initial one-time revenue jump of a box sale becomes more and more insigificant
In MMO terminology, "B2P" is used to denote the handful of MMOs (GW2, TSW, ESO) that have a "box" price bu require no sub. Yes, technically, traditional sub MMOs are also B2P but that's not what we call them - we call them "P2P" because of the ongoing monthly requirement to pay to play.
I don't know how many more boxes they will sell now that it's B2P, but I do know that the P2P sub system creates a psychological barrier for some. There will be players who will consider it now that it doesn't require a sub that wouldn't have before - this is especially so in spades for the console crowd... and it's that console crowd who will be buying the boxes that will be bringing in a lot more cash than the PC/Mac crowd in 2015.
And they already do have plans for real Crown store content sales that they're banking on for continued revenue: DLC. There is none at the moment so the Crown store is just full of fluffy convenience and cosmetic stuff. Neither us nor they will have any kind of real indication of how well the crown store meets their budgetary predictions until there is DLC in there. That is their #1 focus - DLC, not additional fluffy junk. That will either make them the amount of money they expect or not. If it does you'll continue to see a store very similar to what we have now + DLC... if it doesn't, then we'll start to see sketchy shit in there. along with a full switch to F2P.
I thought the general consensus or feeling by most people was that the DLC was... probably not going to happen. At least, in any significant amount.
Of course, the general consensus could be proven wrong. I'd be surprised, myself, though. DLC takes a lot more time, effort, and resources to make than slapping in extra gunk into the cash shop and monetizing the cash shop more. Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me and most others that thinks Zenimax won't commit to that. In our defense, IMHO Zenimax has given little reason to be optimistic.
I thought the general consensus or feeling by most people was that the DLC was... probably not going to happen. At least, in any significant amount.
Of course, the general consensus could be proven wrong. I'd be surprised, myself, though. DLC takes a lot more time, effort, and resources to make than slapping in extra gunk into the cash shop and monetizing the cash shop more. Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me and most others that thinks Zenimax won't commit to that. In our defense, IMHO Zenimax has given little reason to be optimistic.
They have one DLC zone, Wrothgar, ready to go right now. But they're busy with the console push + I doubt they want to release to the console with a DLC immediately after. It's bad optics. So they'll release it sometime after the console release but it's ready now. And by all accounts, the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and Imperial City are also just about ready for the PTS.
Although, to be honest, I don't know how they'll swing skill lines as DLC, and if the Imp City requires controlling certain Cyrodiil objectives to unlock for your faction as they have described in the past, I can't see how that would be DLC since presumably, some of the people in Cyrodiil you want to help get those objectives may not be able to enter it. In DAoC, access to Darkness Falls was a great PVP motivator.
I understand the pessimistic point of view but I think, if anything, the DLC sales thing is a great stick to get them busy adding areas and other things with mass appeal sooner rather than later,
It's the console launch timing that's artificially slowing things down at the moment but, IMHO, that's a temporary aberration.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
ya they took other things to there was a brown horse upgrade pack for 1 day it is gone to you all should remember this is there first mmo think it is a damn good game for there first mmo
Comments
The "CS items will never be as strong as the crafted items" statement is the first step to Pay to Win in an mmo. Thats what Trion did with Rift and started selling gear. It doesnt have to be epic gear to be pay to win, it has to be gear better than other gear at any level. Many people do pvp at low levels too so those gears sold do have advantage over them.
I hope ZoS is more competent and dont come up with the same nonsense, but pots themselves are not p2w unless they give dmg/defence buffs potions like many F2P do. EDIT: or if the cs potions heal more than crafted ones in pvp.
R2Games (who make millions from their F2P P2W games) lists the pros and cons of P2W in their presentation.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An
(go to minute 39 of the "Why Chinese Browser Games?" section)
It basically boiled down to this:
Pros:
More money and faster!
Cons:
Shorter game life! Lower player retention! Balance! Whales who enjoy open world PvP can potentially be a community disaster!
If that's not "bad" to someone, then.... good for them, I guess.
R2Games are the P2W incarnate, they release a new game monthly and its the same game with different skin and name and looks like the same people keep falling for it. All horrible P2W. Idk how people can support that. The funniest part is when they complain after seeing how these types of company dont care about their feedback. That is glorious.
What I find gloriously hilarious is that R2 had the cajones to make that presentation public in the first place. It's like "Hey, our games are designed to give us more money by psychologically milking you at the cost of your game's life, balance, and player retention! What are you going to do about it?" and people STILL give them money.
.....but yes, that's there for those that think P2W is not bad. If a company that makes a huge amount of money off of P2W games (and thus, presumably studied the ramifications of them and how to market them down to a SCIENCE) is willing to publically state "More money! Less balance, lifespan, and player retention!", I'd say that's.... pretty bad. (well, from the perspective of the gamers. Obviously R2Games is loving every penny of it)
How fun it is to hide behind a computer and be rude and nasty to other people.
To the OP, great job posting this . Despite all the rude comments on this thread, you did a great job, as did ZOS. Many of us are enjoying a game where the DEVS are making things happen, adding content, and bringing people to the game. I call that an acomplishment. And people like yourself are helping to make the game better for us.
Trolls will be trolls. They just cant find a game they are satisfied with, so they come to the forums, and bitch, whine and troll to make themselves feel better. You need to pity these poor souls. They are miserable.
well, that's the way g1 handled APB:reloaded.
and, that was the moment most people i know left the game.
gold weapons everywhere, so basically those who play it HAVE to buy gold weapons to be able to compete propperly (and whoever disagrees on that one most likely runs with a gold gun *g*).
sure, it's fun for the russians who have it even easier with their gold weapons AND aimbot - and those are about the only ones left playing APB
imo quite the obvious statement ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Right now doesn't the crownstore look so bad but we seen plenty of other games that started out fine only to go to p2win 6 months after launch.
Let's hope that wont happen here.
Yea, I remember when Atlantica Online had like, 5 different MMO sites praising it for "Best cash shop" and "How to do a cash shop right".
I think that only lasted like, 3 months before the cash shop then FILLED with a ton of random chance boxes for super powerful cash shop only items and then some.
....I, as a devasted Atlantica Online player who loved the game, also remember being annoyed that no MMO website ever commented on THAT.
They have to make their money somehow, the box sales aren't going to last unless they keep pumping expansions after expansions in rapid fashion. If not, the cash shop will be ramped up pretty soon.
Sure but at the same time me as a consumer has the right to make a value judgement on those decisions and choose rather I'm going to give companies that participate in practices I don't like my money or not. If your favorite fast food joint started to replace a percentage of the meat with cow turds because they "had to make a profit" people would bail on them pretty fast wouldn't you think and they would loose a lot more money to lost customers than they would ever make by selling their more profitable product? There is a obvious balancing act here for them between releasing things that sell well and releasing things that drive customers away. It's we as consumers that ultimately make that decision of how far is to much and at least to me personally we have let things overall go way to far into turd in our food territory.
All the more reason to expect the cash shop to get worse. (except for those that actually believe they'll be releasing lots of purchaseable expansions)
Yep. Like R2Games' presentation said, the model has "lower player retention" and "lower game life span". Businesses are fully aware that people who reject cow turds in their meat will leave the game over models like those.
"They have to make money" and "People will leave the game because it has turds" are actually not two mutually exclusive things. Of course, it's still bad for the game from the gamer's perspective, unless you're looking at it in a "better than the game shutting down" perspective, but that perspective semi-fails when "They have to make money" is really more accurately stated as "They want to maximize profit".
For arguments sake, remember ESO still offers a sub. For what it's worth it's been polled on the official forums a few times "who plans to stay subbed" and it's always around 65-70% Couple the sub money with DLC and eventual expansion, who know we not see more than XP pots added.
Of course, totally agree with you.
Archeage offers a "sub" of sorts and every game at www.r2games.com offers a "sub" of sorts, too. (hopefully my point here is self-explanatory. If not, just say so and I'm fine with explaining it).
Now, I can't say ESO will go the same route. However, if you're going to make a game either B2P or F2P, then introduce a sub option, and then NOT monetize things so that one also feels tempted/pressured to use the cash shop in addition to the sub option, why bother going F2P in the first place? Is it in the vain hope that going F2P will get more subs than the game would have gotten otherwise and make up for having to pay the costs of all the freeloaders who don't sub? Because that'd be kinda naive, IMHO, when you look at how EVERY F2P game always ends up being paid for by just a small portion of the population... (even more so with B2P instead of F2P. Then you still have the pay barrier of entry! The chances of THAT getting you enough extra subs to pay for the freeloaders instead of just staying sub-based seem nonexistant to me)
It's because they didn't go F2P - they went B2P and what you call the "barrier of entry" is going to bring in a good chunk of change.
Games that don't have that "barrier" NEED to monetize heavily and coerce you to spend $ because that's all the money they get. You'll also never see those F2P games giving you what they call a sub option that rewards you with crowns as part of the sub that are 100% equivalent to just purchasing the crowns without subbing.
As to what will happen eventually...anything is possible. It's your choice to worry about what might eventually be now or if and when it happens.
And your use of the word "freeloader" to describe those who use the B2P model as sold -- i.e. buy it and then don't sub or buy crowns -- is misplaced in a game where the entry is not free.
Subs are now an option for those who feel they want the value it offers. There's no "cool true fan" and "freeloader" division here.
I bought it and subbed enough to get a free Senche mount when it comes. Now I'm taking a payment holiday when my sub expires in 2 weeks. Someone else's turn to spend.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You stay sassy!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... wasn't Eldar Scrolls Online already B2P, albeit with a sub? In that case, I don't think going B2P without subbing being necessary is going to bring them a "significant chunk of change" more than their old model would have.
Now, bear in mind that the whole point of changing the model in the first place was to make more money. And I just find it doubtful that going B2P with optional sub is going to bring in signfiicantly more money than their original model of B2P with needing a sub. Especially after you take into account the extra costs associated with having to host for the nonsubbers (whether they're "freeloaders" or whatever you want to call them. Non-subbers, then).
Hence the high likelihood they're going to focus on the cash shop more than what you currently see. Because the chances of making enough revenue from the extra additional box sales of going B2P-with-Optional-Sub compared to their original model of B2P-with-necessary-sub to make up for hosting the non-subbers in the long term is quite nonexistant, I'm sure. Especially in the long term, where the initial one-time revenue jump of a box sale becomes more and more insigificant
In MMO terminology, "B2P" is used to denote the handful of MMOs (GW2, TSW, ESO) that have a "box" price bu require no sub. Yes, technically, traditional sub MMOs are also B2P but that's not what we call them - we call them "P2P" because of the ongoing monthly requirement to pay to play.
I don't know how many more boxes they will sell now that it's B2P, but I do know that the P2P sub system creates a psychological barrier for some. There will be players who will consider it now that it doesn't require a sub that wouldn't have before - this is especially so in spades for the console crowd... and it's that console crowd who will be buying the boxes that will be bringing in a lot more cash than the PC/Mac crowd in 2015.
And they already do have plans for real Crown store content sales that they're banking on for continued revenue: DLC. There is none at the moment so the Crown store is just full of fluffy convenience and cosmetic stuff. Neither us nor they will have any kind of real indication of how well the crown store meets their budgetary predictions until there is DLC in there. That is their #1 focus - DLC, not additional fluffy junk. That will either make them the amount of money they expect or not. If it does you'll continue to see a store very similar to what we have now + DLC... if it doesn't, then we'll start to see sketchy shit in there. along with a full switch to F2P.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I thought the general consensus or feeling by most people was that the DLC was... probably not going to happen. At least, in any significant amount.
Of course, the general consensus could be proven wrong. I'd be surprised, myself, though. DLC takes a lot more time, effort, and resources to make than slapping in extra gunk into the cash shop and monetizing the cash shop more. Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me and most others that thinks Zenimax won't commit to that. In our defense, IMHO Zenimax has given little reason to be optimistic.
They have one DLC zone, Wrothgar, ready to go right now. But they're busy with the console push + I doubt they want to release to the console with a DLC immediately after. It's bad optics. So they'll release it sometime after the console release but it's ready now. And by all accounts, the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and Imperial City are also just about ready for the PTS.
Although, to be honest, I don't know how they'll swing skill lines as DLC, and if the Imp City requires controlling certain Cyrodiil objectives to unlock for your faction as they have described in the past, I can't see how that would be DLC since presumably, some of the people in Cyrodiil you want to help get those objectives may not be able to enter it. In DAoC, access to Darkness Falls was a great PVP motivator.
I understand the pessimistic point of view but I think, if anything, the DLC sales thing is a great stick to get them busy adding areas and other things with mass appeal sooner rather than later,
It's the console launch timing that's artificially slowing things down at the moment but, IMHO, that's a temporary aberration.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED