I'm sorry but If you are really upset because Todd J. Coleman told a hypothetical player that was constructed as an example to illustrate poor decision making "You're a bad player and you need to get better" then the problem is with you.
Whether its true or false is honestly irrelevant. The real thing about the statement is how it was conveyed. If they care about press and public support, they could've conveyed the message differently, such as "Maybe players should utilize different tactics when encountering various situations." Less condescending that way regardless if the director meant it to be in that way or not.
How was he being condescending?
He gave an example of someone basically disregarding the game design and sucking because of it. If that isn't a bad player, what are they?
The comment was said in a video to fans who should have some clue about the game, team, and overall goals and it specifically was said with the devs chuckling and clearly not being super serious.
They didn't say "if you play this way you are a moron" (which wouldn't be too far off) or anything crazy offensive. Simply that if you play incorrectly, you aren't playing well which results in being a bad player.
Maybe "bad" is a naughty word now a days?
They could sugar coat comments and be technical, but so far their approach to fans as being actual people not mindless wallets has worked.
To me, if they spelled out common sense things such as your example comment, I would feel like they were being condescending by the fact that they think I or we as a whole are too dumb to know any better.
All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.
If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.
/flameon
Spot on. All you scrubbers are pathetic and mainly what is wrong with the world and the MMORPG-genre today.
All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.
If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.
/flameon
Spot on. All you scrubbers are pathetic and mainly what is wrong with the world and the MMORPG-genre today.
While I do think its a little lame to be offended by something like this. These two jerkoffs are a tad embarrassing.
People Need to learn to read again. I say this seriously. Go read some real books. Alot of people on these forums have forgotten or dont know how to interpret a statement. This statement to me is just simply a challenge of sorts. Even if its the headline for a newsletter. Its an attention grabber. It got your attention didnt it?
I saw the youtube video Months ago when he said that statement, and it was said in the perfect context. There was no elitism there. If you are a rouge, and you charge into battle vs 2 tank characters, and expect to win.. You are a bad player.. You cant label someone an elitist simply because they state the truth.
I never took the statement as elitism i took it simply as he/they making it sound like THEIR game does it so well that you are considered good or bad ONLY under their design systems. Without getting into a whole super long discussion again about pvp,i only need remind that this games does NOT do pvp correctly but then again no rpg does nor will they likely ever do it right.<p>
When i pvp i take it seriously but not THAT serious,i can still relax and just play for fun.However the serious side of me NEEDS every single last idea/system that makes pvp correct,By correct i mean as if i was really in a world looking to pvp,what would it be like,how would i want it to be. In saying that,the last thing i would want is to run around in the open spamming my hotkeys or mouse to engage in quality pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
'bad' players are obnoxious, or arrogant, elitist, rude, impatient, are interested in publicly expressing negative opinions about other players abilities etc. In short, same as real life, an unskilled person eith the right attitude > a skilled arse.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I did not read the whole thread, just the topic and original statement from OP. Maybe the OP was spamming appeals/emails because he is truly a bad player, keeps dieing because he has his lvl5 scout in a lvl 30 leveling zone and they finally got tired of it and sent him some hate mail.
I wish there was more developers with this mind set. Too many of them would have apologized and told they are doing their best to make an enjoyable gaming experience for everyone, blah-blah; like there wasn't enough such games already.
We don't need more games for everyone, we need decent games for certain groups of gamers (actually, even half-decent games would do at this point). Stop pleasing masses and make games that are worth playing!
There are more forms to PvP than the elitist style presented in this thread. In high school sports, my team didn't ridicule the other team when they lost, claiming they sucked. We always congratulated them on a good game and vice versa if we lost. That is the point trying to be made about Mr. Coleman's statement. PvP will always have a winning and a losing side. It's how BOTH sides react to the outcome that determines just what kind of community that game is focused on. If Crowfall is all about an elitist style approach to PvP, than that is exactly what I have no interest in. You can win a battle and never speak a word afterwards or you can chant "worldstar" the whole time like your some important person that everyone should pay attention to.
Big difference between your high school team and online gaming is this whole internet thing. Why some folks seem to not grasp why people act the way they do online is beyond me.
Lets pretend that nasty/violent rivalries don't exist in real sports...
I'm all for virtual sportsmanship and what not, but doesn't matter if you are playing a "hardcore" stab stab PVP game or AOL Checkers for ages 10+, people are simply crap to one another behind the keyboard and screen.
Regardless, the statement in question had little to nothing to do with this. Wasn't about showing others respect or not, but rather pointing out that their game isn't being designed around everyone is a winner mentality. Each class/role will have pros/cons and someone expecting a result that isn't possible due to the design is playing badly.
No different than if I knew the rules of Chess yet tried to use my Pawns like a Queen. If the creator of Chess sad I was bad, I wouldn't go cry about.
Funny thing is there are folks on both sides of the imaginary fence missing the point in this thread. The comment had no fence included.
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Odd he sent you the same exact statement found in his interview. I'm kinda thinking you didn't receive an email claiming such a thing. Anyways they described that not every class will be good at everything. Not saying your claim was invalid but maybe it is.
i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..
This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
So true, the amount of marketing these guys do is crazy, so much so that I can't find one example of it...
Ahahaha I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen any marketing from these guys since the KS campaign. Lots of videos of the progress they're making and the work they're doing, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
But... how do you really feel?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..
This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
So true, the amount of marketing these guys do is crazy, so much so that I can't find one example of it...
Ahahaha I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen any marketing from these guys since the KS campaign. Lots of videos of the progress they're making and the work they're doing, though.
Apparently progress updates are "marketing" and cost tons of money. Who knew.
Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
Proof that you and others react to things without taking a moment to look into the context.
If it wasn't for PVP, MMOs would long be dead. Not to say that PVP is done well the majority of the time, but competition vs others in one form or another keeps players coming back long after the PVE grind has become a chore.
Personally I find the "everyone is equal and a winner" to be more detrimental to gaming and life in general than whatever PVP can do. Watered down lowest common denominator design is what has produced one blah game after another. Not a surprise to me that "PVP" games as a whole totally dominate in the numbers department compared to "PVE" games (which there are few these days).
Really don't get the whole "elitist" comments, no where are they coming off as being superior to anyone else. Every single indie/crowdfunded game coming out is going for a niche crowd and wants to make a game a particular way for a particular group. Opposite of which is making a one size fits all experience that works so well... Guess some folks believe that if a game isn't specifically designed for them than it is terrible or something, but seems rather silly to me.
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
The sooner we (in the general sense) stop feeling the need to be handheld, the sooner we can start having better games.
What the email said is NOT elitist, and is infact a good mentallity to have when balancing a game. Game balance gets absolutely trashed when you start adjusting numbers (that may or may not be working) because people start complaining. The key part to the email is the context.
'If you immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak'
That is a conscious decision by the player, and the director is informing you that this is not a game designed around everyone being equal at all times.
If you read the email careful you realize that he's talking about willfully putting yourself in bad situations, not about winning or losing. He's not criticizing a player for losing. He's stating that players should learn to put themselves in better situations (within the game) before immediately crying OP. Something most players do in ALL games, and something that has actually ruined many decent PvP games (because devs made the mistake of listening to these people).
If you find that bit of truth offensive, you honestly should work on being more open minded / having a thicker skin. There's a huge difference between anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism / anti-truth, and most people use all of those interchangeably.
Comments
He gave an example of someone basically disregarding the game design and sucking because of it. If that isn't a bad player, what are they?
The comment was said in a video to fans who should have some clue about the game, team, and overall goals and it specifically was said with the devs chuckling and clearly not being super serious.
They didn't say "if you play this way you are a moron" (which wouldn't be too far off) or anything crazy offensive. Simply that if you play incorrectly, you aren't playing well which results in being a bad player.
Maybe "bad" is a naughty word now a days?
They could sugar coat comments and be technical, but so far their approach to fans as being actual people not mindless wallets has worked.
To me, if they spelled out common sense things such as your example comment, I would feel like they were being condescending by the fact that they think I or we as a whole are too dumb to know any better.
Think I said it earlier, in Trinity-speak, if the Healer is trying to Tank and failing, is it the player or the system that has the problem?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
it's always the healers fault.
Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi
I saw the youtube video Months ago when he said that statement, and it was said in the perfect context. There was no elitism there. If you are a rouge, and you charge into battle vs 2 tank characters, and expect to win.. You are a bad player.. You cant label someone an elitist simply because they state the truth.
Without getting into a whole super long discussion again about pvp,i only need remind that this games does NOT do pvp correctly but then again no rpg does nor will they likely ever do it right.<p>
When i pvp i take it seriously but not THAT serious,i can still relax and just play for fun.However the serious side of me NEEDS every single last idea/system that makes pvp correct,By correct i mean as if i was really in a world looking to pvp,what would it be like,how would i want it to be.
In saying that,the last thing i would want is to run around in the open spamming my hotkeys or mouse to engage in quality pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
We do only have one side of the story.
We don't need more games for everyone, we need decent games for certain groups of gamers (actually, even half-decent games would do at this point). Stop pleasing masses and make games that are worth playing!
This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
Lets pretend that nasty/violent rivalries don't exist in real sports...
I'm all for virtual sportsmanship and what not, but doesn't matter if you are playing a "hardcore" stab stab PVP game or AOL Checkers for ages 10+, people are simply crap to one another behind the keyboard and screen.
Regardless, the statement in question had little to nothing to do with this. Wasn't about showing others respect or not, but rather pointing out that their game isn't being designed around everyone is a winner mentality. Each class/role will have pros/cons and someone expecting a result that isn't possible due to the design is playing badly.
No different than if I knew the rules of Chess yet tried to use my Pawns like a Queen. If the creator of Chess sad I was bad, I wouldn't go cry about.
Funny thing is there are folks on both sides of the imaginary fence missing the point in this thread. The comment had no fence included.
Odd he sent you the same exact statement found in his interview. I'm kinda thinking you didn't receive an email claiming such a thing. Anyways they described that not every class will be good at everything. Not saying your claim was invalid but maybe it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
LOL
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Proof that you and others react to things without taking a moment to look into the context.
If it wasn't for PVP, MMOs would long be dead. Not to say that PVP is done well the majority of the time, but competition vs others in one form or another keeps players coming back long after the PVE grind has become a chore.
Personally I find the "everyone is equal and a winner" to be more detrimental to gaming and life in general than whatever PVP can do. Watered down lowest common denominator design is what has produced one blah game after another. Not a surprise to me that "PVP" games as a whole totally dominate in the numbers department compared to "PVE" games (which there are few these days).
Really don't get the whole "elitist" comments, no where are they coming off as being superior to anyone else. Every single indie/crowdfunded game coming out is going for a niche crowd and wants to make a game a particular way for a particular group. Opposite of which is making a one size fits all experience that works so well... Guess some folks believe that if a game isn't specifically designed for them than it is terrible or something, but seems rather silly to me.
What the email said is NOT elitist, and is infact a good mentallity to have when balancing a game. Game balance gets absolutely trashed when you start adjusting numbers (that may or may not be working) because people start complaining. The key part to the email is the context.
'If you immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak'
That is a conscious decision by the player, and the director is informing you that this is not a game designed around everyone being equal at all times.
If you read the email careful you realize that he's talking about willfully putting yourself in bad situations, not about winning or losing. He's not criticizing a player for losing. He's stating that players should learn to put themselves in better situations (within the game) before immediately crying OP. Something most players do in ALL games, and something that has actually ruined many decent PvP games (because devs made the mistake of listening to these people).
If you find that bit of truth offensive, you honestly should work on being more open minded / having a thicker skin. There's a huge difference between anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism / anti-truth, and most people use all of those interchangeably.