TBH it doesn't sound elitist to me at all, and like it or not the majority of the time people whining about balance really are bad just like they said. This is especially true in games geared towards group PvP play. Everyone starts throwing fits immediately because theyre class cant do X that this other class can do even though their class is better at Y than that class. Especially when it comes to tank and healer type classes in a PvP situation. They will complain that their class cant kill stuff as fast as the high damage classes and insist on having their class turned into a hybrid heal/tank/dps class instead of having the common sense to say "Hey im a pretty damn good healer. Maybe I should make some friends with some people who play damage classes and focus on keeping them alive while they do what theyre supposed to do."
Another big issue / group of complainers is regarding ranged vs melee and people who are too slow in the head to learn to play those separate roles properly and do things like use terrain to their advantage. You have ranged players whining that they cant just stand still and go toe to toe vs a melee class instead of learning how to kite, use their CC, use terrain, etc to put distance between them and the melees. Then you also have the melees who whine when a ranged player DOES do those things and kills them because they thought they should be able to just charge in full speed while already getting shot from max range by an archer and just take 50 arrows to the face without being hindered in any way and instantly kill the archer. Theyre not bright enough to do things like use objects to break line of sight so the archer can't hit them or sneak up on the archer to get the jump on them before they have a chance to start kiting, etc.
Of course that's not to say a lot of games dont have some sort of balance issues. My point is that the majority of players don't actually understand balance, especially when it comes to group play instead of 1v1, and that it's become pretty common for those balance issues to arise BECAUSE of people complaining about imbalances in the first place (such as a healer who suddenly becomes capable of dealing massive DPS because people complained they couldnt kill stuff).
I can think of few places where this is more frequently the case than gaming.
Authorities are people and people aren't always correct even when they have a lot of certificates on their wall. Who knows how much they've been influenced by politics and are just backing the company line, even if they know it's sometimes wrong, they back it cause they want to keep their paychecks coming in. Never blindly except authority, ask questions and do your own research.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I think you are mistaking elitism for common sense. This doesnt scream elitist in the slightest to me. Basically, its saying if you behave like you have a low IQ dont complain about the game b/c its not the games fought you lack a basic intelligence, and I couldnt agree more.
For example:
I've been playing a lot of LoL lately and people will feed 4+ kills in lane and still think they can safely 1v1 the person that has been annihilating them all game. Its not because they are OP, its because you are quite simply stupid.
But I mashed all the buttons, why am I not winning! Other guy must be cheating or is OP! Devs make me win or I'm quitting!
Originally posted by Octagon7711 I wonder how they know who's playing the game. Some twelve year old playing their first MMO, or someone that's physically challenged, or someone in their later years. Do they assume players are exactly like them and so should play exactly like them?
From what they've said, they are assuming their fans are older, experienced players with a particular mindset when it comes to PVP, politics, and player conflict. They said from the start that this game isn't for everyone.
Obviously anyone is able to purchase the game and play it, doesn't mean everyone will be good at it, enjoy it, or walk away happy. Being physically challenged is a good point and some games do their best to be accessible, others simply aren't designed that way and it is what it is.
Sounds like they aren't going to cave to some and lower the bar or water down their vision to pull in more fans. They are willing to set the bar higher and have a smaller customer base. Will it work? We'll see, but I hope so.
Seems like he has struck a cord with a bunch of bad players on here. I guess that was what he was aiming for and has accomplished it. I'm glad they are being "in your face" with what they are trying to do, will keep the crying from bad players after the games launches.
What does balance mean?Do you really want each class and build to have 100% identical numbers?So you hit with any weapon and it always hits the same?Every healing mechanic returns identical healing numbers?The combat and game would big time suck.
While not 100% identical, this is pretty much what mmorpgs have been for 10+ years. Apparently people like it, but to me that is the problem, "people" as in the masses shouldn't dictate how every single game is designed.
I was playing online pvp likely before most developers even knew what it was and how it worked and did not work.
True for many devs, but the names behind CF probably have a tad bit more experience than you in playing and creating PVP games.
Show me ONE rpg pvp game that makes maps designed for it?Then ask yourself are those maps actually any good?
It sounds like many people in this thread didn't actually watch the video to get the context in which the quote was said.
He was talking about balance and said that each archetype will have strengths and weaknesses. If a player plays to those strengths, they will be more successful than if they don't.
If a rogue type player doesn't use stealth to pick his fights and get the element of surprise, and instead runs up on the front line every time and loses, is that a problem with game balance or with the player?
Good for Todd having the balls to actually say it's the player.
Seems like he has struck a cord with a bunch of bad players on here. I guess that was what he was aiming for and has accomplished it. I'm glad they are being "in your face" with what they are trying to do, will keep the crying from bad players after the games launches.
While that is too much to expect, I'm glad they are taking this approach from the start. Funny seeing people saying they are completely dismissing this game because of one comment (taken out of context). Clearly they are not the intended customer and hopefully more comments like this come to thin out those that want something they are designing and those just looking for another game to whine about because it isn't what they want or they aren't good at it.
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
I don't think it means that at all.
I remember in morrowind I came across a tomb outiside of seyda need and I got my ass handed to me. I tried it several more times and couldn't beat it (and I wasn't about to change the difficulty slider). I went and found some things to sell, got a better weapon, some better armor and a health potion and was able to do it.
That's what it means.
If you find a situation that you sought out which is challenging but you can't beat it make better preparations.
I'm perfectly ok with failing in games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It sounds like many people in this thread didn't actually watch the video to get the context in which the quote was said.
He was talking about balance and said that each archetype will have strengths and weaknesses. If a player plays to those strengths, they will be more successful than if they don't.
If a rogue type player doesn't use stealth to pick his fights and get the element of surprise, and instead runs up on the front line every time and loses, is that a problem with game balance or with the player?
Good for Todd having the balls to actually say it's the player.
A lot of people didn't read past the subject line of Fury's email, either. It's odd to see industry veterans repeat a mistake like this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
I don't think it means that at all.
I remember in morrowind I came across a tomb outiside of seyda need and I got my ass handed to me. I tried it several more times and couldn't beat it (and I wasn't about to change the difficulty slider). I went and found some things to sell, got a better weapon, some better armor and a health potion and was able to do it.
That's what it means.
If you find a situation that you sought out which is challenging but you can't beat it make better preparations.
I'm perfectly ok with failing in games.
I agree. Early ESO at the end of the quest lines the boss fights were epic (not the rewards, just the fights). I got beat several times and had to reevaluate my strategy and tactics, the weapons I was using, and the skills I had on my skill-bar. Eventually I beat them and I was a better player for it. I was a little disappointed when I returned and found bosses so watered down. I was all ready for a tough fight but they dropped like regular npc's.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
This is EXACTLY why I will have NO PART in an OWPVP game. Ruins the game to start with, and like being PC, it only caters to a select few. 4-6 months this game is dead...if it takes THAT long.
Originally posted by bentrim This is EXACTLY why I will have NO PART in an OWPVP game. Ruins the game to start with, and like being PC, it only caters to a select few. 4-6 months this game is dead...if it takes THAT long.
Open world PvP is great fun when its done right, which it rarely is. This really has nothing to do with open world PvP tho does it? It's all aspects of the game. People are bad they blame the game and devs not themselves, normally this results in a boring experience for people that actually want a challenge and not a hand holding experience. It appears The Crowfall devs have different plans and won't give in to bad players pleas for change which can only be a good thing in my book.
The conversation was about balance. The devs are not balancing their game based on 1v1, they are focused on group composition. They want classes to be good at what they're supposed to be good at and have weaknesses where they're supposed to.
He was saying if you're an Assassin stealth type who keeps running head first into a warrior archetype who is purposed for full frontal combat, you're bad and need to get better/smarter at what you're archetype is, not beat devs in the head about class balance.
In that context he's 100% right and I applaud them for at least taking a stance in that regard.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Originally posted by bentrim This is EXACTLY why I will have NO PART in an OWPVP game. Ruins the game to start with, and like being PC, it only caters to a select few. 4-6 months this game is dead...if it takes THAT long.
You're clearly not a PVP person so honestly anytime you see "Crowfall" in the header you should avoid at all costs. No point going into a car dealership if you hate cars right?
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Jesus fucking Christ. What is this thread about? Is it about class balance? Homogenisation? Or elitist vs. casual mindsets? Do we want to balance around 1v1 ? Where does this path lead us? Should the devs make everything easily accesible, class mechanic wise, so all can master their class right away? Is this strategy fun in the long run? Should'nt or should they even worry about 'the long run' since most players are like nomads moving on. Some people like to get challenged, people are being challenged at different levels of resistance, some are maybe not really here to get challenged at all.
Maybe we need to be aware who we are, and they who they are and what game they are making. I think, hope, the market is mature enough to support 'one' direction for a game. Like making a game that actually Challenge people with mmorpg experience and with a desire to Think and learn yes and fail - there is really less joy without failing. It really is possible to relax for some while learning, and failing, even when they are presented with significant resistance, disturbances.
As for the vod, seriously to get stirred up over this?
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
BUT...... BUT..... I thought this was a Sandbox game? Where playing how you want is by definition the name of the game? If it isn't going to be like this then by nature it isn't a sandbox game and the Devs need to put in place guides and linear experience to bread crumb the player base down the correct "RIGHT" path.
I think this is further proof this game and studio are clueless when it comes to game design. I wish them all the luck in the world but I am almost positive it will fail beyond all imagination.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
He very clearly lays out the context of his statement, to paraphrase, if you try to do something you're not designed to do, and you keep trying it, your failure is on you, not on the game design.
Nothing wrong with that statement at all, perhaps the delivery lacks some tact, but I think that was intentional, giving the statement a bit more impact.
All of the elitist comments are pure BS, defensive whining from players who don't like to think they might not be that good.
Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.
Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.
...
I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1. These guy really get it. However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.
What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle."
I agree still context is key.
Let's crucify devs over nothing.... yep that sums up a segment of gamer forums
See my last post, I was not doing that. Thank you for accusing though. It is their own fault, they sent the email as that, no video or context included. It was a random quote.
I am not accusing you of anything, sorry if it came across that way.
You are being pretty resonable at this even as an OP
Apology accepted, appreciate it.
I will say (not in reply you but in general) that even if the context showed something else here....sure did bring a lot of elitist posters out of the woodwork.
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
BUT...... BUT..... I thought this was a Sandbox game? Where playing how you want is by definition the name of the game? If it isn't going to be like this then by nature it isn't a sandbox game and the Devs need to put in place guides and linear experience to bread crumb the player base down the correct "RIGHT" path.
I think this is further proof this game and studio are clueless when it comes to game design. I wish them all the luck in the world but I am almost positive it will fail beyond all imagination.
So sandbox now = you can be a completely terrible player who doesnt think about what their character is built to do and just run around being equal to the better players by just mashing random buttons and not using strategy or mastering specific combat styles at all or learning to work properly with your groups? Very interesting.
Well damn. I guess every other sandbox in existence did it wrong since they had good players who mastered their builds and altered their playstyles based on who they were fighting and just kicked the shit out of bad players.
BTW, you CAN play how you want. It just won't be very effective. Just like in any game ever made. If I was playing a sandbox and built my character to be a a heavily armored melee / tanky build, then went around trying to fight in light armor with a bow at long range with no archery skills it wouldnt work very well would it? Sure I can choose to do it. But i'll suck as an archer. Just like if I built a glass cannon character with high dps and low survivability, then went charging into zergs headfirst trying to tank multiple players or trying to tank a boss. Could I choose to do it? Sure. But im going to die, a lot.
Sandbox has nothing to do with the people sucking at what their characters are built to do.
BUT...... BUT..... I thought this was a Sandbox game? Where playing how you want is by definition the name of the game? If it isn't going to be like this then by nature it isn't a sandbox game and the Devs need to put in place guides and linear experience to bread crumb the player base down the correct "RIGHT" path.
I think this is further proof this game and studio are clueless when it comes to game design. I wish them all the luck in the world but I am almost positive it will fail beyond all imagination.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier.
Despite this sounding like common sense to me, it is exactly what "the masses" have been doing for years and why so many games start out decent (or not) and turn into watered down boring experiences. Has nothing to do with being elite or right/wrong, but rather folks trying to take everything and make it fit some imaginary ideal of theirs that ends up usually being crap.
There is no definition of what a sandbox is, it is a empty buzzword and can mean any number of things.
Regardless, they haven't been hyping it as a "sandbox," don't believe the word is on their Kickstarter and on the actually site you'll see this:
Crowfall is an entirely new game concept: part MMO, part large-scale strategy game. With time-limited campaigns, destructible environments and player-run kingdoms, it is far more open than a "theme park" game and much more impactful than a "sandbox."
They might have used the term here and there, but doesn't seem to be there go to "we're a sandbox so you'll love us" pitch that other companies are riding on.
To me, their statements and clear vision show they know exactly what they want and are doing it. They aren't catering to the masses nor shoehorning themselves into tiny boxes to match up exactly with some random definition of what they are or aren't.
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
BUT...... BUT..... I thought this was a Sandbox game? Where playing how you want is by definition the name of the game? If it isn't going to be like this then by nature it isn't a sandbox game and the Devs need to put in place guides and linear experience to bread crumb the player base down the correct "RIGHT" path.
I think this is further proof this game and studio are clueless when it comes to game design. I wish them all the luck in the world but I am almost positive it will fail beyond all imagination.
Learning the strengths and weakness of a class, is a part of playing a class, it has nothing to do with being a sandbox or not. WTH? Were you impaired when you wrote this? That would at least explain not seeing the holes in this "argument" (you can drive a bulldozer through) before hitting "post".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by hallucigenocide maybe being blunt helps? PvP players tend to be an unhappy bunch that refuse to admit that they might not be as good as they think they are. just look at any pvp forum and it is like "i blame this, i blame that, i blame everything but me"
That might be true, but to be honest are most MMO PvP fights decided on gear and level, not player skill.
When the majority of the fights is so onesided that you automatically win or loose no matter how good or bad you play the problem is not with the player but the game itself.
It is surely true that some players blame everyone but themselves when they loose but I think the game mechanics themselves make players pretty crappy, whenever you can't beat something you just level until it is incredible easy and then steamroll it, if PvP is hard then you attack easy targets instead of learning how to play.
PvP MMOs need to create new mechanics further from the PvE ones and focus more on rewarding people for playing thegame well and less for grinding XP and gear. That said, XP and gear should matter but far less then they do in most MMOs.
Comments
TBH it doesn't sound elitist to me at all, and like it or not the majority of the time people whining about balance really are bad just like they said. This is especially true in games geared towards group PvP play. Everyone starts throwing fits immediately because theyre class cant do X that this other class can do even though their class is better at Y than that class. Especially when it comes to tank and healer type classes in a PvP situation. They will complain that their class cant kill stuff as fast as the high damage classes and insist on having their class turned into a hybrid heal/tank/dps class instead of having the common sense to say "Hey im a pretty damn good healer. Maybe I should make some friends with some people who play damage classes and focus on keeping them alive while they do what theyre supposed to do."
Another big issue / group of complainers is regarding ranged vs melee and people who are too slow in the head to learn to play those separate roles properly and do things like use terrain to their advantage. You have ranged players whining that they cant just stand still and go toe to toe vs a melee class instead of learning how to kite, use their CC, use terrain, etc to put distance between them and the melees. Then you also have the melees who whine when a ranged player DOES do those things and kills them because they thought they should be able to just charge in full speed while already getting shot from max range by an archer and just take 50 arrows to the face without being hindered in any way and instantly kill the archer. Theyre not bright enough to do things like use objects to break line of sight so the archer can't hit them or sneak up on the archer to get the jump on them before they have a chance to start kiting, etc.
Of course that's not to say a lot of games dont have some sort of balance issues. My point is that the majority of players don't actually understand balance, especially when it comes to group play instead of 1v1, and that it's become pretty common for those balance issues to arise BECAUSE of people complaining about imbalances in the first place (such as a healer who suddenly becomes capable of dealing massive DPS because people complained they couldnt kill stuff).
Authorities are people and people aren't always correct even when they have a lot of certificates on their wall. Who knows how much they've been influenced by politics and are just backing the company line, even if they know it's sometimes wrong, they back it cause they want to keep their paychecks coming in. Never blindly except authority, ask questions and do your own research.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
But I mashed all the buttons, why am I not winning! Other guy must be cheating or is OP! Devs make me win or I'm quitting!
From what they've said, they are assuming their fans are older, experienced players with a particular mindset when it comes to PVP, politics, and player conflict. They said from the start that this game isn't for everyone.
Obviously anyone is able to purchase the game and play it, doesn't mean everyone will be good at it, enjoy it, or walk away happy. Being physically challenged is a good point and some games do their best to be accessible, others simply aren't designed that way and it is what it is.
Sounds like they aren't going to cave to some and lower the bar or water down their vision to pull in more fans. They are willing to set the bar higher and have a smaller customer base. Will it work? We'll see, but I hope so.
Seems like he has struck a cord with a bunch of bad players on here. I guess that was what he was aiming for and has accomplished it. I'm glad they are being "in your face" with what they are trying to do, will keep the crying from bad players after the games launches.
While not 100% identical, this is pretty much what mmorpgs have been for 10+ years. Apparently people like it, but to me that is the problem, "people" as in the masses shouldn't dictate how every single game is designed.
True for many devs, but the names behind CF probably have a tad bit more experience than you in playing and creating PVP games.
DAOC?
It sounds like many people in this thread didn't actually watch the video to get the context in which the quote was said.
He was talking about balance and said that each archetype will have strengths and weaknesses. If a player plays to those strengths, they will be more successful than if they don't.
If a rogue type player doesn't use stealth to pick his fights and get the element of surprise, and instead runs up on the front line every time and loses, is that a problem with game balance or with the player?
Good for Todd having the balls to actually say it's the player.
While that is too much to expect, I'm glad they are taking this approach from the start. Funny seeing people saying they are completely dismissing this game because of one comment (taken out of context). Clearly they are not the intended customer and hopefully more comments like this come to thin out those that want something they are designing and those just looking for another game to whine about because it isn't what they want or they aren't good at it.
I don't think it means that at all.
I remember in morrowind I came across a tomb outiside of seyda need and I got my ass handed to me. I tried it several more times and couldn't beat it (and I wasn't about to change the difficulty slider). I went and found some things to sell, got a better weapon, some better armor and a health potion and was able to do it.
That's what it means.
If you find a situation that you sought out which is challenging but you can't beat it make better preparations.
I'm perfectly ok with failing in games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A lot of people didn't read past the subject line of Fury's email, either. It's odd to see industry veterans repeat a mistake like this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree. Early ESO at the end of the quest lines the boss fights were epic (not the rewards, just the fights). I got beat several times and had to reevaluate my strategy and tactics, the weapons I was using, and the skills I had on my skill-bar. Eventually I beat them and I was a better player for it. I was a little disappointed when I returned and found bosses so watered down. I was all ready for a tough fight but they dropped like regular npc's.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Open world PvP is great fun when its done right, which it rarely is. This really has nothing to do with open world PvP tho does it? It's all aspects of the game. People are bad they blame the game and devs not themselves, normally this results in a boring experience for people that actually want a challenge and not a hand holding experience. It appears The Crowfall devs have different plans and won't give in to bad players pleas for change which can only be a good thing in my book.
The conversation was about balance. The devs are not balancing their game based on 1v1, they are focused on group composition. They want classes to be good at what they're supposed to be good at and have weaknesses where they're supposed to.
He was saying if you're an Assassin stealth type who keeps running head first into a warrior archetype who is purposed for full frontal combat, you're bad and need to get better/smarter at what you're archetype is, not beat devs in the head about class balance.
In that context he's 100% right and I applaud them for at least taking a stance in that regard.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You're clearly not a PVP person so honestly anytime you see "Crowfall" in the header you should avoid at all costs. No point going into a car dealership if you hate cars right?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jesus fucking Christ. What is this thread about? Is it about class balance? Homogenisation? Or elitist vs. casual mindsets? Do we want to balance around 1v1 ? Where does this path lead us? Should the devs make everything easily accesible, class mechanic wise, so all can master their class right away? Is this strategy fun in the long run? Should'nt or should they even worry about 'the long run' since most players are like nomads moving on. Some people like to get challenged, people are being challenged at different levels of resistance, some are maybe not really here to get challenged at all.
Maybe we need to be aware who we are, and they who they are and what game they are making. I think, hope, the market is mature enough to support 'one' direction for a game. Like making a game that actually Challenge people with mmorpg experience and with a desire to Think and learn yes and fail - there is really less joy without failing. It really is possible to relax for some while learning, and failing, even when they are presented with significant resistance, disturbances.
As for the vod, seriously to get stirred up over this?
BUT...... BUT..... I thought this was a Sandbox game? Where playing how you want is by definition the name of the game? If it isn't going to be like this then by nature it isn't a sandbox game and the Devs need to put in place guides and linear experience to bread crumb the player base down the correct "RIGHT" path.
I think this is further proof this game and studio are clueless when it comes to game design. I wish them all the luck in the world but I am almost positive it will fail beyond all imagination.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
He very clearly lays out the context of his statement, to paraphrase, if you try to do something you're not designed to do, and you keep trying it, your failure is on you, not on the game design.
Nothing wrong with that statement at all, perhaps the delivery lacks some tact, but I think that was intentional, giving the statement a bit more impact.
All of the elitist comments are pure BS, defensive whining from players who don't like to think they might not be that good.
T
Apology accepted, appreciate it.
I will say (not in reply you but in general) that even if the context showed something else here....sure did bring a lot of elitist posters out of the woodwork.
So sandbox now = you can be a completely terrible player who doesnt think about what their character is built to do and just run around being equal to the better players by just mashing random buttons and not using strategy or mastering specific combat styles at all or learning to work properly with your groups? Very interesting.
Well damn. I guess every other sandbox in existence did it wrong since they had good players who mastered their builds and altered their playstyles based on who they were fighting and just kicked the shit out of bad players.
BTW, you CAN play how you want. It just won't be very effective. Just like in any game ever made. If I was playing a sandbox and built my character to be a a heavily armored melee / tanky build, then went around trying to fight in light armor with a bow at long range with no archery skills it wouldnt work very well would it? Sure I can choose to do it. But i'll suck as an archer. Just like if I built a glass cannon character with high dps and low survivability, then went charging into zergs headfirst trying to tank multiple players or trying to tank a boss. Could I choose to do it? Sure. But im going to die, a lot.
Sandbox has nothing to do with the people sucking at what their characters are built to do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier.
Despite this sounding like common sense to me, it is exactly what "the masses" have been doing for years and why so many games start out decent (or not) and turn into watered down boring experiences. Has nothing to do with being elite or right/wrong, but rather folks trying to take everything and make it fit some imaginary ideal of theirs that ends up usually being crap.
There is no definition of what a sandbox is, it is a empty buzzword and can mean any number of things.
Regardless, they haven't been hyping it as a "sandbox," don't believe the word is on their Kickstarter and on the actually site you'll see this:
Crowfall is an entirely new game concept: part MMO, part large-scale strategy game. With time-limited campaigns, destructible environments and player-run kingdoms, it is far more open than a "theme park" game and much more impactful than a "sandbox."
They might have used the term here and there, but doesn't seem to be there go to "we're a sandbox so you'll love us" pitch that other companies are riding on.
To me, their statements and clear vision show they know exactly what they want and are doing it. They aren't catering to the masses nor shoehorning themselves into tiny boxes to match up exactly with some random definition of what they are or aren't.
Learning the strengths and weakness of a class, is a part of playing a class, it has nothing to do with being a sandbox or not. WTH? Were you impaired when you wrote this? That would at least explain not seeing the holes in this "argument" (you can drive a bulldozer through) before hitting "post".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That might be true, but to be honest are most MMO PvP fights decided on gear and level, not player skill.
When the majority of the fights is so onesided that you automatically win or loose no matter how good or bad you play the problem is not with the player but the game itself.
It is surely true that some players blame everyone but themselves when they loose but I think the game mechanics themselves make players pretty crappy, whenever you can't beat something you just level until it is incredible easy and then steamroll it, if PvP is hard then you attack easy targets instead of learning how to play.
PvP MMOs need to create new mechanics further from the PvE ones and focus more on rewarding people for playing thegame well and less for grinding XP and gear. That said, XP and gear should matter but far less then they do in most MMOs.
The games make the players.