Originally posted by JohnP0100 You must be looking at a fictional 'market' cause over here in the real world solo focused Mmos are doing just fine. Gw2 sold 5 million Swtor makes 100-200 million in revenue every year Wow still has 7 million subs
Guild wars 2 is rumored to have costed upwards of 150M+ 3 years ago. 5 million box sales @ even $50 (it currently costs $40) is only 250M. Sorry, but that is mediocre at best from an MMO.
Nice job ignoring all the money that GW2 makes from microtransactions and only focusing on the box sales.
Now who's going out of their way to support their argument? And I fully believe you're smart enough to know that GW2's made quite a bit of money on those.
I know they've made money from it, yet whatever level of success its brought them, its still obviously not enough to convince game companies to develop new MMOs around that same casual "solo-play" design.
Lets step back and look at this objectively. If the current leaders in this genre are so successful, why has their popularity waned, why did they switched to F2P, and why have the number of games based on this design philosophy decreased so substantially? Its self evident.
Umm.. I'm sorry to break this to you everyone can see your post!
So we went from "MMOs that revolve around solo play are struggling, scraping up whatever they can from new players on the F2P monetization."
To 'They've made money from it'.
You know, I normally find other posts by DIFFERENT POSTERS to contradict someone but this is probably my first where I can just point to the SAME POSTER on contradiction in their posts. IN the same thread too! WOW!
ROFL!
"It" referring specifically to microtransactions, and not overall success. Thus, it wasn't some sort of retraction of my previous statement regarding low profitability, though you thought yourself clever to claim it was such.
Also, I don't know where you are from and what colloquialisms you may use, but where I live, struggling and scraping are both valid descriptors that imply money is being made, just not a lot.
Honestly, I cant see why anyone still agrees that solo is better.
That's fairly obvious by now. You don't get it. But that doesn't matter to those of us who like to play that way. It's okay for you not to get it. You don't have to. Enjoy your way of playing and let others enjoy theirs without you needing to 'get them'.
Then go play a solo RPG and stop diluting the MMO market with shitty compromised games that try to do everything at once. No MMO should focus on solo player, because that goes against everything that the genre stands for.
No. And it really isn't any of your business what I play or how. I could just as easily say, go play a group only game and quit trying to ruin the good online games out there that offer solo play. You don't get to control what other people do or like.
Problem is People like you Never were cared for in MMOs before we ended up with countless MMOs. IF you wanted to solo between 1998 - 2009 ish time frame you bought a single player game. NOT an MMO. Yet Marketing people thought it would be great to get you people into an MMO. What has that done? Yes its cheapen the MMO experience for people like me who PLAY TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE. MMOs were DESIGNED for that. Single Player games were DESIGNED to be a solo experience. So why would you want to play an MMO which is by definition a Mutliplayer game. Yes people can argue about Definition all they want, Pre Massive Single Player games MMOs were about playing with other people.
If you want to play a cookie cutter group tiered progression game where you run dungeons/raids until you puke then FF14 or WoW are right there for you. If you want a more complex experience there is EVE where the most successful people form coalitions and group. There are a lot of group focused games, but it just gets some peoples panties all in a twist to know that some games provide other options to players who enjoy online play with others but don't want "group up" to be their entire experience.
I
Torval,
I want to focus this part of what you said. Yes I play FFXIV because its group focused and it pushes people to get to know each other and work together for common goals. FFXIV its also I think the right balance between Solo and Group content. You cannot progress in current end game content without finding that group of people to work with. However if that does not interest you and you want to do lets say housing, you can do that without ever needing to group with people outside the DF. Now I ALSO said I dont feel that MMOs should be like FFXI was where after level 10 you had to always level with a group. My point I will make after my comments about Eve
Now I didnt last long in eve however I have friends that played Eve for years. So I have a good idea what goes on there. With that said, in Eve you dont have to play in a group, the game does not force you. However with that said when you go into dangerous areas you want to bring friends with you because if you are alone you will get killed. So the Game does not FORCE you to group up however it does push you to do so because the risk of not doing so. The same in AA if you were taking Trade packs to PVP zones. You grouped up and made friends.
The point I am making is when you have a crowd of people that want nothing but Solo content that equals nothing more than a single player game, (Solo Raids, or Solo Instances, or never needing an escort to go into a PVP risky Zone) these are the people I have a problem with. Not saying Tim the Tool Man Craftsman couldnt do most of his crafting solo, however it should not be easy to do it all himself. He should need to interact with other Crafters to get need materials or with Combat type players to sell his wares. If Tim could (I will use UO for an example because some crafters were solo players) go and mine up endless amounts of Val ore without ever needing someone to help kill val Eleys OR someone near by to kill Monsters that might wander by him mining. OR If Tim didnt have to market his Shop with all its vendors. You might as well have Tim playing on a Private UO server by himself because if Tim is not interacting at some level with other players than why not play a Neverwinter Nights 1/2 Game? The reason I say this is because too many SOLO players want nothing more than to play Neverwinter Nights 1/2 as they are the only person playing X game. This is what I am whole Heartedly against because if you want nothing to do with other players ever, and trust me there are many of them who bitch on forums about 100% solo MMOs which I am talking about; then why are they playing an MMO? And this is why I say if a person wants to never group up or interact with players single players games are for them.
So it boils down to this and I stand my ground on it and what an MMO should mean.
If you want to group up a little bit for X content when ever you want to; and mostly crafting and gathering and interact with people who need your gear. Thats fine thats still being apart of the world you are in. When you want Solo instances, and Raids, and WOW garrisons where you never have to leave your Garrison to get mats, or to craft and you are playing an MMO in a Shoe box. Thats a problem and Single player games are for you, not a MMO.
Can someone please lock this thread? Nothing good can come out of it...
Plus, there's (at least one) thread about this exact topic already.
Really? How many threads have you come by this week that are analogizing MMO's and Club Dance Partys?
Also If you see a "Pattern" to someones posts, maybe thats because, they have an opinion and vocalize it, and this is a forum which is what you are supposed to do!?
Now to the topic at hand, anyone saying Solo-games are doing well is just 100% incorrect, and heres why.
The market change for F2P transition would never have occurred in a Sandbox/Group centric market.
Why? Because those games were built around subs because of the long term needs of the developers to maintain servers, provide new content, etc.
Does anyone here work in the industry? I have a friend who works on an MMO, which I will not disclose, but he described "Mega-servers" to me, and you know what they are?
A Short-cut, its a way to cut the heavy server costs for MMO's and to make it more cost-efficient for developers. And hey! Thats fine, but when games are F2P, using Megaservers, and allowing for No Group content at all, when the players are divided this much, stop calling it an MMO.
Call it a "CORPG" or "Co-operative Roleplaying Game" and be done with it. Guild Wars 1 is the only MMO to date that uses this term, and I dont understand why.
O no I do understand why, Money. Anyone defending 90% solo MMO's is just defending Big Corporations and Big Money saturating the MMO market, and all that is doing is putting us back down the hole and into an MMO depression.
What exactly should be group-oriented content? Nobody wants to be specific. What is the proper balance between group and solo gameplay? 50/50? Or should it be 100% group? If so, how would you do that then? Are you talking about questing? Grinding? Instances?
You talk about a "Sandbox/Group centric market", but never define specifically what it even means. It seems contradictory to me.
To claim that solo-centric gameplay is the reason for F2P and megaservers, is just ridiculous.
I hate to break it to you but Solo-Centric Gameplay is a core reason why MMOS go F2P.
Use me as an Example. I am a Group type of MMO gamer. Now with that said we dont need FFXI type forced grouping, yet having FFXIV forced grouping, or SWG where you wanted to play in a group because some things would kill even a Master Commando, or UO I didnt want to run the Shadow Wrym room alone and risk loose gear. So While its not FORCED it was better in some games to have friends because it helped you do the content. Or it was group content in the case of FFXIV.
Now we got that out of the way. My example is this. From all of my MMO years. I have played Many MMOs, 3 of my core games that were not WOW but WOW ish I gathered up my friends to move from WOW to. Rift, SWTOR and FFXIV. Now The AVERAGE number of friends I brought between all 3 games is 16. (15.666 repeating) So when I moved to these MMOs I was bringing on Average $240 in subscription based players per month. A person who plays all Single Player all the time and does not interact with people, make friends, bring friends into MMOs; and that is 100% better playing a single player game brings $15 a month. Now well you will say well there are more of them than him and so on and so on. Well that might be true only many of these players that like the solo content also dont like subscriptions. Also many of these solo types are so use to B2P Models.
Now let me go back in time when I moved from FFXI to WOW. I Brought 6 of us from FFXI over to WOW. I also made many friends between vanilla and TBC who brought friends into WOW. We are talking where 1 person would bring more than just themselves. And yes during these times people grouped up a lot. I know I did I might not have run Shadow Labs or BRD 100 times like I have since LFD however over the course of the content being current I ran that stuff like 20 to 30 times plus. So group content was a core part of MMOs and really is what Made WOW what it is today. NOW that does not mean you Group up or die like in FFXI. However Grouping was a very large part of WOW.
SO yes while its not the ONLY reason why MMOs have gone F2P it is for sure a core reason why they have. Because when you have people like me that bring more than just myself into an MMO your MMO makes more money. Right now FFXIV for Example, My Wife plays, I got a Co Worker who plays, and 2 long time friends and a 3rd long time friend is going to join me this week. I also have a handful of friends playing WOW all on different servers all bitching that its hard to make friends in WOW today because people play it like a Single Player game. All if they can get over the level 13 combat would be in FFXIV Right now. In any event Lets stick to the known FFXIV players, I bring in $65 a month in subs plus another $12.99 in subs myself. I am a Group minded player, not a Group Centric player I like my crafting and playing Solo, however on Friday night I love to run my instances with my friends so I bring my friends with me no to sit in some queue and randomly queue to play an MMO. IF I WANTED THAT I WOULD PLAY D3, if I wanted to play a game in a shoe box I would play Neverwinter Nights 1/2 in single player mode.
Again a Group Focused MMO will do better than a Single player MMORPG.
Honestly, I cant see why anyone still agrees that solo is better.
That's fairly obvious by now. You don't get it. But that doesn't matter to those of us who like to play that way. It's okay for you not to get it. You don't have to. Enjoy your way of playing and let others enjoy theirs without you needing to 'get them'.
Then go play a solo RPG and stop diluting the MMO market with shitty compromised games that try to do everything at once. No MMO should focus on solo player, because that goes against everything that the genre stands for.
Except it doesn't.
The genre is about having multiple players sharing the same virtual space, on a massive scale.
Solo and group play can co-exist, while sharing the same virtual space. It's only the group-centric purists who want to force others to their style of playing.
Where does it stop and who defines the parameters for group play? Quests, dungeons, crafting, traveling, interacting, chatting, moving, etc..? Should people be unable to move their avatars until there is a 5 player group? Or how about a group needed for using the chat channels, or auction house, or purchasing? What are the limits? Extreme examples, but there's probably some people out there who would like this.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
I do NOT want to force YOU to do anything, I would simply like some games with the design I like to be made.
Honestly, I cant see why anyone still agrees that solo is better.
That's fairly obvious by now. You don't get it. But that doesn't matter to those of us who like to play that way. It's okay for you not to get it. You don't have to. Enjoy your way of playing and let others enjoy theirs without you needing to 'get them'.
Then go play a solo RPG and stop diluting the MMO market with shitty compromised games that try to do everything at once. No MMO should focus on solo player, because that goes against everything that the genre stands for.
Except it doesn't.
The genre is about having multiple players sharing the same virtual space, on a massive scale.
Solo and group play can co-exist, while sharing the same virtual space. It's only the group-centric purists who want to force others to their style of playing.
Where does it stop and who defines the parameters for group play? Quests, dungeons, crafting, traveling, interacting, chatting, moving, etc..? Should people be unable to move their avatars until there is a 5 player group? Or how about a group needed for using the chat channels, or auction house, or purchasing? What are the limits? Extreme examples, but there's probably some people out there who would like this.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
I do NOT want to force YOU to do anything, I would simply like some games with the design I like to be made.
Exactly. If people don't want to group, they can play the games where they don't have to. Arguing that we can simply find a group in a game based around solo play or trudge through the solo play to get to the group content are missing the point. When you remove that journey, you aren't just making the game easier, you are choosing an entirely different philosophy for designing your game that renders the experience as nothing more than a trivial, short-lived endeavor.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game.
Which games? Most I've played have both solo and group content to level. SWTOR for example, I've leveled a number of characters to max doing only group content. Falshpoints and the planet heroics.
I have had plenty of grouping (not saying they were all good though) in many games I have played using the grouping tools . In WoW, FFXIV ARR, SWTOR. In SWTOR I have grouped a lot and playing my operative I have had an absolute blast doing the cc ,healing and dps. Have no idea why you all find it so hard to find group content.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game.
Which games? Most I've played have both solo and group content to level. SWTOR for example, I've leveled a number of characters to max doing only group content. Falshpoints and the planet heroics.
Why would LFG tools exist in solo MMO's?
I think you are missing his point. Lets take WOW for Example. There are many people who just quest to Max level and never step foot into an instance. When they get to end game and start grouping up. Guess what they do not know how to play their class and are completely lost about their role. Now you can use the LFD tool in WOW to group up and just run in groups endlessly. Here is the problem Instances in WOW only teach you to group up the Mobs and AOE them down as fast as possible. No kill orders no mechanics. The bosses are all tank and spank with very little mechanics. Take this person that gets to end game and does all the same stuff. Now if Raid bosses and raid trash are not this easy this player does not know their role. Hell WOW made it so you can buy a 90 and have no knowledge on your role in game at all. So really the Journey of an MMO has been lost.
Now I will go to my favorite MMO that people love to trash. Why? Because it forces grouping. How does it force grouping? Well the quest chain forces you to run instances to progress through the game. Now they do have what is called the Dungeon Finder tool which is LFD in WOW, Plus they designed a tool called Party finder to find people on your server. So they made GROUPING easier however you still have to do some of it.
Now the early dungeons force you to learn Kill orders because if you dont the instance takes a lot longer to do, Also you could pull off a tank because in FFXIV Aggro on a take is not like WOW where if you hit the mob once he is on you the end. In FFXIV Tanks must manage Aggro and if DPS are splitting their damage or even doing AOE damage tanks will have issues holding aggro. Not saying they cannot if they are really good however its tougher. You also learn in FFXIV that you can CC mobs making it easier on the healer. A Black Mage could sleep several targets making the run very smooth. Its not forced but again it makes things easier. Also the bosses have mechanics you cannot ignore, if you do you will wipe.
How is this good one ask. Well I done 4 End Game Trials with myself and my wife and 6 random pugs. Now we had some wipes in this pugs however in FFXIV Pugs are not like WOW pugs, they dont bitch and throw fits if you wipe once, you do get the random ass hole but they are not as bad as WOW. Now in these Trials I lead and explained what people had to do, with people understanding their JOB/ROLE they perform very well and all 4 trials we completed with full on pugs. Yes we had a few learning wipes however people knowing that grouping is a part of the game, did it as a part of the journey end up in my experience a better players at end game. Yes the content is nerfed however A Black Mage who has grouped during the leveling process knows that Fire 1 and Fire 3 are Single target abilities and should be used during single target phases. The same Black Mage knows that during AOE phases they use Fire 2. The same Mage knows hey if they can sleep 1 of 3 adds on the off tank do it because it makes the run smoother.
When you are pushed to group sometimes as a part of the leveling journey players and where group structure must be used to complete encounters these players are much better of in the game than what many MMOs have become today. Again I am not saying Grouping all the time, I am talking Grouping as a part of the journey of leveling makes for a better end game player.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game.
Which games? Most I've played have both solo and group content to level. SWTOR for example, I've leveled a number of characters to max doing only group content. Falshpoints and the planet heroics.
Why would LFG tools exist in solo MMO's?
I think you are missing his point. Lets take WOW for Example. There are many people who just quest to Max level and never step foot into an instance. When they get to end game and start grouping up. Guess what they do not know how to play their class and are completely lost about their role. Now you can use the LFD tool in WOW to group up and just run in groups endlessly. Here is the problem Instances in WOW only teach you to group up the Mobs and AOE them down as fast as possible. No kill orders no mechanics. The bosses are all tank and spank with very little mechanics. Take this person that gets to end game and does all the same stuff. Now if Raid bosses and raid trash are not this easy this player does not know their role. Hell WOW made it so you can buy a 90 and have no knowledge on your role in game at all. So really the Journey of an MMO has been lost.
Now I will go to my favorite MMO that people love to trash. Why? Because it forces grouping. How does it force grouping? Well the quest chain forces you to run instances to progress through the game. Now they do have what is called the Dungeon Finder tool which is LFD in WOW, Plus they designed a tool called Party finder to find people on your server. So they made GROUPING easier however you still have to do some of it.
Now the early dungeons force you to learn Kill orders because if you dont the instance takes a lot longer to do, Also you could pull off a tank because in FFXIV Aggro on a take is not like WOW where if you hit the mob once he is on you the end. In FFXIV Tanks must manage Aggro and if DPS are splitting their damage or even doing AOE damage tanks will have issues holding aggro. Not saying they cannot if they are really good however its tougher. You also learn in FFXIV that you can CC mobs making it easier on the healer. A Black Mage could sleep several targets making the run very smooth. Its not forced but again it makes things easier. Also the bosses have mechanics you cannot ignore, if you do you will wipe.
How is this good one ask. Well I done 4 End Game Trials with myself and my wife and 6 random pugs. Now we had some wipes in this pugs however in FFXIV Pugs are not like WOW pugs, they dont bitch and throw fits if you wipe once, you do get the random ass hole but they are not as bad as WOW. Now in these Trials I lead and explained what people had to do, with people understanding their JOB/ROLE they perform very well and all 4 trials we completed with full on pugs. Yes we had a few learning wipes however people knowing that grouping is a part of the game, did it as a part of the journey end up in my experience a better players at end game. Yes the content is nerfed however A Black Mage who has grouped during the leveling process knows that Fire 1 and Fire 3 are Single target abilities and should be used during single target phases. The same Black Mage knows that during AOE phases they use Fire 2. The same Mage knows hey if they can sleep 1 of 3 adds on the off tank do it because it makes the run smoother.
When you are pushed to group sometimes as a part of the leveling journey players and where group structure must be used to complete encounters these players are much better of in the game than what many MMOs have become today. Again I am not saying Grouping all the time, I am talking Grouping as a part of the journey of leveling makes for a better end game player.
I'm not missing the point. Your example is not a problem with newer MMO's. People solo'd to max in the older games. The gamers who did then want to do the group content/raids and such but don't know the mechanics.
I'm just confused why it's apparently a newer mmo problem when soloing was prevalent in UO, EQ and SWG?
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
How so? All the MOBAs are not of this design. All the pvp-only or e-sport MMOs are not of this design. Even pve games like warframe is not of this design (you can group level).
I'm not missing the point. Your example is not a problem with newer MMO's. People solo'd to max in the older games. The gamers who did then want to do the group content/raids and such but don't know the mechanics.
I'm just confused why it's apparently a newer mmo problem when soloing was prevalent in UO, EQ and SWG?
Lets talk about SWG and UO because I played both for years, EQ I never really got into. I also hope you dont mind I cleaned up a lot of the quotes.
First lets look at UO and SWG. UO you built up skills to be able to take on Harder Monsters, however some classes like a Warrior wound never take on a Balron Solo, heck even a Demon would be a bit much for a Warrior. Demons could be killed if you were a Warrior however some luck played into it. Now If you were fighting demons with a Bard or a Tamer well Demons would be easy to kill however Balrons would still prove a tough fight even for 7x GM Tamers and Bards. Now if you were with a warrior friend taking on a Demon and you were a warrior you could cross heal each other and the Demon would die. If you and another Tamer took on a Balron and both had White Wryms you could both heal which ever Wrym took damage faster and a Balron was no trouble. We can then talk about Crafters well they played alone. Well yes however many of them had friends that would help out around areas where they would mine or cut down trees. I remember killing Water Eleys on a Ship while my friend who wanted to level a maul was farming Ore around the mountain north of Minoc.
Next lets look at SWG. In SWG there too they had master classes that were good at certain types of mobs in the world players could kill. Take A Commando for instance, (Which I was one) We could easily take down AT-STs in less than 10 seconds with a Rocket Launcher that was made well by a crafter. However I remember getting owned by Tuskin Raiders and Rancor. My friend who was a Teras Kasi for a while use to own Tuskin Raiders. I have seen Beastmasters own Rancors. And this is ALL before they put in the 3 stat buff into the game making all players over powered. So before these buffs players played together often in the world when going into dangerous places and they brought friends that can help them do what they wanted. Also add in when you went to kill a player made base you needed different classes to slice terminals to blow up the base. Now again if you want to talk crafters I was on many crafters list to message me to help them put down their harvesters because when you were a crafter in the game you had 0 chance of surviving an encounter with a weak monster and if you could get a 80% or higher location for your mats especially on a very good mat guess what you made friends to help you do so.
Now I just gave you examples of how even these games there was a lot of grouping. Not grouping for instances grouping to help each other achieve common goals. Or for a craftsmen to get the mats they he needed and would likely sell his crafted items to hired help at cheaper rates. Everything I am describing is GROUP play, not forced group play but GROUP PLAY that makes it so you cannot possible do everything in game yourself.
Anyway lets look at Today's MMOs. Everyone since WOW (except AA) has launched in a themepark setup with instances a part of the game as well as end game. The way they are built to be Instanced base both during leveling up and end game. They are not designed for 1 player to do all the content themselves. They are designed for GROUPS to work together to clear this content. If you want content designed for that, Diablo1/2/3, Neverwinter nights 1/2 and a whole host of Single player games are designed for you the Worlds Hero with gods giving you more power than they have so you can beat anything you can alone. Or in neverwinter nights' case you take a party you fully control and your group that you control are the heroes. So Here is a Question Why should an MMO be designed exactly like a Single player game? The answer it should NOT there are games out there on cheaper budgets with no operational cost that can give Single player content better.
Now I will give you that there were people who played solo. Soloing also limited these players in UO and SWG. You didnt see these people killing ancient wyrms alone or doing Champion spawns alone. For example people who did champion spawns would party up so people could heal them easier than clicking on their avatar in game. Granted it was not as organized as 40 man raids were. Or in SWG before the God like buff they gave out, there would be teams of us that would go and blow up an Imperial base. Granted it was a few of us who played together and then a handful who was apart of the alliance we were in but we grouped up for that content.
Now lets get down to the CORE problem with people who want to SOLO. It comes back to they want to be like they are in a single player game. They need to rely on no one so any Raid even current raid content should be able to be done as 1 player. Or they should be able to craft anything and never need to interact with another player for mats. Lets even take into account the people that bitched for the SWG Stat Buff. They were mad because the world was dangerous and it required other people to go into dangerous areas of the planets. Its not about having Solo content, its about people wanting to be god like; like they can be in single player games.
Can someone point me toward the MMO that the majority of the game play is forced grouping? One currently playable in that state? I would like to sign up for it now....
I heard FFXIV:ARR has forced grouping, but that is probably relevant to dungeons only, just like every other MMO. I never got far enough in that game though to know. Back in the day, it was LIneage that forced grouping.
The problem with threads like these, is that they never discuss details as to which content should be group-only.
FFXIV:ARR has about as much forced grouping as WoW, ESO, Wildstar, or any other WoW forumula MMO. Which is about 90% solo 10% group. Hardly a group focused MMO.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
How so? All the MOBAs are not of this design. All the pvp-only or e-sport MMOs are not of this design. Even pve games like warframe is not of this design (you can group level).
The past page of posts has been made up data, anecdotes and amazingly crazy revisionist history. Trying to bring facts into the argument won't help at this point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The real problem as I see it is that a single player game will offer a better solo experience since it actually can change the world just for you. No MMO can ever do that.
It can however open up for rather good group action and since MMOs are more expensive to make than most single player games (if not all) they should focus on the stuff they actually can ace.
Adding some solocontent for odd hours is fine, particularly exploration but if you add too much you could just skip the multiplayer thing and make an awesome single player game instead.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
How so? All the MOBAs are not of this design. All the pvp-only or e-sport MMOs are not of this design. Even pve games like warframe is not of this design (you can group level).
The past page of posts has been made up data, anecdotes and amazingly crazy revisionist history. Trying to bring facts into the argument won't help at this point.
I made a post a few days ago that was full of actual statistics about MOBA's and F2P MMO's and no one responded to it.
Obviously MMORPG posters want the anecdotal rather than the rational, but thats a different topic.
I wont disagree that F2P is more lucrative for developers, in fact ive been saying this entire time that big money/big corps love F2P because its allows them to punish the players who dont spend money and reward those that do to such extents that if you dont pay for the 25 Dollar Cosmetics, you dont get the Stimpack EXP boost for 5.99, you dont upgrade to the sub-pack to get all the additiona content, you mid as well not play.
MMO's used to have a standard fare 15.99 billing price, it was all inclusive and didnt stress out one half of the player base if they didnt pay up, it put everyone on the same playing field.
But thats what it is, they are praising the individual in a game based around the idea of collective non-cooperation and to me that just doesnt make sense, why not just make it a single player game then and charge 50$ and be done with it?
Can someone point me toward the MMO that the majority of the game play is forced grouping? One currently playable in that state? I would like to sign up for it now....
I heard FFXIV:ARR has forced grouping, but that is probably relevant to dungeons only, just like every other MMO. I never got far enough in that game though to know. Back in the day, it was LIneage that forced grouping.
The problem with threads like these, is that they never discuss details as to which content should be group-only.
FFXIV:ARR has about as much forced grouping as WoW, ESO, Wildstar, or any other WoW forumula MMO. Which is about 90% solo 10% group. Hardly a group focused MMO.
No FFXIV has more Forced grouping than WOW or the other MMOs because if you do not progress your storyline there are large parts of the content that will not open for you. And the Main Storyline you must do and there are required instances which are a part of that main storyline. Now Its not a ton of grouping. However with that said they did add in other content that is group based. GuildHeist, Trails and the preiskin t maps which require 8 people to do, and lets not forget the A and S ranked hunts. So there is more Group content but not forced grouping. And add to that all the jobs and their abilities really focus around being in a Party. AKA Shield Oath and Sword Oath, while these can help in solo their primary design is group.
While FFXIV is not a Group only MMO it is more group focused than WOW.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
How so? All the MOBAs are not of this design. All the pvp-only or e-sport MMOs are not of this design. Even pve games like warframe is not of this design (you can group level).
The past page of posts has been made up data, anecdotes and amazingly crazy revisionist history. Trying to bring facts into the argument won't help at this point.
I made a post a few days ago that was full of actual statistics about MOBA's and F2P MMO's and no one responded to it.
Obviously MMORPG posters want the anecdotal rather than the rational, but thats a different topic.
I wont disagree that F2P is more lucrative for developers, in fact ive been saying this entire time that big money/big corps love F2P because its allows them to punish the players who dont spend money and reward those that do to such extents that if you dont pay for the 25 Dollar Cosmetics, you dont get the Stimpack EXP boost for 5.99, you dont upgrade to the sub-pack to get all the additiona content, you mid as well not play.
MMO's used to have a standard fare 15.99 billing price, it was all inclusive and didnt stress out one half of the player base if they didnt pay up, it put everyone on the same playing field.
But thats what it is, they are praising the individual in a game based around the idea of collective non-cooperation and to me that just doesnt make sense, why not just make it a single player game then and charge 50$ and be done with it?
FFXIV being P2P with a cash shop that is not in my face ever, and being focused on grouping is why I play FFXIV. I know its not for everyone. Especially people who like Action Combat or Fast paced combat. In any event its for a sub set of MMO players and its a good game Without all the corporate ass holes looking to get every last penny out of players.
Believe it or not, but there are many games out there that are more solo-oriented than SW:TOR. There's actually still things like world elites and group quests in TOR, while that's long gone in games like WoW.
The group choices system is great when you're playing with friends. Though I admit that it's very flawed when strangers wonna rush the content.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Believe it or not, but there are many games out there that are more solo-oriented than SW:TOR. There's actually still things like world elites and group quests in TOR, while that's long gone in games like WoW.
The group choices system is great when you're playing with friends. Though I admit that it's very flawed when strangers wonna rush the content.
Yes it is. I am having a good time with pugs in FFXIV, and this is like the only MMO I had a good time with pugs in the last 4+ years. The Core Problem is how we look at games now. Its about how fast we get to our goal, not our Journey there.
MMO's used to have a standard fare 15.99 billing price, it was all inclusive and didnt stress out one half of the player base if they didnt pay up, it put everyone on the same playing field.
No one is stressed out except maybe you, and you don't even play the game. If you aren't paying and aren't playing, then there is some other issue, and from your posts it seems like "everyone is having fun but they aren't playing with me, therefore they must not really be having fun so design games to force them to play with me."
"oh, and don't let anyone play for free because that's somehow bad."
And that's pretty scary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Believe it or not, but there are many games out there that are more solo-oriented than SW:TOR. There's actually still things like world elites and group quests in TOR, while that's long gone in games like WoW.
The group choices system is great when you're playing with friends. Though I admit that it's very flawed when strangers wonna rush the content.
Agreed, I never understood some of these arguements, okay I know money is important and with the amount they spent there should have been more. whatever. That's a topic for a whole other thread
People act like the amount of group content is new or something. I've dabbled in UO, I played a lot of EQ (back in the day around Velious era) I touched a bit on the other games including Anarchy online and such. At the start lets take EQ for example. I'd start out killing a few rats I don't do this group I do this solo, I'd sell their hides for copper. Once I heard the ding sound I'd practice a little more on them to raise my skills then I'd go to skeletons. Every now and then I'd hail an NPC and get a quest to get X number of pelts or whatever. While hunting I would save these pieces of loot and turn them in for an armor piece, gold and some XP. At a certain point I would group to kill some tougher monsters for a while but eventually that group would disperse and I'd be back to hunting wolves or whatever was around my level. So what do i do now in these later MMOs? I start off hunting droids getting loot, I'd run across a quest that asks me to get a certain amount of loot. While hunting I save these pieces and I turn in the loot for an armor piece, credits and some XP, later I group with some people to take down a tougher group of monsters for a while. The group disperses and I go back to hunting Jedi's and such. How is this any different in later games then older games. Granted you do a lot of group stuff later in EQ and the like but surprise you do a lot of group stuff later in SW:ToR as well. Okay you do a lot of soloing in SW:ToR but I did a lot of soloing in EQ and I was a warrior and before that I was a shaman. Really looking at it, I did a lot of what i'm doing now (not sure thats a good thing) but it really hasn't changed all that much, i'm sorry for people who think it has, but you soloed at the beginning, you grouped every now and then, and at the end you ran whatever was end game content, which is exactly what you are doing now, yet somehow it's a problem.
Also living breathing world (and yes this is sort of off topic,) how is SW:ToR any less a living world than other games? Most NPC don't move in Tera, They don't really move in WoW, they really don't do anything in EQ or EQ2 for that matter. What I played of GW2 most NPC just stand around (yes shocker I played a little bit of that game, got bored of it really quickly though so can't comment too much on it), in fact in most games the NPCs just stand there and don't do anything. Yeah I know NPC guards and things move around but they do that in SW:ToR as well. I just don't get this arguement at all. SW:TOR looks as living breathing as nearly every MMO i've ever seen.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
"It" referring specifically to microtransactions, and not overall success. Thus, it wasn't some sort of retraction of my previous statement regarding low profitability, though you thought yourself clever to claim it was such.
Also, I don't know where you are from and what colloquialisms you may use, but where I live, struggling and scraping are both valid descriptors that imply money is being made, just not a lot.
Torval,
I want to focus this part of what you said. Yes I play FFXIV because its group focused and it pushes people to get to know each other and work together for common goals. FFXIV its also I think the right balance between Solo and Group content. You cannot progress in current end game content without finding that group of people to work with. However if that does not interest you and you want to do lets say housing, you can do that without ever needing to group with people outside the DF. Now I ALSO said I dont feel that MMOs should be like FFXI was where after level 10 you had to always level with a group. My point I will make after my comments about Eve
Now I didnt last long in eve however I have friends that played Eve for years. So I have a good idea what goes on there. With that said, in Eve you dont have to play in a group, the game does not force you. However with that said when you go into dangerous areas you want to bring friends with you because if you are alone you will get killed. So the Game does not FORCE you to group up however it does push you to do so because the risk of not doing so. The same in AA if you were taking Trade packs to PVP zones. You grouped up and made friends.
The point I am making is when you have a crowd of people that want nothing but Solo content that equals nothing more than a single player game, (Solo Raids, or Solo Instances, or never needing an escort to go into a PVP risky Zone) these are the people I have a problem with. Not saying Tim the Tool Man Craftsman couldnt do most of his crafting solo, however it should not be easy to do it all himself. He should need to interact with other Crafters to get need materials or with Combat type players to sell his wares. If Tim could (I will use UO for an example because some crafters were solo players) go and mine up endless amounts of Val ore without ever needing someone to help kill val Eleys OR someone near by to kill Monsters that might wander by him mining. OR If Tim didnt have to market his Shop with all its vendors. You might as well have Tim playing on a Private UO server by himself because if Tim is not interacting at some level with other players than why not play a Neverwinter Nights 1/2 Game? The reason I say this is because too many SOLO players want nothing more than to play Neverwinter Nights 1/2 as they are the only person playing X game. This is what I am whole Heartedly against because if you want nothing to do with other players ever, and trust me there are many of them who bitch on forums about 100% solo MMOs which I am talking about; then why are they playing an MMO? And this is why I say if a person wants to never group up or interact with players single players games are for them.
So it boils down to this and I stand my ground on it and what an MMO should mean.
If you want to group up a little bit for X content when ever you want to; and mostly crafting and gathering and interact with people who need your gear. Thats fine thats still being apart of the world you are in. When you want Solo instances, and Raids, and WOW garrisons where you never have to leave your Garrison to get mats, or to craft and you are playing an MMO in a Shoe box. Thats a problem and Single player games are for you, not a MMO.
IMO, Most solo based games tank in a year or two. The multi part of it never ties in correctly.
Games focusing on group aspects usually do a bit better.
I hate to break it to you but Solo-Centric Gameplay is a core reason why MMOS go F2P.
Use me as an Example. I am a Group type of MMO gamer. Now with that said we dont need FFXI type forced grouping, yet having FFXIV forced grouping, or SWG where you wanted to play in a group because some things would kill even a Master Commando, or UO I didnt want to run the Shadow Wrym room alone and risk loose gear. So While its not FORCED it was better in some games to have friends because it helped you do the content. Or it was group content in the case of FFXIV.
Now we got that out of the way. My example is this. From all of my MMO years. I have played Many MMOs, 3 of my core games that were not WOW but WOW ish I gathered up my friends to move from WOW to. Rift, SWTOR and FFXIV. Now The AVERAGE number of friends I brought between all 3 games is 16. (15.666 repeating) So when I moved to these MMOs I was bringing on Average $240 in subscription based players per month. A person who plays all Single Player all the time and does not interact with people, make friends, bring friends into MMOs; and that is 100% better playing a single player game brings $15 a month. Now well you will say well there are more of them than him and so on and so on. Well that might be true only many of these players that like the solo content also dont like subscriptions. Also many of these solo types are so use to B2P Models.
Now let me go back in time when I moved from FFXI to WOW. I Brought 6 of us from FFXI over to WOW. I also made many friends between vanilla and TBC who brought friends into WOW. We are talking where 1 person would bring more than just themselves. And yes during these times people grouped up a lot. I know I did I might not have run Shadow Labs or BRD 100 times like I have since LFD however over the course of the content being current I ran that stuff like 20 to 30 times plus. So group content was a core part of MMOs and really is what Made WOW what it is today. NOW that does not mean you Group up or die like in FFXI. However Grouping was a very large part of WOW.
SO yes while its not the ONLY reason why MMOs have gone F2P it is for sure a core reason why they have. Because when you have people like me that bring more than just myself into an MMO your MMO makes more money. Right now FFXIV for Example, My Wife plays, I got a Co Worker who plays, and 2 long time friends and a 3rd long time friend is going to join me this week. I also have a handful of friends playing WOW all on different servers all bitching that its hard to make friends in WOW today because people play it like a Single Player game. All if they can get over the level 13 combat would be in FFXIV Right now. In any event Lets stick to the known FFXIV players, I bring in $65 a month in subs plus another $12.99 in subs myself. I am a Group minded player, not a Group Centric player I like my crafting and playing Solo, however on Friday night I love to run my instances with my friends so I bring my friends with me no to sit in some queue and randomly queue to play an MMO. IF I WANTED THAT I WOULD PLAY D3, if I wanted to play a game in a shoe box I would play Neverwinter Nights 1/2 in single player mode.
Again a Group Focused MMO will do better than a Single player MMORPG.
The problem is the games are DESIGNED for solo play up until the end game. It used to be about the journey, now it is all about the destination. You people don't get that 99% of MMO's are now this design, and some of us are not happy about that. If it were 50/50 we would have no issue with it. The only reason we are complaining is because the new MMO crowd wants solo play and the devs are catering to that group.
I do NOT want to force YOU to do anything, I would simply like some games with the design I like to be made.
Exactly. If people don't want to group, they can play the games where they don't have to. Arguing that we can simply find a group in a game based around solo play or trudge through the solo play to get to the group content are missing the point. When you remove that journey, you aren't just making the game easier, you are choosing an entirely different philosophy for designing your game that renders the experience as nothing more than a trivial, short-lived endeavor.
Which games? Most I've played have both solo and group content to level. SWTOR for example, I've leveled a number of characters to max doing only group content. Falshpoints and the planet heroics.
Why would LFG tools exist in solo MMO's?
I think you are missing his point. Lets take WOW for Example. There are many people who just quest to Max level and never step foot into an instance. When they get to end game and start grouping up. Guess what they do not know how to play their class and are completely lost about their role. Now you can use the LFD tool in WOW to group up and just run in groups endlessly. Here is the problem Instances in WOW only teach you to group up the Mobs and AOE them down as fast as possible. No kill orders no mechanics. The bosses are all tank and spank with very little mechanics. Take this person that gets to end game and does all the same stuff. Now if Raid bosses and raid trash are not this easy this player does not know their role. Hell WOW made it so you can buy a 90 and have no knowledge on your role in game at all. So really the Journey of an MMO has been lost.
Now I will go to my favorite MMO that people love to trash. Why? Because it forces grouping. How does it force grouping? Well the quest chain forces you to run instances to progress through the game. Now they do have what is called the Dungeon Finder tool which is LFD in WOW, Plus they designed a tool called Party finder to find people on your server. So they made GROUPING easier however you still have to do some of it.
Now the early dungeons force you to learn Kill orders because if you dont the instance takes a lot longer to do, Also you could pull off a tank because in FFXIV Aggro on a take is not like WOW where if you hit the mob once he is on you the end. In FFXIV Tanks must manage Aggro and if DPS are splitting their damage or even doing AOE damage tanks will have issues holding aggro. Not saying they cannot if they are really good however its tougher. You also learn in FFXIV that you can CC mobs making it easier on the healer. A Black Mage could sleep several targets making the run very smooth. Its not forced but again it makes things easier. Also the bosses have mechanics you cannot ignore, if you do you will wipe.
How is this good one ask. Well I done 4 End Game Trials with myself and my wife and 6 random pugs. Now we had some wipes in this pugs however in FFXIV Pugs are not like WOW pugs, they dont bitch and throw fits if you wipe once, you do get the random ass hole but they are not as bad as WOW. Now in these Trials I lead and explained what people had to do, with people understanding their JOB/ROLE they perform very well and all 4 trials we completed with full on pugs. Yes we had a few learning wipes however people knowing that grouping is a part of the game, did it as a part of the journey end up in my experience a better players at end game. Yes the content is nerfed however A Black Mage who has grouped during the leveling process knows that Fire 1 and Fire 3 are Single target abilities and should be used during single target phases. The same Black Mage knows that during AOE phases they use Fire 2. The same Mage knows hey if they can sleep 1 of 3 adds on the off tank do it because it makes the run smoother.
When you are pushed to group sometimes as a part of the leveling journey players and where group structure must be used to complete encounters these players are much better of in the game than what many MMOs have become today. Again I am not saying Grouping all the time, I am talking Grouping as a part of the journey of leveling makes for a better end game player.
I'm not missing the point. Your example is not a problem with newer MMO's. People solo'd to max in the older games. The gamers who did then want to do the group content/raids and such but don't know the mechanics.
I'm just confused why it's apparently a newer mmo problem when soloing was prevalent in UO, EQ and SWG?
How so? All the MOBAs are not of this design. All the pvp-only or e-sport MMOs are not of this design. Even pve games like warframe is not of this design (you can group level).
Lets talk about SWG and UO because I played both for years, EQ I never really got into. I also hope you dont mind I cleaned up a lot of the quotes.
First lets look at UO and SWG. UO you built up skills to be able to take on Harder Monsters, however some classes like a Warrior wound never take on a Balron Solo, heck even a Demon would be a bit much for a Warrior. Demons could be killed if you were a Warrior however some luck played into it. Now If you were fighting demons with a Bard or a Tamer well Demons would be easy to kill however Balrons would still prove a tough fight even for 7x GM Tamers and Bards. Now if you were with a warrior friend taking on a Demon and you were a warrior you could cross heal each other and the Demon would die. If you and another Tamer took on a Balron and both had White Wryms you could both heal which ever Wrym took damage faster and a Balron was no trouble. We can then talk about Crafters well they played alone. Well yes however many of them had friends that would help out around areas where they would mine or cut down trees. I remember killing Water Eleys on a Ship while my friend who wanted to level a maul was farming Ore around the mountain north of Minoc.
Next lets look at SWG. In SWG there too they had master classes that were good at certain types of mobs in the world players could kill. Take A Commando for instance, (Which I was one) We could easily take down AT-STs in less than 10 seconds with a Rocket Launcher that was made well by a crafter. However I remember getting owned by Tuskin Raiders and Rancor. My friend who was a Teras Kasi for a while use to own Tuskin Raiders. I have seen Beastmasters own Rancors. And this is ALL before they put in the 3 stat buff into the game making all players over powered. So before these buffs players played together often in the world when going into dangerous places and they brought friends that can help them do what they wanted. Also add in when you went to kill a player made base you needed different classes to slice terminals to blow up the base. Now again if you want to talk crafters I was on many crafters list to message me to help them put down their harvesters because when you were a crafter in the game you had 0 chance of surviving an encounter with a weak monster and if you could get a 80% or higher location for your mats especially on a very good mat guess what you made friends to help you do so.
Now I just gave you examples of how even these games there was a lot of grouping. Not grouping for instances grouping to help each other achieve common goals. Or for a craftsmen to get the mats they he needed and would likely sell his crafted items to hired help at cheaper rates. Everything I am describing is GROUP play, not forced group play but GROUP PLAY that makes it so you cannot possible do everything in game yourself.
Anyway lets look at Today's MMOs. Everyone since WOW (except AA) has launched in a themepark setup with instances a part of the game as well as end game. The way they are built to be Instanced base both during leveling up and end game. They are not designed for 1 player to do all the content themselves. They are designed for GROUPS to work together to clear this content. If you want content designed for that, Diablo1/2/3, Neverwinter nights 1/2 and a whole host of Single player games are designed for you the Worlds Hero with gods giving you more power than they have so you can beat anything you can alone. Or in neverwinter nights' case you take a party you fully control and your group that you control are the heroes. So Here is a Question Why should an MMO be designed exactly like a Single player game? The answer it should NOT there are games out there on cheaper budgets with no operational cost that can give Single player content better.
Now I will give you that there were people who played solo. Soloing also limited these players in UO and SWG. You didnt see these people killing ancient wyrms alone or doing Champion spawns alone. For example people who did champion spawns would party up so people could heal them easier than clicking on their avatar in game. Granted it was not as organized as 40 man raids were. Or in SWG before the God like buff they gave out, there would be teams of us that would go and blow up an Imperial base. Granted it was a few of us who played together and then a handful who was apart of the alliance we were in but we grouped up for that content.
Now lets get down to the CORE problem with people who want to SOLO. It comes back to they want to be like they are in a single player game. They need to rely on no one so any Raid even current raid content should be able to be done as 1 player. Or they should be able to craft anything and never need to interact with another player for mats. Lets even take into account the people that bitched for the SWG Stat Buff. They were mad because the world was dangerous and it required other people to go into dangerous areas of the planets. Its not about having Solo content, its about people wanting to be god like; like they can be in single player games.
Barely a page in and someone actually said "Back in my day.."
Good god, man.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
FFXIV:ARR has about as much forced grouping as WoW, ESO, Wildstar, or any other WoW forumula MMO. Which is about 90% solo 10% group. Hardly a group focused MMO.
The past page of posts has been made up data, anecdotes and amazingly crazy revisionist history. Trying to bring facts into the argument won't help at this point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And on the activity feed this thread was at the top followed by one looking for a solo MMO.
Priceless.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
The real problem as I see it is that a single player game will offer a better solo experience since it actually can change the world just for you. No MMO can ever do that.
It can however open up for rather good group action and since MMOs are more expensive to make than most single player games (if not all) they should focus on the stuff they actually can ace.
Adding some solocontent for odd hours is fine, particularly exploration but if you add too much you could just skip the multiplayer thing and make an awesome single player game instead.
I made a post a few days ago that was full of actual statistics about MOBA's and F2P MMO's and no one responded to it.
Obviously MMORPG posters want the anecdotal rather than the rational, but thats a different topic.
I wont disagree that F2P is more lucrative for developers, in fact ive been saying this entire time that big money/big corps love F2P because its allows them to punish the players who dont spend money and reward those that do to such extents that if you dont pay for the 25 Dollar Cosmetics, you dont get the Stimpack EXP boost for 5.99, you dont upgrade to the sub-pack to get all the additiona content, you mid as well not play.
MMO's used to have a standard fare 15.99 billing price, it was all inclusive and didnt stress out one half of the player base if they didnt pay up, it put everyone on the same playing field.
But thats what it is, they are praising the individual in a game based around the idea of collective non-cooperation and to me that just doesnt make sense, why not just make it a single player game then and charge 50$ and be done with it?
No FFXIV has more Forced grouping than WOW or the other MMOs because if you do not progress your storyline there are large parts of the content that will not open for you. And the Main Storyline you must do and there are required instances which are a part of that main storyline. Now Its not a ton of grouping. However with that said they did add in other content that is group based. GuildHeist, Trails and the preiskin t maps which require 8 people to do, and lets not forget the A and S ranked hunts. So there is more Group content but not forced grouping. And add to that all the jobs and their abilities really focus around being in a Party. AKA Shield Oath and Sword Oath, while these can help in solo their primary design is group.
While FFXIV is not a Group only MMO it is more group focused than WOW.
FFXIV being P2P with a cash shop that is not in my face ever, and being focused on grouping is why I play FFXIV. I know its not for everyone. Especially people who like Action Combat or Fast paced combat. In any event its for a sub set of MMO players and its a good game
Without all the corporate ass holes looking to get every last penny out of players.
Believe it or not, but there are many games out there that are more solo-oriented than SW:TOR. There's actually still things like world elites and group quests in TOR, while that's long gone in games like WoW.
The group choices system is great when you're playing with friends. Though I admit that it's very flawed when strangers wonna rush the content.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Yes it is. I am having a good time with pugs in FFXIV, and this is like the only MMO I had a good time with pugs in the last 4+ years. The Core Problem is how we look at games now. Its about how fast we get to our goal, not our Journey there.
No one is stressed out except maybe you, and you don't even play the game. If you aren't paying and aren't playing, then there is some other issue, and from your posts it seems like "everyone is having fun but they aren't playing with me, therefore they must not really be having fun so design games to force them to play with me."
"oh, and don't let anyone play for free because that's somehow bad."
And that's pretty scary.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agreed, I never understood some of these arguements, okay I know money is important and with the amount they spent there should have been more. whatever. That's a topic for a whole other thread
People act like the amount of group content is new or something. I've dabbled in UO, I played a lot of EQ (back in the day around Velious era) I touched a bit on the other games including Anarchy online and such. At the start lets take EQ for example. I'd start out killing a few rats I don't do this group I do this solo, I'd sell their hides for copper. Once I heard the ding sound I'd practice a little more on them to raise my skills then I'd go to skeletons. Every now and then I'd hail an NPC and get a quest to get X number of pelts or whatever. While hunting I would save these pieces of loot and turn them in for an armor piece, gold and some XP. At a certain point I would group to kill some tougher monsters for a while but eventually that group would disperse and I'd be back to hunting wolves or whatever was around my level. So what do i do now in these later MMOs? I start off hunting droids getting loot, I'd run across a quest that asks me to get a certain amount of loot. While hunting I save these pieces and I turn in the loot for an armor piece, credits and some XP, later I group with some people to take down a tougher group of monsters for a while. The group disperses and I go back to hunting Jedi's and such. How is this any different in later games then older games. Granted you do a lot of group stuff later in EQ and the like but surprise you do a lot of group stuff later in SW:ToR as well. Okay you do a lot of soloing in SW:ToR but I did a lot of soloing in EQ and I was a warrior and before that I was a shaman. Really looking at it, I did a lot of what i'm doing now (not sure thats a good thing) but it really hasn't changed all that much, i'm sorry for people who think it has, but you soloed at the beginning, you grouped every now and then, and at the end you ran whatever was end game content, which is exactly what you are doing now, yet somehow it's a problem.
Also living breathing world (and yes this is sort of off topic,) how is SW:ToR any less a living world than other games? Most NPC don't move in Tera, They don't really move in WoW, they really don't do anything in EQ or EQ2 for that matter. What I played of GW2 most NPC just stand around (yes shocker I played a little bit of that game, got bored of it really quickly though so can't comment too much on it), in fact in most games the NPCs just stand there and don't do anything. Yeah I know NPC guards and things move around but they do that in SW:ToR as well. I just don't get this arguement at all. SW:TOR looks as living breathing as nearly every MMO i've ever seen.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.