Originally posted by Nanfoodle Range and melee are hard enough to balance, with casters having that much range, how are they going to balance that?
That's just for testing the projectiles tracking and collision with the server side PhysX.
There WILL be spells that have really long ranges for seiges, and such, but there will be penalties assosiated with that. Most spells will have more "traditional" range bands, once they move along the abiltiy crafting system and the move closer to release.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Range and melee are hard enough to balance, with casters having that much range, how are they going to balance that?
That's just for testing the projectiles tracking and collision with the server side PhysX.
There WILL be spells that have really long ranges for seiges, and such, but there will be penalties assosiated with that. Most spells will have more "traditional" range bands, once they move along the abiltiy crafting system and the move closer to release.
It's also good to note that you will probably be able to dodge those projectiles if you have a fast enough movement speed,etc. So I assume the highest range spells will have the lowest tracking speed to compensate for this (and to make these more useful for siege,etc. than to snipe melee that are running at you).
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Regardless, I'm happy to see this trend of "niche" games getting some steam. I think that is what this genre desperately needs.
Lower population that shares common tastes is what the genre was all about before, and where it should go back to bring the sense of community (and as a nice side-effect : player retention).
Whether you like PvP or not, you should'nt just bitch about this game for not having what you want from a game.. You should instead be happy for people who enjoy this, and hope that it ends up being a good enough success to show others that "niche" can be profitable too.
CU and Pantheon are both music to my ears, let's just hope they can deliver!
(I have no doubt that the former will though, just still a bit sceptical about the later...)
This is actually an alpha video not pre-alpha. Alpha began in early February and this video was recorded during one of the scheduled alpha tests. Since many recent games have called what used to be beta "alpha" and have sold access to that, Mark has started calling the current early stage of alpha "tech alpha" to make it clear that where CU is in development is NOT where those other games were when they began selling "alpha" access.
The range on spells and other mechanics visible in the video are mainly for testing stuff like how well they track over long distances. You shouldn't assume the range will be that long at launch. Or if it is that long, there may be downsides to using a spell with extreme range. You may then want to use the ability builder system to make other spells with shorter range that don't have those penalties.
Buttwings... well yeah. I'm not too fond of that particular art design either. Fortunately there are plenty of other races that I do like.
EXACTLY what I wanted to see. The real physics, collision and spell wall mechanics are precisely as I hoped. This is what is required in a real pvp game. AC has some of these elements. AC 2 tried to have a few more of these elements (walls). Then the industry abandoned the concept for the most part in mmos.
In AC you could cast a spell at someone not paying attention across the entire map and it could hit them. Archery arced and could miss. 16 years later and finally a real physics based pvp mmo. This will be utterly amazing.
Clearly, you did not play Darkfall.
Physics based PvP, with 1500v1500 was done in 2009, too bad you were not there. DFO truly suffered due to a total lack of advertising.
As for Banes and Boons, that is stuff that was pioneered by a game called Champions, later known as the Hero System, and followed by GURPS, the Generic Universal Roleplay System, from Steve Jackson Games. I remember when SJG got raided by the FBI over their Hacker game. Ancient times, it was so totally 80's.
I missed AC, good on you for logging in to that one.
I did play it. Just didn't like it early in release and never went back to it.
Damn you people assume a shit ton. Banes and Boons? I played those systems you listed and about 20 others. CU is about pulling rpg mechanics and game play philosophy into an mmo. Mark did this early on and continues to do it for CU. Nothing about this is about originality. It is about translating the RPG feel into an mmo.
I also see a few references to PVE (it's a shame it doesn't have it and what not). It will have PVE and there will be PVE mechanics driving PVP. The game is trying to make a living world (although most of the living and building will be by players) rich in lore and RPG feel. PVE provides no xp however. You can kill mobs for crafting items, the Depths is very PVE heavy as those mobs (and dungeon) change to the theme of the faction who controls it and the other factions must attempt to take it over again fighting both players and mobs.
The game though is still niche and admittedly so. It never once has tried to target any audience other than those who truly want a RvR fantasy game. Any comment outside of this is drive entirely by consumer ignorance ... and there is a shit ton of it on these forums with comments clearly made with zero research done prior.
This alpha is using initial model, animations and basic spell animations for the simply reason of emulating stress the servers will get at release. Absolutely nothing we see in this video is even close to what the final product will look like. This is a snapshot of development and that alone is what interests me because evaluating this against an end product is futile. The tech at this point is quite interesting though. It is rather interesting how many times a developer, presenters and followers of the development process can stress over and over and over again what is being tested, why it is being tested, what is not being tested and what is still to be developed yet people still reply commenting on graphics and game play as if it is near final release. Painful to watch and read but not unexpected if one follows this forum.
Is this an RPG? Is this an MMORPG? I'd say these are valid questions for those unwilling to research anything themselves. The world will be massive, the world will have npcs, a 100% player driven economy based on complex crafting, nearly 100% player built housing, keeps and defenses, tons of fantasy themed mobs (just no xp gained by killing them ... you hunt them for resources or they add additional conflict in the world just like in real life before our modern times), some yet to be revealed large interaction with Dragons tied heavily into the lore, massive dungeon (The Depths) aligning lore themed npcs with players, more unique classes and character mechanics than most MMOs have and core game play based upon progression of your realm over others. It has nearly everything a regular mmo has expect you progress by contributing to your realm instead of personal xp gain (another RPG feature).
The odd revelation to this is that the game is more MMO than most MMOs are other than the conflict and progression being based entirely off of RvR rule sets. A niche within a niche genre? Yup ... and PRECISELY what it is shooting for because it is trying to get it right. This apparently scares many because it is designed from marketing through game play to exclude those who aren't interested in it. There is indeed a massive sense of entitlement by many who appear to think every game ever made should offer something for everyone. There are MANY watered down mmos trying to please everyone already to choose from. It is the reason this genre lost it's steam to begin with.
Whether the game succeeds or not, one must appreciate a developer trying not to take a bite from the Wow-cake but instead create something from entirely different sources. This is what makes the game (self-proclaimed) old-school ... it draws it's influences from RPG, MUDs and older mmorpgs also influenced by these other games. In the past we had OU, EQ, AC along with older games still which spawned other great (yet still flawed) games like DAoC, AO and many pre-Wow mmos that one can argue were pre-template. I see this happening again through crowd funding and indie development. Heavy RPG and PVE driven games like Pantheon, SotA and older style sandbox mmos are being developed too. CU is simply the return to RvR much like DAoC and Shadowbane era (oddly these developers are competing again against each other ... more the better imo) but instead is trying to meld pve into pvp in a more synergistic way. It's this development philosophy that is most interesting at this point. It is done to resolve the shortcomings of previous attempts at this genre (DAoC certainly had a level of success. Shadowbane sadly never but hopefully Crowfall will pick up where they left off as it differs enough from CU to offer another RPG pvp-centric choice).
The very essence of why these games are being developed is to bring lore-rich, RPG fantasy options to the pvp genre. They are NOT supposed to be action-based combat in little more than large battlegrounds. They are in fact trying to completely break that connection and if the final products fails to deviate from this (now) stereotype they will also fail in concept and likely game play. This genre has not successfully developed it's own identity and CU certainly is attempting to do so taking very large risks. Research the game and what it is trying to do and you will identify with what it is trying to be even if not personally interested in it.
I cannot defend the product as it does not really exist yet (nor rate it) but I will certainly defend the choices made that shapes it's development because anyone half-assed knowledgeable about the MMO industry will be able to identify the failings and hurdles of the past that must be over-come for games like these to succeed. Many of these "BSC" ideas are trying to leap these hurdles. Step one is revealed in this video: the creation and heavy testing of a newly designed engine and tech never implemented before prior to the shiny bells and whistles most expect. The error made by many here is expecting bells and whistles so early in development.
Huh? Some of you have Vanguard on the brain. IMO I don't see any resemblance to Vanguard at all. If anything, I see some DAoC which is logical considering the experience of the developers.
So far looking very good. Sure makes most of these indie games look bad even in it's pre-alpha state.
Huh? Some of you have Vanguard on the brain. IMO I don't see any resemblance to Vanguard at all. If anything, I see some DAoC which is logical considering the experience of the developers.
So far looking very good. Sure makes most of these indie games look bad even in it's pre-alpha state.
The odd truth is that even AAA games by major developers also look like shit in true Alpha stages or use already developed engines which allow pretty graphics early on. Even those games play like shit at release often though. As stated by many others, Alpha is misused terribly by developers (or perhaps more likely distributors) as marketing ploys to begin charging game-play on products far beyond actual Alpha stage (if not already exploited through crowd funding).
CU has to be identified differently from other crowd funded projects. It launched it's KS campaign as an idea that needed funding to even be developed (Mark's additional 2.125 or so millions was only to come if this game proved it could garner interest). The only true asset they had was a small development team already in place. It is not fair to compare a fledgling product against those already using development engines or further along who simply needed more money. All valid uses of KS (if the product truly is worthy) but understanding the differences is worth noting.
Wasn't aware wave works and turf effects were out in 2007. Thanks for the knowledge!
Hmm I wasn't aware these turf effects where actually show in the pre-alpha footage, you know the footage Mikeha responded to.
Other then that as alway's I truly hope the game will succeed but reading comments like awesome, great just makes me wonder did I miss something?
I have played plenty of alpha games or even some pre-alpha games and never really felt they where awesome while some of them eventually nearing closer to release became awesome.
I wil agree it was nice footage and many have waited a long time to see some of the game working.
But please people don't get overhyped by this little shown.
Wasn't aware wave works and turf effects were out in 2007. Thanks for the knowledge!
Hmm I wasn't aware these turf effects where actually show in the pre-alpha footage, you know the footage Mikeha responded to.
Other then that as alway's I truly hope the game will succeed but reading comments like awesome, great just makes me wonder did I miss something?
I have played plenty of alpha games or even some pre-alpha games and never really felt they where awesome while some of them eventually nearing closer to release became awesome.
I wil agree it was nice footage and many have waited a long time to see some of the game working.
But please people don't get overhyped by this little shown.
Maybe we should go overhype crowfall instead after all. You recently said
"
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play."
Not surprised about your negativity. Troll on my friend.
"Folks, Let me clear this up since it's an easy one. There will not be PvE questing, PvE drops, PvE zones, PvE leveling. There will be NPCs whether they are guards, animals, etc."
"What if we don’t want to RvR that day but still want to have fun in the game?” Well, that is where housing, crafting and other systems will come into play. As a RvR-focused game, players will need all sorts of items and the crafters will have to supply them. Whether it is arrows, armor, gold for the mint, etc., there’s always going to be somebody who needs something and that’s where crafting comes in. And if you don’t feel like crafting, well, the housing/buildings system are waiting for you."
There's also the depths. RvR Dungeon but you'll be able to call in NPC guards & crafters will be able to craft traps for enemies... also some very important materials to be collected will be only available in The Depths.
Don't like RvR? But some of your friends are playing the game? Roll the dedicated Crafter class and support them that way. Make buildings, armor, weapons, traps.. you'll still have to PvE (Environment being skinning animals, mining, chopping trees w/e is needed to craft)
Wasn't aware wave works and turf effects were out in 2007. Thanks for the knowledge!
Hmm I wasn't aware these turf effects where actually show in the pre-alpha footage, you know the footage Mikeha responded to.
Other then that as alway's I truly hope the game will succeed but reading comments like awesome, great just makes me wonder did I miss something?
I have played plenty of alpha games or even some pre-alpha games and never really felt they where awesome while some of them eventually nearing closer to release became awesome.
I wil agree it was nice footage and many have waited a long time to see some of the game working.
But please people don't get overhyped by this little shown.
Maybe we should go overhype crowfall instead after all. You recently said
"
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play."
Not surprised about your negativity. Troll on my friend.
You do know I have no interest in Crowfall right? just observing the game as is aswell seeing how today's community reacts towards certain games. And as you have read I reacted towards people already feeling it's awesome and wondered what I missed. Shame you couldn't react to that.
Sorry that you must have misunderstood me in both this topic and the one you had to copy paste.
Wasn't aware wave works and turf effects were out in 2007. Thanks for the knowledge!
Hmm I wasn't aware these turf effects where actually show in the pre-alpha footage, you know the footage Mikeha responded to.
Other then that as alway's I truly hope the game will succeed but reading comments like awesome, great just makes me wonder did I miss something?
I have played plenty of alpha games or even some pre-alpha games and never really felt they where awesome while some of them eventually nearing closer to release became awesome.
I wil agree it was nice footage and many have waited a long time to see some of the game working.
But please people don't get overhyped by this little shown.
Maybe we should go overhype crowfall instead after all. You recently said
"
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play."
Not surprised about your negativity. Troll on my friend.
You do know I have no interest in Crowfall right? just observing the game as is aswell seeing how today's community reacts towards certain games. And as you have read I reacted towards people already feeling it's awesome and wondered what I missed. Shame you couldn't react to that.
Sorry that you must have misunderstood me in both this topic and the one you had to copy paste.
It sounds like we had some miscommunication. It's all good
Originally posted by Striefer For such a seasoned mmo crowd, I'm surprised at the amount of ignorance here. Some people do not know what pre-alpha means LOL
check out Crowfall graphics in pre-alpha way more advanced as a pre-alpha than what is shown here.
EXACTLY what I wanted to see. The real physics, collision and spell wall mechanics are precisely as I hoped. This is what is required in a real pvp game. AC has some of these elements. AC 2 tried to have a few more of these elements (walls). Then the industry abandoned the concept for the most part in mmos.
In AC you could cast a spell at someone not paying attention across the entire map and it could hit them. Archery arced and could miss. 16 years later and finally a real physics based pvp mmo. This will be utterly amazing.
Clearly, you did not play Darkfall.
Physics based PvP, with 1500v1500 was done in 2009, too bad you were not there. DFO truly suffered due to a total lack of advertising.
As for Banes and Boons, that is stuff that was pioneered by a game called Champions, later known as the Hero System, and followed by GURPS, the Generic Universal Roleplay System, from Steve Jackson Games. I remember when SJG got raided by the FBI over their Hacker game. Ancient times, it was so totally 80's.
I missed AC, good on you for logging in to that one.
This alpha is using initial model, animations and basic spell animations for the simply reason of emulating stress the servers will get at release. Absolutely nothing we see in this video is even close to what the final product will look like. This is a snapshot of development and that alone is what interests me because evaluating this against an end product is futile. The tech at this point is quite interesting though. It is rather interesting how many times a developer, presenters and followers of the development process can stress over and over and over again what is being tested, why it is being tested, what is not being tested and what is still to be developed yet people still reply commenting on graphics and game play as if it is near final release. Painful to watch and read but not unexpected if one follows this forum.
I disagree. What you see, will be close to the final product. It will not magically change into something totally unrecognizable as it is now. There's only one MMO that i can remember that drastically changed from alpha to release, and that was WoW, when they revamped their character models and some of their architecture. CU has 15 months to do that, if they stick to their release schedule. I just don't see it happening, but who knows, they might prove me wrong.
It look promising, but what stuck out to me was that the host kept emphasising that absolutely no work had been done on the graphics but that was OK because there is still 15 months to go. I was thinking only 15 months to go and they still have to make all the artwork?
Originally posted by Kaelaien Is this game all pvp/rvr?
Yea it's ZERO PvE. What a waste of talented material. For the record, I think the game looks remarkably bad and the animations and physics look horrendous.
So this is just a PVP game? Another one to scratch off my list!
PvP is a niche within a niche market and to make an MMO without PvE is to remove any vestige or semblance of the genre in which it attempts to call itself. This game should be made into a Lobby based MOBA or some other such title but to label it as an RPG is a travesty to the RPG label.
This is a RvR game with a very in depth Lore. If you genuinely want to know more about the game and exactly why it's a mmorpg i'd recommend you read the back story on the game it's characters etc.. I am not a huge fan of lore, i know a lot of people are. It sounds like you are as well. It's unfortunate that you've given up so quickly on something you know so little about. If you're going to make judgement whether to buy a game on pre alpha video 15 months before release, well then i guess good luck finding that game that makes you happy.
If you genuinely want to know more, go to camelotunchained.com and read up on the Lore, it's all there for your reading pleasure. There is much more to be added as well regarding the game's lore. This isn't a MOBA, or PVP only game, it's a game where you can build and destroy the other realms that you are in conflict with. All i can do is point you to the information if you're interested. Otherwise, it's just your opinion.
Good day!
Since when do PvP players ever care about lore or reading quest dialog any more than they have to?
Originally posted by Striefer For such a seasoned mmo crowd, I'm surprised at the amount of ignorance here. Some people do not know what pre-alpha means LOL
check out Crowfall graphics in pre-alpha way more advanced as a pre-alpha than what is shown here.
The difference is that Crowfall is using Unity which helps them build something quick in order to better "sell" the game on kickstarter.
In that video, there is never more than 6-7 characters on screen... So while it may be "prettier" than CU, they still have to show that their engine can support large scale battles, and to my knowledge, it was not yet proven that Unity can do it easily. They will probably pull it off (I certainly wish), but they will need to work on that part now, which will require lots of efforts (fiddling with a 3rd party engine is not as easy as one could think).
On the other hand, while you think CU does not look good, it shows that large scale battles are not just possible, but they also run great, because instead of working with existing tools to make a "cute pre-alpha", they have created their own engine specifically for the purpose of their game (large scale battles).
If anything, this shows that CSE know what they are doing. Once you have the engine and the "wiring" done, it's easy to add a body and a couple coats of paint (and it's easier to tune this aspect so it does not impact too much on your #1 goal, which is large scale battles).
I guess this is why so much emphasis was put on the fact that no effort was made to make it look good. Because the efforts were made to make it RUN good with for large scale wars. But some people still miss that point it seems.
Originally posted by Striefer For such a seasoned mmo crowd, I'm surprised at the amount of ignorance here. Some people do not know what pre-alpha means LOL
check out Crowfall graphics in pre-alpha way more advanced as a pre-alpha than what is shown here.
The difference is that Crowfall is using Unity which helps them build something quick in order to better "sell" the game on kickstarter.
In that video, there is never more than 6-7 characters on screen... So while it may be "prettier" than CU, they still have to show that their engine can support large scale battles, and to my knowledge, it was not yet proven that Unity can do it easily. They will probably pull it off (I certainly wish), but they will need to work on that part now, which will require lots of efforts (fiddling with a 3rd party engine is not as easy as one could think).
On the other hand, while you think CU does not look good, it shows that large scale battles are not just possible, but they also run great, because instead of working with existing tools to make a "cute pre-alpha", they have created their own engine specifically for the purpose of their game (large scale battles).
If anything, this shows that CSE know what they are doing. Once you have the engine and the "wiring" done, it's "easy" (relatively speaking) to add a body and a couple coats of paint (and it's easier to tune this aspect so it does not impact too much on your #1 goal, which is large scale battles).
I guess this is why so much emphasis was put on the fact that no effort was made to make it look good. Because the efforts were made to make it RUN good with for large scale wars. But some people still miss that point it seems.
Since when do PvP players ever care about lore or reading quest dialog any more than they have to?
The game is for RPG pvp players. If you do not know who they are then you are not one and I ponder why you continue to troll this thread.
Who are RPG pvp players? The entire population who ever played DAoC and a few other mmorpg pvp games throughout history and EXACTLY who this game is targeting.
Mmorpg style pvp is completely different than FPS or lobby games. It is fundamentally different from the ground up. If you do not have the experience to identify this then please consider contributing to the genres you do support.
Originally posted by Striefer For such a seasoned mmo crowd, I'm surprised at the amount of ignorance here. Some people do not know what pre-alpha means LOL
check out Crowfall graphics in pre-alpha way more advanced as a pre-alpha than what is shown here.
On the other hand, while you think CU does not look good, it shows that large scale battles are not just possible, but they also run great, because instead of working with existing tools to make a "cute pre-alpha", they have created their own engine specifically for the purpose of their game (large scale battles).
If anything, this shows that CSE know what they are doing. Once you have the engine and the "wiring" done, it's easy to add a body and a couple coats of paint (and it's easier to tune this aspect so it does not impact too much on your #1 goal, which is large scale battles).
I guess this is why so much emphasis was put on the fact that no effort was made to make it look good. Because the efforts were made to make it RUN good with for large scale wars. But some people still miss that point it seems.
In saw no evidence in the video that the game will run well in massive battles outside of the devs internal test servers, although I hope it does.
Looking good I will definitely be keeping my eye on how CU develops.
It really annoys me when people say PvE and PvP are mutually exclusive, damn, it was done before and worked fine, and can work fine in any game. The problem is gamers have become crybabys who want instant gratification. MMORPG's used to be about creating a character and living in another world, taking on another life in which there were great adventures and risks, pvp brought to the table so much, but it is the whiner who destroys it all, who fragments games and forces developers to change ideas that are great. People who think they are mutually exclusive and say dumbass things like "people who want pvp should go play cod or some lobby moba game", don't you realise that what you are saying is that basically you should also go play a lobby co-op rpg, like dungeon siege.
PvP+PvE= a real virtual world with risky situations which also enrich in game interactions, relationships, politics etc.
Since when do PvP players ever care about lore or reading quest dialog any more than they have to?
Oh come on man, PvPers like lore and quests just as much as the next player. You stereotype people who enjoy having the risk and freedom that pvp mmorpg's bring. Even if I don't pvp, I still want that freedom in the game, that possibility, to exist in a world which has consequences which are based on play to player interactions. Yes you get gankers but I have played countless mmo's where people have banded together, formed guilds to police the lands etc. That is true RPG, players making real roles for themselves based on what is happening in the world. Not coming on forums to cry. "Gamers" and MMO players in particular are in a sad state indeed. You deserve all these trash MMO's, it's what you have caused.
Comments
That's just for testing the projectiles tracking and collision with the server side PhysX.
There WILL be spells that have really long ranges for seiges, and such, but there will be penalties assosiated with that. Most spells will have more "traditional" range bands, once they move along the abiltiy crafting system and the move closer to release.
It's also good to note that you will probably be able to dodge those projectiles if you have a fast enough movement speed,etc. So I assume the highest range spells will have the lowest tracking speed to compensate for this (and to make these more useful for siege,etc. than to snipe melee that are running at you).
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Regardless, I'm happy to see this trend of "niche" games getting some steam. I think that is what this genre desperately needs.
Lower population that shares common tastes is what the genre was all about before, and where it should go back to bring the sense of community (and as a nice side-effect : player retention).
Whether you like PvP or not, you should'nt just bitch about this game for not having what you want from a game.. You should instead be happy for people who enjoy this, and hope that it ends up being a good enough success to show others that "niche" can be profitable too.
CU and Pantheon are both music to my ears, let's just hope they can deliver!
(I have no doubt that the former will though, just still a bit sceptical about the later...)
Nice stuff so far CSE! Keep it up!
This is actually an alpha video not pre-alpha. Alpha began in early February and this video was recorded during one of the scheduled alpha tests. Since many recent games have called what used to be beta "alpha" and have sold access to that, Mark has started calling the current early stage of alpha "tech alpha" to make it clear that where CU is in development is NOT where those other games were when they began selling "alpha" access.
The range on spells and other mechanics visible in the video are mainly for testing stuff like how well they track over long distances. You shouldn't assume the range will be that long at launch. Or if it is that long, there may be downsides to using a spell with extreme range. You may then want to use the ability builder system to make other spells with shorter range that don't have those penalties.
Buttwings... well yeah. I'm not too fond of that particular art design either. Fortunately there are plenty of other races that I do like.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I did play it. Just didn't like it early in release and never went back to it.
Damn you people assume a shit ton. Banes and Boons? I played those systems you listed and about 20 others. CU is about pulling rpg mechanics and game play philosophy into an mmo. Mark did this early on and continues to do it for CU. Nothing about this is about originality. It is about translating the RPG feel into an mmo.
I also see a few references to PVE (it's a shame it doesn't have it and what not). It will have PVE and there will be PVE mechanics driving PVP. The game is trying to make a living world (although most of the living and building will be by players) rich in lore and RPG feel. PVE provides no xp however. You can kill mobs for crafting items, the Depths is very PVE heavy as those mobs (and dungeon) change to the theme of the faction who controls it and the other factions must attempt to take it over again fighting both players and mobs.
The game though is still niche and admittedly so. It never once has tried to target any audience other than those who truly want a RvR fantasy game. Any comment outside of this is drive entirely by consumer ignorance ... and there is a shit ton of it on these forums with comments clearly made with zero research done prior.
This alpha is using initial model, animations and basic spell animations for the simply reason of emulating stress the servers will get at release. Absolutely nothing we see in this video is even close to what the final product will look like. This is a snapshot of development and that alone is what interests me because evaluating this against an end product is futile. The tech at this point is quite interesting though. It is rather interesting how many times a developer, presenters and followers of the development process can stress over and over and over again what is being tested, why it is being tested, what is not being tested and what is still to be developed yet people still reply commenting on graphics and game play as if it is near final release. Painful to watch and read but not unexpected if one follows this forum.
Is this an RPG? Is this an MMORPG? I'd say these are valid questions for those unwilling to research anything themselves. The world will be massive, the world will have npcs, a 100% player driven economy based on complex crafting, nearly 100% player built housing, keeps and defenses, tons of fantasy themed mobs (just no xp gained by killing them ... you hunt them for resources or they add additional conflict in the world just like in real life before our modern times), some yet to be revealed large interaction with Dragons tied heavily into the lore, massive dungeon (The Depths) aligning lore themed npcs with players, more unique classes and character mechanics than most MMOs have and core game play based upon progression of your realm over others. It has nearly everything a regular mmo has expect you progress by contributing to your realm instead of personal xp gain (another RPG feature).
The odd revelation to this is that the game is more MMO than most MMOs are other than the conflict and progression being based entirely off of RvR rule sets. A niche within a niche genre? Yup ... and PRECISELY what it is shooting for because it is trying to get it right. This apparently scares many because it is designed from marketing through game play to exclude those who aren't interested in it. There is indeed a massive sense of entitlement by many who appear to think every game ever made should offer something for everyone. There are MANY watered down mmos trying to please everyone already to choose from. It is the reason this genre lost it's steam to begin with.
Whether the game succeeds or not, one must appreciate a developer trying not to take a bite from the Wow-cake but instead create something from entirely different sources. This is what makes the game (self-proclaimed) old-school ... it draws it's influences from RPG, MUDs and older mmorpgs also influenced by these other games. In the past we had OU, EQ, AC along with older games still which spawned other great (yet still flawed) games like DAoC, AO and many pre-Wow mmos that one can argue were pre-template. I see this happening again through crowd funding and indie development. Heavy RPG and PVE driven games like Pantheon, SotA and older style sandbox mmos are being developed too. CU is simply the return to RvR much like DAoC and Shadowbane era (oddly these developers are competing again against each other ... more the better imo) but instead is trying to meld pve into pvp in a more synergistic way. It's this development philosophy that is most interesting at this point. It is done to resolve the shortcomings of previous attempts at this genre (DAoC certainly had a level of success. Shadowbane sadly never but hopefully Crowfall will pick up where they left off as it differs enough from CU to offer another RPG pvp-centric choice).
The very essence of why these games are being developed is to bring lore-rich, RPG fantasy options to the pvp genre. They are NOT supposed to be action-based combat in little more than large battlegrounds. They are in fact trying to completely break that connection and if the final products fails to deviate from this (now) stereotype they will also fail in concept and likely game play. This genre has not successfully developed it's own identity and CU certainly is attempting to do so taking very large risks. Research the game and what it is trying to do and you will identify with what it is trying to be even if not personally interested in it.
I cannot defend the product as it does not really exist yet (nor rate it) but I will certainly defend the choices made that shapes it's development because anyone half-assed knowledgeable about the MMO industry will be able to identify the failings and hurdles of the past that must be over-come for games like these to succeed. Many of these "BSC" ideas are trying to leap these hurdles. Step one is revealed in this video: the creation and heavy testing of a newly designed engine and tech never implemented before prior to the shiny bells and whistles most expect. The error made by many here is expecting bells and whistles so early in development.
You stay sassy!
Huh? Some of you have Vanguard on the brain. IMO I don't see any resemblance to Vanguard at all. If anything, I see some DAoC which is logical considering the experience of the developers.
So far looking very good. Sure makes most of these indie games look bad even in it's pre-alpha state.
Will there be singing and dancing?
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot, its such a silly place.
The odd truth is that even AAA games by major developers also look like shit in true Alpha stages or use already developed engines which allow pretty graphics early on. Even those games play like shit at release often though. As stated by many others, Alpha is misused terribly by developers (or perhaps more likely distributors) as marketing ploys to begin charging game-play on products far beyond actual Alpha stage (if not already exploited through crowd funding).
CU has to be identified differently from other crowd funded projects. It launched it's KS campaign as an idea that needed funding to even be developed (Mark's additional 2.125 or so millions was only to come if this game proved it could garner interest). The only true asset they had was a small development team already in place. It is not fair to compare a fledgling product against those already using development engines or further along who simply needed more money. All valid uses of KS (if the product truly is worthy) but understanding the differences is worth noting.
You stay sassy!
Hmm I wasn't aware these turf effects where actually show in the pre-alpha footage, you know the footage Mikeha responded to.
Other then that as alway's I truly hope the game will succeed but reading comments like awesome, great just makes me wonder did I miss something?
I have played plenty of alpha games or even some pre-alpha games and never really felt they where awesome while some of them eventually nearing closer to release became awesome.
I wil agree it was nice footage and many have waited a long time to see some of the game working.
But please people don't get overhyped by this little shown.
Maybe we should go overhype crowfall instead after all. You recently said
"
Good thing about these type of engine's is they still can be altered in many way's.
On a side note, I still feel Crowfall needs allot more exposure towards gamers in general in not so specific targeting MMO players. But maybe that's just because I see the game as something new that for sure takes element from certain genre's but molds it's into it's own identity. And gamers in general seem to be somewhat more openminded towards games then MMORPG players where many seem to feel games need to reach their often high expectations else they won't play."
Not surprised about your negativity. Troll on my friend.Couple Quotes from Mark on the whole PvE thing.
"Folks, Let me clear this up since it's an easy one. There will not be PvE questing, PvE drops, PvE zones, PvE leveling. There will be NPCs whether they are guards, animals, etc."
"What if we don’t want to RvR that day but still want to have fun in the game?” Well, that is where housing, crafting and other systems will come into play. As a RvR-focused game, players will need all sorts of items and the crafters will have to supply them. Whether it is arrows, armor, gold for the mint, etc., there’s always going to be somebody who needs something and that’s where crafting comes in. And if you don’t feel like crafting, well, the housing/buildings system are waiting for you."
There's also the depths. RvR Dungeon but you'll be able to call in NPC guards & crafters will be able to craft traps for enemies... also some very important materials to be collected will be only available in The Depths.
Don't like RvR? But some of your friends are playing the game? Roll the dedicated Crafter class and support them that way. Make buildings, armor, weapons, traps.. you'll still have to PvE (Environment being skinning animals, mining, chopping trees w/e is needed to craft)
You do know I have no interest in Crowfall right? just observing the game as is aswell seeing how today's community reacts towards certain games. And as you have read I reacted towards people already feeling it's awesome and wondered what I missed. Shame you couldn't react to that.
Sorry that you must have misunderstood me in both this topic and the one you had to copy paste.
You do know I have no interest in Crowfall right? just observing the game as is aswell seeing how today's community reacts towards certain games. And as you have read I reacted towards people already feeling it's awesome and wondered what I missed. Shame you couldn't react to that.
Sorry that you must have misunderstood me in both this topic and the one you had to copy paste.
It sounds like we had some miscommunication. It's all good
check out Crowfall graphics in pre-alpha way more advanced as a pre-alpha than what is shown here.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/description
I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....
Watched the video. I could not believe that the 30 year old streamer was so excited
about the old level 3 stonewall spell from UO.
I have no doubt they will make a good game.
Unfortunately I will probably pass on this one due to other reasons.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
I disagree. What you see, will be close to the final product. It will not magically change into something totally unrecognizable as it is now. There's only one MMO that i can remember that drastically changed from alpha to release, and that was WoW, when they revamped their character models and some of their architecture. CU has 15 months to do that, if they stick to their release schedule. I just don't see it happening, but who knows, they might prove me wrong.
Since when do PvP players ever care about lore or reading quest dialog any more than they have to?
The difference is that Crowfall is using Unity which helps them build something quick in order to better "sell" the game on kickstarter.
In that video, there is never more than 6-7 characters on screen... So while it may be "prettier" than CU, they still have to show that their engine can support large scale battles, and to my knowledge, it was not yet proven that Unity can do it easily. They will probably pull it off (I certainly wish), but they will need to work on that part now, which will require lots of efforts (fiddling with a 3rd party engine is not as easy as one could think).
On the other hand, while you think CU does not look good, it shows that large scale battles are not just possible, but they also run great, because instead of working with existing tools to make a "cute pre-alpha", they have created their own engine specifically for the purpose of their game (large scale battles).
If anything, this shows that CSE know what they are doing. Once you have the engine and the "wiring" done, it's easy to add a body and a couple coats of paint (and it's easier to tune this aspect so it does not impact too much on your #1 goal, which is large scale battles).
I guess this is why so much emphasis was put on the fact that no effort was made to make it look good. Because the efforts were made to make it RUN good with for large scale wars. But some people still miss that point it seems.
The difference is that Crowfall is using Unity which helps them build something quick in order to better "sell" the game on kickstarter.
In that video, there is never more than 6-7 characters on screen... So while it may be "prettier" than CU, they still have to show that their engine can support large scale battles, and to my knowledge, it was not yet proven that Unity can do it easily. They will probably pull it off (I certainly wish), but they will need to work on that part now, which will require lots of efforts (fiddling with a 3rd party engine is not as easy as one could think).
On the other hand, while you think CU does not look good, it shows that large scale battles are not just possible, but they also run great, because instead of working with existing tools to make a "cute pre-alpha", they have created their own engine specifically for the purpose of their game (large scale battles).
If anything, this shows that CSE know what they are doing. Once you have the engine and the "wiring" done, it's "easy" (relatively speaking) to add a body and a couple coats of paint (and it's easier to tune this aspect so it does not impact too much on your #1 goal, which is large scale battles).
I guess this is why so much emphasis was put on the fact that no effort was made to make it look good. Because the efforts were made to make it RUN good with for large scale wars. But some people still miss that point it seems.
The game is for RPG pvp players. If you do not know who they are then you are not one and I ponder why you continue to troll this thread.
Who are RPG pvp players? The entire population who ever played DAoC and a few other mmorpg pvp games throughout history and EXACTLY who this game is targeting.
Mmorpg style pvp is completely different than FPS or lobby games. It is fundamentally different from the ground up. If you do not have the experience to identify this then please consider contributing to the genres you do support.
You stay sassy!
In saw no evidence in the video that the game will run well in massive battles outside of the devs internal test servers, although I hope it does.
Come on man, that is setting the bar really low. lol
Looking good I will definitely be keeping my eye on how CU develops.
It really annoys me when people say PvE and PvP are mutually exclusive, damn, it was done before and worked fine, and can work fine in any game. The problem is gamers have become crybabys who want instant gratification. MMORPG's used to be about creating a character and living in another world, taking on another life in which there were great adventures and risks, pvp brought to the table so much, but it is the whiner who destroys it all, who fragments games and forces developers to change ideas that are great. People who think they are mutually exclusive and say dumbass things like "people who want pvp should go play cod or some lobby moba game", don't you realise that what you are saying is that basically you should also go play a lobby co-op rpg, like dungeon siege.
PvP+PvE= a real virtual world with risky situations which also enrich in game interactions, relationships, politics etc.
Oh come on man, PvPers like lore and quests just as much as the next player. You stereotype people who enjoy having the risk and freedom that pvp mmorpg's bring. Even if I don't pvp, I still want that freedom in the game, that possibility, to exist in a world which has consequences which are based on play to player interactions. Yes you get gankers but I have played countless mmo's where people have banded together, formed guilds to police the lands etc. That is true RPG, players making real roles for themselves based on what is happening in the world. Not coming on forums to cry. "Gamers" and MMO players in particular are in a sad state indeed. You deserve all these trash MMO's, it's what you have caused.