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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    No you didnt, you mix "game" with "encounter", and that encounter doesnt use trinity and dont have to be in trinity boundaries. But its super limited because their core combat system is trinity.

    You cannot screw with classes at all pretty much and are required to bring exactly what you are required to bring, theres no strategic level decisions, if there are they screwed up in the design, because something doesnt function as it should.

    It WAS the failing because rpgs are not envisioned as combat simulators, combat is means to and end (just as avoiding combat, both equally valid) not the end, and thats what MMOs failed to bring alive, they just ported combat stats.

    Theres no variations to rubiks cube, its just rubiks cube A, B and C. And by your logic PUGs should be the most interesting thing in MMOs. But theyre not.

    And thats the root of the problem - many people are getting tired of rubiks cube and want a new thingy, but just another rubiks cube in different wrapper, and just saying "go play another genre" aint a solution because thats exactly what many people did, insiting on "traditional" brings staleness, what is stale dies.

    i didnt say its easy, why shuld everything be easy, trinity is "stable" combat, and can produce only medicore results, when you move away from it you can produce awesome combat, but also really bad combat. As i already said, its something MMOas will have to deal with if they want to be relevant genre in the future. Is it easy? No. Should it just be dropped and just use easy solution - trinity - no again. Its one thing that is ripe for change and GW2 set a good stepping stone.

    You can't complain about trinity as a boundary by ignoring all the places where the boundary was broken.  Some fights completely exist outside the boundaries of the trinity, and many fights involve at least some boundary-breaking.

    • When you're a tank in Flame Leviathan, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude inside a steam tank.
    • When you're on flamethrower duty in Brackenspore, you're not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude burning away the encroaching fungus.
    • And even when you're just avoiding pain zones, you're temporarily not one of the trinity roles, you're just a dude trying to avoid being killed.

    All of these things break the boundaries you're talking about, even if just for a very short duration.

    For PnP RPGs, the trinity wasn't the failing.  The decision to pursue deeper combat was the mistake.

    The rubik's cube has plenty of variation.  Each class plays differently, which is further disrupted by boss, player, and sometimes other factors.  I PUG all the time in part because of the dynamic challenges those random teammates provide (this tank is bad at playing his damage-mitigation game, so I have to heal him nonstop; that tank is bad at holding mobs, so I use CC; another tank plays perfectly with high-end gear, so I can focus on adding DPS.)

    If you're tired of the rubiks cube, stop choosing rubiks cube games.  Fighting, RTS, FPS, and MOBAs aren't even the full list of alternatives out there. Don't repeat the same decision expecting a different outcome.

    Your claim that moving away from the trinity could produce awesome combat needs to come with either an example game or at least a conceptual path to something better.

    Wut?

    Flame leviathan is not trinity encounter.

    Trinity encounter HAS to oblige trinity rules, even if you avoid you red circles of death healer is still healer with its threat number that has to heal people, and tank is still tank that has to hold aggro. Just because healer avoids red circle of death doesnt make him tank that will tank from now on (or any othe role) lol

    Red circles of death are NOT trinity exlusive, skill rotations are NOT trinity exlusive. What IS trinity exlusive is tank-dps-healer relation, and, in currrent incarnation fixed/forced roles, thats ALL that trinity is.

    For PnP RPGs trinity was mistake. Because thats what you call "deeper combat". in RPGs combat is just one of the tools.

    Oh yeah, PUGs are now pinnacle of trinity games...Youre reaching here. very hard

    Im not choosing a rubiks cube game lol who said i was choosing as rubiks cube game, my main MMO is GW2, atm i play ESO in parts that doesnt require trinity. In other words im playing for the story and RPG part.

    I already gave you an example.

    You oversimplify things. He showed you how the trinity can be used outside your confining boundaries. What example have you given? GW2? People have given you tons of examples of how trinity is more than pushing one button. Just because you refuse to acknowledge them doesn't mean it isn't true.

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Yes any class fulfilling any role is a problem, it means any class is like any other, apart from flashy graphics. You are losing a tactical element, and heading right down the easymode route. Players talk of the vast difference there is in playing classes in games were they are defined, so yes it is very different to heal than say dps.

    Flexibility of build is not a bad thing as long as you can not transfer between builds at no cost.

    It is the current design that knocked socialising on the head, going even further down that route will just be giving it an extra whack. It is all done in guilds now, which is part of the reason it has declined using grouping tools.

    Variation is nearly always going to better than similarity in a game, so group mechanics are a plus. But as I said it does not have to be trinity, just not a zerg.

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    Classes definitely aren't "the same" in any well-designed game like WOW.  Rotations vary considerably, even if they're performing the same role (much like how games about "killing things" can be wildly different; FPS vs. RTS vs. MMORPG)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    what....

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    Classes definitely aren't "the same" in any well-designed game like WOW.  Rotations vary considerably, even if they're performing the same role (much like how games about "killing things" can be wildly different; FPS vs. RTS vs. MMORPG)

    And rotations are not trinity exclusive, and fundamentally have nothing to do with trinity.

    You can have trinity with only one button for each class (taunt/heal/damage), and you can have non trinity game with 852 skills and 351 button presses to get skill off.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    what....

    Do you mean you choose your healing class or change anything in your build if your tank is a Warrior or a Paladin?

    Who cares what class the tank is? The tank is a tank. (with the exception of one class be completely OP and so no one play anything but that class).

    Who cares what class the healer is? The healer is the healer. No one will say "Wait, wait, if the healer is a shaman instead of a monk then I'll bring my rogue instead of my hunter".

    Same thing for the DPS classes.

    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    Classes definitely aren't "the same" in any well-designed game like WOW.  Rotations vary considerably, even if they're performing the same role (much like how games about "killing things" can be wildly different; FPS vs. RTS vs. MMORPG)

     

    Rotations are considerably different in GW2.

    My engineer plays way differently than my warrior or elementalist.

    Either the "tank", "heal" and "DPS" is the main source of unique play style and then the holy trinity games boil to 3 classes with different graphics or the main source of the unique play style is the class specific mechanics and then non-holy trinity games are in no way different.

     

    But what we keep having is the holy trinity proponents saying "roles, roles, tank, dps, healing" but then when pointed that they essentially have 3 classes with different paints they say "no, no, every class mechanic and rotation are unique and that is what give unique play styles".

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178

    Well actually there is a difference when I was playing Everquest 2 there was a ward shaman cannot remember the exact name of the class. There three types of healers. One was the reactive one where you heal as the person takes damage. Then we had the healer who placed wards and then the ward would drop after it absorbed a certain amount of damage and the third healer had heal over time. 

     

    So the tank had to know which type of healer he was dealing with because the one that placed the HOT took aggro almost immediately . So the tank had to react accordingly and protect the healer immediately by absorbing the damage meant for that healer. The reactive only when the healer healed and the ward was hardly any aggro I think. Long time since I played. Also the tanks were different from what I recalled. You had an evasive tank that would have to have wards because they could suddenly die and no HOT can save that tank. So you had to combine certain healers with certain tanks for you to be able to handle some dungeons. It was hotly debated when game first launched especially with the shared debt mechanic.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    what....

     

    Who cares what class the tank is? The tank is a tank.

     

    Knights don't MT in a game like EQ for one. If you let the Paladin tank, you won't get far. Knights don't have defensive, which means the high ATK of raid bosses is no match for them, only warriors MT.

    Knights are what we call "offtanks", they tank adds. They tend to have better and faster aggro generation and have self healing abilities. That's why they're offtanks and not MT, many of their spells are tailored to offtanking. Stuns, self-healing, taps, snares.

    Everyone cares what class the tank is in EQ. I have only dipped my toes in WoW, or EQ2 so it might be different there.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    what....

    Do you mean you choose your healing class or change anything in your build if your tank is a Warrior or a Paladin?

    Who cares what class the tank is? The tank is a tank. (with the exception of one class be completely OP and so no one play anything but that class).

    Who cares what class the healer is? The healer is the healer. No one will say "Wait, wait, if the healer is a shaman instead of a monk then I'll bring my rogue instead of my hunter".

    Same thing for the DPS classes.

    This really couldn't be more false.

    At least in my day in WoW, there was enough difference between tank and healing classes that they'd have different styles and strengths/weaknesses that would make a particular healing or tanking class more optimal for a specific encounter or even role as a tank/healer.

    Like, certain tank classes were better against slower hitting, higher damage per hit bosses, while others were better at like multi-mob tanking or absorbing magic damage vs. physical.

    Same with healers - some were better at AoE vs. single target and depending on fight mechanics with things like DoTs and area-wide damage etc. you'd want strong HoT's vs. direct healing etc.

    They have, over time, given more/less tools to the classes so that the roles were not quite as rigid - like you actually could tank-heal with a Shaman or raid-heal with a Paladin, but each "flavor" still had unique mechanics and strengths/weaknesses.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    I think from the type of replies people have about tanks and healers their experience with the varieties must be very limited for them to not know these things and make sweeping generalizations about these classes when there are different ways to heal and tank. I always admired what City of Heroes and Villains brought to the table. Totally different and innovative ways to handle content and still have the trinity with its own variation. Brute lol in Villains what a fun way to play. MM pets tank. Shield tanking.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Who cares what class the healer is? The healer is the healer. No one will say "Wait, wait, if the healer is a shaman instead of a monk then I'll bring my rogue instead of my hunter".

    That's exactly what happens. Shaman in EQ are devoted to increasing melee power, their epic is melee focused and their spells are melee focused. If there are casters in the group, I play my enchanter instead, since enchanters are better at increasing spell power. I change out classes depending on the group make-up, that's why I have several characters to begin with.

    Having extremely specific roles has always attracted me to the game, it has never detracted me from it. Each time I leveled another class, it was very a very different experience.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by kitarad
    I think from the type of replies people have about tanks and healers their experience with the varieties must be very limited for them to not know these things and make sweeping generalizations about these classes when there are different ways to heal and tank. I always admired what City of Heroes and Villains brought to the table. Totally different and innovative ways to handle content and still have the trinity with its own variation. Brute lol in Villains what a fun way to play. MM pets tank. Shield tanking.

    My Dark/Dark tank had the biggest single target heal in the game image

     

     

    It required eating the souls of an entire group of enemies, and used a boatload of endurance. Still, I could go from 1% to a full health bar.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • kaludytkkaludytk Member UncommonPosts: 45
    personally, i would like to see more games not only have the trinity, but also utilize the support role. Rift does it decently well. I miss playing a class like RDM in FFXI or mind control in COH
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    But what we keep having is the holy trinity proponents saying "roles, roles, tank, dps, healing" but then when pointed that they essentially have 3 classes with different paints they say "no, no, every class mechanic and rotation are unique and that is what give unique play styles".

    You don't have "essentially 3 classes". The orginial meaning of trinity stood for "warrior, enchanter, cleric". The only reason we started using that word is because at one time in EQ, many groups were formed around those 3 classes. It served as a good basis because the classes were quite OP at the time.

    It never included a DPS class, since DPS classes were fairly balanced.

    So there's your 4th archetype, CC. There's a 5th archetype in EQ, pullers (monk bard). That's 5.

    That's 4 more archetypes than in many games without trinity.

    CC, Puller, Tank, Healer, DPS. (add in slower and you get a very versatile game)

     

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    Actually FFXI the puller was very important we had to have a very good puller for the exp/time ratio. The person had to bring another mob just as the one before is dying.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Actually FFXI the puller was very important we had to have a very good puller for the exp/time ratio. The person had to bring another mob just as the one before is dying.

    Sounds like the Everquest bard or monk, a good puller was someone who was pulling a new mob by the time the last one was a few seconds from being dead. A bad puller was someone who couldn't get the cadence right and either brought a mob too soon, or too late.

  • HaralinHaralin Member UncommonPosts: 148
    You dont need a trinity system in MMOs Destiny shows that and you still need to talk to your Raidmembers.
  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Yes any class fulfilling any role is a problem, it means any class is like any other, apart from flashy graphics. You are losing a tactical element, and heading right down the easymode route. Players talk of the vast difference there is in playing classes in games were they are defined, so yes it is very different to heal than say dps.

    Flexibility of build is not a bad thing as long as you can not transfer between builds at no cost.

    It is the current design that knocked socialising on the head, going even further down that route will just be giving it an extra whack. It is all done in guilds now, which is part of the reason it has declined using grouping tools.

    Variation is nearly always going to better than similarity in a game, so group mechanics are a plus. But as I said it does not have to be trinity, just not a zerg.

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Certain classes are better at different aspects of their role. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977

    Are really people touting bad design/huge class imbalances as something good?

    One would think that years of flawed design in EQ1/EQ2 (also Vanguard), even early wow would actually teach people something.

    Apparently not (yup, look below, perfect example)

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    snip

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Certain classes are better at different aspects of their role. 

    So true.. So true..  During the time I played WoW, I had multiple raid ready characters..  One was my MT healer (Holy Pally), my other was a Holy Priest.. Then I had my Mage, Warlock and Hunter.. None of my characters played the same.. My only issue was Blizzards "homogenizing" the classes for PvP balance reasons, which took away a lot of options for diverse PvE fun.. 

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    But why stop there?

    Why do all the tank classes can tank the same bosses?

    Why do all DPS classes can damage the same bosses?

    Why do all healing classes can heal the same damage?

    In holy trinity games all healing classes are already the same, all dps classes are already the same (ranged or melee) all tank classes are already the same.

    You have 3 classes and then tons of different graphics.

    You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. The holy trinity was warrior/cleric/enchanter, but those were hardly the only roles in Everquest. Groups also needed dps and would look for a puller and snares.

    • You thing druids or shaman played anything like a cleric? While both were healers, they played very different roles. Which one could fill the role of slower?
    • You think a shadowknight or paladin played like a warrior? Which of the three was the worst at snap agro? Which could fill the Snare role in a group?
    • You think all dps was the same? Which could fill the snare role? Which could off-tank? Which could offer buffs or CC in a pinch? Which could pull new party members to camp, at the bottom of a dungeon?

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Are really people touting bad design/huge class imbalances as something good?

    One would think that years of flawed design in EQ1/EQ2 (also Vanguard), even early wow would actually teach people something.

    Apparently not (yup, look below, perfect example)

    Years of playing EQ/EQ2 and Vanguard, followed by years of playing other MMO's, have taught me something.

     

    Diverse classes with unique capabilities are important to immersion and teamwork, unlike more modern MMO's where there are only 2-3 solo classes with homogenized abilities and a variety of skins.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Are really people touting bad design/huge class imbalances as something good?

    One would think that years of flawed design in EQ1/EQ2 (also Vanguard), even early wow would actually teach people something.

    Apparently not (yup, look below, perfect example)

    Years of playing EQ/EQ2 and Vanguard, followed by years of playing other MMO's, have taught me something.

     

    Diverse classes with unique capabilities are important to immersion and teamwork, unlike more modern MMO's where there are only 2-3 solo classes with homogenized abilities and a variety of skins.

    Ah, yeah, so MMOs should follow deeply flawed class design with huge imbalances so you can be "immersed". All because it worked so well in the past and no game stepped away from such design.

    Right.

    Unfortunately, huge class imbalances are also not unique to trinity. You can have perfecty imbalanced non trinity game too. But that also wont happen.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066

    Suddenly the poster child for the holy trinity is EQ...

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Ah, yeah, so MMOs should follow deeply flawed class design with huge imbalances so you can be "immersed". All because it worked so well in the past and no game stepped away from such design.

    Flawed class design is over homogenization and lack of diversity.

    Flawed games designed for a generation where every child was told he was special and given a trophy for participation.

     

    And yes, Everquest worked so well it is still alive, with 21 expansions, 16 years later, unlike modern games with their population collapses 2-3 months after launch.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

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