Originally posted by Dullahan Originally posted by StoneRosesOriginally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by Dullahan No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering. At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic. Foomerang 2 vs Dullahan 0 Lol, in make believe land.
Game mechanics do make a difference in attitudes and if you don't understand that, its probably because you started online gaming in the last decade or perhaps you've never had a job working with other people, as a professional, so you can't relate to my analogy. An analogy which he completely ignored and moved to "solo play doesn't create jerks" an irrelevant statement and a misrepresentation of what I actually said, the same way he moved away from debating the point earlier where, he was forced to equate some sort of implied or hidden greed in older games, and compare it to active aggression and trolling that goes on so commonly in games today.
The lack of Accountability creates jerks in the anonymous land of the internets. That is a fact beyond debate. When interaction is required to progress in a video game, it curbs those tendencies, the same way it does when people are trying to progress in the real world.
Nostalgia fallacy 0. Logic 2
I used to carry a quote which read, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I think that fits well within this discussion. A game mechanic may change a persons behavior, but not their will. Your perception of another persons behavior may appear to be a genuine well to change, but that is nothing more than assumption. Peoples moods change more than the rules in these games anyway. So who's to say? But if your favorite album suddenly became outlawed, punishable by death, you'd get rid of it. But I bet you'd still love that album.
Originally posted by Dullahan No, I'm not. You were reaching just to connect hidden greed or passive aggression to the outright disrespect found in modern games with no accountability. You knew it wouldn't fly so you fell back on nostalgia like we are somehow misremembering. At my job, I don't always like everyone, and some people may not like me, but I nod when I pass them in the hall and when I work together with them we still get shit done. There is a level of respect, because its important if we want to keep our jobs. Often, upon working together, people get to know each other better and end up becoming friends. It was the same scenario in older games where players needed each other. That doesn't exist today.Citing a few different forms of group gameplay means nothing compared to games where all forms of progression require grouping. It also means nothing when the press of a single button joins you to a new group, generally with people you've never played with before and will never play with again.
Not at all. My overall point is that forced grouping doesn't create good socialization any more than it creates bad socialization. And solo play doesn't create jerks any more than it creates friendships. A person who wants to connect with others in a meaningful way will do so no matter what the vehicle. An asshole will be an asshole whether they are forced to be nice or have full anonymity reign. Maybe your perception of those people differ based on the circumstance, but they are not more or less genuine based on a game mechanic.
Foomerang 2 vs Dullahan 0
Lol, in make believe land.
Game mechanics do make a difference in attitudes and if you don't understand that, its probably because you started online gaming in the last decade or perhaps you've never had a job working with other people, as a professional, so you can't relate to my analogy. An analogy which he completely ignored and moved to "solo play doesn't create jerks" an irrelevant statement and a misrepresentation of what I actually said, the same way he moved away from debating the point earlier where, he was forced to equate some sort of implied or hidden greed in older games, and compare it to active aggression and trolling that goes on so commonly in games today.
The lack of Accountability creates jerks in the anonymous land of the internets. That is a fact beyond debate. When interaction is required to progress in a video game, it curbs those tendencies, the same way it does when people are trying to progress in the real world.
Nostalgia fallacy 0. Logic 2
I used to carry a quote which read, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I think that fits well within this discussion. A game mechanic may change a persons behavior, but not their will. Your perception of another persons behavior may appear to be a genuine well to change, but that is nothing more than assumption. Peoples moods change more than the rules in these games anyway. So who's to say? But if your favorite album suddenly became outlawed, punishable by death, you'd get rid of it. But I bet you'd still love that album.
Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
A quote from one of the smartest MMO designers in the business.
To anyone that believes game mechanics don't influence the way players act, you're out of touch with reality.
"A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)" RAPH KOSTER, of UO and SWG fame, the latter of which is considered the most social and community driven MMO to date.
A quote from one of the smartest MMO designers in the business.
To anyone that believes game mechanics don't influence the way players act, you're out of touch with reality.
"A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)" RAPH KOSTER, of UO and SWG fame, the latter of which is considered the most social and community driven MMO to date.
Those are the same folks outside of MMOs!
You know exactly who I am talking about!
The folks who need to be praised at work! Need to be acknowledge that they are doing a great job! A medal or a reward for their great work! They spend all day complaining about their work and are completely unhappy.
Originally posted by Dullahan Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
All those guys that you used to be isolated from by playing MMOs, started playing MMOs themselves (thank WoW for that). The population of this genre didn't come from a bunch of babies born overnight, it came from other genres being convinced (via WoW), that MMOs were now 'cool', and that not only nerds in their mother's basement were playing them.
This, and the fact that each generation seems to get less... hmm... evolved than the last one. (At least here in the USA.)
PS: The movie "idiocracy" is a movie today, but a documentary in 50 years.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
Originally posted by Dullahan Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
The dictionary seems to think I am. Stop trying to connect morality with accountability. Even "bad guys" can do those things, and if you really believe otherwise you are either the most naive person in the world or you haven't ever gone outside.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is way more to do with the game's design than anyone seems to want to admit...
A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
Yet there were mechanics that punished the unsavory players, not the least of which was gameplay with player interaction like pvp or group content.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
It is way more to do with the game's design than anyone seems to want to admit...
A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)
The first part ignores the second part of your post.... As it's about people not seeing a reward in forming communities. Folks today don't care about what players could be doing together, nor how they as a community could bring a whole new level of play for all involved, even in a themepark game. They care about how they will get what they want, doing it in the shortest amount of time, with the least effort. That element was always there, it has just taken over the greater community at large in this day and age.
I hate using the word, but I think fanboism drives a lot these types of arguments, fanbois of whatever old game did things the way they'd prefer. EQ fanbois all think it's the only design that brings about community, DAOC fanbois think it's the only good PVP, SWG fanbois (myself included) think it's the best way, etc...
In short it's not really about mechanics, it's about the type of player you're playing with. What they want, what they care about, how social they are, etc... this is what drives the experience they provide as fellow players. If people really cared about forming a nice large community of players, all of the games on the market would be very different experiences than they are now.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Dullahan Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
It is not about character or morality. Mechanics, features and implementations (such as content difficulty and even actual death penalties) which push people to work with one another within an MMO, are not going to change any person's character or morality overall. Accountability (given a player can not just server transfer or change identity) in such a scenario, whereas a player (or rather their in-game character) is not just anonymous, is thus forced to not act as disrespectful (and thus by necessity needs to maintain some amount of respect) as they would otherwise. These qualities persuade players toward a better semblance of community. Today's MMOs, not so much.
Fuck respect! I don't know you well enough to give that to you! Over the internet for that matter!
But I will however show you some common fucking courtesy! And extend it any way possible!
Originally posted by Dullahan Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
It is not about character or morality. Mechanics, features and implementations (such as content difficulty and even actual death penalties) which push people to work with one another within an MMO, are not going to change any person's character or morality overall. Accountability (given a player can not just server transfer or change identity) in such a scenario, whereas a player (or rather their in-game character) is not just anonymous, is thus forced to not act as disrespectful (and thus by necessity needs to maintain some amount of respect) as they would otherwise. These qualities persuade players toward a better semblance of community. Today's MMOs, not so much.
Originally posted by Kazuhiro
Originally posted by Scorchien Xbox generation
This, and the fact that each generation seems to get less... hmm... evolved than the last one. (At least here in the USA.)
PS: The movie "idiocracy" is a movie today, but a documentary in 50 years.
Actually, consoles are irrelevant. Back in the "golden age of the MMORPG," we still had Atari, Nintendo, Sega Master System, Super Nintendo, Lynx, Sega Genesis, Playstation (I might be thinking the wrong one here), et al.
Other than that, yes, the majority of each generation has and does seem to play right along with Idiocracy. The greater the population numbers, the less of a percentage of that population has a higher intellect. But even still, that number of intellects and their heights of intelligence does increase in actual numbers. Unfortunately, the majority of the population acts as a barrier to those intellects being able to fulfill their potentials. Thus, those intellects need far more and greater personal strengths than any intellects that have come before them. That is the future issue that will ultimately no longer be able to be overcome by those individual intellects. I only hope reincarnation is not part of reality for that sole reason.
Originally posted by Dullahan Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
It is not about character or morality. Mechanics, features and implementations (such as content difficulty and even actual death penalties) which push people to work with one another within an MMO, are not going to change any person's character or morality overall. Accountability (given a player can not just server transfer or change identity) in such a scenario, whereas a player (or rather their in-game character) is not just anonymous, is thus forced to not act as disrespectful (and thus by necessity needs to maintain some amount of respect) as they would otherwise. These qualities persuade players toward a better semblance of community. Today's MMOs, not so much.
Fuck respect! I don't know you well enough to give that to you! Over the internet for that matter!
But I will however show you some common fucking courtesy! And extend it any way possible!
Case in point. If you were at risk of catching a virtual bow to the face for mouthing off, you might bite your tongue.
Its not about what game did what right, its a simple principle that facilitates the operation of everything in the world.
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
Yet there were mechanics that punished the unsavory players, not the least of which was gameplay with player interaction like pvp or group content.
Whatever do you mean? the unsavory just form their own huge alliances like Goonswarm(or whatever other group of net-bullies that exists.) and proceed to take over servers and ruin experiences. No where is this more evident than open ended games that feature world PVP. What genre are you playing? As it's not the MMORPG one in reality.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Xorian7 Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.
EQ1 fostered a community by all but eliminating solo content. With the games of today that you do almost everything solo, players no longer have a need to be social. Along with the ability to name change and server transfer there is no consequence for being an asshat. I still remember several players in EQ1 who quit or changed characters because they were outcast. When you have anonymity you tend do and say things you would not do, if not for the anonymity.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
Yet there were mechanics that punished the unsavory players, not the least of which was gameplay with player interaction like pvp or group content.
Whatever do you mean? the unsavory just form their own huge alliances like Goonswarm(or whatever other group of net-bullies that exists.) and proceed to take over servers and ruin experiences. No where is this more evident than open ended games that feature world PVP. What genre are you playing? As it's not the MMORPG one in reality.
Sounds like a drawback to the game you're playing. In the games I've played where these folks made guilds and alliances, they were always crushed by the nice guys and the professional players generally because they offered a more attractive guild alternative to the average player.
Forcing people to group isn't the answer, never was really, but I would like a bit more downtime between fights, (and in game in general) but am in a clear minority in this regard. Fortunately for me EVE has both in abundance so at least I have one game I can enjoy.
You already have the option of asking everyone to stop for 5 min and chat.
There is no point forcing others to accede to your preference though. If others don't want down-time, i do not see why you should be able to force it on them.
Well, unfortunately due to the level disparity, you really can't get together a like minded group together very easily at the lower levels, so this normally only happens when I catch up to my guild for end game.
You are correct, I can't force others to accede to my preferences, which is why I don't play games that the developers don't include downtime in their design, which is why I'm only playing EVE these days.
True .. that is why most of these games are designed so that leveling is fast, and most of the gameplay takes place at max level .. where the level disparity is nil (abate there is gear disparity).
and you also mention exactly one of the reasons (abate many others) why i tried but will not play Eve.
Because that is what the majority of humanity sinks to, further and further in it's "me, me, me" struggle for creature comforts "right now" without any regard to what other people are effected by their actions in acquiring what they want. The community in mmo's and even in forum sites such as this one (and there are plenty more as examples), is enough to clearly see this.
Lord of the Flies.
It is too bad that the human creature overall does not understand such literature.
Whatever do you mean? the unsavory just form their own huge alliances like Goonswarm(or whatever other group of net-bullies that exists.) and proceed to take over servers and ruin experiences. No where is this more evident than open ended games that feature world PVP. What genre are you playing? As it's not the MMORPG one in reality.
Not in games where experiences cannot be adversely impacted by others. No one can ruin my instanced dungeon because there is only one group in it .. and if I don't like the group ... i hit the quit button.
Few games will force you to open world pvp. If your experiences are being ruined by others, it is only because you do not pick the right game to play.
Comments
Foomerang 2 vs Dullahan 0
Lol, in make believe land.
Game mechanics do make a difference in attitudes and if you don't understand that, its probably because you started online gaming in the last decade or perhaps you've never had a job working with other people, as a professional, so you can't relate to my analogy. An analogy which he completely ignored and moved to "solo play doesn't create jerks" an irrelevant statement and a misrepresentation of what I actually said, the same way he moved away from debating the point earlier where, he was forced to equate some sort of implied or hidden greed in older games, and compare it to active aggression and trolling that goes on so commonly in games today.
The lack of Accountability creates jerks in the anonymous land of the internets. That is a fact beyond debate. When interaction is required to progress in a video game, it curbs those tendencies, the same way it does when people are trying to progress in the real world.
Nostalgia fallacy 0. Logic 2
I used to carry a quote which read, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I think that fits well within this discussion. A game mechanic may change a persons behavior, but not their will. Your perception of another persons behavior may appear to be a genuine well to change, but that is nothing more than assumption. Peoples moods change more than the rules in these games anyway. So who's to say? But if your favorite album suddenly became outlawed, punishable by death, you'd get rid of it. But I bet you'd still love that album.
I self identify as a monkey.
Still, that is the same fallacy. No one is expecting game mechanics to improve or alter a persons character or morality, neither am I arguing that point. That is a strawman. Its simply about accountability and creating a less hostile environment where people respect each other, even if some folks are doing it through grit teeth.
Its both sad and crazy that I have to expound upon the finer points of something as simple as accountability.
A quote from one of the smartest MMO designers in the business.
To anyone that believes game mechanics don't influence the way players act, you're out of touch with reality.
"A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)" RAPH KOSTER, of UO and SWG fame, the latter of which is considered the most social and community driven MMO to date.
Those are the same folks outside of MMOs!
You know exactly who I am talking about!
The folks who need to be praised at work! Need to be acknowledge that they are doing a great job! A medal or a reward for their great work! They spend all day complaining about their work and are completely unhappy.
Better to an asshole than a fucking dumbass!
You say its not about character or morality and in the same breath say its about accountability and respect. I dont think you are using those words correctly.
All those guys that you used to be isolated from by playing MMOs, started playing MMOs themselves (thank WoW for that). The population of this genre didn't come from a bunch of babies born overnight, it came from other genres being convinced (via WoW), that MMOs were now 'cool', and that not only nerds in their mother's basement were playing them.
This, and the fact that each generation seems to get less... hmm... evolved than the last one. (At least here in the USA.)
PS: The movie "idiocracy" is a movie today, but a documentary in 50 years.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
The dictionary seems to think I am. Stop trying to connect morality with accountability. Even "bad guys" can do those things, and if you really believe otherwise you are either the most naive person in the world or you haven't ever gone outside.
Plenty of games that allowed solo play fostered great communities, two prime examples are UO as well as SWG. Solo play isn't the problem, nor is the overly used eq1 example the pinnacle of community play.
The problem is people don't care about forming communities any longer, it's essentially everyone for themselves or their small group of in-game friends today. That's teh crux of it all, mechanics really aren't going to change that, I doubt much of anything will.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is way more to do with the game's design than anyone seems to want to admit...
A sad fact about you players, as a whole: you only do what you are rewarded for. You will do something less fun if you see a carrot at the end of the stick, and you will ignore something more fun if it doesn’t give you a “ding” or an XP reward or a title.” – Holocron (11-26-2002 10:55 PM)
Yet there were mechanics that punished the unsavory players, not the least of which was gameplay with player interaction like pvp or group content.
Excellent statement!
The first part ignores the second part of your post.... As it's about people not seeing a reward in forming communities. Folks today don't care about what players could be doing together, nor how they as a community could bring a whole new level of play for all involved, even in a themepark game. They care about how they will get what they want, doing it in the shortest amount of time, with the least effort. That element was always there, it has just taken over the greater community at large in this day and age.
I hate using the word, but I think fanboism drives a lot these types of arguments, fanbois of whatever old game did things the way they'd prefer. EQ fanbois all think it's the only design that brings about community, DAOC fanbois think it's the only good PVP, SWG fanbois (myself included) think it's the best way, etc...
In short it's not really about mechanics, it's about the type of player you're playing with. What they want, what they care about, how social they are, etc... this is what drives the experience they provide as fellow players. If people really cared about forming a nice large community of players, all of the games on the market would be very different experiences than they are now.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Fuck respect! I don't know you well enough to give that to you! Over the internet for that matter!
But I will however show you some common fucking courtesy! And extend it any way possible!
It is not about character or morality. Mechanics, features and implementations (such as content difficulty and even actual death penalties) which push people to work with one another within an MMO, are not going to change any person's character or morality overall. Accountability (given a player can not just server transfer or change identity) in such a scenario, whereas a player (or rather their in-game character) is not just anonymous, is thus forced to not act as disrespectful (and thus by necessity needs to maintain some amount of respect) as they would otherwise. These qualities persuade players toward a better semblance of community. Today's MMOs, not so much.
Actually, consoles are irrelevant. Back in the "golden age of the MMORPG," we still had Atari, Nintendo, Sega Master System, Super Nintendo, Lynx, Sega Genesis, Playstation (I might be thinking the wrong one here), et al.
Other than that, yes, the majority of each generation has and does seem to play right along with Idiocracy. The greater the population numbers, the less of a percentage of that population has a higher intellect. But even still, that number of intellects and their heights of intelligence does increase in actual numbers. Unfortunately, the majority of the population acts as a barrier to those intellects being able to fulfill their potentials. Thus, those intellects need far more and greater personal strengths than any intellects that have come before them. That is the future issue that will ultimately no longer be able to be overcome by those individual intellects. I only hope reincarnation is not part of reality for that sole reason.
Case in point. If you were at risk of catching a virtual bow to the face for mouthing off, you might bite your tongue.
Its not about what game did what right, its a simple principle that facilitates the operation of everything in the world.
Whatever do you mean? the unsavory just form their own huge alliances like Goonswarm(or whatever other group of net-bullies that exists.) and proceed to take over servers and ruin experiences. No where is this more evident than open ended games that feature world PVP. What genre are you playing? As it's not the MMORPG one in reality.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sounds like a drawback to the game you're playing. In the games I've played where these folks made guilds and alliances, they were always crushed by the nice guys and the professional players generally because they offered a more attractive guild alternative to the average player.
True .. that is why most of these games are designed so that leveling is fast, and most of the gameplay takes place at max level .. where the level disparity is nil (abate there is gear disparity).
and you also mention exactly one of the reasons (abate many others) why i tried but will not play Eve.
Why is the community so terrible these days?
Because that is what the majority of humanity sinks to, further and further in it's "me, me, me" struggle for creature comforts "right now" without any regard to what other people are effected by their actions in acquiring what they want. The community in mmo's and even in forum sites such as this one (and there are plenty more as examples), is enough to clearly see this.
Lord of the Flies.
It is too bad that the human creature overall does not understand such literature.
Not in games where experiences cannot be adversely impacted by others. No one can ruin my instanced dungeon because there is only one group in it .. and if I don't like the group ... i hit the quit button.
Few games will force you to open world pvp. If your experiences are being ruined by others, it is only because you do not pick the right game to play.