FFXIV has what I feel a much more hectic combat system when it comes to endgame raiding, but thats in part due to its silly 2.5 Second cooldown system in which you need to perfectly weave off global CD's perfectly if you want competitive DPS. Classes like dragoon have so many debuffs and DoT's and vulnerabilites they need to manage that you wind up having one of the tightest rotations I've yet to see in a MMO. Regardless I haven't really raided in WoW so I am satifsfied in saying 14 and WoW are very similar in that regard.
Do any of the healers have a good leveling rotation? I was having a ton of fun leveling Thaumaturge, and their rotation was pretty interesting even early on , but then I hit 15 and experienced the pain of queues and decided I should just try a healer, and then I experienced the painful oversimplicity of Conjurers.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I hear people crying for innovation yet when something new comes along they just chuck it away as not an MMO.
I'll offer some titles for discussion:
H1Z1 Minecraft GTA 5
In theory, all 3 of these titles offer persistent worlds. They also offer something different than classic MMO mechanics.
So what's stopping people from enjoying these new MMO innovations?
Well, nothing. All 3 titles are in the top 10 PC games played. People are loving them along with games such as Hearthstone and LoL/Dota2 that while not offering persistent worlds do have many MMO elements to them.
MMOs have been innovated, Lord knows had Warcraft 3 has copied Warcraft 2 and not incorporated some MMO elements it stole from Everquest, we may never have seen a MOBA. We certainly would have never seen the Survival RPGS like DayZ if it wasn't for MMOs.
He has a point. I think he puts too much emphasis on the experience though. A game can have a great atmosphere or amazing detailed worlds, but if the features suck, it won't matter. Just look at GW2. A very nice detailed environment with lore, and great looking animations and models, but a lot of people don't like the features (combat, skills, progression, etc.).
Video games in general have basic elements, such as, UI, Combat, and Goals. They just get repackaged into different styles. The alternative is a virtual world simulator, where there isn't combat or goals (unless they are created).
Both need to be compatible with each other.
edit: I disagree with him that WoW is to blame though. I'm not sure why he has that in the title.
FFXIV has what I feel a much more hectic combat system when it comes to endgame raiding, but thats in part due to its silly 2.5 Second cooldown system in which you need to perfectly weave off global CD's perfectly if you want competitive DPS. Classes like dragoon have so many debuffs and DoT's and vulnerabilites they need to manage that you wind up having one of the tightest rotations I've yet to see in a MMO. Regardless I haven't really raided in WoW so I am satifsfied in saying 14 and WoW are very similar in that regard.
Do any of the healers have a good leveling rotation? I was having a ton of fun leveling Thaumaturge, and their rotation was pretty interesting even early on , but then I hit 15 and experienced the pain of queues and decided I should just try a healer, and then I experienced the painful oversimplicity of Conjurers.
The only downside of healers is that they dont really have rotations per se, generally keep 1-2 dots on mob, spame elemental attack and keep yourself topped off. Conjurer I feel is a lot more boring than say Scholar, where you micromanage your pet and can challenge yourself further by using a pet thats more Buff intensive than heals. Or you can use a heal intensive pet and just manage MULTIPLE dots and AoE's, still kinda boring though. I really dislike the way FFXIV locks you into one role and it really limits the possiblities that say WoW has, in the way that a healer can use a DPS Spec.
Originally posted by Ludwik There are parts of this argument that bother me.
I hear people crying for innovation yet when something new comes along they just chuck it away as not an MMO.
I'll offer some titles for discussion:
H1Z1 Minecraft GTA 5
In theory, all 3 of these titles offer persistent worlds. They also offer something different than classic MMO mechanics.
So what's stopping people from enjoying these new MMO innovations?
Well, nothing. All 3 titles are in the top 10 PC games played. People are loving them along with games such as Hearthstone and LoL/Dota2 that while not offering persistent worlds do have many MMO elements to them.
MMOs have been innovated, Lord knows had Warcraft 3 has copied Warcraft 2 and not incorporated some MMO elements it stole from Everquest, we may never have seen a MOBA. We certainly would have never seen the Survival RPGS like DayZ if it wasn't for MMOs.
Two of those are shooters, which I sadly have grown out of, also I have found myself staying clear of zombie survival games after the debacle that was WarZ and the sheer amount of hours I put into DayZ. H1Z1 seems like a pretty decent game, and while I feel they managed to make a fair Airdrop/Lootcrate system; the game is infested by hackers last I hear. Minecraft was totally amazing and I've played it for several years straight when it first came out. Eventually I took a step back and realized how limited the voxel unit sizes were, this was eventually further proven when SoE swooped in with a even more amazing Voxel based system that totally blew minecraft away but was limited by land claiming space. While I loved both, I find more enjoyment and feel less limited just going into Zbrush and Maya and making things instead. Its a great concept for kids to explore and create like legos, without killing their parents when they step on the legos.
ya grow a beard and play skyrim until mmos get their shit together.
people (gamers) are just jaded and cynical now by default. i dont think gamers think about it, but wow is not what it is today because it is just that good of a mmo. NAH if you are tired of all mmos you are tired of wow too.. that being said WOW made it through because it came out when MMOS were still niche. Now that WOW made them (mmos) mainstream pop culture, its going to be a long road to recovery.. meaning its going to have to die almost 100% dead then the next thing for mmos will happen. But I doubt that will be in the next 10 years though.
Side Note: WOW isnt that special.. its basically EQ with a few more features and amazing Marketing. EQ was for people who liked RPG games and wanted to play them with friends, while WOW was for anybody that liked video games in general even a little bit. I think if EQ had that marketing power back then it would be just as big if not bigger (and maybe very different) as wow.
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Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
He has a point. I think he puts too much emphasis on the experience though. A game can have a great atmosphere or amazing detailed worlds, but if the features suck, it won't matter. Just look at GW2. A very nice detailed environment with lore, and great looking animations and models, but a lot of people don't like the features (combat, skills, progression, etc.).
Video games in general have basic elements, such as, UI, Combat, and Goals. They just get repackaged into different styles. The alternative is a virtual world simulator, where there isn't combat or goals (unless they are created).
Both need to be compatible with each other.
edit: I disagree with him that WoW is to blame though. I'm not sure why he has that in the title.
I feel like I want to blame GW1 for making me unable to enjoy GW2. I couldn't really sit down an enjoy any of the classes, I liked engineer but I wanted more emphasis on turrets, I loved necro but I liked GW1 necro a slight bit more. I loved the merc system in GW1 and and even down to the abilities and combinations. Playing Warrior and having all the abilties unlocked that I needed at level 15 gave me no motivation to get to max level. The lack of the trinity caused more grief than accomplish what GW2 wanted to do with it. I won't lie and say I do like some form of gear progression, maybe even sideways progression like in FFXI. Spending all that time making a epic weapon that ultimately does nothing. Pair that with the awful instance system of RvR, where the realm with more players online to fill each INDIVIDUAL instanced zone map would win. No way of gearing or progressing in RvR, along with player culling and the host of other bugs. A lot of this has changed, but a lot of the more important things to me stayed the same.
ya grow a beard and play skyrim until mmos get their shit together.
people (gamers) are just jaded and cynical now by default. i dont think gamers think about it, but wow is not what it is today because it is just that good of a mmo. NAH if you are tired of all mmos you are tired of wow too.. that being said WOW made it through because it came out when MMOS were still niche. Now that WOW made them (mmos) mainstream pop culture, its going to be a long road to recovery.. meaning its going to have to die almost 100% dead then the next thing for mmos will happen. But I doubt that will be in the next 10 years though.
Side Note: WOW isnt that special.. its basically EQ with a few more features and amazing Marketing. EQ was for people who liked RPG games and wanted to play them with friends, while WOW was for anybody that liked video games in general even a little bit. I think if EQ had that marketing power back then it would be just as big if not bigger (and maybe very different) as wow.
I agree, but in this case the early bird gets the worm. I don't commend WoW for being a overall good game, I commend it for choosing the right time and place with the right brand influence and marketing. Pair that with its polish and all the things you can do in the game by now, made it the game it was. Vanilla was a pretty solid experience, the game has been toned down quite a bit since then but it's held onto its core principles and is now a Icon amongst its genre.
not playing right now but go play darkfall if your done with everything else
That's what I did a couple years ago. A self admitted pver player playing darkfall as there is nothing out there that offers freedom in a large dangerous world. Actual risk vs reward imagine that. I do think people should try some games out of their comfort zone once in a while. I still think the genre went way off track some time ago and now we are seeing the results. Here's hoping these indie devs will be able to deliver to some extent.
People will need to be patient with these indie devs as they will not have the resources to update and add content at a rapid rate.
All a matter of opinion (both of them). WoW keeps boring the fuck out of me each time I give it a try and resub for a month, only to lay it aside for the boredom I feel within a week. Sadly that one MMO that I really loved for it's detailed world and fantasitic gameplay (Lineage II) went the way of WoW and I immediately dropped it after having played it for around 6 years...
I'm certainly open to someone posting an objectively deeper combat rotation than WOWs. Here's the bar to beat. (Several other specs have similarly deep rotations, even though I keep linking the Demonology Warlock rotation in each thread.)
So it's really not an opinion that WOW's combat is deeper than other MMORPGs. I'm really only interested in games which are deep and strongly reward mastery, and I have yet to find one deeper than WOW (not as an opinion; objectively as a measure of their decision matrices and how many dynamic factors modify the optimal rotation in any given situation.)
I'll not say what game I think is better, but I will comment on the topic of rotation since an outlook was asked for:
In truth, I believe WoW's combat rotation in WoD is child's play when compared to FFXIV's intricacies, especially considering you have no addons to further simplify such. Here's Why: With a Dragoon's fabled 32 button rotation -- but one rotation, mind you -- and with situations demanding a change of flow and knowing exactly when and how to start a fresh rotation without losing DPS (there are combo rotations within rotations whereby the potency is increased... if you quit out too soon, you could easily lose out on 500+ potency overall... For example A Strike + A Strike = 200 potency, A Strike + B Strike = 380 potency combo'd (or 100 each, if done solo), followed by C Strike which equals an addition 400 on top of that... which all would become null and void 100 potency if not followed through). You also have to pay attention to your static composition, the landscape, boss mechanics, etc. to know when to use off GDC cooldowns -- using it at the wrong second can and probably will wipe you and your entire group with some jumps -- as well as positional strikes for maximum output (flank, back, etc.), upkeep of buffs (having to perform a combo to keep a debuff on the enemy and a buff on yourself -- several combos doing this, and knowing how long you can go or what is needed is key before having to reset a rotation or having it reset auto from avoiding mechanics or having to hold off). You're looking at rotations that host dozens of buttons, know how in how to employ them while watching for mechanics, group buffs, what abilities your allies are using, when to flat reset and not get confused due to the sheer amount of buttons you need to memorize the order of no matter where you stop. That's not even getting into single buffs or on-proc attacks, unique class mechanics, the cross class system whereby you can employ the abilities of other classes and add them into your own unique rotation, or the punishment for a single mistake. In addition to avoiding the "fire" and mechanics that are a constant threat and could potentially instantly KO your melee members in a manner most unforgiving.
Not to mention that a single mistake is very punishing (as previous stated), and can be known to wipe a group if there is a DPS check. Ninja in particular -- if a mistake didn't already kill you -- will be locked out of doing a significant amount of damage if a single hand symbol is messed up for 20 seconds. Imagine being without your best abilities for 20 seconds in WoW. For one mistake, or for a second of lag and you not being of the mind to recognize your slow casting. Hand symbols being required to be used in order, kind've like simon says but in a more static way, before the "use" or "Ninjutsu" button flashes. People oft say that combat is "slow", but in reality, by the time you get to this level of play, you keep on wishing to yourself the cooldown was a second longer as you need to have an incredible memory and reaction time in some cases to even keep up with a 2 second cooldown (haste abilities and such). In addition to off the global attacks, of which the Dragoon itself has a half dozen at least, which need to be timed perfectly after an ability to make the most of that two second gap, WHILE paying attention to everything else and noting what portion of a rotation and combo you're in.
Here's an old post regarding the Dragoon's rotation; it is the entirety of the first two forum posts in terms of what to memorize and make note of:
Note it's age and the fact that I use a rotation that someone else taught me that is supposed to be even more complex, as their claim is. So I don't know the relevance of it today (the one I linked above).
One thing about melee in the game is that they're typically the highest sustained DPS. It's very much a risk reward thing whereby complexity and getting killed in a second is rewarded with the highest DPS.
Also remember this is without addons and macros, as they are useless in combat situations due to them only reacting every whole second (in that, you get an instant reaction and then the system uses every other action one second apart by design, to prevent simplification and forms of botting). Which means you lose out on a good 15-30% of your damage if you use macros as a melee. Not to mention it being dangerous if you need to use an ability right away, but another one was used and you're locked out. This is especially true with stun mechanics with the paladin.
It's all as hectic as it sounds, whereas I could -- perhaps due to my 10+ years of playing WoW and no doubt to them cutting abilities in WoD -- just lay back in my chair and barely even think performing the "hardest" rotation in WoW at present. Avoid this, know that. Addons popping up for this and that. Raid leaders knowing my class because they're so logistically easy to understand whereas most cannot even fathom what I have on FFXIV, especially due to the cross class system. Very little babysitting in that regard.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Originally posted by Krimzin Video is spot on. I will never have the feeling again of going from Qeynos to Freeport at level 6. The absolute terror I felt on that journey has not been replicated in 16 yrs of MMO Gaming. I've played every major MMO title since EQ always looking for that feeling, but never finding it. Don't get me wrong, There have been some good games.. Just no "Great" ones.Recently I am back among the masses looking for something to play. Trolling around MMORPG and other gaming sites, looking for my next fix.The only game on the horizon that holds any interest for me atm is Pantheon. Whether it comes to pass or not is yet to be seen. Until then, I wander aimlessly.
This ^^ Exactly. I feel the same way. I loved the run from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 6.... and the fear for the baddies of the world.
Looking forward to Pantheon, for sure!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Originally posted by Krimzin Video is spot on. I will never have the feeling again of going from Qeynos to Freeport at level 6. The absolute terror I felt on that journey has not been replicated in 16 yrs of MMO Gaming. I've played every major MMO title since EQ always looking for that feeling, but never finding it. Don't get me wrong, There have been some good games.. Just no "Great" ones.
Recently I am back among the masses looking for something to play. Trolling around MMORPG and other gaming sites, looking for my next fix.
The only game on the horizon that holds any interest for me atm is Pantheon. Whether it comes to pass or not is yet to be seen. Until then, I wander aimlessly.
This ^^ Exactly. I feel the same way. I loved the run from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 6.... and the fear for the baddies of the world.
Looking forward to Pantheon, for sure!
I am going to just say it
You will never get this feeling back.
I am looking forward to Pantheon too - but it won't bring the same feeling back no matter how good it is.
The only way to get this feeling back would be to erase previous memories and experience MMORPGs as something fresh and new.
don't believe me?
Go try P99 - you can do the same run and the feeling won't be back eventhough it's the SAME game, why - we've all changed.
I am playing Project 1999, and it is a lot of fun, more than any of the current crop, so you couldn't be more wrong. And, I am looking forward to Pantheon because they do seem to understand their target audience, and it's me.
This thread is about people being tired of the same ol' stuff and the need for something truly different and it's devolved into talk about rotations.
Truly different stuff exists. Want it? Go play it.
Same-but-different stuff is impossible. Want it? Tough, your expectations are impossible.
If you want something different but it must be the same (ie it must be an MMORPG) then that's same-but-different.
Not really, some people are looking to recapture designs that were not pursued further because they were not popular.
Back in the early days, there were probably half a dozen or so roads that could have been pursued, but eventually due to popularity only one design path won out.
So, yes, people want something that is the same as something before, but different than what is currently being offered.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Ludwik There are parts of this argument that bother me.
I hear people crying for innovation yet when something new comes along they just chuck it away as not an MMO.
I'll offer some titles for discussion:
H1Z1 Minecraft GTA 5
In theory, all 3 of these titles offer persistent worlds. They also offer something different than classic MMO mechanics.
So what's stopping people from enjoying these new MMO innovations?
People are enjoying those games, and ONE of those IS an MMO. But the others aren't massively multiplayer and don't offer the same thing classic MMOs did.
nice opinion, I disagree pretty much with 90% of what you said.
mmo's ARE game. That is most logical aspect of the entire argument. If yuo want a living and breathing world, sincerely , go outside and live it.
the next logical break down :
People have their own taste of what they like. THe Op's opinion may speak to a minority or majority, but it is not speaking for me, which makes the rant invalid.
Logic 3 :
people in this current time of the EARTH, jjust aren;t patient. It;s a now now now world and developers feed them now now now games. 20 years ago, people where happy with what they could play, not what they demanded to play. SO it is up to the gamers to understand which category they game in and what games will cater to the category.
Lastly,
If the OP feels everything is repackaged, so are FPS, Driving games, `ect, because in the OP's logic, checkers started it all.
Well well, you seem to understand the true enjoyment of having your own opinion. And despite how different it may be from mine I am very glad you came here to share it with us. Your first logic I can agree with, but I cannot cast magic and slay dragons in RL. Games back then didn't need amazing graphics and gameplay to ensnare our time, and immerse us in its story. We as as "most" adults are afflicted in the way that our imagination weakens and we seek reference to create this fantasy within ourselves :P. Second logic: This isn't a target audience demographic video, it merely states what games back then focused on and compares it to what has come after it in the 10 years that followed. He is merely dissecting what HE feels in his "opinion" MMO's are compromised of and throws some of his personal experiences in between. It is not something you need to agree or let everyone else know you disagree on per se, but if you feel so inclined then feel free. Third, i cant say I disagree with you there at all, Call of duty? Madden? NBA? NHL? Gran Turismo? Need for Speed? Assassins Creed? All of these and more do really feel like repackaged games to me and its a shame that MMO's as my favorite genre are taking a page from it.
This thread is about people being tired of the same ol' stuff and the need for something truly different and it's devolved into talk about rotations.
Truly different stuff exists. Want it? Go play it.
Same-but-different stuff is impossible. Want it? Tough, your expectations are impossible.
If you want something different but it must be the same (ie it must be an MMORPG) then that's same-but-different.
Not really, some people are looking to recapture designs that were not pursued further because they were not popular.
Back in the early days, there were probably half a dozen or so roads that could have been pursued, but eventually due to popularity only one design path won out.
So, yes, people want something that is the same as something before, but different than what is currently being offered.
Won't be happening, but it could.
This is all semantics. What game producers should be looking at is the present situation and why it's failing. And what to do about it going forwards.
They need to weed out the problems to start to figure out where they can go. But instead they just keep making the same game play in a different dress.
WoW was first MMO I played (was there any before it?) that let you swim...UNDERWATER! As soon as I saw that on my troll going to Sen'Jin I was sold.
Any MMO that as lame water mechanics where you can't swim or go underwater I pretty much move on or avoid.
But that obviously is not everything.
I still play WoW for many reasons. The world is amazing. The gameplay is TONS of fun...I can play for 30 minutes and actually finish a dungeon or accomplish whatever I planned to do. Or I can play for hours and still not run out of things to do.
That brings up...WoW has SO many things to do. Its not just raid or die. Or PvP and die. You got achievements, pets, collectibles, toys...so much stuff. Even so many mounts to get. Crafting while not sophisticated is TONS of fun...and that brings me to...
Crafting. No MMO has such a fun crafting system (that I personally played). As a tailor I can make a magic carpet, or engineer I can do bombs or build a rocket or all kinds of stuff. Or alchemy I can transform into a dragon, or all kinds of different potion effects. Which again brings me...
WoW just has TONS of fun stuff. The whole game is chock full of FUN things to do. Most MMOs...the crafting is so boring. Like vanguard, that game was great...but the crafting was the most boring crafting I've ever done in an MMO. No potions, nothing fun...I hate making just armor or stuff to wear. I want to actually craft fun stuff. Vanguard had nothing fun to do like WoW did. Even going from quest to quest was really boring...all the quests were rather...created with no enthusiasam to it.
In WoW...the PvP is tons of fun. You don't lose items, no...but its just pure fun.
I think a lot of MMOs miss that.
Most MMOs either focus 100% PvP and throw in PvE just because (or avoid it all together). Or focus 100% on PvE and PvP is lackluster.
WoW has fun PvE AND PvP
WoW isn't just raid or die
WoW isn't just PvP or die
WoW is fun for casual, or hardcore
WoW lets you swim underwater (even modern MMOs still don't have that...like I tried FFXIV, The Secret World and there was another pretty recent MMO with high end graphics, and none of them didn't even have that. WTF?)
WoW has an AMAZING world. And it isn't just because its warcraft, cause to be honest I never was big into warcraft before WoW...I never even read anything about warcraft, it never interested me.
WoW has TONS of side-content...so much content. I know a lot avoid old content and just do endgame raiding, but I still go back to collect pets/mounts and other items from old content and I'm still not even NEARLY close to finishing WoW at all
Now I know a new MMO released probably can't match the same amount of content...but no new MMO I've tried has such a fun game, with an amazing world and a lot of fun things to craft and do.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Originally posted by Krimzin Video is spot on. I will never have the feeling again of going from Qeynos to Freeport at level 6. The absolute terror I felt on that journey has not been replicated in 16 yrs of MMO Gaming. I've played every major MMO title since EQ always looking for that feeling, but never finding it. Don't get me wrong, There have been some good games.. Just no "Great" ones.
Recently I am back among the masses looking for something to play. Trolling around MMORPG and other gaming sites, looking for my next fix.
The only game on the horizon that holds any interest for me atm is Pantheon. Whether it comes to pass or not is yet to be seen. Until then, I wander aimlessly.
This ^^ Exactly. I feel the same way. I loved the run from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 6.... and the fear for the baddies of the world.
Looking forward to Pantheon, for sure!
I am going to just say it
You will never get this feeling back.
I am looking forward to Pantheon too - but it won't bring the same feeling back no matter how good it is.
The only way to get this feeling back would be to erase previous memories and experience MMORPGs as something fresh and new.
don't believe me?
Go try P99 - you can do the same run and the feeling won't be back eventhough it's the SAME game, why - we've all changed.
I am playing Project 1999, and it is a lot of fun, more than any of the current crop, so you couldn't be more wrong. And, I am looking forward to Pantheon because they do seem to understand their target audience, and it's me.
^^^ This, I am currently enjoying my time in FFXI to which I resubbed a week after they announced the final 3 addons to the game in which i goes on life support after. Do I care? No I do not, finally after almost a decade both of my favorite classes got reworks and buffs that are fare more than I could ever ask for. Whats more ironic is that FFXI started making events that utilize flex raiding mechanics (you can do things with as little as 3 people and rewards scale based on increase in members, of course by increasing a scaling difficulty slider if you manage to find more members) before FFXIV >.>. So me and my two RL friends are making a our mythic weapons and I'm pleased as punch, as well as taking my roommate in to the fold and leveling jobs with him old school.
WoW was first MMO I played (was there any before it?) that let you swim...UNDERWATER! As soon as I saw that on my troll going to Sen'Jin I was sold.
Any MMO that as lame water mechanics where you can't swim or go underwater I pretty much move on or avoid.
But that obviously is not everything.
I still play WoW for many reasons. The world is amazing. The gameplay is TONS of fun...I can play for 30 minutes and actually finish a dungeon or accomplish whatever I planned to do. Or I can play for hours and still not run out of things to do.
That brings up...WoW has SO many things to do. Its not just raid or die. Or PvP and die. You got achievements, pets, collectibles, toys...so much stuff. Even so many mounts to get. Crafting while not sophisticated is TONS of fun...and that brings me to...
Crafting. No MMO has such a fun crafting system (that I personally played). As a tailor I can make a magic carpet, or engineer I can do bombs or build a rocket or all kinds of stuff. Or alchemy I can transform into a dragon, or all kinds of different potion effects. Which again brings me...
WoW just has TONS of fun stuff. The whole game is chock full of FUN things to do. Most MMOs...the crafting is so boring. Like vanguard, that game was great...but the crafting was the most boring crafting I've ever done in an MMO. No potions, nothing fun...I hate making just armor or stuff to wear. I want to actually craft fun stuff. Vanguard had nothing fun to do like WoW did. Even going from quest to quest was really boring...all the quests were rather...created with no enthusiasam to it.
In WoW...the PvP is tons of fun. You don't lose items, no...but its just pure fun.
I think a lot of MMOs miss that.
Most MMOs either focus 100% PvP and throw in PvE just because (or avoid it all together). Or focus 100% on PvE and PvP is lackluster.
WoW has fun PvE AND PvP
WoW isn't just raid or die
WoW isn't just PvP or die
WoW is fun for casual, or hardcore
WoW lets you swim underwater (even modern MMOs still don't have that...like I tried FFXIV, The Secret World and there was another pretty recent MMO with high end graphics, and none of them didn't even have that. WTF?)
WoW has an AMAZING world. And it isn't just because its warcraft, cause to be honest I never was big into warcraft before WoW...I never even read anything about warcraft, it never interested me.
WoW has TONS of side-content...so much content. I know a lot avoid old content and just do endgame raiding, but I still go back to collect pets/mounts and other items from old content and I'm still not even NEARLY close to finishing WoW at all
Now I know a new MMO released probably can't match the same amount of content...but no new MMO I've tried has such a fun game, with an amazing world and a lot of fun things to craft and do.
Which goes without saying, WoW is great because It created its own identity. Its great that you find enjoyment in the last MMO of the original decade, before everything took a nosedive. As a added perk wow has had 10 years to refine its systems/classes/content/graphics/gamplay, the list goes on and on, all while those poor fools kept trying to replicate its success. The game is truly a gem to those who can enjoy the game, sometimes I almost feel jealous :P.
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Do any of the healers have a good leveling rotation? I was having a ton of fun leveling Thaumaturge, and their rotation was pretty interesting even early on , but then I hit 15 and experienced the pain of queues and decided I should just try a healer, and then I experienced the painful oversimplicity of Conjurers.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I hear people crying for innovation yet when something new comes along they just chuck it away as not an MMO.
I'll offer some titles for discussion:
H1Z1
Minecraft
GTA 5
In theory, all 3 of these titles offer persistent worlds. They also offer something different than classic MMO mechanics.
So what's stopping people from enjoying these new MMO innovations?
Well, nothing. All 3 titles are in the top 10 PC games played. People are loving them along with games such as Hearthstone and LoL/Dota2 that while not offering persistent worlds do have many MMO elements to them.
MMOs have been innovated, Lord knows had Warcraft 3 has copied Warcraft 2 and not incorporated some MMO elements it stole from Everquest, we may never have seen a MOBA. We certainly would have never seen the Survival RPGS like DayZ if it wasn't for MMOs.
He has a point. I think he puts too much emphasis on the experience though. A game can have a great atmosphere or amazing detailed worlds, but if the features suck, it won't matter. Just look at GW2. A very nice detailed environment with lore, and great looking animations and models, but a lot of people don't like the features (combat, skills, progression, etc.).
Video games in general have basic elements, such as, UI, Combat, and Goals. They just get repackaged into different styles. The alternative is a virtual world simulator, where there isn't combat or goals (unless they are created).
Both need to be compatible with each other.
edit: I disagree with him that WoW is to blame though. I'm not sure why he has that in the title.
The only downside of healers is that they dont really have rotations per se, generally keep 1-2 dots on mob, spame elemental attack and keep yourself topped off. Conjurer I feel is a lot more boring than say Scholar, where you micromanage your pet and can challenge yourself further by using a pet thats more Buff intensive than heals. Or you can use a heal intensive pet and just manage MULTIPLE dots and AoE's, still kinda boring though. I really dislike the way FFXIV locks you into one role and it really limits the possiblities that say WoW has, in the way that a healer can use a DPS Spec.
Two of those are shooters, which I sadly have grown out of, also I have found myself staying clear of zombie survival games after the debacle that was WarZ and the sheer amount of hours I put into DayZ. H1Z1 seems like a pretty decent game, and while I feel they managed to make a fair Airdrop/Lootcrate system; the game is infested by hackers last I hear. Minecraft was totally amazing and I've played it for several years straight when it first came out. Eventually I took a step back and realized how limited the voxel unit sizes were, this was eventually further proven when SoE swooped in with a even more amazing Voxel based system that totally blew minecraft away but was limited by land claiming space. While I loved both, I find more enjoyment and feel less limited just going into Zbrush and Maya and making things instead. Its a great concept for kids to explore and create like legos, without killing their parents when they step on the legos.
ya grow a beard and play skyrim until mmos get their shit together.
people (gamers) are just jaded and cynical now by default. i dont think gamers think about it, but wow is not what it is today because it is just that good of a mmo. NAH if you are tired of all mmos you are tired of wow too.. that being said WOW made it through because it came out when MMOS were still niche. Now that WOW made them (mmos) mainstream pop culture, its going to be a long road to recovery.. meaning its going to have to die almost 100% dead then the next thing for mmos will happen. But I doubt that will be in the next 10 years though.
Side Note: WOW isnt that special.. its basically EQ with a few more features and amazing Marketing. EQ was for people who liked RPG games and wanted to play them with friends, while WOW was for anybody that liked video games in general even a little bit. I think if EQ had that marketing power back then it would be just as big if not bigger (and maybe very different) as wow.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I feel like I want to blame GW1 for making me unable to enjoy GW2. I couldn't really sit down an enjoy any of the classes, I liked engineer but I wanted more emphasis on turrets, I loved necro but I liked GW1 necro a slight bit more. I loved the merc system in GW1 and and even down to the abilities and combinations. Playing Warrior and having all the abilties unlocked that I needed at level 15 gave me no motivation to get to max level. The lack of the trinity caused more grief than accomplish what GW2 wanted to do with it. I won't lie and say I do like some form of gear progression, maybe even sideways progression like in FFXI. Spending all that time making a epic weapon that ultimately does nothing. Pair that with the awful instance system of RvR, where the realm with more players online to fill each INDIVIDUAL instanced zone map would win. No way of gearing or progressing in RvR, along with player culling and the host of other bugs. A lot of this has changed, but a lot of the more important things to me stayed the same.
I agree, but in this case the early bird gets the worm. I don't commend WoW for being a overall good game, I commend it for choosing the right time and place with the right brand influence and marketing. Pair that with its polish and all the things you can do in the game by now, made it the game it was. Vanilla was a pretty solid experience, the game has been toned down quite a bit since then but it's held onto its core principles and is now a Icon amongst its genre.
That's what I did a couple years ago. A self admitted pver player playing darkfall as there is nothing out there that offers freedom in a large dangerous world. Actual risk vs reward imagine that. I do think people should try some games out of their comfort zone once in a while. I still think the genre went way off track some time ago and now we are seeing the results. Here's hoping these indie devs will be able to deliver to some extent.People will need to be patient with these indie devs as they will not have the resources to update and add content at a rapid rate.
I'll not say what game I think is better, but I will comment on the topic of rotation since an outlook was asked for:
In truth, I believe WoW's combat rotation in WoD is child's play when compared to FFXIV's intricacies, especially considering you have no addons to further simplify such. Here's Why: With a Dragoon's fabled 32 button rotation -- but one rotation, mind you -- and with situations demanding a change of flow and knowing exactly when and how to start a fresh rotation without losing DPS (there are combo rotations within rotations whereby the potency is increased... if you quit out too soon, you could easily lose out on 500+ potency overall... For example A Strike + A Strike = 200 potency, A Strike + B Strike = 380 potency combo'd (or 100 each, if done solo), followed by C Strike which equals an addition 400 on top of that... which all would become null and void 100 potency if not followed through). You also have to pay attention to your static composition, the landscape, boss mechanics, etc. to know when to use off GDC cooldowns -- using it at the wrong second can and probably will wipe you and your entire group with some jumps -- as well as positional strikes for maximum output (flank, back, etc.), upkeep of buffs (having to perform a combo to keep a debuff on the enemy and a buff on yourself -- several combos doing this, and knowing how long you can go or what is needed is key before having to reset a rotation or having it reset auto from avoiding mechanics or having to hold off). You're looking at rotations that host dozens of buttons, know how in how to employ them while watching for mechanics, group buffs, what abilities your allies are using, when to flat reset and not get confused due to the sheer amount of buttons you need to memorize the order of no matter where you stop. That's not even getting into single buffs or on-proc attacks, unique class mechanics, the cross class system whereby you can employ the abilities of other classes and add them into your own unique rotation, or the punishment for a single mistake. In addition to avoiding the "fire" and mechanics that are a constant threat and could potentially instantly KO your melee members in a manner most unforgiving.
Not to mention that a single mistake is very punishing (as previous stated), and can be known to wipe a group if there is a DPS check. Ninja in particular -- if a mistake didn't already kill you -- will be locked out of doing a significant amount of damage if a single hand symbol is messed up for 20 seconds. Imagine being without your best abilities for 20 seconds in WoW. For one mistake, or for a second of lag and you not being of the mind to recognize your slow casting. Hand symbols being required to be used in order, kind've like simon says but in a more static way, before the "use" or "Ninjutsu" button flashes. People oft say that combat is "slow", but in reality, by the time you get to this level of play, you keep on wishing to yourself the cooldown was a second longer as you need to have an incredible memory and reaction time in some cases to even keep up with a 2 second cooldown (haste abilities and such). In addition to off the global attacks, of which the Dragoon itself has a half dozen at least, which need to be timed perfectly after an ability to make the most of that two second gap, WHILE paying attention to everything else and noting what portion of a rotation and combo you're in.
Here's an old post regarding the Dragoon's rotation; it is the entirety of the first two forum posts in terms of what to memorize and make note of:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/79042-Dragoons-A-Rotation-Reborn
Note it's age and the fact that I use a rotation that someone else taught me that is supposed to be even more complex, as their claim is. So I don't know the relevance of it today (the one I linked above).
One thing about melee in the game is that they're typically the highest sustained DPS. It's very much a risk reward thing whereby complexity and getting killed in a second is rewarded with the highest DPS.
Also remember this is without addons and macros, as they are useless in combat situations due to them only reacting every whole second (in that, you get an instant reaction and then the system uses every other action one second apart by design, to prevent simplification and forms of botting). Which means you lose out on a good 15-30% of your damage if you use macros as a melee. Not to mention it being dangerous if you need to use an ability right away, but another one was used and you're locked out. This is especially true with stun mechanics with the paladin.
It's all as hectic as it sounds, whereas I could -- perhaps due to my 10+ years of playing WoW and no doubt to them cutting abilities in WoD -- just lay back in my chair and barely even think performing the "hardest" rotation in WoW at present. Avoid this, know that. Addons popping up for this and that. Raid leaders knowing my class because they're so logistically easy to understand whereas most cannot even fathom what I have on FFXIV, especially due to the cross class system. Very little babysitting in that regard.
This thread is about people being tired of the same ol' stuff and the need for something truly different and it's devolved into talk about rotations.
Once upon a time....
This ^^ Exactly. I feel the same way. I loved the run from Qeynos to Freeport at lvl 6.... and the fear for the baddies of the world.
Looking forward to Pantheon, for sure!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Truly different stuff exists. Want it? Go play it.
Same-but-different stuff is impossible. Want it? Tough, your expectations are impossible.
If you want something different but it must be the same (ie it must be an MMORPG) then that's same-but-different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Whatever you say. I've grown too tired of arguing your bullshjt take on MMOs over the years.
Once upon a time....
I am playing Project 1999, and it is a lot of fun, more than any of the current crop, so you couldn't be more wrong. And, I am looking forward to Pantheon because they do seem to understand their target audience, and it's me.
Not really, some people are looking to recapture designs that were not pursued further because they were not popular.
Back in the early days, there were probably half a dozen or so roads that could have been pursued, but eventually due to popularity only one design path won out.
So, yes, people want something that is the same as something before, but different than what is currently being offered.
Won't be happening, but it could.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've already stated it this several times but some never learn :P.
Well well, you seem to understand the true enjoyment of having your own opinion. And despite how different it may be from mine I am very glad you came here to share it with us. Your first logic I can agree with, but I cannot cast magic and slay dragons in RL. Games back then didn't need amazing graphics and gameplay to ensnare our time, and immerse us in its story. We as as "most" adults are afflicted in the way that our imagination weakens and we seek reference to create this fantasy within ourselves :P. Second logic: This isn't a target audience demographic video, it merely states what games back then focused on and compares it to what has come after it in the 10 years that followed. He is merely dissecting what HE feels in his "opinion" MMO's are compromised of and throws some of his personal experiences in between. It is not something you need to agree or let everyone else know you disagree on per se, but if you feel so inclined then feel free. Third, i cant say I disagree with you there at all, Call of duty? Madden? NBA? NHL? Gran Turismo? Need for Speed? Assassins Creed? All of these and more do really feel like repackaged games to me and its a shame that MMO's as my favorite genre are taking a page from it.
This is all semantics. What game producers should be looking at is the present situation and why it's failing. And what to do about it going forwards.
They need to weed out the problems to start to figure out where they can go. But instead they just keep making the same game play in a different dress.
Once upon a time....
WoW was first MMO I played (was there any before it?) that let you swim...UNDERWATER! As soon as I saw that on my troll going to Sen'Jin I was sold.
Any MMO that as lame water mechanics where you can't swim or go underwater I pretty much move on or avoid.
But that obviously is not everything.
I still play WoW for many reasons. The world is amazing. The gameplay is TONS of fun...I can play for 30 minutes and actually finish a dungeon or accomplish whatever I planned to do. Or I can play for hours and still not run out of things to do.
That brings up...WoW has SO many things to do. Its not just raid or die. Or PvP and die. You got achievements, pets, collectibles, toys...so much stuff. Even so many mounts to get. Crafting while not sophisticated is TONS of fun...and that brings me to...
Crafting. No MMO has such a fun crafting system (that I personally played). As a tailor I can make a magic carpet, or engineer I can do bombs or build a rocket or all kinds of stuff. Or alchemy I can transform into a dragon, or all kinds of different potion effects. Which again brings me...
WoW just has TONS of fun stuff. The whole game is chock full of FUN things to do. Most MMOs...the crafting is so boring. Like vanguard, that game was great...but the crafting was the most boring crafting I've ever done in an MMO. No potions, nothing fun...I hate making just armor or stuff to wear. I want to actually craft fun stuff. Vanguard had nothing fun to do like WoW did. Even going from quest to quest was really boring...all the quests were rather...created with no enthusiasam to it.
In WoW...the PvP is tons of fun. You don't lose items, no...but its just pure fun.
I think a lot of MMOs miss that.
Most MMOs either focus 100% PvP and throw in PvE just because (or avoid it all together). Or focus 100% on PvE and PvP is lackluster.
WoW has fun PvE AND PvP
WoW isn't just raid or die
WoW isn't just PvP or die
WoW is fun for casual, or hardcore
WoW lets you swim underwater (even modern MMOs still don't have that...like I tried FFXIV, The Secret World and there was another pretty recent MMO with high end graphics, and none of them didn't even have that. WTF?)
WoW has an AMAZING world. And it isn't just because its warcraft, cause to be honest I never was big into warcraft before WoW...I never even read anything about warcraft, it never interested me.
WoW has TONS of side-content...so much content. I know a lot avoid old content and just do endgame raiding, but I still go back to collect pets/mounts and other items from old content and I'm still not even NEARLY close to finishing WoW at all
Now I know a new MMO released probably can't match the same amount of content...but no new MMO I've tried has such a fun game, with an amazing world and a lot of fun things to craft and do.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
^^^ This, I am currently enjoying my time in FFXI to which I resubbed a week after they announced the final 3 addons to the game in which i goes on life support after. Do I care? No I do not, finally after almost a decade both of my favorite classes got reworks and buffs that are fare more than I could ever ask for. Whats more ironic is that FFXI started making events that utilize flex raiding mechanics (you can do things with as little as 3 people and rewards scale based on increase in members, of course by increasing a scaling difficulty slider if you manage to find more members) before FFXIV >.>. So me and my two RL friends are making a our mythic weapons and I'm pleased as punch, as well as taking my roommate in to the fold and leveling jobs with him old school.
Which goes without saying, WoW is great because It created its own identity. Its great that you find enjoyment in the last MMO of the original decade, before everything took a nosedive. As a added perk wow has had 10 years to refine its systems/classes/content/graphics/gamplay, the list goes on and on, all while those poor fools kept trying to replicate its success. The game is truly a gem to those who can enjoy the game, sometimes I almost feel jealous :P.