Originally posted by YashaX There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?
Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.
Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.
Sounds more like an Eastern thing then an action or trinity thing to me. I prefer some semblance of Trinity but not at the expense of static roles. The trinity's major flaw is that no matter how large you make the group size you will forever have an overabundance of DPS to Tank/Healer. Slapping a alternate role or alternate spec still doesn't alleviate the problem. The majority of players enjoy DPS way more. This is a proven fact and if you like DPS there's no getting around the fact you're always going to be the most unwanted class. Adding in alternate roles such as CC or Puller only exacerbates the problems of a trinity system. I don;t have an answer but I was hoping EQN would of solved it. For the record most Action Games I played are way more skillful then the atypical tab Target game, where once you learn the fight it becomes easy mode. No fun in that at all for me. In an action game, positioning, timing and correct dodging is more important and offers more skill to shine though. Games like Neverwinter, ESO and Path of Exile are inherently better for me.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
actually theres only 2 states and 2 decisions to make: go and stop. Any other decisions are made by encounter design and not reliant on trinity.
Your attempt of using argument that if you completely ignore your core game combat mechanics you can design non trinity encouters as some kind of reassurance is broken. You cannot use non trinity design by using trinity combat system (we are talking about challenging content here, not content that can just ignore any kind of combat system, popularly called "zerging the stuff")
And whats exactly "FPS-like fight" and "MMO like fight"? Neither of those are inherenty trinity or not trinity systems. They are DELIBERATELY made trinity or non trinity. And pnp systems (at least notable ones) DIDNT use trinity, thats MMOs invention as a way to SIMPLIFY combat, nothing more. There was NO trinity before MMOs, because trinity inherently doesnt make sense in the first place.
Here is the logic you have presented:
Trinity is limited because it can't do non-trinity fights.
The non-trinity fights that do exist in trinity games don't count, because they're not the trinity.
Maybe you'd like to straighten out your story and pick a logical stance to argue?
The lack of trinity in PnP RPGs made for very bland combat. Roles were weakly defined and most classes were quite shallow (only spellcasters got anything resembling tactical decision-making.) AD&D 2nd simply had shallow combat (and by extension so did all the games based on its combat.) Wasn't til 4E that combat became more of a tactical thing; in part because of the introduction of many trinity elements (few outright taunts existed, but significant penalties were incurred if the monster didn't attack the leader that marked it.)
Not all gamers wanted deep, involved, tactical combat in their PnP RPGs, but that's simply their preference, not a failure of the system.
So for myself, as someone who enjoys combat with meaningful decisions, the addition of trinity to PnP RPGs made combat far more enjoyable. Suddenly it was a puzzle; a game to figure out and master.
lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)
4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.
And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.
And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.
And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.
It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.
That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.
But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.
That's also why they fulfill the Massively Multiplayer part of MMORPG.
That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.
That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.
That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.
You don't see people asking if trinity games like Everquest, FFXIV, WoW, etc. are MMO, they're MMO, they fulfill the multiplayer part, the players depend on each other, they play together.
What I have seen over the last couple of years, especially from Korea, are games that the media calls MMO, that aren't really MMO. They are action console type games wrapped into an MMO denominator, they're purely action oriented games that don't involve much cooperation or strategy, but lots of combos, lots of zerging and they are reaction type games that rely more on the reaction of players than on cooperation between players.
It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.
That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.
But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.
That's also why they fulfill the Massively Multiplayer part of MMORPG.
That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.
That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.
That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.
Needing a group is irrelevant to trinity, some encounters in GW2 require 100+ people all acting in coordinated manner. And guess what? neither of those people are pigeonholed like in trinity combat. But they STILL have roles to fulfill.
You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.
You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.
Oh zerging has a lot to do with the combat system, it has to do with the defense of classes.
Because non-trinity MMO have no aggro system, any class can get hit in those games, which resulted in those games giving much higher defense to all classes.
In a trinity game, support and healer classes have much lower defense, only tanks get the high armor class, which means zerging is almost impossible under most circumstances.
You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.
Oh zerging has a lot to do with the combat system, it has to do with the defense of classes.
Because non-trinity MMO have no aggro system, any class can get hit in those games, which resulted in those games giving much higher defense to all classes.
In a trinity game, support and healer classes have much lower defense, only tanks get the high armor class, which means zerging is almost impossible under most circumstances.
So, in another words its game dependant and not combat system dependant.
You can zerg 99% content in WoW (probably more) and thats trinity game to teh bone.
You can even zerg most group content if your stats are high enough.
You could zerg most of old school games if you highly outleveled most of the content.
It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.
That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.
What makes you think more people group in trinity games? In fact quite the opposite, there's been an explosion of lobbies to manage setting up tanks healers and dps because of the mismatch in numbers between the roles. Behaviour in those lobbied raids are pretty foul.
But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.
No they don't in fact the behaviour is pretty obnoxious a lot of the time, tanks blame healers, healers blame dps, tanks and healers feel as if they are more important the dps. No cc classes, utter dependancy on whoremeters (e.g we regularlry see shite like 'omg noob you only done x% healing!' etc don't we.)
That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.
lol they build complex functions into bosses because they cannot build complexity into the player skillsets due to balancing issues. A boss fight has 50 patterns to rote learn is as far as it goes.
That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.
No, they have the complex structure to manage the dependency on x tanks and x healers to be able to even run events and to distribute loot.
That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.
lol 99% of trinity is zerging, in fact some content is so broken due to balance you can actually drop one of the trinity.
You don't see people asking if trinity games like Everquest, FFXIV, WoW, etc. are MMO, they're MMO, they fulfill the multiplayer part, the players depend on each other, they play together.
Do the players depend on each other?, or do they depend on the 3 roles, i.e raid is not viable if one of the roles is absent.
What I have seen over the last couple of years, especially from Korea, are games that the media calls MMO, that aren't really MMO. They are action console type games wrapped into an MMO denominator, they're purely action oriented games that don't involve much cooperation or strategy, but lots of combos, lots of zerging and they are reaction type games that rely more on the reaction of players than on cooperation between players.
'action' is not the opposite of Trinity. Nothing is the opposite of trinity, the alternative is where there is cc skills and kiting skills are actually used and players can act as hybrid tankhealer/cc/kiters/dps.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.
I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.
People like you is why I turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me
It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.
For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.
What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.
People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.
He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU. Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
can't take your reply very serious with statement like that, they don't make sense to me
Trinity has extremely low amounts of zerging, because many classes have low defense in trinity systems, since they are support classes, which means low defense, which makes them much too vulnerable for zerg.
Unlike action MMO, where defense of classes is buffed to allow anyone to DPS.
Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.
I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.
People like you is why I turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me
It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.
For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.
What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.
People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.
He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU. Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.
No I have a problem with him calling me "elitist prick", "pile of feces" and "jerk".
And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean.
Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.
Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.
I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.
People like you is why I turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me
It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.
For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.
What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.
People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.
He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU. Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.
No I have a problem with him calling me "elitist prick", "pile of feces" and "jerk".
And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean.
Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.
And there is nothing wrong with my English.
Report me for what? Presenting a view you don't like?
As for your understanding of English...
BadSpock: I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you
Kiyoris: you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs
Loktofeit: He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU.
Kiyoris: And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean. Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.
You misunderstood both his statement and mine, accusing him of having no issue with racial slurs and accusing me of defending him for pointing out that wasn't what he said. You can see this pattern in your responses throughout this massive thread, which is why I asked if you were doing it intentionally or just not familiar with the language.
So, take a breather man. Get rest and come back when you can look at things a bit more clearly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
can't take your reply very serious with statement like that, they don't make sense to me
Trinity has extremely low amounts of zerging, because many classes have low defense in trinity systems, since they are support classes, which means low defense, which makes them much too vulnerable for zerg.
Unlike action MMO, where defense of classes is buffed to allow anyone to DPS.
Lets take wow for an example:
5 mans tanking and healing is largely irrelevant, you just burn through everything and ignore boss special attacks.
ditto all raids appart from the higher levels of difficulty. you rush through the raid, you dps everything, you ignore many attack patterns because you overpower it.
99% is an exaggeration maybe 90% of the time you entirely ignore damage and just zerg. Granted though the underlying issue is that trinity games tend to be power based, and wow is a mess in that regard, but its still the flagship trinity game out there.
Action mmos have nothing to do with this, the word 'action' is another strawman argument. Replace action with a game that has viable cc/kiting/support/dps/healer/tanking skills that people can use/pick then you are nearer the mark. In this case, everyone manages aggro, some use kiting skills, other cc and go defensive, others tank through it. A lot more interesting and group orientated than playing who will be number one on the meters, which is ofc what happens with dps/hps/damage taken.
I think the OP was wrong in saying trinity is superior (how can simplified and stagnant be superior) , but I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.
Agreed. It has a structured character development and combat system that makes it easy to learn and accessible even for a new player.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
from what i've read in this thread, people really need to get over the concept that zerging is a tactic as old as warfare itself, its not a recent thing, overpowering the enemy using numbers has existed since the dawn of civilization, in fact, its part of the natural tactics of some species. humanity is the only sentient race that thinks quality wins over quantity most of the time.
its something you cannot balance, even in MOBAs the use of overwhelming numbers is a valid tactic (getting 1v2/3/4/5 ganks). you can only counter that either being an incredibly broken character or being several lvls higher than them. and that only ensures you can survive enough for taking down one or two depending if they have crowd control.
so no, zerging is not a recent invention, its just one of the most basic and safe tactics to do in battle, and in a controlled environment as in MMOs is worth exploiting because of it. the devs are only obligued to make it the least annoying as possible, but it cannot be eliminated alltogether without adding certain unfair mechanics.
if you want fair PvP the only option are duels, warfare was never meant to be fair, even less in games, when there's no real organization, no real strategy, games like EVE have fleet commanders and all the thing but still, the final word of power comes from how many people can you land on the battlefield. without real consequences there's no way to balance the zerg rush, that doesnt happen in an online game, if you loose units they will respawn and can enter the battle again later, IRL if you loose forces you have to either retreat or loose alltogether, the chances of defeating the enemy in battle with number imbalance is extremely rare.
as for the trinity system itself, well, rock/paper/scissors has always been a valid system for balancing, but limits the customization of the characters in the game, and customization is the new flavor that comes for most of the new games, the industry is shifting from static classes to dinamic skill systems, over specialization can be counterproductive the same way as generalism can be a downer in some cases. the trinity is not enough anymore.
if someone wants to support he should have the right to do it without being obligued to chose X or Y class. the same way as someone would like to choose of tanking or dealing damage. class based systems have to be scrapped and there has to exist a real choice based system for players.
in the end, the problems of PvP are a result of player behavior more than game mechanics, the players are the ones who find the ways to exploit the system for their benefit...it doesnt matter if the game has trinity or not
I do enjoy both but the non-trinity when playing with likeminded players to me is more challenging because you really need to think of a proper strategie where at many times it might fail thus making it more challenging. Like-minded to me means people that learn from playing the game and not those who look up class guide's, skill calculators etc.. Yes I know "we" are rare....
If I want more of a relaxe mode and still use strategie I'll choose the trinity, everyone knows their role and position, there are no real suprises within the group, unless it might be a random pug. But playing trinity with those you know does get you from point A to point B much faster thus slightly less challenging for me.
Both need communications with eachother though the non-trinity game might end up being zerg sooner then a trinity game.
lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)
4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.
And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.
And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.
And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.
I did limit myself to encounters. Flame Leviathan was an encounter. It did go outside the boundaries of trinity rules.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. If your criticism is an inability to screw around too much with class ratios ("we need 2 tanks and 5 healers for this fight") then I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Without needing tanks, healers, and DPS, you'd just have some random mix of classes and none of those strategic-level decisions would matter. The need for a specific mix is why those strategic decisions exist.
I agree 4E wasn't popular, but that wasn't a failing of the trinity elements it added. It was that the PnP market generally didn't want good combat, they wanted short combat.
As for rubik's cubes, in part that's just the game that's been designed. "Variations on a rubik's cube" is simply the design they use to get to that point -- they design core rubiks cubes for heal/tank/DPS, create variants for each class, create bosses which deliberately alter the optimal solution, and allow teammate performance to alter your optimal solution. With all of these dynamic factors, the puzzle ends up remaining interesting a very long time.
It's easy to say you're tired of rubik's cubes, but if you want to play another puzzle, you generally just play another genre (which is sort of what I was getting at in my earlier post that mentioned fighting game combat.)
The reason this approach is based in how difficult it is to create one enjoyable rubik's cube (which you can see in the mediocre combat of most MMORPGs: it's hard to create fun combat.) So instead of trying to create 5+ different enjoyable puzzles, you focus on getting the one puzzle right, and making it very varied and dynamic. It's easy to ask for 5+ different puzzles, but realistically it isn't going to happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)
4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.
And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.
And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.
And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.
I did limit myself to encounters. Flame Leviathan was an encounter. It did go outside the boundaries of trinity rules.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. If your criticism is an inability to screw around too much with class ratios ("we need 2 tanks and 5 healers for this fight") then I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Without needing tanks, healers, and DPS, you'd just have some random mix of classes and none of those strategic-level decisions would matter. The need for a specific mix is why those strategic decisions exist.
I agree 4E wasn't popular, but that wasn't a failing of the trinity elements it added. It was that the PnP market generally didn't want good combat, they wanted short combat.
As for rubik's cubes, in part that's just the game that's been designed. "Variations on a rubik's cube" is simply the design they use to get to that point -- they design core rubiks cubes for heal/tank/DPS, create variants for each class, create bosses which deliberately alter the optimal solution, and allow teammate performance to alter your optimal solution. With all of these dynamic factors, the puzzle ends up remaining interesting a very long time.
It's easy to say you're tired of rubik's cubes, but if you want to play another puzzle, you generally just play another genre (which is sort of what I was getting at in my earlier post that mentioned fighting game combat.)
The reason this approach is based in how difficult it is to create one enjoyable rubik's cube (which you can see in the mediocre combat of most MMORPGs: it's hard to create fun combat.) So instead of trying to create 5+ different enjoyable puzzles, you focus on getting the one puzzle right, and making it very varied and dynamic. It's easy to ask for 5+ different puzzles, but realistically it isn't going to happen.
No you didnt, you mix "game" with "encounter", and that encounter doesnt use trinity and dont have to be in trinity boundaries. But its super limited because their core combat system is trinity.
You cannot screw with classes at all pretty much and are required to bring exactly what you are required to bring, theres no strategic level decisions, if there are they screwed up in the design, because something doesnt function as it should.
It WAS the failing because rpgs are not envisioned as combat simulators, combat is means to and end (just as avoiding combat, both equally valid) not the end, and thats what MMOs failed to bring alive, they just ported combat stats.
Theres no variations to rubiks cube, its just rubiks cube A, B and C. And by your logic PUGs should be the most interesting thing in MMOs. But theyre not.
And thats the root of the problem - many people are getting tired of rubiks cube and want a new thingy, but just another rubiks cube in different wrapper, and just saying "go play another genre" aint a solution because thats exactly what many people did, insiting on "traditional" brings staleness, what is stale dies.
i didnt say its easy, why shuld everything be easy, trinity is "stable" combat, and can produce only medicore results, when you move away from it you can produce awesome combat, but also really bad combat. As i already said, its something MMOas will have to deal with if they want to be relevant genre in the future. Is it easy? No. Should it just be dropped and just use easy solution - trinity - no again. Its one thing that is ripe for change and GW2 set a good stepping stone.
Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other.
If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.
Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.
Non holy trinity mechanics do not diminish the importance of the group - they diminish the importance of certain roles fullfiled by a single individual that the holy trinity glorify.
All MMORPGs have a giant metric ton of solo play - the open world questing is all solo.
The holy trinity only exist in the confines of certain instances or activities that are the minority of the gameplay.
And of course there are alternatives to that.
Look at Tequatl or the Triple Wurm encounters or the Silverwastes in GW2 - there are multiple roles to be filled or otherwise result in failure.
A role doesn't have to be "I can take hits", "I can deal damage", "I can heal your damage".
A role can be "I can escort the resource dolyak", "I can defend the outpost", "I can man the siege weapons", "I can scout".
Why do computer games that can model certain aspects of the physical world have to use systems that P&P RPGs and card games (example, Lord of the Rings LCG) that cannot model the physical world?
But anyone can take that role, any class. What you are describing is a role that in certain types of gameplay a character of any class needs to fill. I like the idea, but it seems rarely used in GW2?
Unless you are going to have the roles you describe every time a group forms, the only way is to have a group combat mechanic. Does not have to be trinity, but there does have to be something other than a Zerg. Lotro and ESO had roles of the type you mention in raids while still having a trinity. (ESO far less so).
The idea of roles that you mentioned has spiced up raids so very in favour of them, but alone that's not enough.
But anyone can take that role, any class. What you are describing is a role that in certain types of gameplay a character of any class needs to fill. I like the idea, but it seems rarely used in GW2?
Unless you are going to have the roles you describe every time a group forms, the only way is to have a group combat mechanic. Does not have to be trinity, but there does have to be something other than a Zerg. Lotro and ESO had roles of the type you mention in raids while still having a trinity. (ESO far less so).
The idea of roles that you mentioned has spiced up raids so very in favour of them, but alone that's not enough.
Is that a problem that any class can fill any role?
Aren't holy trinity games starting to give every class a tank spec, a dps spec and a healer spec anyway?
As long as to fit each role your build is different, you have tons of variety (for example in GW2 WvW every class roaming build is different from the zerg vs zerg build).
It isn't widely used atm in GW2 but all the hints indicate that GW2:HoT will have a ton of this gameplay.
And you say something other than a zerg, but what is the difference between GW2 25 guys hitting a boss or WoW 20 out 25 guys hitting a boss?
Is a handful of guys that smash the buttons to heal instead of damage or raise threat/capture aggro such a significant difference?
It is not as if you even to socialize these days with tools to get raid groups and raid group sizes that keep dwindling and dwindling.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
No you didnt, you mix "game" with "encounter", and that encounter doesnt use trinity and dont have to be in trinity boundaries. But its super limited because their core combat system is trinity.
You cannot screw with classes at all pretty much and are required to bring exactly what you are required to bring, theres no strategic level decisions, if there are they screwed up in the design, because something doesnt function as it should.
It WAS the failing because rpgs are not envisioned as combat simulators, combat is means to and end (just as avoiding combat, both equally valid) not the end, and thats what MMOs failed to bring alive, they just ported combat stats.
Theres no variations to rubiks cube, its just rubiks cube A, B and C. And by your logic PUGs should be the most interesting thing in MMOs. But theyre not.
And thats the root of the problem - many people are getting tired of rubiks cube and want a new thingy, but just another rubiks cube in different wrapper, and just saying "go play another genre" aint a solution because thats exactly what many people did, insiting on "traditional" brings staleness, what is stale dies.
i didnt say its easy, why shuld everything be easy, trinity is "stable" combat, and can produce only medicore results, when you move away from it you can produce awesome combat, but also really bad combat. As i already said, its something MMOas will have to deal with if they want to be relevant genre in the future. Is it easy? No. Should it just be dropped and just use easy solution - trinity - no again. Its one thing that is ripe for change and GW2 set a good stepping stone.
You can't complain about trinity as a boundary by ignoring all the places where the boundary was broken. Some fights completely exist outside the boundaries of the trinity, and many fights involve at least some boundary-breaking.
When you're a tank in Flame Leviathan, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude inside a steam tank.
When you're on flamethrower duty in Brackenspore, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude burning away the encroaching fungus.
And even when you're just avoiding pain zones, you're temporarily not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude trying to avoid being killed.
All of these things break the boundaries you're talking about, even if just for a very short duration.
For PnP RPGs, the trinity wasn't the failing. The decision to pursue deeper combat was the mistake.
The rubik's cube has plenty of variation. Each class plays differently, which is further disrupted by boss, player, and sometimes other factors. I PUG all the time in part because of the dynamic challenges those random teammates provide (this tank is bad at playing his damage-mitigation game, so I have to heal him nonstop; that tank is bad at holding mobs, so I use CC; another tank plays perfectly with high-end gear, so I can focus on adding DPS.)
If you're tired of the rubiks cube, stop choosing rubiks cube games. Fighting, RTS, FPS, and MOBAs aren't even the full list of alternatives out there. Don't repeat the same decision expecting a different outcome.
Your claim that moving away from the trinity could produce awesome combat needs to come with either an example game or at least a conceptual path to something better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.
Agreed. It has a structured character development and combat system that makes it easy to learn and accessible even for a new player.
Of course there is, but its one thing to say there is a place, completely another to say usual stuff like
only trinity works
trinity is superior
trinity encourages grouping
trinty has better community
...
because THAT is false, all that it does is demonstrating that poster doesnt understand what hes talking about
You're preaching to the choir.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No you didnt, you mix "game" with "encounter", and that encounter doesnt use trinity and dont have to be in trinity boundaries. But its super limited because their core combat system is trinity.
You cannot screw with classes at all pretty much and are required to bring exactly what you are required to bring, theres no strategic level decisions, if there are they screwed up in the design, because something doesnt function as it should.
It WAS the failing because rpgs are not envisioned as combat simulators, combat is means to and end (just as avoiding combat, both equally valid) not the end, and thats what MMOs failed to bring alive, they just ported combat stats.
Theres no variations to rubiks cube, its just rubiks cube A, B and C. And by your logic PUGs should be the most interesting thing in MMOs. But theyre not.
And thats the root of the problem - many people are getting tired of rubiks cube and want a new thingy, but just another rubiks cube in different wrapper, and just saying "go play another genre" aint a solution because thats exactly what many people did, insiting on "traditional" brings staleness, what is stale dies.
i didnt say its easy, why shuld everything be easy, trinity is "stable" combat, and can produce only medicore results, when you move away from it you can produce awesome combat, but also really bad combat. As i already said, its something MMOas will have to deal with if they want to be relevant genre in the future. Is it easy? No. Should it just be dropped and just use easy solution - trinity - no again. Its one thing that is ripe for change and GW2 set a good stepping stone.
You can't complain about trinity as a boundary by ignoring all the places where the boundary was broken. Some fights completely exist outside the boundaries of the trinity, and many fights involve at least some boundary-breaking.
When you're a tank in Flame Leviathan, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude inside a steam tank.
When you're on flamethrower duty in Brackenspore, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude burning away the encroaching fungus.
And even when you're just avoiding pain zones, you're temporarily not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude trying to avoid being killed.
All of these things break the boundaries you're talking about, even if just for a very short duration.
For PnP RPGs, the trinity wasn't the failing. The decision to pursue deeper combat was the mistake.
The rubik's cube has plenty of variation. Each class plays differently, which is further disrupted by boss, player, and sometimes other factors. I PUG all the time in part because of the dynamic challenges those random teammates provide (this tank is bad at playing his damage-mitigation game, so I have to heal him nonstop; that tank is bad at holding mobs, so I use CC; another tank plays perfectly with high-end gear, so I can focus on adding DPS.)
If you're tired of the rubiks cube, stop choosing rubiks cube games. Fighting, RTS, FPS, and MOBAs aren't even the full list of alternatives out there. Don't repeat the same decision expecting a different outcome.
Your claim that moving away from the trinity could produce awesome combat needs to come with either an example game or at least a conceptual path to something better.
Wut?
Flame leviathan is not trinity encounter.
Trinity encounter HAS to oblige trinity rules, even if you avoid you red circles of death healer is still healer with its threat number that has to heal people, and tank is still tank that has to hold aggro. Just because healer avoids red circle of death doesnt make him tank that will tank from now on (or any othe role) lol
Red circles of death are NOT trinity exlusive, skill rotations are NOT trinity exlusive. What IS trinity exlusive is tank-dps-healer relation, and, in currrent incarnation fixed/forced roles, thats ALL that trinity is.
For PnP RPGs trinity was mistake. Because thats what you call "deeper combat". in RPGs combat is just one of the tools.
Oh yeah, PUGs are now pinnacle of trinity games...Youre reaching here. very hard
Im not choosing a rubiks cube game lol who said i was choosing as rubiks cube game, my main MMO is GW2, atm i play ESO in parts that doesnt require trinity. In other words im playing for the story and RPG part.
But anyone can take that role, any class. What you are describing is a role that in certain types of gameplay a character of any class needs to fill. I like the idea, but it seems rarely used in GW2?
Unless you are going to have the roles you describe every time a group forms, the only way is to have a group combat mechanic. Does not have to be trinity, but there does have to be something other than a Zerg. Lotro and ESO had roles of the type you mention in raids while still having a trinity. (ESO far less so).
The idea of roles that you mentioned has spiced up raids so very in favour of them, but alone that's not enough.
Is that a problem that any class can fill any role?
Aren't holy trinity games starting to give every class a tank spec, a dps spec and a healer spec anyway?
As long as to fit each role your build is different, you have tons of variety (for example in GW2 WvW every class roaming build is different from the zerg vs zerg build).
It isn't widely used atm in GW2 but all the hints indicate that GW2:HoT will have a ton of this gameplay.
And you say something other than a zerg, but what is the difference between GW2 25 guys hitting a boss or WoW 20 out 25 guys hitting a boss?
Is a handful of guys that smash the buttons to heal instead of damage or raise threat/capture aggro such a significant difference?
It is not as if you even to socialize these days with tools to get raid groups and raid group sizes that keep dwindling and dwindling.
Yes any class fulfilling any role is a problem, it means any class is like any other, apart from flashy graphics. You are losing a tactical element, and heading right down the easymode route. Players talk of the vast difference there is in playing classes in games were they are defined, so yes it is very different to heal than say dps.
Flexibility of build is not a bad thing as long as you can not transfer between builds at no cost.
It is the current design that knocked socialising on the head, going even further down that route will just be giving it an extra whack. It is all done in guilds now, which is part of the reason it has declined using grouping tools.
Variation is nearly always going to better than similarity in a game, so group mechanics are a plus. But as I said it does not have to be trinity, just not a zerg.
Comments
Sounds more like an Eastern thing then an action or trinity thing to me. I prefer some semblance of Trinity but not at the expense of static roles. The trinity's major flaw is that no matter how large you make the group size you will forever have an overabundance of DPS to Tank/Healer. Slapping a alternate role or alternate spec still doesn't alleviate the problem. The majority of players enjoy DPS way more. This is a proven fact and if you like DPS there's no getting around the fact you're always going to be the most unwanted class. Adding in alternate roles such as CC or Puller only exacerbates the problems of a trinity system. I don;t have an answer but I was hoping EQN would of solved it. For the record most Action Games I played are way more skillful then the atypical tab Target game, where once you learn the fight it becomes easy mode. No fun in that at all for me. In an action game, positioning, timing and correct dodging is more important and offers more skill to shine though. Games like Neverwinter, ESO and Path of Exile are inherently better for me.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)
4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.
And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.
And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.
And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.
It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.
That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.
But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.
That's also why they fulfill the Massively Multiplayer part of MMORPG.
That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.
That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.
That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.
You don't see people asking if trinity games like Everquest, FFXIV, WoW, etc. are MMO, they're MMO, they fulfill the multiplayer part, the players depend on each other, they play together.
What I have seen over the last couple of years, especially from Korea, are games that the media calls MMO, that aren't really MMO. They are action console type games wrapped into an MMO denominator, they're purely action oriented games that don't involve much cooperation or strategy, but lots of combos, lots of zerging and they are reaction type games that rely more on the reaction of players than on cooperation between players.
Needing a group is irrelevant to trinity, some encounters in GW2 require 100+ people all acting in coordinated manner. And guess what? neither of those people are pigeonholed like in trinity combat. But they STILL have roles to fulfill.
You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.
Oh zerging has a lot to do with the combat system, it has to do with the defense of classes.
Because non-trinity MMO have no aggro system, any class can get hit in those games, which resulted in those games giving much higher defense to all classes.
In a trinity game, support and healer classes have much lower defense, only tanks get the high armor class, which means zerging is almost impossible under most circumstances.
So, in another words its game dependant and not combat system dependant.
You can zerg 99% content in WoW (probably more) and thats trinity game to teh bone.
You can even zerg most group content if your stats are high enough.
You could zerg most of old school games if you highly outleveled most of the content.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU. Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
can't take your reply very serious with statement like that, they don't make sense to me
Trinity has extremely low amounts of zerging, because many classes have low defense in trinity systems, since they are support classes, which means low defense, which makes them much too vulnerable for zerg.
Unlike action MMO, where defense of classes is buffed to allow anyone to DPS.
No I have a problem with him calling me "elitist prick", "pile of feces" and "jerk".
And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean.
Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.
And there is nothing wrong with my English.
Report me for what? Presenting a view you don't like?
As for your understanding of English...
You misunderstood both his statement and mine, accusing him of having no issue with racial slurs and accusing me of defending him for pointing out that wasn't what he said. You can see this pattern in your responses throughout this massive thread, which is why I asked if you were doing it intentionally or just not familiar with the language.
So, take a breather man. Get rest and come back when you can look at things a bit more clearly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lets take wow for an example:
5 mans tanking and healing is largely irrelevant, you just burn through everything and ignore boss special attacks.
ditto all raids appart from the higher levels of difficulty. you rush through the raid, you dps everything, you ignore many attack patterns because you overpower it.
99% is an exaggeration maybe 90% of the time you entirely ignore damage and just zerg. Granted though the underlying issue is that trinity games tend to be power based, and wow is a mess in that regard, but its still the flagship trinity game out there.
Action mmos have nothing to do with this, the word 'action' is another strawman argument. Replace action with a game that has viable cc/kiting/support/dps/healer/tanking skills that people can use/pick then you are nearer the mark. In this case, everyone manages aggro, some use kiting skills, other cc and go defensive, others tank through it. A lot more interesting and group orientated than playing who will be number one on the meters, which is ofc what happens with dps/hps/damage taken.
I think the OP was wrong in saying trinity is superior (how can simplified and stagnant be superior) , but I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Agreed. It has a structured character development and combat system that makes it easy to learn and accessible even for a new player.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I dont really see why is there zerg discussion.
In WoW 1-100 is all zerg and part of endgame is zerg, i would say that is 99% of content.
There is as much zerg as much game allows it, ANY game. AND theres a good reason why games allow it.
Of course there is, but its one thing to say there is a place, completely another to say usual stuff like
only trinity works
trinity is superior
trinity encourages grouping
trinty has better community
...
because THAT is false, all that it does is demonstrating that poster doesnt understand what hes talking about
from what i've read in this thread, people really need to get over the concept that zerging is a tactic as old as warfare itself, its not a recent thing, overpowering the enemy using numbers has existed since the dawn of civilization, in fact, its part of the natural tactics of some species. humanity is the only sentient race that thinks quality wins over quantity most of the time.
its something you cannot balance, even in MOBAs the use of overwhelming numbers is a valid tactic (getting 1v2/3/4/5 ganks). you can only counter that either being an incredibly broken character or being several lvls higher than them. and that only ensures you can survive enough for taking down one or two depending if they have crowd control.
so no, zerging is not a recent invention, its just one of the most basic and safe tactics to do in battle, and in a controlled environment as in MMOs is worth exploiting because of it. the devs are only obligued to make it the least annoying as possible, but it cannot be eliminated alltogether without adding certain unfair mechanics.
if you want fair PvP the only option are duels, warfare was never meant to be fair, even less in games, when there's no real organization, no real strategy, games like EVE have fleet commanders and all the thing but still, the final word of power comes from how many people can you land on the battlefield. without real consequences there's no way to balance the zerg rush, that doesnt happen in an online game, if you loose units they will respawn and can enter the battle again later, IRL if you loose forces you have to either retreat or loose alltogether, the chances of defeating the enemy in battle with number imbalance is extremely rare.
as for the trinity system itself, well, rock/paper/scissors has always been a valid system for balancing, but limits the customization of the characters in the game, and customization is the new flavor that comes for most of the new games, the industry is shifting from static classes to dinamic skill systems, over specialization can be counterproductive the same way as generalism can be a downer in some cases. the trinity is not enough anymore.
if someone wants to support he should have the right to do it without being obligued to chose X or Y class. the same way as someone would like to choose of tanking or dealing damage. class based systems have to be scrapped and there has to exist a real choice based system for players.
in the end, the problems of PvP are a result of player behavior more than game mechanics, the players are the ones who find the ways to exploit the system for their benefit...it doesnt matter if the game has trinity or not
I do enjoy both but the non-trinity when playing with likeminded players to me is more challenging because you really need to think of a proper strategie where at many times it might fail thus making it more challenging. Like-minded to me means people that learn from playing the game and not those who look up class guide's, skill calculators etc.. Yes I know "we" are rare....
If I want more of a relaxe mode and still use strategie I'll choose the trinity, everyone knows their role and position, there are no real suprises within the group, unless it might be a random pug. But playing trinity with those you know does get you from point A to point B much faster thus slightly less challenging for me.
Both need communications with eachother though the non-trinity game might end up being zerg sooner then a trinity game.
I did limit myself to encounters. Flame Leviathan was an encounter. It did go outside the boundaries of trinity rules.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. If your criticism is an inability to screw around too much with class ratios ("we need 2 tanks and 5 healers for this fight") then I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Without needing tanks, healers, and DPS, you'd just have some random mix of classes and none of those strategic-level decisions would matter. The need for a specific mix is why those strategic decisions exist.
I agree 4E wasn't popular, but that wasn't a failing of the trinity elements it added. It was that the PnP market generally didn't want good combat, they wanted short combat.
As for rubik's cubes, in part that's just the game that's been designed. "Variations on a rubik's cube" is simply the design they use to get to that point -- they design core rubiks cubes for heal/tank/DPS, create variants for each class, create bosses which deliberately alter the optimal solution, and allow teammate performance to alter your optimal solution. With all of these dynamic factors, the puzzle ends up remaining interesting a very long time.
It's easy to say you're tired of rubik's cubes, but if you want to play another puzzle, you generally just play another genre (which is sort of what I was getting at in my earlier post that mentioned fighting game combat.)
The reason this approach is based in how difficult it is to create one enjoyable rubik's cube (which you can see in the mediocre combat of most MMORPGs: it's hard to create fun combat.) So instead of trying to create 5+ different enjoyable puzzles, you focus on getting the one puzzle right, and making it very varied and dynamic. It's easy to ask for 5+ different puzzles, but realistically it isn't going to happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No you didnt, you mix "game" with "encounter", and that encounter doesnt use trinity and dont have to be in trinity boundaries. But its super limited because their core combat system is trinity.
You cannot screw with classes at all pretty much and are required to bring exactly what you are required to bring, theres no strategic level decisions, if there are they screwed up in the design, because something doesnt function as it should.
It WAS the failing because rpgs are not envisioned as combat simulators, combat is means to and end (just as avoiding combat, both equally valid) not the end, and thats what MMOs failed to bring alive, they just ported combat stats.
Theres no variations to rubiks cube, its just rubiks cube A, B and C. And by your logic PUGs should be the most interesting thing in MMOs. But theyre not.
And thats the root of the problem - many people are getting tired of rubiks cube and want a new thingy, but just another rubiks cube in different wrapper, and just saying "go play another genre" aint a solution because thats exactly what many people did, insiting on "traditional" brings staleness, what is stale dies.
i didnt say its easy, why shuld everything be easy, trinity is "stable" combat, and can produce only medicore results, when you move away from it you can produce awesome combat, but also really bad combat. As i already said, its something MMOas will have to deal with if they want to be relevant genre in the future. Is it easy? No. Should it just be dropped and just use easy solution - trinity - no again. Its one thing that is ripe for change and GW2 set a good stepping stone.
But anyone can take that role, any class. What you are describing is a role that in certain types of gameplay a character of any class needs to fill. I like the idea, but it seems rarely used in GW2?
Unless you are going to have the roles you describe every time a group forms, the only way is to have a group combat mechanic. Does not have to be trinity, but there does have to be something other than a Zerg. Lotro and ESO had roles of the type you mention in raids while still having a trinity. (ESO far less so).
The idea of roles that you mentioned has spiced up raids so very in favour of them, but alone that's not enough.
Is that a problem that any class can fill any role?
Aren't holy trinity games starting to give every class a tank spec, a dps spec and a healer spec anyway?
As long as to fit each role your build is different, you have tons of variety (for example in GW2 WvW every class roaming build is different from the zerg vs zerg build).
It isn't widely used atm in GW2 but all the hints indicate that GW2:HoT will have a ton of this gameplay.
And you say something other than a zerg, but what is the difference between GW2 25 guys hitting a boss or WoW 20 out 25 guys hitting a boss?
Is a handful of guys that smash the buttons to heal instead of damage or raise threat/capture aggro such a significant difference?
It is not as if you even to socialize these days with tools to get raid groups and raid group sizes that keep dwindling and dwindling.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
You can't complain about trinity as a boundary by ignoring all the places where the boundary was broken. Some fights completely exist outside the boundaries of the trinity, and many fights involve at least some boundary-breaking.
All of these things break the boundaries you're talking about, even if just for a very short duration.
For PnP RPGs, the trinity wasn't the failing. The decision to pursue deeper combat was the mistake.
The rubik's cube has plenty of variation. Each class plays differently, which is further disrupted by boss, player, and sometimes other factors. I PUG all the time in part because of the dynamic challenges those random teammates provide (this tank is bad at playing his damage-mitigation game, so I have to heal him nonstop; that tank is bad at holding mobs, so I use CC; another tank plays perfectly with high-end gear, so I can focus on adding DPS.)
If you're tired of the rubiks cube, stop choosing rubiks cube games. Fighting, RTS, FPS, and MOBAs aren't even the full list of alternatives out there. Don't repeat the same decision expecting a different outcome.
Your claim that moving away from the trinity could produce awesome combat needs to come with either an example game or at least a conceptual path to something better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're preaching to the choir.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Wut?
Flame leviathan is not trinity encounter.
Trinity encounter HAS to oblige trinity rules, even if you avoid you red circles of death healer is still healer with its threat number that has to heal people, and tank is still tank that has to hold aggro. Just because healer avoids red circle of death doesnt make him tank that will tank from now on (or any othe role) lol
Red circles of death are NOT trinity exlusive, skill rotations are NOT trinity exlusive. What IS trinity exlusive is tank-dps-healer relation, and, in currrent incarnation fixed/forced roles, thats ALL that trinity is.
For PnP RPGs trinity was mistake. Because thats what you call "deeper combat". in RPGs combat is just one of the tools.
Oh yeah, PUGs are now pinnacle of trinity games...Youre reaching here. very hard
Im not choosing a rubiks cube game lol who said i was choosing as rubiks cube game, my main MMO is GW2, atm i play ESO in parts that doesnt require trinity. In other words im playing for the story and RPG part.
I already gave you an example.
Yes any class fulfilling any role is a problem, it means any class is like any other, apart from flashy graphics. You are losing a tactical element, and heading right down the easymode route. Players talk of the vast difference there is in playing classes in games were they are defined, so yes it is very different to heal than say dps.
Flexibility of build is not a bad thing as long as you can not transfer between builds at no cost.
It is the current design that knocked socialising on the head, going even further down that route will just be giving it an extra whack. It is all done in guilds now, which is part of the reason it has declined using grouping tools.
Variation is nearly always going to better than similarity in a game, so group mechanics are a plus. But as I said it does not have to be trinity, just not a zerg.