Originally posted by Dullahan Ya, but you still back landmark and EQ Next and havent come to the realization that modern MMOs are only moving in the wrong direction. I give you another year or two to change your tune, and lucky for you that is when Pantheon is scheduled to launch.
Basically, if the mmo genre isn't going the direction you want it to. It is the wrong direction? Got it.
Its the wrong direction because, currently, the vast majority are catering to one demographic instead of multiple demographics. Oversaturation. Whats more important than my opinion on the matter is the number of struggling games out there that spent 100s of millions to emulate rather than diversify and innovate. Now look how many big MMOs are on the horizon. Investors don't want to touch this genre with a 10 foot pole.
Finally things are looking up as teams are coming together to create niche games. Its going to be tough, as you can see in the case of Pantheon and numerous other indie games, but eventually a few of them will have success and this genre can move forward once again.
You make interesting points. But, I think you are wrong. I will explain respectfully. MMOs are not like regular games that after 6 months are a memory and let's go to the next new single player game or shooter. They last usually at least 5+ years. In the last 5 years we have had a large influx of new mmos. Some call them WoW clones. But, I think they give quite a bit diversity among a genre that has pretty specific staples.
That being said. The market is flooded with mmos atm. Which isn't a bad thing. We have that choice of different mmos as you suggest we don't. More so then we ever have. And many mmos trying new things like The Division, StarCitizen, Destiny and more action combat mmos like Tera. The problem really lies in this. What you really mean to say is that you like a specific denomination (old school mmos) of mmo and anything that deviates is not to your standard.
We also do have quite a few mmos to look forward to. But, mmos take time. So while we might not have much to look forward to as far as brand new mmos for 2015. We do have some good expansions to hold us over till the next tier of mmos come out. The MMOs I'm speaking of are EQN, The Division, Blade & Soul, Black Desert, SC and etc. It's probably safe to say we will see some announcements of a new mmo or two by the end of the year.
The problem is, while they may look different or add a few new tricks and mechanics, most of these many games you are talking about are built on the same foundation. Its the same design philosophy of convenience dominating this genre. Its the same thing in EQN and most of those upcoming titles you mentioned, now including Black Desert which has drastically changed their previous unique design to add it to the stack of casual titles.
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but my opinion is based on the numbers. Contrary to what they tell you, F2P is not the sign of a successful game over here in the West.
What you think of these mmos and their mechanics is really subjective and irrelevant. The point I was making a rebuttal to was that you said that there were no big new mmos on the horizon. Which I argued with upcoming mmos. You keep speaking of these numbers. But, yet you have not produced any evidence besides talking about it.
F2P is all the evidence you need. How many games are still able to survive on subscription. You can count them on one hand.
As to the games you mentioned, the fact that you had to reference a console game, two rehashed eastern titles, and two games with no official ETA, speaks volumes.
F2P does not equal unsuccessful. It's just another payment model. It works. The most played game LoL is F2P. Guess that means it's on life support.
As for the red. All these mmos have more code in the log in screen and launcher then Pantheon has all together lol. You are bringing a spoon to a gun fight lol.
Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon.
Your 'metrics' must be a bit off mate, because I won't be buying it.
And I doubt that I am anywhere near the only EQ/EQ2/Vanguard player that won't be funding Brad's next parking lot staff meeting.
People here seem to forget how rabid the MMO community it. The internet doesn't forget and it doesn't care. If the game's Alpha/Beta/Launch aren't flawless, Brad is going to be ripped a new arsehole. Heck, this is the MMO comunity we are dealing with, so each and every little feature will be scrutinised, flamed and cried about (along with a unhealthy dose of Kool-Aid guzzling). And it isn't just Pantheon that is, or will, be under the microscope. Brad himself has generated a lot of the negativity attached to the project (clueless KickStarter campaign, misappropriation of funds etc.). Misplaced hero-worship can only deflect so much, and negativity sticks like shit to a blanket. And Brad's blanket, much like Vanguard, is too brown.
In this day and age Pantheon has more chance of failing than succeeding. Hopefully, for fans of this project at least, the game will settle into its own little niche and stay solvent, but to expect any more is moving into pie in the sky territory.
I think you are making this too much about Brad and not enough about Visionary Realms and Pantheon Alpha 1 status. Anything other, is just people trying to side track w/drama.
Also, anyone parading around the idea that EverQuest III will only have 80k Patrons after a few years? Is just someone who has not taken the time to read what this game is, and where it is at currently^, and what has been done over the past months.
Again, no amount of backdrop drama can take away the work done over the last 8 months.
Understand, my metrics are solid.
Here is some more free data: There are more than 7 million disgruntled MMO gamers currently in limbo and/or occasionally jacking in to their games. (If just 2% of those find their way to Pantheon for 4 to 7 years?)
Not just about Pantheon, but other games as well. I offered my free knowledge as a show of support for Visionary Realms. I don't doubt they will be announcing some Partner soon enough. If I had the 50 million to fund 4 years of development, I would invest it instantly. Easy returns on my investment if I want to wait 6 years. I know the secret sauce when I see it. This game in 12 years could be close to making a billion dollars in revenues. It is the difference of 3 years of development, or 4. It is all about time invested.
Watch & learn.
The funny thing is the disgruntled mmo gamers you are speaking of are tired of whats out because it's all the same to them. And they are looking for the next gen mmo that will push boundaries and show them something they've never seen before. This mmo is bringing back 1999. This is not moving the genre forward. It's niche. That's ok, but I bet you all your fake numbers that majority of those "disgruntled" mmo gamers are not going to be peeing their pants in excitement over MMO Pantheon: Windows 95 edition.
Originally posted by Dullahan Ya, but you still back landmark and EQ Next and havent come to the realization that modern MMOs are only moving in the wrong direction. I give you another year or two to change your tune, and lucky for you that is when Pantheon is scheduled to launch.
Basically, if the mmo genre isn't going the direction you want it to. It is the wrong direction? Got it.
Its the wrong direction because, currently, the vast majority are catering to one demographic instead of multiple demographics. Oversaturation. Whats more important than my opinion on the matter is the number of struggling games out there that spent 100s of millions to emulate rather than diversify and innovate. Now look how many big MMOs are on the horizon. Investors don't want to touch this genre with a 10 foot pole.
Finally things are looking up as teams are coming together to create niche games. Its going to be tough, as you can see in the case of Pantheon and numerous other indie games, but eventually a few of them will have success and this genre can move forward once again.
You make interesting points. But, I think you are wrong. I will explain respectfully. MMOs are not like regular games that after 6 months are a memory and let's go to the next new single player game or shooter. They last usually at least 5+ years. In the last 5 years we have had a large influx of new mmos. Some call them WoW clones. But, I think they give quite a bit diversity among a genre that has pretty specific staples.
That being said. The market is flooded with mmos atm. Which isn't a bad thing. We have that choice of different mmos as you suggest we don't. More so then we ever have. And many mmos trying new things like The Division, StarCitizen, Destiny and more action combat mmos like Tera. The problem really lies in this. What you really mean to say is that you like a specific denomination (old school mmos) of mmo and anything that deviates is not to your standard.
We also do have quite a few mmos to look forward to. But, mmos take time. So while we might not have much to look forward to as far as brand new mmos for 2015. We do have some good expansions to hold us over till the next tier of mmos come out. The MMOs I'm speaking of are EQN, The Division, Blade & Soul, Black Desert, SC and etc. It's probably safe to say we will see some announcements of a new mmo or two by the end of the year.
The problem is, while they may look different or add a few new tricks and mechanics, most of these many games you are talking about are built on the same foundation. Its the same design philosophy of convenience dominating this genre. Its the same thing in EQN and most of those upcoming titles you mentioned, now including Black Desert which has drastically changed their previous unique design to add it to the stack of casual titles.
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but my opinion is based on the numbers. Contrary to what they tell you, F2P is not the sign of a successful game over here in the West.
What you think of these mmos and their mechanics is really subjective and irrelevant. The point I was making a rebuttal to was that you said that there were no big new mmos on the horizon. Which I argued with upcoming mmos. You keep speaking of these numbers. But, yet you have not produced any evidence besides talking about it.
F2P is all the evidence you need. How many games are still able to survive on subscription. You can count them on one hand.
As to the games you mentioned, the fact that you had to reference a console game, two rehashed eastern titles, and two games with no official ETA, speaks volumes.
F2P does not equal unsuccessful. It's just another payment model. It works. The most played game LoL is F2P. Guess that means it's on life support.
As for the red. All these mmos have more code in the log in screen and launcher then Pantheon has all together lol. You are bringing a spoon to a gun fight lol.
Argues F2P for MMOs by referencing a MOBA, talks about a spoon in a gunfight. The irony.
Originally posted by Dullahan Ya, but you still back landmark and EQ Next and havent come to the realization that modern MMOs are only moving in the wrong direction. I give you another year or two to change your tune, and lucky for you that is when Pantheon is scheduled to launch.
Basically, if the mmo genre isn't going the direction you want it to. It is the wrong direction? Got it.
Its the wrong direction because, currently, the vast majority are catering to one demographic instead of multiple demographics. Oversaturation. Whats more important than my opinion on the matter is the number of struggling games out there that spent 100s of millions to emulate rather than diversify and innovate. Now look how many big MMOs are on the horizon. Investors don't want to touch this genre with a 10 foot pole.
Finally things are looking up as teams are coming together to create niche games. Its going to be tough, as you can see in the case of Pantheon and numerous other indie games, but eventually a few of them will have success and this genre can move forward once again.
You make interesting points. But, I think you are wrong. I will explain respectfully. MMOs are not like regular games that after 6 months are a memory and let's go to the next new single player game or shooter. They last usually at least 5+ years. In the last 5 years we have had a large influx of new mmos. Some call them WoW clones. But, I think they give quite a bit diversity among a genre that has pretty specific staples.
That being said. The market is flooded with mmos atm. Which isn't a bad thing. We have that choice of different mmos as you suggest we don't. More so then we ever have. And many mmos trying new things like The Division, StarCitizen, Destiny and more action combat mmos like Tera. The problem really lies in this. What you really mean to say is that you like a specific denomination (old school mmos) of mmo and anything that deviates is not to your standard.
We also do have quite a few mmos to look forward to. But, mmos take time. So while we might not have much to look forward to as far as brand new mmos for 2015. We do have some good expansions to hold us over till the next tier of mmos come out. The MMOs I'm speaking of are EQN, The Division, Blade & Soul, Black Desert, SC and etc. It's probably safe to say we will see some announcements of a new mmo or two by the end of the year.
The problem is, while they may look different or add a few new tricks and mechanics, most of these many games you are talking about are built on the same foundation. Its the same design philosophy of convenience dominating this genre. Its the same thing in EQN and most of those upcoming titles you mentioned, now including Black Desert which has drastically changed their previous unique design to add it to the stack of casual titles.
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but my opinion is based on the numbers. Contrary to what they tell you, F2P is not the sign of a successful game over here in the West.
What you think of these mmos and their mechanics is really subjective and irrelevant. The point I was making a rebuttal to was that you said that there were no big new mmos on the horizon. Which I argued with upcoming mmos. You keep speaking of these numbers. But, yet you have not produced any evidence besides talking about it.
F2P is all the evidence you need. How many games are still able to survive on subscription. You can count them on one hand.
As to the games you mentioned, the fact that you had to reference a console game, two rehashed eastern titles, and two games with no official ETA, speaks volumes.
F2P does not equal unsuccessful. It's just another payment model. It works. The most played game LoL is F2P. Guess that means it's on life support.
As for the red. All these mmos have more code in the log in screen and launcher then Pantheon has all together lol. You are bringing a spoon to a gun fight lol.
Argues F2P for MMOs by referencing a MOBA, talks about a spoon in a gunfight. The irony.
There are plenty of F2P mmos currently out there doing very well. Some even better then most P2P mmos. From someone claiming to know the pulse of mmos. I would think you would know this and I wouldn't have to point it out. I just gave one extreme example. Following your extreme depiction of F2P.
BTW, I'm ok with F2P. But, I would always prefer P2P followed by B2P. But, unlike you I am not blinded by fandom and possibly ignoranc to cloud my perspective on facts.
I have no problem with F2P as a model for games designed around the model. In general, MMOs are content driven and progression based, so trying to convert one to F2P is about as viable as a buffet in a 5 star restaurant.
Originally posted by Dullahan I have no problem with F2P as a model for games designed around the model. In general, MMOs are content driven and progression based, so trying to convert one to F2P is about as viable as a buffet in a 5 star restaurant.
It will reach the old WoW Subscription Numbers+ex Eq Numbers since everyone that played WoW will want to play Pantheon the more Hardcore Version of WoW ....Muahahahah there you have it ..and soon Brad will be no1 richest guy on Earth.With an estimated fortune of 100Billion. And he will send me 1 Billion cause i said so today. Thank you ....Remember this post.
Originally posted by Dullahan Ya, but you still back landmark and EQ Next and havent come to the realization that modern MMOs are only moving in the wrong direction. I give you another year or two to change your tune, and lucky for you that is when Pantheon is scheduled to launch.
Basically, if the mmo genre isn't going the direction you want it to. It is the wrong direction? Got it.
Its the wrong direction because, currently, the vast majority are catering to one demographic instead of multiple demographics. Oversaturation. Whats more important than my opinion on the matter is the number of struggling games out there that spent 100s of millions to emulate rather than diversify and innovate. Now look how many big MMOs are on the horizon. Investors don't want to touch this genre with a 10 foot pole.
Finally things are looking up as teams are coming together to create niche games. Its going to be tough, as you can see in the case of Pantheon and numerous other indie games, but eventually a few of them will have success and this genre can move forward once again.
You make interesting points. But, I think you are wrong. I will explain respectfully. MMOs are not like regular games that after 6 months are a memory and let's go to the next new single player game or shooter. They last usually at least 5+ years. In the last 5 years we have had a large influx of new mmos. Some call them WoW clones. But, I think they give quite a bit diversity among a genre that has pretty specific staples.
That being said. The market is flooded with mmos atm. Which isn't a bad thing. We have that choice of different mmos as you suggest we don't. More so then we ever have. And many mmos trying new things like The Division, StarCitizen, Destiny and more action combat mmos like Tera. The problem really lies in this. What you really mean to say is that you like a specific denomination (old school mmos) of mmo and anything that deviates is not to your standard.
We also do have quite a few mmos to look forward to. But, mmos take time. So while we might not have much to look forward to as far as brand new mmos for 2015. We do have some good expansions to hold us over till the next tier of mmos come out. The MMOs I'm speaking of are EQN, The Division, Blade & Soul, Black Desert, SC and etc. It's probably safe to say we will see some announcements of a new mmo or two by the end of the year.
The problem is, while they may look different or add a few new tricks and mechanics, most of these many games you are talking about are built on the same foundation. Its the same design philosophy of convenience dominating this genre. Its the same thing in EQN and most of those upcoming titles you mentioned, now including Black Desert which has drastically changed their previous unique design to add it to the stack of casual titles.
You are entitled to think whatever you want, but my opinion is based on the numbers. Contrary to what they tell you, F2P is not the sign of a successful game over here in the West.
What you think of these mmos and their mechanics is really subjective and irrelevant. The point I was making a rebuttal to was that you said that there were no big new mmos on the horizon. Which I argued with upcoming mmos. You keep speaking of these numbers. But, yet you have not produced any evidence besides talking about it.
eek.
It is obvious, that you do not understand that the "Market" is getting older. And more discernable and frugal and demanding. So look back to the hey days of say 2006-9? And look Today, where are all those WoW, EQ, EQ2, VG, War, players now?
More importantly:
Where are those players being served?
Who is serving this crowd?
Can I see the menu please?
What we call the MMo Space is a vast matrix of unknowns, across many platforms and price schemes, etc. The demographics and metrics are tough, even when had is tough to understand it as-a-whole across all platforms, all the time.
It is more simplistically explained as easy as seeing the juggernaught / monopolistic World of Warcraft being broken up, like the baby bells. Into many smaller sub-cultures and communities. Segments.
These "segments of the market" are not niche.
THAT is now the state of the Market / MMo space. But please understand (& John Smedley forgets this entirely) that MMORPG are indeed a niche market of MMOs. That MMORPG are now just a small segment of the MMO space and that nearly the same amount of patron exist within the MMORPG space, than back in 2009, they just are no being served. So most don't subscribe anymore. Companies like SOE/TRION just have been unable to retain them, as Smedley has pushed for more MMO style games. (ie: Dota)
Within the MMORPG sphere, who other than Blizzard/WoW are still producing a quality MMORPGs. There needs to be a new story world in the MMORPG market, because the lands of Norrath, Azeroth, Middle Earth are dying out. (ie: Role Playing Games). That is why Pantheon, Crowfall and Shroud will each take on a couple hundred thousand their sophomore years.
Subscription based MMORPG have not died out, those making them turned their development towards MMO where investments, get a quicker return. While in contrast, a MMORPG take longer to build, but their ROI are greater. They caveat is, they also must be made with QUALITY, for that business model to work. And when the developer thinks his product is QUALITY, but the public does not? Is when they turn to F2P and change their business model from earning the money back, to outright selling part of the games as trinkets, for in-game favors. Hopefully getting their ROI back as quickly as possible, before the games lack of depth is found out, or people get hooked on a different F2P from theirs.
I only see a few holding on to the idea of "MMORPG". (Pantheon, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar, etc.).
Subscribers where not looking for a "World shattering new experiences", just one that has depth and richness and meaning. That is the call, that is what their dollars are worth to them. Reach a certain threshold of quality and boom. Another Baby Bell.
If they want "life shattering play", adults will jack into Battlefront/Battlefield and go full retard. They are not going to look for that in an MMORPG, it would be stupid to do so. Rolling the dice has nothing to do with point and shoot, or twitch. Dumb is dumb and that is what the oldschool has been telling SOE and others.
There are thousands of MMOs, very few MMORPGs.
A MMO can be any online game, (Shoots & Ladders online), but do understand that most adults care only about MMORPGs and are not looking for just any mmo, but a mmo rpg.
This confusion is due in part to the owner of MMORPG.com trying to increase revenues by marketing mainly MMO on this site & not MMORPGs. Kinda defeats the legitimacy & community of this site. But you can see how someone might come here looking for a MMORPG, see the add for Mirror Online and then think they are playing a roleplaying game. Noobie move and intended. Ironically, this site is a marketing ploy, owned/manged by a F2P dealer. You will never see a full review of Mirror Online, but this site will take will push these advertisement to try and confuse the MMORPG buyer.
There are 7 million Subscribers, in limbo not subscribing to anything. They don't want McDonald's anymore, they want an upscale menu. Everyone here can see how it is working out. There is going to be many Baby Bells..
Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon.
Your 'metrics' must be a bit off mate, because I won't be buying it.
And I doubt that I am anywhere near the only EQ/EQ2/Vanguard player that won't be funding Brad's next parking lot staff meeting.
People here seem to forget how rabid the MMO community it. The internet doesn't forget and it doesn't care. If the game's Alpha/Beta/Launch aren't flawless, Brad is going to be ripped a new arsehole. Heck, this is the MMO comunity we are dealing with, so each and every little feature will be scrutinised, flamed and cried about (along with a unhealthy dose of Kool-Aid guzzling). And it isn't just Pantheon that is, or will, be under the microscope. Brad himself has generated a lot of the negativity attached to the project (clueless KickStarter campaign, misappropriation of funds etc.). Misplaced hero-worship can only deflect so much, and negativity sticks like shit to a blanket. And Brad's blanket, much like Vanguard, is too brown.
In this day and age Pantheon has more chance of failing than succeeding. Hopefully, for fans of this project at least, the game will settle into its own little niche and stay solvent, but to expect any more is moving into pie in the sky territory.
I think you are making this too much about Brad and not enough about Visionary Realms and Pantheon Alpha 1 status. Anything other, is just people trying to side track w/drama.
Also, anyone parading around the idea that EverQuest III will only have 80k Patrons after a few years? Is just someone who has not taken the time to read what this game is, and where it is at currently^, and what has been done over the past months.
Again, no amount of backdrop drama can take away the work done over the last 8 months.
Understand, my metrics are solid.
Here is some more free data: There are more than 7 million disgruntled MMO gamers currently in limbo and/or occasionally jacking in to their games. (If just 2% of those find their way to Pantheon for 4 to 7 years?)
Not just about Pantheon, but other games as well. I offered my free knowledge as a show of support for Visionary Realms. I don't doubt they will be announcing some Partner soon enough. If I had the 50 million to fund 4 years of development, I would invest it instantly. Easy returns on my investment if I want to wait 6 years. I know the secret sauce when I see it. This game in 12 years could be close to making a billion dollars in revenues. It is the difference of 3 years of development, or 4. It is all about time invested.
Watch & learn.
You say your metrics are solid after stating that "Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon. " really?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most games have trouble holding onto the 15 dollar a month with large crowds of people, a well known studio, a well known franchise, polish and periodic updates. How in the world do people think a semi indie studio is going to be able to charge 25 dollars.
First not only the higher sub would turn people away, hell most studios have trouble justifying the 15 dollars let alone an almost 75% increase on top of that. At that rate why not just play P99 and be done with it?
Second raising the sub rate to 25 dollars would create such a shockwave throughout the community that you so would not want. Claims of greed, expectations of upgrades at the very least monthly (at the rate i'm paying you better have something new every month or i'm gone) , slippery slopes (we already have the Collector edition price hike going on, you want the subs to do that to?) and as soon as something else came out it wouldn't take much for someone to say, you can get the same and more than this other company at nearly half the cost (15 dollars), you'd be creating such an easy marketing situation for others companies to make the going rate look great and steal your current playerbase.
I get it you like the game, but wanting the subs to go to 25 dollars a month and actually people paying that is somewhat dangerous, right now it stays at 15 dollars as thats expected, why anyone wants to pay more for something you can get for less, I have no idea. We dont' even know if the quality of the game supports the 15 dollars a month let alone if it would warrant an increase of that amount
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon.
Your 'metrics' must be a bit off mate, because I won't be buying it.
And I doubt that I am anywhere near the only EQ/EQ2/Vanguard player that won't be funding Brad's next parking lot staff meeting.
People here seem to forget how rabid the MMO community it. The internet doesn't forget and it doesn't care. If the game's Alpha/Beta/Launch aren't flawless, Brad is going to be ripped a new arsehole. Heck, this is the MMO comunity we are dealing with, so each and every little feature will be scrutinised, flamed and cried about (along with a unhealthy dose of Kool-Aid guzzling). And it isn't just Pantheon that is, or will, be under the microscope. Brad himself has generated a lot of the negativity attached to the project (clueless KickStarter campaign, misappropriation of funds etc.). Misplaced hero-worship can only deflect so much, and negativity sticks like shit to a blanket. And Brad's blanket, much like Vanguard, is too brown.
In this day and age Pantheon has more chance of failing than succeeding. Hopefully, for fans of this project at least, the game will settle into its own little niche and stay solvent, but to expect any more is moving into pie in the sky territory.
I think you are making this too much about Brad and not enough about Visionary Realms and Pantheon Alpha 1 status. Anything other, is just people trying to side track w/drama.
Also, anyone parading around the idea that EverQuest III will only have 80k Patrons after a few years? Is just someone who has not taken the time to read what this game is, and where it is at currently^, and what has been done over the past months.
Again, no amount of backdrop drama can take away the work done over the last 8 months.
Understand, my metrics are solid.
Here is some more free data: There are more than 7 million disgruntled MMO gamers currently in limbo and/or occasionally jacking in to their games. (If just 2% of those find their way to Pantheon for 4 to 7 years?)
Not just about Pantheon, but other games as well. I offered my free knowledge as a show of support for Visionary Realms. I don't doubt they will be announcing some Partner soon enough. If I had the 50 million to fund 4 years of development, I would invest it instantly. Easy returns on my investment if I want to wait 6 years. I know the secret sauce when I see it. This game in 12 years could be close to making a billion dollars in revenues. It is the difference of 3 years of development, or 4. It is all about time invested.
Watch & learn.
The funny thing is the disgruntled mmo gamers you are speaking of are tired of whats out because it's all the same to them. And they are looking for the next gen mmo that will push boundaries and show them something they've never seen before. This mmo is bringing back 1999. This is not moving the genre forward. It's niche. That's ok, but I bet you all your fake numbers that majority of those "disgruntled" mmo gamers are not going to be peeing their pants in excitement over MMO Pantheon: Windows 95 edition.
Define "Never seen before."
Correct, the MMORPG market consist of utter crap right now. And has for nearly 10 years. (Less money per person being spent, per year.)
Look around. How old are you and when did you start playing MMORPGs? What demographic are you truly and do you represent that demographics as a median?
To the demographic that we (myself) are speaking (old School AD&D/UO/EQ/AC/SWG/EQ2/EVE & early WoW players.), that really nothing but Darkfall or Mortal Online has really pushed the boundaries of MMORPGs.
*(If anything games developers like DICE are moving ever so close to larger & larger worlds. Add a $20 per month subscription to Battlefield 4 ?? and you can see where DICE can go with that? )
Making a wide-spectrum game means you also have to listen to the cries, pleas, and complaints of Millions of players. You have to cater to them all. It is much more prudent and easier, richer and intimate when you have a more tight-knit community (niche).
Free to Play teenagers and Young Adults are not going to be able to afford pantheon. They will not be part of the 250k + or so projected to play it. The oldguard is a strong market, they just have been forgotten. Quality is the first concern, after that their reservations & wallets don't matter.
Honestly, how does a 40 year old not drop $300/year on on Hobby, when He just bought his two kids iPhones for their B-days.
See?
Once again why are you attempting to speak for the Oldguard, or pretend to perceive to know, what they want?
EQn style of game is not what they are looking for, EQ3 is. Joe Public MMO player has no idea what oldschool is, has never played Dungeon & Dragons, or have ever had to play a role. You do not seem to be able to follow, or understand the demographics involved. I am trying to help.
Many active & semi-active 32+ year olds have a strong college following whom game regularly, with their 10 - 3,000 (guild) buddies. These are what we call weekend warriors. And they are the most lucrative of all markets.
The MM0-space/Market houses all kinds of secrets. Knowing pecking order and who follows who, is a key advantage to learning what data means. That is why I say "Watch & Learn". Because your education is not going to take a days, but years.
You confuse a MMO player and a MMORPG player too much. It is OK to call them niche, if need be. Just know what it means. It is not hard to understand, how only a scant few of the 7 million who are currently in Limbo looking, will find their way to Pantheon. Understand that WoW doesn't exist anymore. (metaphorically)
Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon.
Your 'metrics' must be a bit off mate, because I won't be buying it.
And I doubt that I am anywhere near the only EQ/EQ2/Vanguard player that won't be funding Brad's next parking lot staff meeting.
People here seem to forget how rabid the MMO community it. The internet doesn't forget and it doesn't care. If the game's Alpha/Beta/Launch aren't flawless, Brad is going to be ripped a new arsehole. Heck, this is the MMO comunity we are dealing with, so each and every little feature will be scrutinised, flamed and cried about (along with a unhealthy dose of Kool-Aid guzzling). And it isn't just Pantheon that is, or will, be under the microscope. Brad himself has generated a lot of the negativity attached to the project (clueless KickStarter campaign, misappropriation of funds etc.). Misplaced hero-worship can only deflect so much, and negativity sticks like shit to a blanket. And Brad's blanket, much like Vanguard, is too brown.
In this day and age Pantheon has more chance of failing than succeeding. Hopefully, for fans of this project at least, the game will settle into its own little niche and stay solvent, but to expect any more is moving into pie in the sky territory.
I think you are making this too much about Brad and not enough about Visionary Realms and Pantheon Alpha 1 status. Anything other, is just people trying to side track w/drama.
Also, anyone parading around the idea that EverQuest III will only have 80k Patrons after a few years? Is just someone who has not taken the time to read what this game is, and where it is at currently^, and what has been done over the past months.
Again, no amount of backdrop drama can take away the work done over the last 8 months.
Understand, my metrics are solid.
Here is some more free data: There are more than 7 million disgruntled MMO gamers currently in limbo and/or occasionally jacking in to their games. (If just 2% of those find their way to Pantheon for 4 to 7 years?)
Not just about Pantheon, but other games as well. I offered my free knowledge as a show of support for Visionary Realms. I don't doubt they will be announcing some Partner soon enough. If I had the 50 million to fund 4 years of development, I would invest it instantly. Easy returns on my investment if I want to wait 6 years. I know the secret sauce when I see it. This game in 12 years could be close to making a billion dollars in revenues. It is the difference of 3 years of development, or 4. It is all about time invested.
Watch & learn.
You say your metrics are solid after stating that "Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon. " really?
Words mean things. I said "buy into Pantheon". Not buy the game.
Meaning (if you didn't understand) is that they will buy into and like the idea of Pantheon. But not necessarily become a paying Patron. It will weigh on them, but will debate heavily if they want to make the lifestyle change to play it.
Go back and read the original, don't take it out of context please.
Most games have trouble holding onto the 15 dollar a month with large crowds of people, a well known studio, a well known franchise, polish and periodic updates. How in the world do people think a semi indie studio is going to be able to charge 25 dollars.
First not only the higher sub would turn people away, hell most studios have trouble justifying the 15 dollars let alone an almost 75% increase on top of that. At that rate why not just play P99 and be done with it?
Second raising the sub rate to 25 dollars would create such a shockwave throughout the community that you so would not want. Claims of greed, expectations of upgrades at the very least monthly (at the rate i'm paying you better have something new every month or i'm gone) , slippery slopes (we already have the Collector edition price hike going on, you want the subs to do that to?) and as soon as something else came out it wouldn't take much for someone to say, you can get the same and more than this other company at nearly half the cost (15 dollars), you'd be creating such an easy marketing situation for others companies to make the going rate look great and steal your current playerbase.
I get it you like the game, but wanting the subs to go to 25 dollars a month and actually people paying that is somewhat dangerous, right now it stays at 15 dollars as thats expected, why anyone wants to pay more for something you can get for less, I have no idea. We dont' even know if the quality of the game supports the 15 dollars a month let alone if it would warrant an increase of that amount
While I think saying at $15 sub is best, and I agree with most of what you said up top, you are missing the crux of the opposing argument. No one is offering a similar alternative to the game they are creating. While there are many online games, the tenets and features for Pantheon would make it a game you can't just "get for less."
Most games have trouble holding onto the 15 dollar a month with large crowds of people, a well known studio, a well known franchise, polish and periodic updates. How in the world do people think a semi indie studio is going to be able to charge 25 dollars.
First not only the higher sub would turn people away, hell most studios have trouble justifying the 15 dollars let alone an almost 75% increase on top of that. At that rate why not just play P99 and be done with it?
Second raising the sub rate to 25 dollars would create such a shockwave throughout the community that you so would not want. Claims of greed, expectations of upgrades at the very least monthly (at the rate i'm paying you better have something new every month or i'm gone) , slippery slopes (we already have the Collector edition price hike going on, you want the subs to do that to?) and as soon as something else came out it wouldn't take much for someone to say, you can get the same and more than this other company at nearly half the cost (15 dollars), you'd be creating such an easy marketing situation for others companies to make the going rate look great and steal your current playerbase.
I get it you like the game, but wanting the subs to go to 25 dollars a month and actually people paying that is somewhat dangerous, right now it stays at 15 dollars as thats expected, why anyone wants to pay more for something you can get for less, I have no idea. We dont' even know if the quality of the game supports the 15 dollars a month let alone if it would warrant an increase of that amount
Name "most games".?
You are trying to compare today's current games with a $25/month sub and it just doesn't work. There is NOT a game today, that is worthy of a $300/year price tag. You have to build it.
You are trying to compare today's current games with a $25/month sub and it just doesn't work. There is NOT a game today, that is worthy of a $300/year price tag. You have to build it.
Who are you to say NO GAME is worth $300/year currently?
You are trying to compare today's current games with a $25/month sub and it just doesn't work. There is NOT a game today, that is worthy of a $300/year price tag. You have to build it.
Who are you to say NO GAME is worth $300/year currently?
Because they don't exist !!
And that is because many of these "big name" developers were trying to dethrone WoW using ego, instead of with product.
You are trying to compare today's current games with a $25/month sub and it just doesn't work. There is NOT a game today, that is worthy of a $300/year price tag. You have to build it.
Who are you to say NO GAME is worth $300/year currently?
Because they don't exist !!
And that is because many of these "big name" developers were trying to dethrone WoW using ego, instead of with product.
Most games have trouble holding onto the 15 dollar a month with large crowds of people, a well known studio, a well known franchise, polish and periodic updates. How in the world do people think a semi indie studio is going to be able to charge 25 dollars.
First not only the higher sub would turn people away, hell most studios have trouble justifying the 15 dollars let alone an almost 75% increase on top of that. At that rate why not just play P99 and be done with it?
Second raising the sub rate to 25 dollars would create such a shockwave throughout the community that you so would not want. Claims of greed, expectations of upgrades at the very least monthly (at the rate i'm paying you better have something new every month or i'm gone) , slippery slopes (we already have the Collector edition price hike going on, you want the subs to do that to?) and as soon as something else came out it wouldn't take much for someone to say, you can get the same and more than this other company at nearly half the cost (15 dollars), you'd be creating such an easy marketing situation for others companies to make the going rate look great and steal your current playerbase.
I get it you like the game, but wanting the subs to go to 25 dollars a month and actually people paying that is somewhat dangerous, right now it stays at 15 dollars as thats expected, why anyone wants to pay more for something you can get for less, I have no idea. We dont' even know if the quality of the game supports the 15 dollars a month let alone if it would warrant an increase of that amount
While I think saying at $15 sub is best, and I agree with most of what you said up top, you are missing the crux of the opposing argument. No one is offering a similar alternative to the game they are creating. While there are many online games, the tenets and features for Pantheon would make it a game you can't just "get for less."
I looked at that site and it's features, it has a lot of good features and I think if they pull it off it will be a great game, but I don't see anything that warrants such a price hike as 15 to 25, 17. 18...maybe and this is a big maybe 19, but not 25. Most of the features are basic features:
- A classic take on epic MMO adventure.
This is normal PR so pointless
- Enjoy a Lore-rich and deeply complex world where environmental storytelling is central.
Again more PR, everyone says this
- An MMO developed by gamers who aren't afraid to target an audience of like-minded gamers.
Again PR
- A focus on exploration, adventure, and combat.
What game doesn't say this?
- Finally, an MMORPG for players wanting a challenging and rewarding experience. No risk, no reward.
PR, PR, PR
- Explore the world of Terminus as you see fit, on the beaten path or far off of it – just don’t say we didn't warn you!
This denotes exploration, unless your game is a tunnel then this is something you can say, you can get this in current EQ as well
- Harness the powers of ancient heroes, insidious enemies and even the Celestials to augment your own knowledge and abilities.
Skills, every MMORPG pretty much has those
- Play classes that have meaningful and defined roles such as Tank, Healer, DPS or Utility (crowd and encounter control). Class identity and group interdependability is key!
Class based system, EQ style
- Choose from a variety of races to play, delve into their epic back-stories and learn of the Celestials who may have been brought to Terminus with them.
We have multiple races, every MMORPG has at least a few
- Group-focused, intensely social game play using a class based system to encourage teamwork.
We have grouping, okay I'll give you this most newer games has solo as their primary, but being focused on group doesn't really indicate a need for such a price hike
- A heavy focus on meaningful character progression that prioritizes the advancement of player power and prestige.
We focus on your characters abilities and advancement (again nothing really here that would need a price hike)
- Questing that’s optional, not the primary means of character advancement.
Unless this is more fleshed out, this means to me you can grind mobs for advancement (levels and such), I can do this in EQ which is free(ish)
- Quests that are meaningful, challenging, and rewarding.
uh, needs fleshing out what this means otherwise...PR
- Engage in combat that will test you and your party, requiring strategy and preparation.
Our content needs groups (already said that above and thats really PR there, we need more info on this)
- Train and use a wide variety of skills as part of your character’s growth as you level up.
We have levels, as you gain levels you learn new skills...see many other games (SW:TOR for one has this setup)
- Limited and class based teleportation may get you close, but in order to reach many destinations you will have to traverse the realm-scarred lands of Terminus through the use of your own two feet, on the back of your mighty steed or even across the seas themselves.
We have fast travel...is this player based or game based, if it's player based this is somewhat better if it's game based, this is WoW style transport
- Quickly equip situational gear as you move from one climate to the next.
Okay this is intersting, but may be considered a minus by some as they will feel the need to carry around multiple sets of equipment as their group demands. lets hope everyone has all the required sets (kind of reminds me of the key system in EQ, except it's a peice of equipment instead of a...progress unlock)
- An economy that is largely player driven.
Every MMORPG claims this, none have charged more than 15 dollars
- Visible loot. If you see an NPC wielding a weapon, you should be able to loot it off of their fallen body.
Well one would hope this was the case, surprising it doesn't, I wouldn't pay an extra 10 dollars a month though to get the monster to drop the loot they are holding, i'd expect my game to do that.
- Most items that are looted from NPCs will be tradeable.
um...well okay thats nothing new, most items in any MMRORPG are tradeable.
- Dual targeting. Attack your target while healing your allies.
EQ already have this, target of target, if i target my friend and he is targeting the enemy, when i cast heal, it heals him, if i use an attack spell it hits the enemy
- Terminus is a world where instancing is the exception not the rule.
Less instancing, good but not something that worth a 10 dollar increase on subs. This should come standard and used to, for 15 dollars.
- Respect your surroundings, succumbing to death has its consequences.
More PR to make the game sound better, our world is dangerous be careful.
- Some spells can be modified to hit one or multiple targets, and you can decide on the fly.
This is interesting, will see how this develops
- Terminus is a world where Factions and Alignments matter. Ogres don’t belong in an Elven city (and so as not to offend the Ogre Rights Association, Elves don’t belong in an Ogre city either.)
Factions, see EQ, and EQ2, both have no fee, nothing here (don't hate this feature btw, i do like it)
- Horizontal character growth, with fewer levels and more meaningful gains per level.
This needs to be fleshed out more, what does this mean, by itself it's not much, as far as i can tell this is a push for Alternate Advancement (AA for short), EQ already has AA as one of their things
- Community feedback helps drive decisions made. We want to hear your voice.
PR stuff
- The game will run on PC, Mac, and possibly other platforms in the future.
um this would be a minus if it didn't
I should note i'm interested in this game and I would like to play it but looking at the feature list (I don't care what they say there ideas are, I care what they say the game will have) I can't honestly justify a hike of nearly 75%, I might see my way up to 17, maybe 18 but beyond that just seems unreasonable, sometimes for me thats a new game, in two months they would have to bring out about 60 hours worth of content just to justify that and in a time period where MMOs are getting cheaper to play not more expensive this just seems like a bad move to me.
Before anyone jumps me remember most people are going to look at the game at it's features and watch a video, then look at the cost and as soon as they see 25 dollars, you are likely to make them balk at that price. Again the market isn't used to a 75% sudden increase, if you are going to increase at all it needs to go slowly.
I'm not against the game, nor do I think it will be bad, i think at 15 dollars is a good price if you are interested, but I do feel there isn't enough here to warrant a price increase, but this is all moot because I don't see anything saying it's 25 dollars, so i'll admit I was bored and felt like discussing but at the end is kind of pointless until we get a price point.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Classifying design tenets as merely PR is lol-worthy. Its pretty specific without getting into TL;DR territory on an already lengthy game description page. Again, I'm not saying I think the game should raise the sub, but its not for a lack of features. What they are proposing is basically the polar opposite of the themepark games currently on the market. It will not appeal to everyone, but for those of us who can't stomach modern shallow MMOs, something like this has been long awaited.
They are still a ways out, so there is still much to prove. I don't expect people to buy in at first glance, but I can tell you from listening to their developer round tables and seeing the most recent updates, my confidence in Pantheon has been rejuvenated.
Classifying design tenets as merely PR is lol-worthy. Its pretty specific without getting into TL;DR territory on an already lengthy game description page. Again, I'm not saying I think the game should raise the sub, but its not for a lack of features. What they are proposing is basically the polar opposite of the themepark games currently on the market. It will not appeal to everyone, but for those of us who can't stomach modern shallow MMOs, something like this has been long awaited.
They are still a ways out, so there is still much to prove. I don't expect people to buy in at first glance, but I can tell you from listening to their developer round tables and seeing the most recent updates, my confidence in Pantheon has been rejuvenated.
Well to be fair I didn't use the tenets I used the game feature section, but okay, it's not features, it's the feel (it feels like old school MMOs) and your not pushing for the increased sub fee, so i'm not really in disagreement with you on that front.
I guess I would have to see more than the couple of videos I saw on the page and a feature list that is currently provided to be convinced it's really all that, I am highly interested in this alignment system and what that gives. Although i have a feeling it's more of, if you are an ogre you are evil, if you are an elf you are good instead of actually choosing your alignment based on your actions.
I'll leave it at, what i see from the game right now I don't think it's worthy of the 25 dollars sub fee some are saying it's worth, i'd be more than willing to pluck down 15 dollars to see what it's all about though, and this is coming from someone who played EQ for 5 years, thats not to say i'm better than others but to state i'm coming from that same era of gaming and that i've played that style of game a long time, so generally in the same boat (asides from the whole can't stand later games bit)
PS. The name of my Barbarian Shaman was name Whilan. So you can see where I got my username from.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The alignment system will be similar to EQ. There will be tons of factions in Pantheon. They will be based on more than just your race. Your deity and class will also be involved. I'm sure there will be strong racial factions, but even in EQ you could go from amiable to dubious with certain factions just based on the deity and class you chose. Some factions held players of certain classes in even higher regard than others, while cities like Qeynos would attack a necromancer on site regardless of their race.
Beyond that, there will be many other factions. I haven't heard anything official, but they've mentioned city factions, mob factions, crafting factions, royalty factions and even player factions. The idea is to make player choices matter and have the world react to those decisions accordingly. This sort of thing has gone by the wayside in modern mmorpgs, but its one of those key ingredients in creating a virtual world.
There are a lot of delusional people in this thread.
I don't know where to start, I guess let's start with monthly subs:
I think it's a mistake for Pantheon to even consider charging a monthly sub as it's main (likely only outside of backers) source of revenue. Excepting them to charge more than the norm for AAA quality games which have development teams 50X as large as Pantheon's (with less meaningless positions) is pure insanity. Excepting them to charge on par at $15 a month is pretty ridiculous as well. Look at how poorly Pathfinder Online is doing right now and a lot of it is because they are charging a monthly sub. There is a reason more and more MMO developers are moving away from the subscription based model and going buy to play.
The game is already niche. The target demographic is people who played Everquest or Vanguard (probably around ~200k people). Then you have a million other factors that reduce that demographic further, for example a lot of people who played Everquest or Vanguard may have given up on the MMO genre entirely and aren't following anything related to the genre anymore, how exactly would you get the message out to them? What about the people (which are probably the vast majority) who aren't stuck in nostalgia land and moved on to newer video games?
And those stating that Vanguard didn't do well because it was released early and in a buggy state, well it was still a complete mess of a game with numerous bugs even to the point when it was shut down. I'm not sure why you would expect Pantheon to be any different when they have less programmers, even more amateurs, no budget for quality control, and a fan base that will tell them everything is fine even if the game deleted their hard drives after it was installed.
Pantheon doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay. The combat looks like it's copying Everquest all over again with slow tab target based gameplay and pretty much all the character and NPC models are taken directly from the Unity store, with often little cohesion in the art style. All of the "new" features I've heard proposed for Pantheon, like multi-colored mana, sound completely pointless and could even hurt enjoyment with needless complexity that adds zero depth to anything. Environmental art does look nice though, and they are using the Unity engine well.
There's also the poor management and possibly even downright fraudulent way they've been handling funding. We know for a fact as he admitted himself that Brad basically pocketted $47k (used towards his wife's medical bills apparently) of the funding AND he was paying himself "industry standard" on top of that. That's somewhere along the lines of $80k, the majority of the money Pantheon got within the first several months after the Kickstarter. The failed Kickstarter and the controversy around it will probably permanently hamper Pantheon's ability to secure any serious funding in the future, and unfortunately money from the very small fanbase it has now (update videos have less views that some of my youtube videos, and they are literally just gameplay videos I throw up - and that's with Pantheon advertising on major MMO gaming news sites like this one) isn't going to be enough to sustain development of Pantheon for 3 years before it officially releases.
If you want to be optimistic about Pantheon I would suggest being very cautious at the very least. Wait till you get a chance to play it before becoming so invested into it.
If Brad's estimate is true, the 20k-25k is pretty realistic and even that's somewhat optimistic. If we are going full on optimistic I would say the best Pantheon could ever hope for is 200k active players (subs if they use that, which they likely will, which is unfortunate). It's always going to be a niche game for a niche audience. I would be happy if it just succeeded enough to stay afloat and pay the developers decent wages, there is no need to put completely pointless exceptations on the game. You are just opening yourself up for disappointment.
There are a lot of delusional people in this thread.
I don't know where to start, I guess let's start with monthly subs:
I think it's a mistake for Pantheon to even consider charging a monthly sub as it's main (likely only outside of backers) source of revenue. Excepting them to charge more than the norm for AAA quality games which have development teams 50X as large as Pantheon's (with less meaningless positions) is pure insanity. Excepting them to charge on par at $15 a month is pretty ridiculous as well. Look at how poorly Pathfinder Online is doing right now and a lot of it is because they are charging a monthly sub. There is a reason more and more MMO developers are moving away from the subscription based model and going buy to play.
The game is already niche. The target demographic is people who played Everquest or Vanguard (probably around ~200k people). Then you have a million other factors that reduce that demographic further, for example a lot of people who played Everquest or Vanguard may have given up on the MMO genre entirely and aren't following anything related to the genre anymore, how exactly would you get the message out to them? What about the people (which are probably the vast majority) who aren't stuck in nostalgia land and moved on to newer video games?
And those stating that Vanguard didn't do well because it was released early and in a buggy state, well it was still a complete mess of a game with numerous bugs even to the point when it was shut down. I'm not sure why you would expect Pantheon to be any different when they have less programmers, even more amateurs, no budget for quality control, and a fan base that will tell them everything is fine even if the game deleted their hard drives after it was installed.
Pantheon doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay. The combat looks like it's copying Everquest all over again with slow tab target based gameplay and pretty much all the character and NPC models are taken directly from the Unity store, with often little cohesion in the art style. All of the "new" features I've heard proposed for Pantheon, like multi-colored mana, sound completely pointless and could even hurt enjoyment with needless complexity that adds zero depth to anything. Environmental art does look nice though, and they are using the Unity engine well.
There's also the poor management and possibly even downright fraudulent way they've been handling funding. We know for a fact as he admitted himself that Brad basically pocketted $47k (used towards his wife's medical bills apparently) of the funding AND he was paying himself "industry standard" on top of that. That's somewhere along the lines of $80k, the majority of the money Pantheon got within the first several months after the Kickstarter. The failed Kickstarter and the controversy around it will probably permanently hamper Pantheon's ability to secure any serious funding in the future, and unfortunately money from the very small fanbase it has now (update videos have less views that some of my youtube videos, and they are literally just gameplay videos I throw up - and that's with Pantheon advertising on major MMO gaming news sites like this one) isn't going to be enough to sustain development of Pantheon for 3 years before it officially releases.
If you want to be optimistic about Pantheon I would suggest being very cautious at the very least. Wait till you get a chance to play it before becoming so invested into it.
If Brad's estimate is true, the 20k-25k is pretty realistic and even that's somewhat optimistic. If we are going full on optimistic I would say the best Pantheon could ever hope for is 200k active players (subs if they use that, which they likely will, which is unfortunate). It's always going to be a niche game for a niche audience. I would be happy if it just succeeded enough to stay afloat and pay the developers decent wages, there is no need to put completely pointless exceptations on the game. You are just opening yourself up for disappointment.
You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace.
Please read the thread, your post is essentially moot. (There are no monopolistic games now, all MMOs are niche.)
There are a lot of delusional people in this thread.
I don't know where to start, I guess let's start with monthly subs:
I think it's a mistake for Pantheon to even consider charging a monthly sub as it's main (likely only outside of backers) source of revenue. Excepting them to charge more than the norm for AAA quality games which have development teams 50X as large as Pantheon's (with less meaningless positions) is pure insanity. Excepting them to charge on par at $15 a month is pretty ridiculous as well. Look at how poorly Pathfinder Online is doing right now and a lot of it is because they are charging a monthly sub. There is a reason more and more MMO developers are moving away from the subscription based model and going buy to play.
The game is already niche. The target demographic is people who played Everquest or Vanguard (probably around ~200k people). Then you have a million other factors that reduce that demographic further, for example a lot of people who played Everquest or Vanguard may have given up on the MMO genre entirely and aren't following anything related to the genre anymore, how exactly would you get the message out to them? What about the people (which are probably the vast majority) who aren't stuck in nostalgia land and moved on to newer video games?
And those stating that Vanguard didn't do well because it was released early and in a buggy state, well it was still a complete mess of a game with numerous bugs even to the point when it was shut down. I'm not sure why you would expect Pantheon to be any different when they have less programmers, even more amateurs, no budget for quality control, and a fan base that will tell them everything is fine even if the game deleted their hard drives after it was installed.
Pantheon doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay. The combat looks like it's copying Everquest all over again with slow tab target based gameplay and pretty much all the character and NPC models are taken directly from the Unity store, with often little cohesion in the art style. All of the "new" features I've heard proposed for Pantheon, like multi-colored mana, sound completely pointless and could even hurt enjoyment with needless complexity that adds zero depth to anything. Environmental art does look nice though, and they are using the Unity engine well.
There's also the poor management and possibly even downright fraudulent way they've been handling funding. We know for a fact as he admitted himself that Brad basically pocketted $47k (used towards his wife's medical bills apparently) of the funding AND he was paying himself "industry standard" on top of that. That's somewhere along the lines of $80k, the majority of the money Pantheon got within the first several months after the Kickstarter. The failed Kickstarter and the controversy around it will probably permanently hamper Pantheon's ability to secure any serious funding in the future, and unfortunately money from the very small fanbase it has now (update videos have less views that some of my youtube videos, and they are literally just gameplay videos I throw up - and that's with Pantheon advertising on major MMO gaming news sites like this one) isn't going to be enough to sustain development of Pantheon for 3 years before it officially releases.
If you want to be optimistic about Pantheon I would suggest being very cautious at the very least. Wait till you get a chance to play it before becoming so invested into it.
If Brad's estimate is true, the 20k-25k is pretty realistic and even that's somewhat optimistic. If we are going full on optimistic I would say the best Pantheon could ever hope for is 200k active players (subs if they use that, which they likely will, which is unfortunate). It's always going to be a niche game for a niche audience. I would be happy if it just succeeded enough to stay afloat and pay the developers decent wages, there is no need to put completely pointless exceptations on the game. You are just opening yourself up for disappointment.
Supply and demand. If he create something that people want, they will pay for it. Having big expectation is never a problem, hype is not to be feared. If Brad delivers, great you get a nice game to play as a bonus. If he doesn't, you move to the next shiny. Do you really beat yourself because you put faith in a game project and it didn't deliver ? Is there actually anything wrong with being enthusiastic about this project or any other ?
I think people try too hard to tell others what they should think. I am curious tho, it doesn't even sound like you would have an interest in the game, even if it was done perfectly and stick to the tennets. So why do you even care?
Comments
F2P does not equal unsuccessful. It's just another payment model. It works. The most played game LoL is F2P. Guess that means it's on life support.
As for the red. All these mmos have more code in the log in screen and launcher then Pantheon has all together lol. You are bringing a spoon to a gun fight lol.
The funny thing is the disgruntled mmo gamers you are speaking of are tired of whats out because it's all the same to them. And they are looking for the next gen mmo that will push boundaries and show them something they've never seen before. This mmo is bringing back 1999. This is not moving the genre forward. It's niche. That's ok, but I bet you all your fake numbers that majority of those "disgruntled" mmo gamers are not going to be peeing their pants in excitement over MMO Pantheon: Windows 95 edition.
Argues F2P for MMOs by referencing a MOBA, talks about a spoon in a gunfight. The irony.
There are plenty of F2P mmos currently out there doing very well. Some even better then most P2P mmos. From someone claiming to know the pulse of mmos. I would think you would know this and I wouldn't have to point it out. I just gave one extreme example. Following your extreme depiction of F2P.
BTW, I'm ok with F2P. But, I would always prefer P2P followed by B2P. But, unlike you I am not blinded by fandom and possibly ignoranc to cloud my perspective on facts.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g1925994-d302520-r256280084-InterContinental_Samui_Baan_Taling_Ngam_Resort-Taling_Ngam_Ko_Samui_Surat_Thani_.html
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2 5 star buffets.
eek.
It is obvious, that you do not understand that the "Market" is getting older. And more discernable and frugal and demanding. So look back to the hey days of say 2006-9? And look Today, where are all those WoW, EQ, EQ2, VG, War, players now?
More importantly:
Where are those players being served?
Who is serving this crowd?
Can I see the menu please?
What we call the MMo Space is a vast matrix of unknowns, across many platforms and price schemes, etc. The demographics and metrics are tough, even when had is tough to understand it as-a-whole across all platforms, all the time.
It is more simplistically explained as easy as seeing the juggernaught / monopolistic World of Warcraft being broken up, like the baby bells. Into many smaller sub-cultures and communities. Segments.
These "segments of the market" are not niche.
THAT is now the state of the Market / MMo space. But please understand (& John Smedley forgets this entirely) that MMORPG are indeed a niche market of MMOs. That MMORPG are now just a small segment of the MMO space and that nearly the same amount of patron exist within the MMORPG space, than back in 2009, they just are no being served. So most don't subscribe anymore. Companies like SOE/TRION just have been unable to retain them, as Smedley has pushed for more MMO style games. (ie: Dota)
Within the MMORPG sphere, who other than Blizzard/WoW are still producing a quality MMORPGs. There needs to be a new story world in the MMORPG market, because the lands of Norrath, Azeroth, Middle Earth are dying out. (ie: Role Playing Games). That is why Pantheon, Crowfall and Shroud will each take on a couple hundred thousand their sophomore years.
Subscription based MMORPG have not died out, those making them turned their development towards MMO where investments, get a quicker return. While in contrast, a MMORPG take longer to build, but their ROI are greater. They caveat is, they also must be made with QUALITY, for that business model to work. And when the developer thinks his product is QUALITY, but the public does not? Is when they turn to F2P and change their business model from earning the money back, to outright selling part of the games as trinkets, for in-game favors. Hopefully getting their ROI back as quickly as possible, before the games lack of depth is found out, or people get hooked on a different F2P from theirs.
I only see a few holding on to the idea of "MMORPG". (Pantheon, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar, etc.).
Subscribers where not looking for a "World shattering new experiences", just one that has depth and richness and meaning. That is the call, that is what their dollars are worth to them. Reach a certain threshold of quality and boom. Another Baby Bell.
If they want "life shattering play", adults will jack into Battlefront/Battlefield and go full retard. They are not going to look for that in an MMORPG, it would be stupid to do so. Rolling the dice has nothing to do with point and shoot, or twitch. Dumb is dumb and that is what the oldschool has been telling SOE and others.
There are thousands of MMOs, very few MMORPGs.
A MMO can be any online game, (Shoots & Ladders online), but do understand that most adults care only about MMORPGs and are not looking for just any mmo, but a mmo rpg.
This confusion is due in part to the owner of MMORPG.com trying to increase revenues by marketing mainly MMO on this site & not MMORPGs. Kinda defeats the legitimacy & community of this site. But you can see how someone might come here looking for a MMORPG, see the add for Mirror Online and then think they are playing a roleplaying game. Noobie move and intended. Ironically, this site is a marketing ploy, owned/manged by a F2P dealer. You will never see a full review of Mirror Online, but this site will take will push these advertisement to try and confuse the MMORPG buyer.
There are 7 million Subscribers, in limbo not subscribing to anything. They don't want McDonald's anymore, they want an upscale menu. Everyone here can see how it is working out. There is going to be many Baby Bells..
Watch & learn.You say your metrics are solid after stating that "Any active player, who has ever played EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard, will buy into Pantheon. " really?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most games have trouble holding onto the 15 dollar a month with large crowds of people, a well known studio, a well known franchise, polish and periodic updates. How in the world do people think a semi indie studio is going to be able to charge 25 dollars.
First not only the higher sub would turn people away, hell most studios have trouble justifying the 15 dollars let alone an almost 75% increase on top of that. At that rate why not just play P99 and be done with it?
Second raising the sub rate to 25 dollars would create such a shockwave throughout the community that you so would not want. Claims of greed, expectations of upgrades at the very least monthly (at the rate i'm paying you better have something new every month or i'm gone) , slippery slopes (we already have the Collector edition price hike going on, you want the subs to do that to?) and as soon as something else came out it wouldn't take much for someone to say, you can get the same and more than this other company at nearly half the cost (15 dollars), you'd be creating such an easy marketing situation for others companies to make the going rate look great and steal your current playerbase.
I get it you like the game, but wanting the subs to go to 25 dollars a month and actually people paying that is somewhat dangerous, right now it stays at 15 dollars as thats expected, why anyone wants to pay more for something you can get for less, I have no idea. We dont' even know if the quality of the game supports the 15 dollars a month let alone if it would warrant an increase of that amount
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Define "Never seen before."
Correct, the MMORPG market consist of utter crap right now. And has for nearly 10 years. (Less money per person being spent, per year.)
Look around. How old are you and when did you start playing MMORPGs? What demographic are you truly and do you represent that demographics as a median?
To the demographic that we (myself) are speaking (old School AD&D/UO/EQ/AC/SWG/EQ2/EVE & early WoW players.), that really nothing but Darkfall or Mortal Online has really pushed the boundaries of MMORPGs.
*(If anything games developers like DICE are moving ever so close to larger & larger worlds. Add a $20 per month subscription to Battlefield 4 ?? and you can see where DICE can go with that? )
Making a wide-spectrum game means you also have to listen to the cries, pleas, and complaints of Millions of players. You have to cater to them all. It is much more prudent and easier, richer and intimate when you have a more tight-knit community (niche).
Free to Play teenagers and Young Adults are not going to be able to afford pantheon. They will not be part of the 250k + or so projected to play it. The oldguard is a strong market, they just have been forgotten. Quality is the first concern, after that their reservations & wallets don't matter.
Honestly, how does a 40 year old not drop $300/year on on Hobby, when He just bought his two kids iPhones for their B-days.
See?
Once again why are you attempting to speak for the Oldguard, or pretend to perceive to know, what they want?
EQn style of game is not what they are looking for, EQ3 is. Joe Public MMO player has no idea what oldschool is, has never played Dungeon & Dragons, or have ever had to play a role. You do not seem to be able to follow, or understand the demographics involved. I am trying to help.
Many active & semi-active 32+ year olds have a strong college following whom game regularly, with their 10 - 3,000 (guild) buddies. These are what we call weekend warriors. And they are the most lucrative of all markets.
The MM0-space/Market houses all kinds of secrets. Knowing pecking order and who follows who, is a key advantage to learning what data means. That is why I say "Watch & Learn". Because your education is not going to take a days, but years.
You confuse a MMO player and a MMORPG player too much. It is OK to call them niche, if need be. Just know what it means. It is not hard to understand, how only a scant few of the 7 million who are currently in Limbo looking, will find their way to Pantheon. Understand that WoW doesn't exist anymore. (metaphorically)
Watch & learn.
Words mean things. I said "buy into Pantheon". Not buy the game.
Meaning (if you didn't understand) is that they will buy into and like the idea of Pantheon. But not necessarily become a paying Patron. It will weigh on them, but will debate heavily if they want to make the lifestyle change to play it.
Go back and read the original, don't take it out of context please.
While I think saying at $15 sub is best, and I agree with most of what you said up top, you are missing the crux of the opposing argument. No one is offering a similar alternative to the game they are creating. While there are many online games, the tenets and features for Pantheon would make it a game you can't just "get for less."
Name "most games".?
You are trying to compare today's current games with a $25/month sub and it just doesn't work. There is NOT a game today, that is worthy of a $300/year price tag. You have to build it.
Who are you to say NO GAME is worth $300/year currently?
Because they don't exist !!
And that is because many of these "big name" developers were trying to dethrone WoW using ego, instead of with product.
Again, the rise of the Baby Bells..!
Who are you again?
I looked at that site and it's features, it has a lot of good features and I think if they pull it off it will be a great game, but I don't see anything that warrants such a price hike as 15 to 25, 17. 18...maybe and this is a big maybe 19, but not 25. Most of the features are basic features:
- A classic take on epic MMO adventure.
This is normal PR so pointless
- Enjoy a Lore-rich and deeply complex world where environmental storytelling is central.
Again more PR, everyone says this
- An MMO developed by gamers who aren't afraid to target an audience of like-minded gamers.
Again PR
- A focus on exploration, adventure, and combat.
What game doesn't say this?
- Finally, an MMORPG for players wanting a challenging and rewarding experience. No risk, no reward.
PR, PR, PR
- Explore the world of Terminus as you see fit, on the beaten path or far off of it – just don’t say we didn't warn you!
This denotes exploration, unless your game is a tunnel then this is something you can say, you can get this in current EQ as well
- Harness the powers of ancient heroes, insidious enemies and even the Celestials to augment your own knowledge and abilities.
Skills, every MMORPG pretty much has those
- Play classes that have meaningful and defined roles such as Tank, Healer, DPS or Utility (crowd and encounter control). Class identity and group interdependability is key!
Class based system, EQ style
- Choose from a variety of races to play, delve into their epic back-stories and learn of the Celestials who may have been brought to Terminus with them.
We have multiple races, every MMORPG has at least a few
- Group-focused, intensely social game play using a class based system to encourage teamwork.
We have grouping, okay I'll give you this most newer games has solo as their primary, but being focused on group doesn't really indicate a need for such a price hike
- A heavy focus on meaningful character progression that prioritizes the advancement of player power and prestige.
We focus on your characters abilities and advancement (again nothing really here that would need a price hike)
- Questing that’s optional, not the primary means of character advancement.
Unless this is more fleshed out, this means to me you can grind mobs for advancement (levels and such), I can do this in EQ which is free(ish)
- Quests that are meaningful, challenging, and rewarding.
uh, needs fleshing out what this means otherwise...PR
- Engage in combat that will test you and your party, requiring strategy and preparation.
Our content needs groups (already said that above and thats really PR there, we need more info on this)
- Train and use a wide variety of skills as part of your character’s growth as you level up.
We have levels, as you gain levels you learn new skills...see many other games (SW:TOR for one has this setup)
- Limited and class based teleportation may get you close, but in order to reach many destinations you will have to traverse the realm-scarred lands of Terminus through the use of your own two feet, on the back of your mighty steed or even across the seas themselves.
We have fast travel...is this player based or game based, if it's player based this is somewhat better if it's game based, this is WoW style transport
- Quickly equip situational gear as you move from one climate to the next.
Okay this is intersting, but may be considered a minus by some as they will feel the need to carry around multiple sets of equipment as their group demands. lets hope everyone has all the required sets (kind of reminds me of the key system in EQ, except it's a peice of equipment instead of a...progress unlock)
- An economy that is largely player driven.
Every MMORPG claims this, none have charged more than 15 dollars
- Visible loot. If you see an NPC wielding a weapon, you should be able to loot it off of their fallen body.
Well one would hope this was the case, surprising it doesn't, I wouldn't pay an extra 10 dollars a month though to get the monster to drop the loot they are holding, i'd expect my game to do that.
- Most items that are looted from NPCs will be tradeable.
um...well okay thats nothing new, most items in any MMRORPG are tradeable.
- Dual targeting. Attack your target while healing your allies.
EQ already have this, target of target, if i target my friend and he is targeting the enemy, when i cast heal, it heals him, if i use an attack spell it hits the enemy
- Terminus is a world where instancing is the exception not the rule.
Less instancing, good but not something that worth a 10 dollar increase on subs. This should come standard and used to, for 15 dollars.
- Respect your surroundings, succumbing to death has its consequences.
More PR to make the game sound better, our world is dangerous be careful.
- Some spells can be modified to hit one or multiple targets, and you can decide on the fly.
This is interesting, will see how this develops
- Terminus is a world where Factions and Alignments matter. Ogres don’t belong in an Elven city (and so as not to offend the Ogre Rights Association, Elves don’t belong in an Ogre city either.)
Factions, see EQ, and EQ2, both have no fee, nothing here (don't hate this feature btw, i do like it)
- Horizontal character growth, with fewer levels and more meaningful gains per level.
This needs to be fleshed out more, what does this mean, by itself it's not much, as far as i can tell this is a push for Alternate Advancement (AA for short), EQ already has AA as one of their things
- Community feedback helps drive decisions made. We want to hear your voice.
PR stuff
- The game will run on PC, Mac, and possibly other platforms in the future.
um this would be a minus if it didn't
I should note i'm interested in this game and I would like to play it but looking at the feature list (I don't care what they say there ideas are, I care what they say the game will have) I can't honestly justify a hike of nearly 75%, I might see my way up to 17, maybe 18 but beyond that just seems unreasonable, sometimes for me thats a new game, in two months they would have to bring out about 60 hours worth of content just to justify that and in a time period where MMOs are getting cheaper to play not more expensive this just seems like a bad move to me.
Before anyone jumps me remember most people are going to look at the game at it's features and watch a video, then look at the cost and as soon as they see 25 dollars, you are likely to make them balk at that price. Again the market isn't used to a 75% sudden increase, if you are going to increase at all it needs to go slowly.
I'm not against the game, nor do I think it will be bad, i think at 15 dollars is a good price if you are interested, but I do feel there isn't enough here to warrant a price increase, but this is all moot because I don't see anything saying it's 25 dollars, so i'll admit I was bored and felt like discussing but at the end is kind of pointless until we get a price point.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Classifying design tenets as merely PR is lol-worthy. Its pretty specific without getting into TL;DR territory on an already lengthy game description page. Again, I'm not saying I think the game should raise the sub, but its not for a lack of features. What they are proposing is basically the polar opposite of the themepark games currently on the market. It will not appeal to everyone, but for those of us who can't stomach modern shallow MMOs, something like this has been long awaited.
They are still a ways out, so there is still much to prove. I don't expect people to buy in at first glance, but I can tell you from listening to their developer round tables and seeing the most recent updates, my confidence in Pantheon has been rejuvenated.
Well to be fair I didn't use the tenets I used the game feature section, but okay, it's not features, it's the feel (it feels like old school MMOs) and your not pushing for the increased sub fee, so i'm not really in disagreement with you on that front.
I guess I would have to see more than the couple of videos I saw on the page and a feature list that is currently provided to be convinced it's really all that, I am highly interested in this alignment system and what that gives. Although i have a feeling it's more of, if you are an ogre you are evil, if you are an elf you are good instead of actually choosing your alignment based on your actions.
I'll leave it at, what i see from the game right now I don't think it's worthy of the 25 dollars sub fee some are saying it's worth, i'd be more than willing to pluck down 15 dollars to see what it's all about though, and this is coming from someone who played EQ for 5 years, thats not to say i'm better than others but to state i'm coming from that same era of gaming and that i've played that style of game a long time, so generally in the same boat (asides from the whole can't stand later games bit)
PS. The name of my Barbarian Shaman was name Whilan. So you can see where I got my username from.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The alignment system will be similar to EQ. There will be tons of factions in Pantheon. They will be based on more than just your race. Your deity and class will also be involved. I'm sure there will be strong racial factions, but even in EQ you could go from amiable to dubious with certain factions just based on the deity and class you chose. Some factions held players of certain classes in even higher regard than others, while cities like Qeynos would attack a necromancer on site regardless of their race.
Beyond that, there will be many other factions. I haven't heard anything official, but they've mentioned city factions, mob factions, crafting factions, royalty factions and even player factions. The idea is to make player choices matter and have the world react to those decisions accordingly. This sort of thing has gone by the wayside in modern mmorpgs, but its one of those key ingredients in creating a virtual world.
There are a lot of delusional people in this thread.
I don't know where to start, I guess let's start with monthly subs:
I think it's a mistake for Pantheon to even consider charging a monthly sub as it's main (likely only outside of backers) source of revenue. Excepting them to charge more than the norm for AAA quality games which have development teams 50X as large as Pantheon's (with less meaningless positions) is pure insanity. Excepting them to charge on par at $15 a month is pretty ridiculous as well. Look at how poorly Pathfinder Online is doing right now and a lot of it is because they are charging a monthly sub. There is a reason more and more MMO developers are moving away from the subscription based model and going buy to play.
The game is already niche. The target demographic is people who played Everquest or Vanguard (probably around ~200k people). Then you have a million other factors that reduce that demographic further, for example a lot of people who played Everquest or Vanguard may have given up on the MMO genre entirely and aren't following anything related to the genre anymore, how exactly would you get the message out to them? What about the people (which are probably the vast majority) who aren't stuck in nostalgia land and moved on to newer video games?
And those stating that Vanguard didn't do well because it was released early and in a buggy state, well it was still a complete mess of a game with numerous bugs even to the point when it was shut down. I'm not sure why you would expect Pantheon to be any different when they have less programmers, even more amateurs, no budget for quality control, and a fan base that will tell them everything is fine even if the game deleted their hard drives after it was installed.
Pantheon doesn't really offer anything new in terms of gameplay. The combat looks like it's copying Everquest all over again with slow tab target based gameplay and pretty much all the character and NPC models are taken directly from the Unity store, with often little cohesion in the art style. All of the "new" features I've heard proposed for Pantheon, like multi-colored mana, sound completely pointless and could even hurt enjoyment with needless complexity that adds zero depth to anything. Environmental art does look nice though, and they are using the Unity engine well.
There's also the poor management and possibly even downright fraudulent way they've been handling funding. We know for a fact as he admitted himself that Brad basically pocketted $47k (used towards his wife's medical bills apparently) of the funding AND he was paying himself "industry standard" on top of that. That's somewhere along the lines of $80k, the majority of the money Pantheon got within the first several months after the Kickstarter. The failed Kickstarter and the controversy around it will probably permanently hamper Pantheon's ability to secure any serious funding in the future, and unfortunately money from the very small fanbase it has now (update videos have less views that some of my youtube videos, and they are literally just gameplay videos I throw up - and that's with Pantheon advertising on major MMO gaming news sites like this one) isn't going to be enough to sustain development of Pantheon for 3 years before it officially releases.
If you want to be optimistic about Pantheon I would suggest being very cautious at the very least. Wait till you get a chance to play it before becoming so invested into it.
If Brad's estimate is true, the 20k-25k is pretty realistic and even that's somewhat optimistic. If we are going full on optimistic I would say the best Pantheon could ever hope for is 200k active players (subs if they use that, which they likely will, which is unfortunate). It's always going to be a niche game for a niche audience. I would be happy if it just succeeded enough to stay afloat and pay the developers decent wages, there is no need to put completely pointless exceptations on the game. You are just opening yourself up for disappointment.
You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace.
Please read the thread, your post is essentially moot. (There are no monopolistic games now, all MMOs are niche.)
I
Supply and demand. If he create something that people want, they will pay for it. Having big expectation is never a problem, hype is not to be feared. If Brad delivers, great you get a nice game to play as a bonus. If he doesn't, you move to the next shiny. Do you really beat yourself because you put faith in a game project and it didn't deliver ? Is there actually anything wrong with being enthusiastic about this project or any other ?
I think people try too hard to tell others what they should think. I am curious tho, it doesn't even sound like you would have an interest in the game, even if it was done perfectly and stick to the tennets. So why do you even care?