We had a good thing with P2P sub games; $15 measly dollars a month for the whole shabang. "F2P" by design simply cannot produce that kind of bang for buck.
hmm .. bang for the buck .. is much better when there is no buck to pay.
I don't know what is the obsession of "getting everything". You probably won't play everything anyway. So you are telling me getting a fun part of a game for free is a *bad* thing?
We had a good thing with P2P sub games; $15 measly dollars a month for the whole shabang. "F2P" by design simply cannot produce that kind of bang for buck.
hmm .. bang for the buck .. is much better when there is no buck to pay.
I don't know what is the obsession of "getting everything". You probably won't play everything anyway. So you are telling me getting a fun part of a game for free is a *bad* thing?
There is no obsession and I am well aware I'm likely not going to be "getting everything". However, if it's an awesome game and lots of fun, I may perhaps desire more than getting my toes wet; and maybe just maybe, I might not want not want to dump a relatively large amount of moula down to do so.
You might be content with a gaming experience that spans the time of a normal shower or shit, I however am not.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
F2P can make more money than P2P because some people have little or no control over their spending when it comes to frivolous wants. This might be because the individual wants everything, expects everything or has some mental disorder that I am not qualified to diagnose. I simply remember the old saying "a fool and his money are soon parted"
There are clearly two sides to the F2P client base. Those people that spend little to no money on virtual items, and those who spend a lot of money on virtual items. The latter would likely feel that the F2P mmo's are too expensive while the people that are more conservative will feel that they are a fair deal or better.
What this all boils down to is that if you feel that F2P is too expensive, it's not a developer problem or a community problem, it's a personal problem.
Right, I personally like to have access to an entire game not mere portions of it. For this reason "F2P" is more ($) for less (game); a lot of people seemed fine with this but it would appear that more and more people, after dipping their toes, see this payment model for what it truly is....Great for gaming studios not so great for those that play the games.
Wut?
OK, now is the time to enlighten us all which F2P games youve played.
I think you would be challenged to name some that don't fall into that category, perhaps in your experience of F2P games, you can name some where this practice is less prevalent ?
Fuck, I'd love to hear about some "F2P" games (MMOs not MOBAs etc.) where you get the whole game and not just a portion for FREE.
We had a good thing with P2P sub games; $15 measly dollars a month for the whole shabang. "F2P" by design simply cannot produce that kind of bang for buck.
so you havent played any, good to know.
They're "F2P". I've played countless at this point. Bandwidth is the only issue where I'm from.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by ThomasN7 That was the whole point of dev switching from a monthly sub to a f2p model. In the long run it costs more to play a f2p game.
[pointlessly large 'exactly' GIF]
Too bad there isn't a single data source you can cite to support that.
I'm still waiting for an answer to Lokto's post. A lot of people are farting out numbers out of any orifice they can find without any proof to back them up, and when asked, they just go silent.
I still like these numbers and I don't really care if others do or not, the numbers at least "jive" loosely based on the data that's known. Even if the numbers were off, even significantly, it would still show that P2P is a significantly more profitable revenue model, if you can get the numbers. That's the biggest thing, too, is getting the numbers. Sorry, the market is NOT growing. If anything it's shrinking, but WoW continues to maintain a consistent 50% market share, so it's not like there is a ton of market opportunity. That's the primary reason that Hybrid systems work so well, if you can secure a single month of sub from each of your free users, once a year, then you're golden!!
Averages in particular mean jack and shit... Jack just left town by the way.
F2P rakes in about 2.5x the amount of P2P last I read. That is +150% more than what a subscription per month makes.
The way F2P VS P2P was explained on one forum, was that based on supply and demand, P2P only chooses a single point of what customers are willing to pay (let us say $15 per month). If that point were on the graph below, It would be approximately where the green / yellow line is in the L-curve below. F2P on the other hand, allows all of what all customers are willing to pay to be filled in, thus raking in more money than P2P can.
And then I am told I am the one speaking out of my ass?
I think you got so rapt in your own crazy that you missed the part where, yes, you are in fact speaking out of your ass. Either that or you, also, don't know what you are talking about.
F2P MMOs cost more to play than subscription MMOs. -- For ~80-90% of the playerbase, that is false.
F2P MMOs make more money. -- That is true, however it has absolutely nothing to do with what ThomasN7 wrote or with what we were discussing.
No amount of sass or colored fonts will change that.
100% of the INTEGRITY of F2P MMOs as they stand today is shot. That includes for the playerbase that leaves the game, plays entirely for free, pays a reasonable amount, plays as a dolphin or as a whale. No amount of money or denial or propaganda can change that.
I mean damn, instead of buying the chess set box and being able to play, it is expected that the pieces are bought instead. $5 for a pawn. $15 per bishop. $20 per knight. $25 per rook. $100 per queen. $500 per king (with the allowance of 1 king for free upon entry). The box used to be $50, $100 for a nice "custom set" which had the exact same game available. That is the difference between the old p2p sub style and today's f2p.
Of course the p2w reduction methods, that you and the rest of the peanut gallery happen to abhor, would actually correct that issue. But what do I know?
We had a good thing with P2P sub games; $15 measly dollars a month for the whole shabang. "F2P" by design simply cannot produce that kind of bang for buck.
hmm .. bang for the buck .. is much better when there is no buck to pay.
I don't know what is the obsession of "getting everything". You probably won't play everything anyway. So you are telling me getting a fun part of a game for free is a *bad* thing?
There is no obsession and I am well aware I'm likely not going to be "getting everything". However, if it's an awesome game and lots of fun, I may perhaps desire more than getting my toes wet; and maybe just maybe, I might not want not want to dump a relatively large amount of moula down to do so.
You might be content with a gaming experience that spans the time of a normal shower or shit, I however am not.
hmm .. what f2p game does not give you at least hours of free fun? They need to get you hooked.
in fact, take Marvel Heroes as an example .. you can finished all the story content for free, with one or two heroes .. tell me is there a reason to refuse that free fun (if one likes the game)?
I don't see a problem "getting my toes wet" for free .. if the water is fun. Again, you are too obsessed with immersing yourself head to toe. In fact, that is probably the making of a whale .. and i would like to thank you (and your kind) for funding lots of pools of waters to get my toes wet forever.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 That was the whole point of dev switching from a monthly sub to a f2p model. In the long run it costs more to play a f2p game.
[pointlessly large 'exactly' GIF]
Too bad there isn't a single data source you can cite to support that.
I'm still waiting for an answer to Lokto's post. A lot of people are farting out numbers out of any orifice they can find without any proof to back them up, and when asked, they just go silent.
I still like these numbers and I don't really care if others do or not, the numbers at least "jive" loosely based on the data that's known. Even if the numbers were off, even significantly, it would still show that P2P is a significantly more profitable revenue model, if you can get the numbers. That's the biggest thing, too, is getting the numbers. Sorry, the market is NOT growing. If anything it's shrinking, but WoW continues to maintain a consistent 50% market share, so it's not like there is a ton of market opportunity. That's the primary reason that Hybrid systems work so well, if you can secure a single month of sub from each of your free users, once a year, then you're golden!!
Averages in particular mean jack and shit... Jack just left town by the way.
F2P rakes in about 2.5x the amount of P2P last I read. That is +150% more than what a subscription per month makes.
The way F2P VS P2P was explained on one forum, was that based on supply and demand, P2P only chooses a single point of what customers are willing to pay (let us say $15 per month). If that point were on the graph below, It would be approximately where the green / yellow line is in the L-curve below. F2P on the other hand, allows all of what all customers are willing to pay to be filled in, thus raking in more money than P2P can.
And then I am told I am the one speaking out of my ass?
I think you got so rapt in your own crazy that you missed the part where, yes, you are in fact speaking out of your ass. Either that or you, also, don't know what you are talking about.
F2P MMOs cost more to play than subscription MMOs. -- For ~80-90% of the playerbase, that is false.
F2P MMOs make more money. -- That is true, however it has absolutely nothing to do with what ThomasN7 wrote or with what we were discussing.
No amount of sass or colored fonts will change that.
100% of the INTEGRITY of F2P MMOs as they stand today is shot. That includes for the playerbase that leaves the game, plays entirely for free, pays a reasonable amount, plays as a dolphin or as a whale. No amount of money or denial or propaganda can change that.
I mean damn, instead of buying the chess set box and being able to play, it is expected that the pieces are bought instead. $5 for a pawn. $15 per bishop. $20 per knight. $25 per rook. $100 per queen. $500 per king (with the allowance of 1 king for free upon entry). The box used to be $50, $100 for a nice "custom set" which had the exact same game available. That is the difference between the old p2p sub style and today's f2p.
Of course the p2w reduction methods, that you and the rest of the peanut gallery happen to abhor, would actually correct that issue. But what do I know?
Firstof all, that still has nothing to do with the fact that for the majority of players, F2P does not cost more than subscription.
Second, as for your p2w reduction thing, I've never read it, so for the love of mud stop bring it up in every damn thread and insisting that I and everyone else is against it.
But what do I know?
Clearly, nothing about the business or industry.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Advertised as free to play on TV... you know, the commercials with Kate Upton and her ginormous jugs spilling out...
First Gold Pack is $4.99US, next jumps to $19.99US, then after that, each Gold Pack costs $100 US from there on out !!!
Who ever heard of paying $100 for a game, a Mobile game at that in which a Gold Pack doesn't even give you 1/10,000th of what you need to build your city. Then you still have building your troops!
Needless to say, I quit playing that and felt butthurt I spent $25!
It should be illegal for a game to offer an item in their cash shop, and then raise the price repeatedly once they suckered you into their game! It really pissed me off to think I could either chalk up $25 down the toilet, or I can start throwing in $100 a pop so I don't lose my initial investment!
NEVER PLAY GAME OF WAR! It's like you have to do a ton of research on any online game nowadays before you even think about trying it for free or else you risk being screwed over if you do decide to spend a few bucks because then they attempt to gouge the hell out of your wallet once you decide to support their game.
Is it obvious I am highly upset about the etiquette and lack of morals that the makers of Game of War have?!
Looking at the subscription games of today, if you want to do more than just play for 3-4 hours per week during raid time, you need to be subbed to more than one game, so "the sub model" is not "only 15 bucks" anymore. I'm happy about the free to play games, most of them offer enough to keep me entertained.
I was always able not to fall into the trap of spending more that i can afford on them, If you're in a spot where you do not realize that you spend more than you can afford, then you have a problem of a different nature.
It's hard for me to see some people asserting costs in a situation that is entirely dependent on circumstance and the individual.
For the sake of discussion, I'll be arguing against -- or rather, providing details or perceptions -- for the other side.
What most people oft forget to do is add up all the money they have actually spent on P2P games. In my case, I'll use WoW, FFXI, FFXIV, Ultimate Online and Dark Age of Camelot as an example.
I have pretty much had active accounts in all of the above since their inception. Have never really got rid of my UO subscription, or my WoW (until recently), nor my FFXI. Let my DAoC lapse a few times. Have been subscribed to FFXIV since 2010 (or rather, have played since and subscribed when they offered such).
For simplicity and argument's sake, then, let's add all of these fees together. Before we do this, let's figure out an average amount of years between then all. Again, for argument's sake, let's figure 15 years -- some are older, some are slightly younger, but all are old games.
Some notes:
At the start, some games were cheaper than before. With UO starting at around $9.99 a month. Though they quickly ramped up over the years to what we consider premium today. We'll consider them all $15 for this.
I have had multiple accounts for each game, save for FFXI. WoW is the worse aggressor when it comes to this, with me paying for a max of 7 accounts at any give time (multi-boxing / paying for family accounts). Again, for the sake of simplicity, we'll say that I only had one account for each game (and make a small note at the end with some of these added in).
There are cases of paid expansions that accompany the P2P space. For simplicity, I will also not be counting this.
Let's begin:
Cost of one game for a year: 15x12 = 180
For 15 years: 15x180 = $2,700
Five games: $2,700x5 = $13,500
For reasons of comparison when it comes to myself -- and only myself.
The total I've spent on F2P games over the past 15 years has probably been $250-$350 (off the top of my head).
Now to add in rough guesses of all the expansion for each game. For the sake of simplicity again, let's just use WoW's rate of expansions. It has had five expansions (with UO having much, much more, and FFXIV having about the same, minus the smaller portions they sold out in the later years). We'll consider it a flat $50, again for the sake of simplicity.
$50x5=250 (or as much as I have spent on F2P games personally)
250x5=1,250 (for the number of games I've been playing)
This totals to an additional $1,250 to add onto the $13,500... or $14,750 in total.
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
That said, I was using five accounts for the $14,750 total.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
To round the above off (and try and make up for the additional months and games not included), this is roughly...
15,000+15,000+15,000 = $45,000
...On P2P games since roughly 1998.
To add a final note, I will also say that I have played far more F2P games than I have P2P. There was a time when I was really into the F2P scene in the early days when they really were considered B2P to degrees that would be nearly unthinkable in today's terms. So even playing less P2P games, I have personally paid out much more. In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful". I'm a role player first and foremost (and an economy manipulator secondly), so the only purchases I consider buying are aesthetics. Lastly, the figures involved in my F2P purchases do not include B2P games.
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
Now, value is a different thing altogether and also dependent on what an individual find fun.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
F2P can make more money than P2P because some people have little or no control over their spending when it comes to frivolous wants. This might be because the individual wants everything, expects everything or has some mental disorder that I am not qualified to diagnose. I simply remember the old saying "a fool and his money are soon parted"
There are clearly two sides to the F2P client base. Those people that spend little to no money on virtual items, and those who spend a lot of money on virtual items. The latter would likely feel that the F2P mmo's are too expensive while the people that are more conservative will feel that they are a fair deal or better.
What this all boils down to is that if you feel that F2P is too expensive, it's not a developer problem or a community problem, it's a personal problem.
Right, I personally like to have access to an entire game not mere portions of it. For this reason "F2P" is more ($) for less (game); a lot of people seemed fine with this but it would appear that more and more people, after dipping their toes, see this payment model for what it truly is....Great for gaming studios not so great for those that play the games.
Wut?
OK, now is the time to enlighten us all which F2P games youve played.
I think you would be challenged to name some that don't fall into that category, perhaps in your experience of F2P games, you can name some where this practice is less prevalent ?
Fuck, I'd love to hear about some "F2P" games (MMOs not MOBAs etc.) where you get the whole game and not just a portion for FREE.
We had a good thing with P2P sub games; $15 measly dollars a month for the whole shabang. "F2P" by design simply cannot produce that kind of bang for buck.
I think the biggest issue, is how much you can play without paying, in a P2P game, there are no pay walls, you pay a set amount which gives you access to all of the games features/content, with F2P games, you have a basic level of gameplay which, is often very minimal, and unless you are prepared to pay for it, then there are a lot of features that you just don't have access to, which is why more often than not, to gain the same level of gameplay as in a P2P game, a player in a F2P game will end up having to pay more, this is probably why so many F2P games have a very high rate of churn, because players don't want to pay anything, or at least beyond a certain amount, and end up leaving the game when they need to exceed that limit in order to continue/progress, this can even be demonstrated by the presence in the cash shop of XP potions, where players can buy them in order to reduce the grind for a level or two, rather than grind the same content for hours on end for minimal XP. If you want to experience anything other than a mediocre level of gameplay, in a F2P game, then you really have to be prepared to pay for it, and that is how they make their money.
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful".
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
I don't really understand your story to be honest.
You have 15 accounts total, 7 WoW accounts and 3 FFXIV accounts and two DAOC accounts and some others.
Let's ignore you are not the norm for a minute.
It is obvious you are a power player interested in multiboxing.
But then you say you are not interested in being "the most powerful".
If you have the money and have the desire to play 15 accounts on P2P, I think you would be a very likely candidate for those people spending hundreds of $ every month on F2P. Maybe you don't, but then your story is kind of weird.
free to play is not right for all games, it seems to only work right now for some MMOs. TF2 seems to do well but I think that's an oddity, make any other good game like that in the same genre f2p and I doubt you'd see such high adoption of new players, it's mostly it's exposure on Steam and that Valve is the team behind it.
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful".
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
I don't really understand your story to be honest.
You have 15 accounts total, 7 WoW accounts and 3 FFXIV accounts and two DAOC accounts and some others.
Let's ignore you are not the norm for a minute.
It is obvious you are a power player interested in multiboxing.
But then you say you are not interested in being "the most powerful".
If you have the money and have the desire to play 15 accounts on P2P, I think you would be a very likely candidate for those people spending hundreds of $ every month on F2P. Maybe you don't, but then your story is kind of weird.
But that's exactly my point. I seem like something, but I am an individual. In my situation -- knowing my tendencies -- if I wanted to save money, I wouldn't be playing all those P2P games.
The Number of characters does not equate to being the most powerful, unless you think the only reason for multiboxing is PvP. In truth, it is incredibly useful for economy manipulation and making a lot of gold / gil. If I could gain roughly 50-200k gold per week with a single account (not even counting auction house manipulation), that is multiplied with how many accounts I have -- which worked quite well with the ways I made gold. Not only that, but multiboxing has provided a greater challenge -- a new way to play a game and to manage things. Have you ever tried being a tank, healer and three dps in a dungeon before? In addition, I've been able to do some unique things in RP with multiple accounts -- setting up special events and the like.
In truth, I could probably pay for several years with WoW by now with my gold. But I've lost interest in the game as a whole.
It's all about researching and knowing the ins and outs of the game in terms of manipulation. All of my characters besides have blue or very crappy gear, as I don't even care to use said gold / gil to upgrade their equipment. That is literally wasting money as I won't be playing them to make use of it (unless the characters require said power to make even more gold). This holds true with pretty much all games. In addition, this tendency perhaps translates into my dislike to pay more money than I have to when I can survive on the bare minimum or what a game in question offers. Not that all F2P games or B2P games are like this. FFXIV is one of my favorite games now because there is so much to do with the gil -- including buying multiple mansions and being able to make anything I please to put in them. In addition to one of my characters being RP'd as a person that's well off and literally buys things such as houses for others (me being a RPer first and foremost, as that's in his character).
Let's ignore all the extra accounts and simply note the single $15,000 vs $250 statistic on my part (even though $45,000 is still the valid portion for my part). Even if you only count a single game, you have to consider then every F2P game I've played as well and only count one. Many of which I never spent a dime. So the results comes out to be the same.
Let's then further compare it to a "normal" person, say, has two of their favorite games active at any given time. You're still looking at thousands and thousands of dollars accrued over time vs. potentially nothing with F2P games. I say nothing because, even if you think the worst of a game, you -- as you yourself implied -- have to think of the norm. What is the norm? Well, that depends on what you're trying to argue or talk about. Is it that 99% of people want to do Hardcore Mythic / Savage raiding? Or is it that only 1% of the people fill that competitive role and 99% are essentially there to have fun and called "casual" players? Of people being totally okay with dungeon blues or "welfare" epics so long as they see story and maybe even participate in the "LFR" system. Maybe it's just 99% of them wanting to buy something (though, let's be honest... people like to save money, which is the whole point of this thread, I assume).
Not all F2P games are "P2W" as well. Though of those that clearly are, it's still up to the individual to know their wants and needs out of a game. It is also important to note if you care about the way others choose to play the game. While I cannot fathom why someone would care how I or something acquired something, it is a common thing or a need to feel superior to others, I suppose. Perhaps that is part of what drives me to control economies -- even though I just like being able to buy stuff for my friends no matter the cost (and even got upset with FFXIV at one time due to incredibly expensive housing when I was planning on buying others houses with all my gil). Heck, I even have a good idea as to how to control Heavensward's economy at the moment simply by paying attention to streams, interviews and fan-made videos.
In the end, we have a repeating argument. It's true for some that one is more expensive than the other. There is no definitive assertion, just personal preference and knowing what you find fun and entertaining. If you have to work for your items in a P2P game, and then have to do so in a F2P game... what is the difference other than caring about how others obtain something? To me, there is none as they can do what they want with their lives and what they find entertaining. Though, again, that's just considering the worst F2P has to offer in terms of "P2W" shops.
Let's also not forget that WoW also has a cash shop. In fact, they make incredible amounts of money off of selling virtual horses and aesthetics and even sell power in the form of instant level 90s. The point being is that people will spend money on something they enjoy. It's the individual's responsibility to know what they like and to control impulse buying, or stay away from something if monetary conservation is required.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful".
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
I don't really understand your story to be honest.
You have 15 accounts total, 7 WoW accounts and 3 FFXIV accounts and two DAOC accounts and some others.
Let's ignore you are not the norm for a minute.
It is obvious you are a power player interested in multiboxing.
But then you say you are not interested in being "the most powerful".
If you have the money and have the desire to play 15 accounts on P2P, I think you would be a very likely candidate for those people spending hundreds of $ every month on F2P. Maybe you don't, but then your story is kind of weird.
He's more representative of the norm than most people here.
Based on the information he's provided so far of his subscription gameplay and spending, I'd say this would be an accurate description of his F2P experience:
He's the type to maybe spend five dollars or so the first day if it's mildly amusing. More than likely, he doesn't spend anything for a few weeks until he feels it's a game that he's going to go all-in on. I'd say he's found 1 or at most 2 games that hit all the items on his checklist that he's looking for. Of those two, out of possibly dozens of F2P games he's played, that is where the majority of that 250-350 went, with little or absolutely nothing spent on the majority of the F2P games he's played.
Yaevindusk, am I close?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful".
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
I don't really understand your story to be honest.
You have 15 accounts total, 7 WoW accounts and 3 FFXIV accounts and two DAOC accounts and some others.
Let's ignore you are not the norm for a minute.
It is obvious you are a power player interested in multiboxing.
But then you say you are not interested in being "the most powerful".
If you have the money and have the desire to play 15 accounts on P2P, I think you would be a very likely candidate for those people spending hundreds of $ every month on F2P. Maybe you don't, but then your story is kind of weird.
He's more representative of the norm than most people here.
Based on the information he's provided so far of his subscription gameplay and spending, I'd say this would be an accurate description of his F2P experience:
He's the type to maybe spend five dollars or so the first day if it's mildly amusing. More than likely, he doesn't spend anything for a few weeks until he feels it's a game that he's going to go all-in on. I'd say he's found 1 or at most 2 games that hit all the items on his checklist that he's looking for. Of those two, out of possibly dozens of F2P games he's played, that is where the majority of that 250-350 went, with little or absolutely nothing spent on the majority of the F2P games he's played.
Yaevindusk, am I close?
That is essentially the mindset I have when going into F2P games, yes. In addition, even if a game has a "P2W" endgame, my entertainment in getting to max level or in making Alts will likely have me invest in cosmetic items or something that involves crafting. I know what entertains me and make my own things to do in game. Though in most cases, an ideal F2P that hits those spots for me also gives me ample things to do, even if it isn't the cutting edge of power (or obvious to some that they can be done or found enjoyable). The RP community also helps in whatever game I stick to for a time.
Edit: If a game also has me coming back to it in the future, I may also subscribe to them or buy $15 worth of stuff from the item shop or more since it caused me to do such.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Funny, but I haven't spent a single penny on a F2P MMO...
I guess I just have more self-control than most people...
Perhaps the descriptor, Pay-to-Play is incorrect... it should be Pay-to-Enter because that's literally what you are doing. In F2P, you can spend a fortune or nothing at all... depending on how impulsive you are.
Reality check my friend... it's never an even playing field. Who has the better ping? The better computer? The list goes on and on. If you're not having fun, it doesn't matter if your opponent is Donald Trump or that homeless guy panhandling on the street corner.
Also, who has the greater victory in the end, David or Goliath? Beating an opponent who is greater than you is far more satisfying than beating an opponent who is not. Knowing that you held your own against insurmountable odds makes you a hero. That's why the Medal of Honor doesn't go to the victor but to the one that gave it their all.
This is what happens when people always want free. Everything gets hurt because of it. Incidentally, most f2p MMOs also have a sub option that gives you access to most of the game and is $15 a month. I'd rather pay the $15 a month but it still isn't right. If you pay monthly, you should have access to ALL of the game without limits and without having to pay for it.
Originally posted by Moirae This is what happens when people always want free. Everything gets hurt because of it. Incidentally, most f2p MMOs also have a sub option that gives you access to most of the game and is $15 a month. I'd rather pay the $15 a month but it still isn't right. If you pay monthly, you should have access to ALL of the game without limits and without having to pay for it.
What "everything gets hurt"?
How is playing some fun part of games for free hurt me?
I think something that we all can obtain from this thread is that some people who have poor spending habits and suffer from an undeniable need for "keeping up with the Jones's" via entitlement issues, also feel completely justified to complain about it to random people on the internet in an attempt to make their social disorder appear to be the responsibility of someone else.
Am I surprised? No
Are they completely oblivious to what they are doing? Well lets just see the comments below...
Will I get banned for describing "a need for keeping up with the Jones's" as a social disorder? Only time will tell...
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Comments
hmm .. bang for the buck .. is much better when there is no buck to pay.
I don't know what is the obsession of "getting everything". You probably won't play everything anyway. So you are telling me getting a fun part of a game for free is a *bad* thing?
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/all-games/
enjoy.
There is no obsession and I am well aware I'm likely not going to be "getting everything". However, if it's an awesome game and lots of fun, I may perhaps desire more than getting my toes wet; and maybe just maybe, I might not want not want to dump a relatively large amount of moula down to do so.
You might be content with a gaming experience that spans the time of a normal shower or shit, I however am not.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
They're "F2P". I've played countless at this point. Bandwidth is the only issue where I'm from.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
100% of the INTEGRITY of F2P MMOs as they stand today is shot. That includes for the playerbase that leaves the game, plays entirely for free, pays a reasonable amount, plays as a dolphin or as a whale. No amount of money or denial or propaganda can change that.
I mean damn, instead of buying the chess set box and being able to play, it is expected that the pieces are bought instead. $5 for a pawn. $15 per bishop. $20 per knight. $25 per rook. $100 per queen. $500 per king (with the allowance of 1 king for free upon entry). The box used to be $50, $100 for a nice "custom set" which had the exact same game available. That is the difference between the old p2p sub style and today's f2p.
Of course the p2w reduction methods, that you and the rest of the peanut gallery happen to abhor, would actually correct that issue. But what do I know?
hmm .. what f2p game does not give you at least hours of free fun? They need to get you hooked.
in fact, take Marvel Heroes as an example .. you can finished all the story content for free, with one or two heroes .. tell me is there a reason to refuse that free fun (if one likes the game)?
I don't see a problem "getting my toes wet" for free .. if the water is fun. Again, you are too obsessed with immersing yourself head to toe. In fact, that is probably the making of a whale .. and i would like to thank you (and your kind) for funding lots of pools of waters to get my toes wet forever.
Firstof all, that still has nothing to do with the fact that for the majority of players, F2P does not cost more than subscription.
Second, as for your p2w reduction thing, I've never read it, so for the love of mud stop bring it up in every damn thread and insisting that I and everyone else is against it.
But what do I know?
Clearly, nothing about the business or industry.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I feel you OP.
Game of War is a perfect example.
Advertised as free to play on TV... you know, the commercials with Kate Upton and her ginormous jugs spilling out...
First Gold Pack is $4.99US, next jumps to $19.99US, then after that, each Gold Pack costs $100 US from there on out !!!
Who ever heard of paying $100 for a game, a Mobile game at that in which a Gold Pack doesn't even give you 1/10,000th of what you need to build your city. Then you still have building your troops!
Needless to say, I quit playing that and felt butthurt I spent $25!
It should be illegal for a game to offer an item in their cash shop, and then raise the price repeatedly once they suckered you into their game! It really pissed me off to think I could either chalk up $25 down the toilet, or I can start throwing in $100 a pop so I don't lose my initial investment!
NEVER PLAY GAME OF WAR! It's like you have to do a ton of research on any online game nowadays before you even think about trying it for free or else you risk being screwed over if you do decide to spend a few bucks because then they attempt to gouge the hell out of your wallet once you decide to support their game.
Is it obvious I am highly upset about the etiquette and lack of morals that the makers of Game of War have?!
Looking at the subscription games of today, if you want to do more than just play for 3-4 hours per week during raid time, you need to be subbed to more than one game, so "the sub model" is not "only 15 bucks" anymore. I'm happy about the free to play games, most of them offer enough to keep me entertained.
I was always able not to fall into the trap of spending more that i can afford on them, If you're in a spot where you do not realize that you spend more than you can afford, then you have a problem of a different nature.
It's hard for me to see some people asserting costs in a situation that is entirely dependent on circumstance and the individual.
For the sake of discussion, I'll be arguing against -- or rather, providing details or perceptions -- for the other side.
What most people oft forget to do is add up all the money they have actually spent on P2P games. In my case, I'll use WoW, FFXI, FFXIV, Ultimate Online and Dark Age of Camelot as an example.
I have pretty much had active accounts in all of the above since their inception. Have never really got rid of my UO subscription, or my WoW (until recently), nor my FFXI. Let my DAoC lapse a few times. Have been subscribed to FFXIV since 2010 (or rather, have played since and subscribed when they offered such).
For simplicity and argument's sake, then, let's add all of these fees together. Before we do this, let's figure out an average amount of years between then all. Again, for argument's sake, let's figure 15 years -- some are older, some are slightly younger, but all are old games.
Some notes:
Let's begin:
Cost of one game for a year: 15x12 = 180
For 15 years: 15x180 = $2,700
Five games: $2,700x5 = $13,500
For reasons of comparison when it comes to myself -- and only myself.
The total I've spent on F2P games over the past 15 years has probably been $250-$350 (off the top of my head).
Now to add in rough guesses of all the expansion for each game. For the sake of simplicity again, let's just use WoW's rate of expansions. It has had five expansions (with UO having much, much more, and FFXIV having about the same, minus the smaller portions they sold out in the later years). We'll consider it a flat $50, again for the sake of simplicity.
$50x5=250 (or as much as I have spent on F2P games personally)
250x5=1,250 (for the number of games I've been playing)
This totals to an additional $1,250 to add onto the $13,500... or $14,750 in total.
As a side note, add to that my two UO accounts, my seven WoW accounts, my three FFXIV accounts (only two have been active since day one), and my two DAOC accounts.
That said, I was using five accounts for the $14,750 total.
In total, I have had 15 accounts active the for mostly the entire time (Not even counting new releases that I've spent money / several months on to try out).
To round the above off (and try and make up for the additional months and games not included), this is roughly...
15,000+15,000+15,000 = $45,000
...On P2P games since roughly 1998.
To add a final note, I will also say that I have played far more F2P games than I have P2P. There was a time when I was really into the F2P scene in the early days when they really were considered B2P to degrees that would be nearly unthinkable in today's terms. So even playing less P2P games, I have personally paid out much more. In addition, I do not have the personality or need to be "the best" or the "most powerful". I'm a role player first and foremost (and an economy manipulator secondly), so the only purchases I consider buying are aesthetics. Lastly, the figures involved in my F2P purchases do not include B2P games.
For me, it is clear which is cheaper.
Now, value is a different thing altogether and also dependent on what an individual find fun.
I think the biggest issue, is how much you can play without paying, in a P2P game, there are no pay walls, you pay a set amount which gives you access to all of the games features/content, with F2P games, you have a basic level of gameplay which, is often very minimal, and unless you are prepared to pay for it, then there are a lot of features that you just don't have access to, which is why more often than not, to gain the same level of gameplay as in a P2P game, a player in a F2P game will end up having to pay more, this is probably why so many F2P games have a very high rate of churn, because players don't want to pay anything, or at least beyond a certain amount, and end up leaving the game when they need to exceed that limit in order to continue/progress, this can even be demonstrated by the presence in the cash shop of XP potions, where players can buy them in order to reduce the grind for a level or two, rather than grind the same content for hours on end for minimal XP. If you want to experience anything other than a mediocre level of gameplay, in a F2P game, then you really have to be prepared to pay for it, and that is how they make their money.
I don't really understand your story to be honest.
You have 15 accounts total, 7 WoW accounts and 3 FFXIV accounts and two DAOC accounts and some others.
Let's ignore you are not the norm for a minute.
It is obvious you are a power player interested in multiboxing.
But then you say you are not interested in being "the most powerful".
If you have the money and have the desire to play 15 accounts on P2P, I think you would be a very likely candidate for those people spending hundreds of $ every month on F2P. Maybe you don't, but then your story is kind of weird.
But that's exactly my point. I seem like something, but I am an individual. In my situation -- knowing my tendencies -- if I wanted to save money, I wouldn't be playing all those P2P games.
The Number of characters does not equate to being the most powerful, unless you think the only reason for multiboxing is PvP. In truth, it is incredibly useful for economy manipulation and making a lot of gold / gil. If I could gain roughly 50-200k gold per week with a single account (not even counting auction house manipulation), that is multiplied with how many accounts I have -- which worked quite well with the ways I made gold. Not only that, but multiboxing has provided a greater challenge -- a new way to play a game and to manage things. Have you ever tried being a tank, healer and three dps in a dungeon before? In addition, I've been able to do some unique things in RP with multiple accounts -- setting up special events and the like.
In truth, I could probably pay for several years with WoW by now with my gold. But I've lost interest in the game as a whole.
It's all about researching and knowing the ins and outs of the game in terms of manipulation. All of my characters besides have blue or very crappy gear, as I don't even care to use said gold / gil to upgrade their equipment. That is literally wasting money as I won't be playing them to make use of it (unless the characters require said power to make even more gold). This holds true with pretty much all games. In addition, this tendency perhaps translates into my dislike to pay more money than I have to when I can survive on the bare minimum or what a game in question offers. Not that all F2P games or B2P games are like this. FFXIV is one of my favorite games now because there is so much to do with the gil -- including buying multiple mansions and being able to make anything I please to put in them. In addition to one of my characters being RP'd as a person that's well off and literally buys things such as houses for others (me being a RPer first and foremost, as that's in his character).
Let's ignore all the extra accounts and simply note the single $15,000 vs $250 statistic on my part (even though $45,000 is still the valid portion for my part). Even if you only count a single game, you have to consider then every F2P game I've played as well and only count one. Many of which I never spent a dime. So the results comes out to be the same.
Let's then further compare it to a "normal" person, say, has two of their favorite games active at any given time. You're still looking at thousands and thousands of dollars accrued over time vs. potentially nothing with F2P games. I say nothing because, even if you think the worst of a game, you -- as you yourself implied -- have to think of the norm. What is the norm? Well, that depends on what you're trying to argue or talk about. Is it that 99% of people want to do Hardcore Mythic / Savage raiding? Or is it that only 1% of the people fill that competitive role and 99% are essentially there to have fun and called "casual" players? Of people being totally okay with dungeon blues or "welfare" epics so long as they see story and maybe even participate in the "LFR" system. Maybe it's just 99% of them wanting to buy something (though, let's be honest... people like to save money, which is the whole point of this thread, I assume).
Not all F2P games are "P2W" as well. Though of those that clearly are, it's still up to the individual to know their wants and needs out of a game. It is also important to note if you care about the way others choose to play the game. While I cannot fathom why someone would care how I or something acquired something, it is a common thing or a need to feel superior to others, I suppose. Perhaps that is part of what drives me to control economies -- even though I just like being able to buy stuff for my friends no matter the cost (and even got upset with FFXIV at one time due to incredibly expensive housing when I was planning on buying others houses with all my gil). Heck, I even have a good idea as to how to control Heavensward's economy at the moment simply by paying attention to streams, interviews and fan-made videos.
In the end, we have a repeating argument. It's true for some that one is more expensive than the other. There is no definitive assertion, just personal preference and knowing what you find fun and entertaining. If you have to work for your items in a P2P game, and then have to do so in a F2P game... what is the difference other than caring about how others obtain something? To me, there is none as they can do what they want with their lives and what they find entertaining. Though, again, that's just considering the worst F2P has to offer in terms of "P2W" shops.
Let's also not forget that WoW also has a cash shop. In fact, they make incredible amounts of money off of selling virtual horses and aesthetics and even sell power in the form of instant level 90s. The point being is that people will spend money on something they enjoy. It's the individual's responsibility to know what they like and to control impulse buying, or stay away from something if monetary conservation is required.
He's more representative of the norm than most people here.
Based on the information he's provided so far of his subscription gameplay and spending, I'd say this would be an accurate description of his F2P experience:
He's the type to maybe spend five dollars or so the first day if it's mildly amusing. More than likely, he doesn't spend anything for a few weeks until he feels it's a game that he's going to go all-in on. I'd say he's found 1 or at most 2 games that hit all the items on his checklist that he's looking for. Of those two, out of possibly dozens of F2P games he's played, that is where the majority of that 250-350 went, with little or absolutely nothing spent on the majority of the F2P games he's played.
Yaevindusk, am I close?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why are you surprised? Few threads here are not flogging dead horses. That is the life blood of this place.
That is essentially the mindset I have when going into F2P games, yes. In addition, even if a game has a "P2W" endgame, my entertainment in getting to max level or in making Alts will likely have me invest in cosmetic items or something that involves crafting. I know what entertains me and make my own things to do in game. Though in most cases, an ideal F2P that hits those spots for me also gives me ample things to do, even if it isn't the cutting edge of power (or obvious to some that they can be done or found enjoyable). The RP community also helps in whatever game I stick to for a time.
Edit: If a game also has me coming back to it in the future, I may also subscribe to them or buy $15 worth of stuff from the item shop or more since it caused me to do such.
Funny, but I haven't spent a single penny on a F2P MMO...
I guess I just have more self-control than most people...
Perhaps the descriptor, Pay-to-Play is incorrect... it should be Pay-to-Enter because that's literally what you are doing. In F2P, you can spend a fortune or nothing at all... depending on how impulsive you are.
Reality check my friend... it's never an even playing field. Who has the better ping? The better computer? The list goes on and on. If you're not having fun, it doesn't matter if your opponent is Donald Trump or that homeless guy panhandling on the street corner.
Also, who has the greater victory in the end, David or Goliath? Beating an opponent who is greater than you is far more satisfying than beating an opponent who is not. Knowing that you held your own against insurmountable odds makes you a hero. That's why the Medal of Honor doesn't go to the victor but to the one that gave it their all.
What "everything gets hurt"?
How is playing some fun part of games for free hurt me?
I think something that we all can obtain from this thread is that some people who have poor spending habits and suffer from an undeniable need for "keeping up with the Jones's" via entitlement issues, also feel completely justified to complain about it to random people on the internet in an attempt to make their social disorder appear to be the responsibility of someone else.
Am I surprised? No
Are they completely oblivious to what they are doing? Well lets just see the comments below...
Will I get banned for describing "a need for keeping up with the Jones's" as a social disorder? Only time will tell...
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.