Originally posted by Donpoohbear alo of people seem to have a chip on their shoulder for the knowledge they have gained. and feel like you should have scoured the wikis and online guides rather than just asking .
This.
People hoard knowledge in MMOs, where once upon a time they used to eagerly give it away.
"I know something you don't, neener."
Insecurity.
If this really is a trend then it's a sad one, but I'm not convinced. People are people. This is not to negate the importance of a changing market or technological landscape.
In my game of choice, I never mind answering questions. It leaves a feeling of synergistic goodwill to have imparted a bit of knowledge. The danger is in becoming a know-it-all; my watchword is that if there is any feeling of hesitation or resentment, it's better not to say anything. The really easy questions get answered before I can even get to them most times. Sometimes someone answers a question by presenting an opinion as fact; I try not to let this get to me. Silence is best in this case.
A question well answered is often judged by the newb's next response: "I #&^$ love this game!"
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
1999: internet was new. less that 300 million people worldwide had it. The concept of playing a video game with someone over the internet was new and exciting. no online game guides. no google. no youtube. no spoilers.
2015: internet is everywhere. over 3 billion people have it now. if a video game does not have an online aspect, it is considered out of the norm. all info about every game from the past, present and future is laid out in full detail. years before an mmo even launches, we can already know just about everything about it down to the way a character's foot rests at an angle.
the internet just isnt very special anymore. so the novelty has worn off. you have to find new ways to enjoy mmos other than just the thrill of talking to someone over an internet connection.
You can still have great experiences and meet cool folks. Just dont be surprised that the ice breaker is no longer, "isnt this amazing? im playing with someone from across the country right now!"
Could also have something to do with the fact that massively multiplayer games actually required multiple players to accomplish most content, and pissing people off in a smaller single server (as opposed to cross server) community meant making a bad name for yourself, and eventually being blacklisted and being forced to reroll anonymously.
Asheron's Call totally debunks your argument.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
The more popular the game is the more of every kind of gamer you have - good and bad apples
Bad apple/attention seeking gamers are more vocal so that's why newer games seem worse - the thing is there's a lot of great gamers online too, but they are not as vocal and tend to stick to guild chat or keep to themselves.
Bottom line - it's not really all that much worse - there were absolute arseholes who played EQ1 back in march of 1999 when it first launced too - but because the playerbase was so much smaller in comparison - it didn't seem as bad.
Don't let the minority of vocal arsehats ruin online games for you - they are loud BUT they are a still a minority.
Instead of complaining how "communities suck" - go and seek out good active guilds and you'll never have this complaint again.
A handful of attention seeking miscreants in global chat does NOT make up an entire community
Agreed.
Personally I don't think developers of games put much work into community building aspects anymore. Their primary goal, at least in most AAA titles appears to be: we want as many of you as possible to play our game.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
It is much easier to say, we will give you guilds, we will give you chat, we will give you optional group content. The rest is up to you.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
People would say that they miss the challenge of old MMO's. I think this is the challenge of todays MMO. Being a part of and promoting good community in the games you play.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I blame it all on social media PvP and the younger generation personally, because the younger generation lack the social communications skills of my middle age. There are many who are unwilling or unable to find work so just live at home and have massive attitudes. I'm not saying all young people are like that but there are many internet gamer's with too much time on their hands and lack discipline. As someone else pointed out it's the console era which has had a lot to do with what has happened to gaming online. Also the PvP side of games has contributed to this too as in the early times of EQI there was not much call for PvP unlike today so that brings it's own challenges of self preservation and that crosses over into other games too so all in all no one thing has caused this it's a combination and in my opinion it will only get worse as no one is accountable in games any more.
This is not just happening in gaming it's happening in all our societies just look at the amount of conflicts going on in many countries, faction have no respect for countries laws they create their own and if you don't fit wont betide you!
I blame it all on social media PvP and the younger generation personally, because the younger generation lack the social communications skills of my middle age. There are many who are unwilling or unable to find work so just live at home and have massive attitudes.
wait .. we are talking about games here .. what does that have to do with work and real life skills? It is not like people need to apply real world skills to games, if they don't want to.
And who are you to blame anyone? No one is obligated to provide entertainment to you. If you don't like them, play solo.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
Or...
Those asshats no longer get groups, and they quit the game...
No, I don't think it works quite like that.
Asshats can have friends too. And everyone has different ideas on who the asshats are. Or they are only playing the game for the opportunity to be an asshat, and could care less if they get their group or not. Or they pretend not to be an asshat and then when they get what they want, go back to being an asshat....yada yada yada....
Like everyone else that thinks a single generic solution will solve all problems, it is a bit more complicated than that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
Or...
Those asshats no longer get groups, and they quit the game...
No, I don't think it works quite like that.
Asshats can have friends too. And everyone has different ideas on who the asshats are. Or they are only playing the game for the opportunity to be an asshat, and could care less if they get their group or not. Or they pretend not to be an asshat and then when they get what they want, go back to being an asshat....yada yada yada....
Like everyone else that thinks a single generic solution will solve all problems, it is a bit more complicated than that.
This. Asshats are legion, because like you observed, everyone has a group of people they don't like, and label them as so.
Look at EVE, Goonswarm is considered legendary asshats, yet they number in the thousands and in fact are allies with the current Alliance that I'm flying with. (also numbering in the thousands.).
So to many in EVE, I'm a member of a coalition of asshats, making me one too I suppose.
I think what I really like about EVE is the fact I can choose to group up in a variety of activities, yet solo most times, especially when it comes to PVE activities. Yet I interact with my corp/alliance mates regularly through voice and text coms, and assist them in activities when I am able.
Forcing people to group isn't the answer, never was really, but I would like a bit more downtime between fights, (and in game in general) but am in a clear minority in this regard. Fortunately for me EVE has both in abundance so at least I have one game I can enjoy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1999: internet was new. less that 300 million people worldwide had it. The concept of playing a video game with someone over the internet was new and exciting. no online game guides. no google. no youtube. no spoilers.
2015: internet is everywhere. over 3 billion people have it now. if a video game does not have an online aspect, it is considered out of the norm. all info about every game from the past, present and future is laid out in full detail. years before an mmo even launches, we can already know just about everything about it down to the way a character's foot rests at an angle.
the internet just isnt very special anymore. so the novelty has worn off. you have to find new ways to enjoy mmos other than just the thrill of talking to someone over an internet connection.
You can still have great experiences and meet cool folks. Just dont be surprised that the ice breaker is no longer, "isnt this amazing? im playing with someone from across the country right now!"
Could also have something to do with the fact that massively multiplayer games actually required multiple players to accomplish most content, and pissing people off in a smaller single server (as opposed to cross server) community meant making a bad name for yourself, and eventually being blacklisted and being forced to reroll anonymously.
Dullahan, I think many of us have made some pretty valid points regard MMO community.
Foomerang nailed it with another one that has been talked about and mentioned before on these forums. The MMO Market is saturated and has become increasingly popular.
Communities don't just start with the Developer, it start with the players themselves.
Originally posted by Dullahan No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering.
At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.
Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
Forcing people to group isn't the answer, never was really, but I would like a bit more downtime between fights, (and in game in general) but am in a clear minority in this regard. Fortunately for me EVE has both in abundance so at least I have one game I can enjoy.
You already have the option of asking everyone to stop for 5 min and chat.
There is no point forcing others to accede to your preference though. If others don't want down-time, i do not see why you should be able to force it on them.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
The more popular the game is the more of every kind of gamer you have - good and bad apples
Bad apple/attention seeking gamers are more vocal so that's why newer games seem worse - the thing is there's a lot of great gamers online too, but they are not as vocal and tend to stick to guild chat or keep to themselves.
Bottom line - it's not really all that much worse - there were absolute arseholes who played EQ1 back in march of 1999 when it first launced too - but because the playerbase was so much smaller in comparison - it didn't seem as bad.
Don't let the minority of vocal arsehats ruin online games for you - they are loud BUT they are a still a minority.
Instead of complaining how "communities suck" - go and seek out good active guilds and you'll never have this complaint again.
A handful of attention seeking miscreants in global chat does NOT make up an entire community
Agreed.
Personally I don't think developers of games put much work into community building aspects anymore. Their primary goal, at least in most AAA titles appears to be: we want as many of you as possible to play our game.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
It is much easier to say, we will give you guilds, we will give you chat, we will give you optional group content. The rest is up to you.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
People would say that they miss the challenge of old MMO's. I think this is the challenge of todays MMO. Being a part of and promoting good community in the games you play.
The rest is up to you!!!
You and I are given the same tools to interact in newer and older games!
Oh look EQ1 Chat Window! EQ pretty much forced you to group!
Oh look Wildstar Chat Window! Wildstar gives you optional group content!
ASSHATS are in our everyday environment!
It can be your next door neighbor!
It can be the the bitchy Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
It can be the bitchy customer being an ASSHAT to the Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
Originally posted by Dullahan No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering.
At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.
Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by StoneRosesNot at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
That is true. And so is the opposite. Forced grouping may in fact force you to meet someone genuinely nice. But you will never meet a nice person in solo play.
Forced grouping you meet everyone, the good and the bad. Optional grouping, you don't meet everyone, and you meet them less often, but typically the ones you meet are voluntarily engaging with other players.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
The more popular the game is the more of every kind of gamer you have - good and bad apples
Bad apple/attention seeking gamers are more vocal so that's why newer games seem worse - the thing is there's a lot of great gamers online too, but they are not as vocal and tend to stick to guild chat or keep to themselves.
Bottom line - it's not really all that much worse - there were absolute arseholes who played EQ1 back in march of 1999 when it first launced too - but because the playerbase was so much smaller in comparison - it didn't seem as bad.
Don't let the minority of vocal arsehats ruin online games for you - they are loud BUT they are a still a minority.
Instead of complaining how "communities suck" - go and seek out good active guilds and you'll never have this complaint again.
A handful of attention seeking miscreants in global chat does NOT make up an entire community
Agreed.
Personally I don't think developers of games put much work into community building aspects anymore. Their primary goal, at least in most AAA titles appears to be: we want as many of you as possible to play our game.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
It is much easier to say, we will give you guilds, we will give you chat, we will give you optional group content. The rest is up to you.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
People would say that they miss the challenge of old MMO's. I think this is the challenge of todays MMO. Being a part of and promoting good community in the games you play.
The rest is up to you!!!
You and I are given the same tools to interact in newer and older games!
Oh look EQ1 Chat Window! EQ pretty much forced you to group!
Oh look Wildstar Chat Window! Wildstar gives you optional group content!
ASSHATS are in our everyday environment!
It can be your next door neighbor!
It can be the the bitchy Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
It can be the bitchy customer being an ASSHAT to the Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
First, that is a chat window from EQ2, not 1. Second, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. Must be missing something.
On topic: I read so many people saying BS like, "the tools are there for you to use" or, "there is still group content", "you can sit and chat for 5 minutes, but there's no reason to force..."
You guys are talking about completely different games. Different game that have brought in DIFFERENT PEOPLE. YES these people existed, but we didn't see them because these people did not play the games we like because THEY DIDN'T LIKE THEM.
The same reason you don't see someone like me sitting on WoW or ESO or Tera or any other SOLOABLE complaining in chat that the game is shit is because I don't like those games and therefore I don't waste my time.
So why is the community garbage these days? Because the games are catered to a larger player base, more players = more douchebags.
Gameplay doesn't FORCE people to act a certain way, it weeds them out. Want more proof that gameplay changes the player bases attitude?? Play a PVE server and a PVP server. Completely different attitude. Play themepark PVP vs unrestricted PVP. Completely different attitudes. A majority of current MMOs are carbon copies of each other in regards to gameplay, the same gameplay the brings out the douchebags. That is why the communities are trash.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
Yes, yes you will.
So you never been:
Ganked
Griefed
Kill Stealing
Node Stealing
Do I need to go on?
I am sure many can add to the list!
You can be trying to enjoy your solo and force to turn your Chat Window off due to some jerk spamming!
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
That is true. And so is the opposite. Forced grouping may in fact force you to meet someone genuinely nice. But you will never meet a nice person in solo play.
Forced grouping you meet everyone, the good and the bad. Optional grouping, you don't meet everyone, and you meet them less often, but typically the ones you meet are voluntarily engaging with other players.
Hence, optional grouping give you a higher chance to meet nice people than forced grouping because those who are not nice, or don't want to deal with others (more likely to be annoyed, and less friendly) will not show up for grouping at all.
BTW, while you are meeting a smaller population in optional grouping, we are still talking about large numbers here for the popular games, and it makes no difference (at least to me) if i have a 10M population to meet, or 1M because I am not going to deal with all of them anyway.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
Yes, yes you will.
So you never been:
Ganked
Griefed
Kill Stealing
Node Stealing
Do I need to go on?
I am sure many can add to the list!
You can be trying to enjoy your solo and force to turn your Chat Window off due to some jerk spamming!
hmm .. how is it even be POSSIBLE for anyone to ganked or grief me when I am in an instanced with no others around?
I don't play games where any of those things are possible ... so no .. those things do not happen to me.
(And yes, it happened before like in poorly (subjective .. to me) designed games like EQ .. but modern games I play do not have that problem)
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
The more popular the game is the more of every kind of gamer you have - good and bad apples
Bad apple/attention seeking gamers are more vocal so that's why newer games seem worse - the thing is there's a lot of great gamers online too, but they are not as vocal and tend to stick to guild chat or keep to themselves.
Bottom line - it's not really all that much worse - there were absolute arseholes who played EQ1 back in march of 1999 when it first launced too - but because the playerbase was so much smaller in comparison - it didn't seem as bad.
Don't let the minority of vocal arsehats ruin online games for you - they are loud BUT they are a still a minority.
Instead of complaining how "communities suck" - go and seek out good active guilds and you'll never have this complaint again.
A handful of attention seeking miscreants in global chat does NOT make up an entire community
Agreed.
Personally I don't think developers of games put much work into community building aspects anymore. Their primary goal, at least in most AAA titles appears to be: we want as many of you as possible to play our game.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
It is much easier to say, we will give you guilds, we will give you chat, we will give you optional group content. The rest is up to you.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
People would say that they miss the challenge of old MMO's. I think this is the challenge of todays MMO. Being a part of and promoting good community in the games you play.
The rest is up to you!!!
You and I are given the same tools to interact in newer and older games!
Oh look EQ1 Chat Window! EQ pretty much forced you to group!
Oh look Wildstar Chat Window! Wildstar gives you optional group content!
ASSHATS are in our everyday environment!
It can be your next door neighbor!
It can be the the bitchy Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
It can be the bitchy customer being an ASSHAT to the Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
First, that is a chat window from EQ2, not 1. Second, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. Must be missing something.
On topic: I read so many people saying BS like, "the tools are there for you to use" or, "there is still group content", "you can sit and chat for 5 minutes, but there's no reason to force..."
You guys are talking about completely different games. Different game that have brought in DIFFERENT PEOPLE. YES these people existed, but we didn't see them because these people did not play the games we like because THEY DIDN'T LIKE THEM.
The same reason you don't see someone like me sitting on WoW or ESO or Tera or any other SOLOABLE complaining in chat that the game is shit is because I don't like those games and therefore I don't waste my time.
So why is the community garbage these days? Because the games are catered to a larger player base, more players = more douchebags.
Gameplay doesn't FORCE people to act a certain way, it weeds them out. Want more proof that gameplay changes the player bases attitude?? Play a PVE server and a PVP server. Completely different attitude. Play themepark PVP vs unrestricted PVP. Completely different attitudes. A majority of current MMOs are carbon copies of each other in regards to gameplay, the same gameplay the brings out the douchebags. That is why the communities are trash.
No, no...we are in fact in the same page! If you look at the other posters like Foomerang who clearly points this out. Which I agree.
You make the decision for your own attitude regardless of what environment you play in as you listed.
Players fail to taking ownership, responsibility, or accountability.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Forcing people to group isn't the answer, never was really, but I would like a bit more downtime between fights, (and in game in general) but am in a clear minority in this regard. Fortunately for me EVE has both in abundance so at least I have one game I can enjoy.
You already have the option of asking everyone to stop for 5 min and chat.
There is no point forcing others to accede to your preference though. If others don't want down-time, i do not see why you should be able to force it on them.
Well, unfortunately due to the level disparity, you really can't get together a like minded group together very easily at the lower levels, so this normally only happens when I catch up to my guild for end game.
You are correct, I can't force others to accede to my preferences, which is why I don't play games that the developers don't include downtime in their design, which is why I'm only playing EVE these days.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The player personality type composition is the same. The expectations of players are different. That is set by game design changes based on convenience first and homogeneous quest hub gaming. Fast solo leveling on rails + massive amounts of instances/phasing + finders and queues = game play experience best played alone. Bring back group combat + slow leveling or interdependenCy you will have players playing with each other.
Originally posted by Dullahan No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering.
At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.
Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
Foomerang 2 vs Dullahan 0
Lol, in make believe land.
Game mechanics do make a difference in attitudes and if you don't understand that, its probably because you started online gaming in the last decade or perhaps you've never had a job working with other people, as a professional, so you can't relate to my analogy. An analogy which he completely ignored and moved to "solo play doesn't create jerks" an irrelevant statement and a misrepresentation of what I actually said, the same way he moved away from debating the point earlier where, he was forced to equate some sort of implied or hidden greed in older games, and compare it to active aggression and trolling that goes on so commonly in games today.
The lack of Accountability creates jerks in the anonymous land of the internets. That is a fact beyond debate. When interaction is required to progress in a video game, it curbs those tendencies, the same way it does when people are trying to progress in the real world.
I think things were different when many of us first started playing MMOs and fell in love with them. Back when UO, EQ and SWG first came out, the internet was about finding information and not the "place where you can be nameless and spew all the hate you wanted". MMO's were relatively new and exciting and the market was not saturated like it is today. All MMO's had big worlds to explore, crafting and housing and played by the same rules, $12 to $15 a month for everything. We didnt have the greedy money-grabbers like:
Jason Appleton - No experience and yet walked away from his project with over $50,000
Sergey Titov - Who came up with "Foundation Release" to justify paying to be a beta tester in a poor quality game (War-Z)
Ryan Dancey - Who came up with "Early Enrollment" to justify charging a sub fee to beta test Pathfinder Online
We didnt have extremely greedy games like Archeage which charges a sub fee AND then restricts you like a F2P player. The reason the community feels so angry is due to the developers. If developers stopped focusing on greed and focused on creating a great game, the money would come in. But todays internet is filled with the get rich quick guys who dont give a crap about gaming. As developers push us into more and more greedy business models, the community will continue to fight back and sound off. Add that to the fact todays youngest gamers dont give a crap what they say online and you have the current issue with game communities today.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Comments
If this really is a trend then it's a sad one, but I'm not convinced. People are people. This is not to negate the importance of a changing market or technological landscape.
In my game of choice, I never mind answering questions. It leaves a feeling of synergistic goodwill to have imparted a bit of knowledge. The danger is in becoming a know-it-all; my watchword is that if there is any feeling of hesitation or resentment, it's better not to say anything. The really easy questions get answered before I can even get to them most times. Sometimes someone answers a question by presenting an opinion as fact; I try not to let this get to me. Silence is best in this case.
A question well answered is often judged by the newb's next response: "I #&^$ love this game!"
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Asheron's Call totally debunks your argument.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Agreed.
Personally I don't think developers of games put much work into community building aspects anymore. Their primary goal, at least in most AAA titles appears to be: we want as many of you as possible to play our game.
If people are forced to play with other people, to progress through the game, the chances are good at some point that they will have an asshat experience. More than a few of these and they will likely quit the game in either frustration or disgust. Therefore for a developer, IMO, it does not make much sense to throw random players together in order to complete the game.
It is much easier to say, we will give you guilds, we will give you chat, we will give you optional group content. The rest is up to you.
Like DMKano says, If you want socialization in games, then find it. Asshats are only a problem in games when you must interact with them, as in forced content. The rest of the time, you can ignore them and move on with enjoying the game and finding like minded players to yourself that are fun and entertaining to play with.
People would say that they miss the challenge of old MMO's. I think this is the challenge of todays MMO. Being a part of and promoting good community in the games you play.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I blame it all on social media PvP and the younger generation personally, because the younger generation lack the social communications skills of my middle age. There are many who are unwilling or unable to find work so just live at home and have massive attitudes. I'm not saying all young people are like that but there are many internet gamer's with too much time on their hands and lack discipline. As someone else pointed out it's the console era which has had a lot to do with what has happened to gaming online. Also the PvP side of games has contributed to this too as in the early times of EQI there was not much call for PvP unlike today so that brings it's own challenges of self preservation and that crosses over into other games too so all in all no one thing has caused this it's a combination and in my opinion it will only get worse as no one is accountable in games any more.
This is not just happening in gaming it's happening in all our societies just look at the amount of conflicts going on in many countries, faction have no respect for countries laws they create their own and if you don't fit wont betide you!
Asbo
wait .. we are talking about games here .. what does that have to do with work and real life skills? It is not like people need to apply real world skills to games, if they don't want to.
And who are you to blame anyone? No one is obligated to provide entertainment to you. If you don't like them, play solo.
No, I don't think it works quite like that.
Asshats can have friends too. And everyone has different ideas on who the asshats are. Or they are only playing the game for the opportunity to be an asshat, and could care less if they get their group or not. Or they pretend not to be an asshat and then when they get what they want, go back to being an asshat....yada yada yada....
Like everyone else that thinks a single generic solution will solve all problems, it is a bit more complicated than that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
This. Asshats are legion, because like you observed, everyone has a group of people they don't like, and label them as so.
Look at EVE, Goonswarm is considered legendary asshats, yet they number in the thousands and in fact are allies with the current Alliance that I'm flying with. (also numbering in the thousands.).
So to many in EVE, I'm a member of a coalition of asshats, making me one too I suppose.
I think what I really like about EVE is the fact I can choose to group up in a variety of activities, yet solo most times, especially when it comes to PVE activities. Yet I interact with my corp/alliance mates regularly through voice and text coms, and assist them in activities when I am able.
Forcing people to group isn't the answer, never was really, but I would like a bit more downtime between fights, (and in game in general) but am in a clear minority in this regard. Fortunately for me EVE has both in abundance so at least I have one game I can enjoy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dullahan, I think many of us have made some pretty valid points regard MMO community.
Foomerang nailed it with another one that has been talked about and mentioned before on these forums. The MMO Market is saturated and has become increasingly popular.
Communities don't just start with the Developer, it start with the players themselves.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
You already have the option of asking everyone to stop for 5 min and chat.
There is no point forcing others to accede to your preference though. If others don't want down-time, i do not see why you should be able to force it on them.
The rest is up to you!!!
You and I are given the same tools to interact in newer and older games!
Oh look EQ1 Chat Window! EQ pretty much forced you to group!
Oh look Wildstar Chat Window! Wildstar gives you optional group content!
ASSHATS are in our everyday environment!
It can be your next door neighbor!
It can be the the bitchy Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
It can be the bitchy customer being an ASSHAT to the Barista at the coffee shop you go to.
*****I FIXED THE EQ CHAT WINDOW*****
Foomerang 2 vs Dullahan 0
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
There is a difference though ...
forced grouping put people together no matter what .. and a player is more likely to meet a jerk.
solo play ... well .. i will *never* meet a jerk in solo-play, will i?
That is true. And so is the opposite. Forced grouping may in fact force you to meet someone genuinely nice. But you will never meet a nice person in solo play.
Forced grouping you meet everyone, the good and the bad. Optional grouping, you don't meet everyone, and you meet them less often, but typically the ones you meet are voluntarily engaging with other players.
First, that is a chat window from EQ2, not 1. Second, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. Must be missing something.
On topic: I read so many people saying BS like, "the tools are there for you to use" or, "there is still group content", "you can sit and chat for 5 minutes, but there's no reason to force..."
You guys are talking about completely different games. Different game that have brought in DIFFERENT PEOPLE. YES these people existed, but we didn't see them because these people did not play the games we like because THEY DIDN'T LIKE THEM.
The same reason you don't see someone like me sitting on WoW or ESO or Tera or any other SOLOABLE complaining in chat that the game is shit is because I don't like those games and therefore I don't waste my time.
So why is the community garbage these days? Because the games are catered to a larger player base, more players = more douchebags.
Gameplay doesn't FORCE people to act a certain way, it weeds them out. Want more proof that gameplay changes the player bases attitude?? Play a PVE server and a PVP server. Completely different attitude. Play themepark PVP vs unrestricted PVP. Completely different attitudes. A majority of current MMOs are carbon copies of each other in regards to gameplay, the same gameplay the brings out the douchebags. That is why the communities are trash.
Yes, yes you will.
So you never been:
Do I need to go on?
I am sure many can add to the list!
You can be trying to enjoy your solo and force to turn your Chat Window off due to some jerk spamming!
Hence, optional grouping give you a higher chance to meet nice people than forced grouping because those who are not nice, or don't want to deal with others (more likely to be annoyed, and less friendly) will not show up for grouping at all.
BTW, while you are meeting a smaller population in optional grouping, we are still talking about large numbers here for the popular games, and it makes no difference (at least to me) if i have a 10M population to meet, or 1M because I am not going to deal with all of them anyway.
hmm .. how is it even be POSSIBLE for anyone to ganked or grief me when I am in an instanced with no others around?
I don't play games where any of those things are possible ... so no .. those things do not happen to me.
(And yes, it happened before like in poorly (subjective .. to me) designed games like EQ .. but modern games I play do not have that problem)
No, no...we are in fact in the same page! If you look at the other posters like Foomerang who clearly points this out. Which I agree.
You make the decision for your own attitude regardless of what environment you play in as you listed.
Players fail to taking ownership, responsibility, or accountability.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Well, unfortunately due to the level disparity, you really can't get together a like minded group together very easily at the lower levels, so this normally only happens when I catch up to my guild for end game.
You are correct, I can't force others to accede to my preferences, which is why I don't play games that the developers don't include downtime in their design, which is why I'm only playing EVE these days.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol, in make believe land.
Game mechanics do make a difference in attitudes and if you don't understand that, its probably because you started online gaming in the last decade or perhaps you've never had a job working with other people, as a professional, so you can't relate to my analogy. An analogy which he completely ignored and moved to "solo play doesn't create jerks" an irrelevant statement and a misrepresentation of what I actually said, the same way he moved away from debating the point earlier where, he was forced to equate some sort of implied or hidden greed in older games, and compare it to active aggression and trolling that goes on so commonly in games today.
The lack of Accountability creates jerks in the anonymous land of the internets. That is a fact beyond debate. When interaction is required to progress in a video game, it curbs those tendencies, the same way it does when people are trying to progress in the real world.
Nostalgia fallacy 0. Logic 2
I think things were different when many of us first started playing MMOs and fell in love with them. Back when UO, EQ and SWG first came out, the internet was about finding information and not the "place where you can be nameless and spew all the hate you wanted". MMO's were relatively new and exciting and the market was not saturated like it is today. All MMO's had big worlds to explore, crafting and housing and played by the same rules, $12 to $15 a month for everything. We didnt have the greedy money-grabbers like:
Jason Appleton - No experience and yet walked away from his project with over $50,000
Sergey Titov - Who came up with "Foundation Release" to justify paying to be a beta tester in a poor quality game (War-Z)
Ryan Dancey - Who came up with "Early Enrollment" to justify charging a sub fee to beta test Pathfinder Online
We didnt have extremely greedy games like Archeage which charges a sub fee AND then restricts you like a F2P player. The reason the community feels so angry is due to the developers. If developers stopped focusing on greed and focused on creating a great game, the money would come in. But todays internet is filled with the get rich quick guys who dont give a crap about gaming. As developers push us into more and more greedy business models, the community will continue to fight back and sound off. Add that to the fact todays youngest gamers dont give a crap what they say online and you have the current issue with game communities today.