Is EQNext Vaporware?

Nanfoodle

Daffid011 said:

Do you think it is possible that the plan Columbus Nova might have for EQN was to release it in any condition they think will earn them the most money for the least risk?  

No, or DGC would not have come out so boldly and say. "We are making the same game. If we make changes to the current plan we will let you know" Would have been much easier to just come out and say, we are making EQN but it will not be the same game we planed. As an EQN hater I get your question but sorry its just not so. If any changes happen to the development path, it will be because they failed at the R&D they are currently doing. 

Daffid011

SyndromofaDown said

I have a developer friend in the business and he told me usually the company would hire someone to do a task of what they desired usually to work on particular part of the game and not work full time, unless the company chooses to hire them full time. So the company can contact many different talent to do many parts of the game in allowance of the budget. freeing up 1-2 million right now and continuing a 50 million dollar mmo isn't wise. So its one or the other. I know your pessimissm will lose because EQ is their flagship they've worked on for 7 years and now testing combat and world building. And their concepts are Easy! Its like why didn't anyone else think of that before? THey were too busy making WoW clones. I think EQN is steering away from themepark and going into whatever the game can be classified right now. I know this because this is the 2nd iteration of the game. Black boxing is part of the marketing strategy if you followed their initial annoucnemt early 2013 to the "My Everquest Story" to the unlocking the painting with follows on facebook and twitter they been at this and continue to make the game...

Everyone has a developer friend they talk to, but that doesn't mean all development is the same.  SOE had their fair share of contractors, but they platooned their devs between projects all the time.  There wasn't really a need to fire/rehire like you suggest.  They had enough projects and existing games to keep at one point 800+ employees working.  That number has steadily dropped to below a couple hundred.  The problem is they still have all the work that needs to be done on existing and in development games, but only half or less workforce to accomplish those goals.  

As for your black boxing theory, what are they hiding?  You talk like they are now protecting secrets, but the points you bring up have all been openly discussed by the devs.  You brought up Story Bricks as an example, but the devs have talked about it in detail many times already.  There are even podcasts with power point presentations showing exactly how they want it to work. 

If Story Bricks was so great, why did they terminate their partnership with Story Bricks in the first place or at the very bare minimum some other gaming company would have purchased the tech when the company closed down.

I would love it if everyone else was wrong and you were right, but nothing suggests that will happen

laserit

Daffid011 said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that if all those concepts pan out that EQN will be great and maybe influence many games to come..... but enthusiasm isn't a replacement for reason. 

There are many gaping holes in your theories, but Ill ask you this.

Do you think it is possible that the plan Columbus Nova might have for EQN was to release it in any condition they think will earn them the most money for the least risk?   Seems to explain everything that is happening without making assumptions that contradict available information.

I think you are right that Columbus Nova has a new vision, but it isn't the same vision.

What would you do if you purchased one of the biggest household brandings concerning MMORPG's?

Would you make a game as quick and dirty as you can, sell in the hopes of recouping your development costs as well as your investment in the initial purchase? Future be damned?


Or do you take the brand and develop it for the long term? Everquest Next, Expansions and/or sequels etc.


I highly doubt EQN is vaporware.


Many poster's seem to believe it's hack-n-slash time ala Gordon Gecko in "Wall Street"

SyndromofaDown

Daffid011 said:

SyndromofaDown said

I have a developer friend in the business and he told me usually the company would hire someone to do a task of what they desired usually to work on particular part of the game and not work full time, unless the company chooses to hire them full time. So the company can contact many different talent to do many parts of the game in allowance of the budget. freeing up 1-2 million right now and continuing a 50 million dollar mmo isn't wise. So its one or the other. I know your pessimissm will lose because EQ is their flagship they've worked on for 7 years and now testing combat and world building. And their concepts are Easy! Its like why didn't anyone else think of that before? THey were too busy making WoW clones. I think EQN is steering away from themepark and going into whatever the game can be classified right now. I know this because this is the 2nd iteration of the game. Black boxing is part of the marketing strategy if you followed their initial annoucnemt early 2013 to the "My Everquest Story" to the unlocking the painting with follows on facebook and twitter they been at this and continue to make the game...

Everyone has a developer friend they talk to, but that doesn't mean all development is the same.  SOE had their fair share of contractors, but they platooned their devs between projects all the time.  There wasn't really a need to fire/rehire like you suggest.  They had enough projects and existing games to keep at one point 800+ employees working.  That number has steadily dropped to below a couple hundred.  The problem is they still have all the work that needs to be done on existing and in development games, but only half or less workforce to accomplish those goals.  

As for your black boxing theory, what are they hiding?  You talk like they are now protecting secrets, but the points you bring up have all been openly discussed by the devs.  You brought up Story Bricks as an example, but the devs have talked about it in detail many times already.  There are even podcasts with power point presentations showing exactly how they want it to work. 

If Story Bricks was so great, why did they terminate their partnership with Story Bricks in the first place or at the very bare minimum some other gaming company would have purchased the tech when the company closed down.

I would love it if everyone else was wrong and you were right, but nothing suggests that will happen

It was a mutal agreement the end of the partnership with Storybricks. Storybricks was great because they reimagined content and AI in the mmorpg genre. Daybreak figured they learned enough from Storybricks and decided to work "in-house" on their AI. In the end, Storybricks was too expensive.

SyndromofaDown

It would be better cost wise if a company hired freelance talent other than full time according to my friend if they don't otherwise they are pretty stupid. Hiding? UI the aesthetics, ideas maybe. Games in developement are still open to ideas. Tiered Worlds and caves that was revealed, i dont think ANY company including your lover Blizzard could do that with voxels. Soe/Daybreak is way ahead of its game. BlackBox is still in effect. There is a secret someone knows that Storybricks revealed to him at SOE Live 2014 that has an NDA, they are still not showing us everything. Slowly SOE will reveal to us what it wants us to know, just to make us crazy...

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

It was a mutal agreement the end of the partnership with Storybricks. Storybricks was great because they reimagined content and AI in the mmorpg genre. Daybreak figured they learned enough from Storybricks and decided to work "in-house" on their AI. In the end, Storybricks was too expensive.

Where are you getting your information as far as "they learned enough" and "too expensive."

Considering the AI is the "secret sauce" of the game, the folks that created and specialized in it would probably be a top priority to keep around in some capacity.

Not sure if you've actually looked into what happened, but SB posted a farewell memo along with some other random details in different places. Like they attempted to buy SOE at one point.

Actually said they didn't finished the tech before hopping on EQN. So they were creating as they went which looking at how Landmark has progressed with Voxel Farm, it makes sense that it didn't work out as planned.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

Black boxing is part of the marketing strategy if you followed their initial annoucnemt early 2013 to the "My Everquest Story" to the unlocking the painting with follows on facebook and twitter they been at this and continue to make the game...

Black Boxing after the announcement was part of the strategy?

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

It was a mutal agreement the end of the partnership with Storybricks. Storybricks was great because they reimagined content and AI in the mmorpg genre. Daybreak figured they learned enough from Storybricks and decided to work "in-house" on their AI. In the end, Storybricks was too expensive.

Where are you getting your information as far as "they learned enough" and "too expensive."

Considering the AI is the "secret sauce" of the game, the folks that created and specialized in it would probably be a top priority to keep around in some capacity.

Not sure if you've actually looked into what happened, but SB posted a farewell memo along with some other random details in different places. Like they attempted to buy SOE at one point.

Actually said they didn't finished the tech before hopping on EQN. So they were creating as they went which looking at how Landmark has progressed with Voxel Farm, it makes sense that it didn't work out as planned.

Landmark Live they stated they weren't working with Storybricks because of its cost of keeping them around after the work was done, 

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/428470/taking-storybricks-idea-and-then-dropping-them-is-shameful#latest

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

Black boxing is part of the marketing strategy if you followed their initial annoucnemt early 2013 to the "My Everquest Story" to the unlocking the painting with follows on facebook and twitter they been at this and continue to make the game...

Black Boxing after the announcement was part of the strategy?

The annoucement was part of the black box. Its a strategy and will only go away until they kill it, it might be even until beta or something.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

Landmark Live they stated they weren't working with Storybricks because of its cost of keeping them around after the work was done, 

Source?

Storybricks seems to paint a different picture.

Clearly money was an issue and if SOE had offered SB endless piles of cash things probably would of turned out different, but SB sounded like it was already on the way out as the company wasn't going in the direction intended. And then again, if SB was attempting to buy SOE themselves, not sure if it was simply a money issue.

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

Landmark Live they stated they weren't working with Storybricks because of its cost of keeping them around after the work was done, 

Source?

Storybricks seems to paint a different picture.

Clearly money was an issue and if SOE had offered SB endless piles of cash things probably would of turned out different, but SB sounded like it was already on the way out as the company wasn't going in the direction intended. And then again, if SB was attempting to buy SOE themselves, not sure if it was simply a money issue.

Sorry, apparently i cant read, will edit later

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

The annoucement was part of the black box. Its a strategy and will only go away until they kill it, it might be even until beta or something.

"But if you are going to help us make this game we'll have to let you in..." - From the video you linked.

From the Aug 2013 announcement on, they claimed they would be transparent, open, and do things different from how mmos are typically developed. Which they did for a while through various social media sites, round tables, streams, estories, SOE Lives, interviews, articles, etc.

Unless I missed it, they never went "Alright fans, we are heading back into the Black Box and won't be communicating about the project beyond Workshops from here on out."

While I get what they are doing, still doesn't align with what they initially "sold" the project as. While obviously they weren't ever going to reveal 100%, the channel of communication was at least supposed to exist in some capacity when it pertained to EQN the game overall. Wasn't really until towards the end of the year and clearly when the ownership change was becoming a big deal, did they zip it up and start focusing only on Workshop content, which itself is very limited.

Then again that is just my take on it. After 1.5k posts about EQN, I probably have it all wrong. I'm sure I've missed things, but overall I've kept a eye on what is going on.

Here's an example of how they would communicate with fans that didn't go as planned:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/05/sony-online-entertainment-teams-with-wikia-to-engage-gamers-for-everquest-next/

Then there is them closing down the EQN official forums for the most part for fairly pointless/lame reasons and giving everyone a nice link to Reddit where devs surprise surprise no longer visit.

I'm fine with them putting their heads down and getting the game done, but just isn't very reassuring when they say one thing and do another, regardless of what has happened in between. It is extremely easy to communicate with fans these days and the generic canned reasons they've given are pretty crappy compared to the initial reveal and year or so after.

You saying "Black Box" as some sort of reason doesn't make a lot of sense considering what has happened since Aug 2013. Every game is in a BB initially and most stay in it for obvious reasons, apparently SOE/DB wasn't able to stay out of it as much as they had hoped.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

When you black box a game, you either have something REALLY good up their sleeves that they are maximizing efforts to bring the biggest effect their hype machine can churn.

Frankly all i have seen is opinions of has-beens. EQN is the future. It is better looking, more deep, more interesting, And who knows? Maybe they are as groundbreaking as ive stated. YOu guys will be steamrolled if you try to stop it. Because you know what? WE have the FUCKING BOMB. BOOM.

You didn't finish your train of thought.... Either it is REALLY good or is isn't and they would look foolish showing it off...

EQN is just on of many many upcoming games that "look better, more deep, more interesting" depending on who you ask. Don't let the hype train get too fast.

I want EQN to do well and hope it is something resembling what they initially announced, but claiming it will be XYZ with little evidence is a bit silly.

laserit

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

The annoucement was part of the black box. Its a strategy and will only go away until they kill it, it might be even until beta or something.

"But if you are going to help us make this game we'll have to let you in..." - From the video you linked.

From the Aug 2013 announcement on, they claimed they would be transparent, open, and do things different from how mmos are typically developed. Which they did for a while through various social media sites, round tables, streams, estories, SOE Lives, interviews, articles, etc.

Unless I missed it, they never went "Alright fans, we are heading back into the Black Box and won't be communicating about the project beyond Workshops from here on out."

While I get what they are doing, still doesn't align with what they initially "sold" the project as. While obviously they weren't ever going to reveal 100%, the channel of communication was at least supposed to exist in some capacity when it pertained to EQN the game overall. Wasn't really until towards the end of the year and clearly when the ownership change was becoming a big deal, did they zip it up and start focusing only on Workshop content, which itself is very limited.

Then again that is just my take on it. After 1.5k posts about EQN, I probably have it all wrong. I'm sure I've missed things, but overall I've kept a eye on what is going on.

Here's an example of how they would communicate with fans that didn't go as planned:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/05/sony-online-entertainment-teams-with-wikia-to-engage-gamers-for-everquest-next/

Then there is them closing down the EQN official forums for the most part for fairly pointless/lame reasons and giving everyone a nice link to Reddit where devs surprise surprise no longer visit.

I'm fine with them putting their heads down and getting the game done, but just isn't very reassuring when they say one thing and do another, regardless of what has happened in between. It is extremely easy to communicate with fans these days and the generic canned reasons they've given are pretty crappy compared to the initial reveal and year or so after.

You saying "Black Box" as some sort of reason doesn't make a lot of sense considering what has happened since Aug 2013. Every game is in a BB initially and most stay in it for obvious reasons, apparently SOE/DB wasn't able to stay out of it as much as they had hoped.

Different ownership... Different philosophy...

We have no choice but to wait and see. I just hope they're developing with the long term in mind and make a good game.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

Sorry, apparently i cant read, will edit later

They said it was in their best interest to take the work in-house and that they no longer had a working relationship with them.

Haven't watched the whole video for a while, but didn't hear any mention of work being "completed" actually far from it and or cash concerns.

When SB decided to close up shop and were no longer available to SOE, makes sense that it would be in SOE's best interest to take the work in-house...doesn't really sound like it was their decision reading what Storybricks had to say.

Although of course if SOE hadn't been sold and what not, it could of been a different story, no idea.

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

When you black box a game, you either have something REALLY good up their sleeves that they are maximizing efforts to bring the biggest effect their hype machine can churn.

Frankly all i have seen is opinions of has-beens. EQN is the future. It is better looking, more deep, more interesting, And who knows? Maybe they are as groundbreaking as ive stated. YOu guys will be steamrolled if you try to stop it. Because you know what? WE have the FUCKING BOMB. BOOM.

You didn't finish your train of thought.... Either it is REALLY good or is isn't and they would look foolish showing it off...

EQN is just on of many many upcoming games that "look better, more deep, more interesting" depending on who you ask. Don't let the hype train get too fast.

I want EQN to do well and hope it is something resembling what they initially announced, but claiming it will be XYZ with little evidence is a bit silly.

I thought it would be read as something that if, released info later, would instantly increase the buzz and make more money than something gamers got used to if released earlier. It can be said of other games but this one is special, because it redoes the genre.

In comparison to Black Desert, its more interesting, it has more mystery, Black Desert is an GW2 clone with better graphics, but according to you "it depends on who you ask"? Let the majority decide.

Let the people who haven't even read EQN, burnt out, biased or trolls determine what EQN is. Its you and me who are analysts or prediction thats what we post about.

Blaedus

SyndromofaDown said:

Let the people who haven't even read EQN, burnt out, biased or trolls determine what EQN is. Its you and me who are analysts or prediction thats what we post about...and why? we should always post why we think or feel about something otherwise youre trolling.

...what the Hell are you saying here?  Who here, other than a select few who know who they are, are telling people what EQN is or isnt?

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

The annoucement was part of the black box. Its a strategy and will only go away until they kill it, it might be even until beta or something.

"But if you are going to help us make this game we'll have to let you in..." - From the video you linked.

From the Aug 2013 announcement on, they claimed they would be transparent, open, and do things different from how mmos are typically developed. Which they did for a while through various social media sites, round tables, streams, estories, SOE Lives, interviews, articles, etc.

Unless I missed it, they never went "Alright fans, we are heading back into the Black Box and won't be communicating about the project beyond Workshops from here on out."

While I get what they are doing, still doesn't align with what they initially "sold" the project as. While obviously they weren't ever going to reveal 100%, the channel of communication was at least supposed to exist in some capacity when it pertained to EQN the game overall. Wasn't really until towards the end of the year and clearly when the ownership change was becoming a big deal, did they zip it up and start focusing only on Workshop content, which itself is very limited.

Then again that is just my take on it. After 1.5k posts about EQN, I probably have it all wrong. I'm sure I've missed things, but overall I've kept a eye on what is going on.

Here's an example of how they would communicate with fans that didn't go as planned:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/05/sony-online-entertainment-teams-with-wikia-to-engage-gamers-for-everquest-next/

Then there is them closing down the EQN official forums for the most part for fairly pointless/lame reasons and giving everyone a nice link to Reddit where devs surprise surprise no longer visit.

I'm fine with them putting their heads down and getting the game done, but just isn't very reassuring when they say one thing and do another, regardless of what has happened in between. It is extremely easy to communicate with fans these days and the generic canned reasons they've given are pretty crappy compared to the initial reveal and year or so after.

You saying "Black Box" as some sort of reason doesn't make a lot of sense considering what has happened since Aug 2013. Every game is in a BB initially and most stay in it for obvious reasons, apparently SOE/DB wasn't able to stay out of it as much as they had hoped.

I didn't know we could guess when a company is going to fold or not. I guess we ALL WORK FOR THE STOCK MARKET or something...really this is getting out of control. Just because your logic is intact doesnt make you right. We should of discussed "what is Vaporware" then went from there but all i see are some pessimissts who just like to bash at this game...

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

I thought it would be read as something that if, released info later, would instantly increase the buzz and make more money than something gamers got used to if released earlier. It can be said of other games but this one is special, because it redoes the genre.

In comparison to Black Desert, its more interesting, it has more mystery, Black Desert is an GW2 clone with better graphics, but according to you "it depends on who you ask"? Let the majority decide.

Let the people who haven't even read EQN, burnt out, biased or trolls determine what EQN is. Its you and me who are analysts or prediction thats what we post about.

Yes it depends on who you ask. Going by your logic, WoW is the best mmo ever, regardless of what anyone individually believes?

I've seen pretty much the same wording used for the majority of upcoming games and previous ones, it's simply how people talk/think I guess.

Sorry to break it to you, but doubtful "the majority" will play EQN or any game for that matter. MMOs as a whole are basically niche products that hopefully can sustain enough folks to keep the lights on. Unless you have a particular number of who the majority is.

We nor others are determining what EQN is. This is a thread bickering about something that is subjective and can't be proven one way or another. Much like your "It's better than..." view.

I'm just stating my opinion, I don't try to use it as fact (at least not all the time). I'll also point out when I see hype taking over the conversation and not reality.

As of now, EQN hasn't redone the genre nor anything else for that matter. Regardless if holding back info is better and creating buzz or not, they started one way and then went another which has clearly backfired and damaged all that buzz. One worse thing they could do besides holding back details is say they won't and then actually do.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

I didn't know we could guess when a company is going to fold or not. I guess we ALL WORK FOR THE STOCK MARKET or something...really this is getting out of control. Just because your logic is intact doesnt make you right. We should of discussed "what is Vaporware" then went from there but all i see are some pessimissts who just like to bash at this game...

People are bashing the way it's been handled and the company more than the game itself as there isn't much of a game to bash. I find it off topic myself, but it is what it is.

I agree that VW should of been set beforehand, but welcome to internet where everyone has a random opinion about everything, half the time doesn't make sense.

Much like guessing a company will fold or not? No clue what you are talking about.

Blaedus

SyndromofaDown said:
I didn't know we could guess when a company is going to fold or not. I guess we ALL WORK FOR THE STOCK MARKET or something...really this is getting out of control. Just because your logic is intact doesnt make you right. We should of discussed "what is Vaporware" then went from there but all i see are some pessimissts who just like to bash at this game...

You honestly sound like a child here.  Absolutely no one "is right" until either the game is released (be it the Holy Grail or plain trash), or it's cancelled.  That said, all that's being done is discussion.  Trading ideas and thoughts about the game.  On that front, the best opinions are the ones that have logic in them.  Those that aren't clouded by personal grievances or biases.  If a statement actually has a bit of objective thought put into it, some REAL effort, that's the one to pay attention to.

SyndromofaDown

Well why is it vaporware then? you forget the fans have the upper hand now.

Allein

SyndromofaDown said:

Well why is it vaporware then? you forget the fans have the upper hand now.

There are 430 comments discussing it, you could always start there.

Hint: Only you can answer the question for yourself.

SyndromofaDown

Allein said:

SyndromofaDown said:

I thought it would be read as something that if, released info later, would instantly increase the buzz and make more money than something gamers got used to if released earlier. It can be said of other games but this one is special, because it redoes the genre.

In comparison to Black Desert, its more interesting, it has more mystery, Black Desert is an GW2 clone with better graphics, but according to you "it depends on who you ask"? Let the majority decide.

Let the people who haven't even read EQN, burnt out, biased or trolls determine what EQN is. Its you and me who are analysts or prediction thats what we post about.

Yes it depends on who you ask. Going by your logic, WoW is the best mmo ever, regardless of what anyone individually believes?

I've seen pretty much the same wording used for the majority of upcoming games and previous ones, it's simply how people talk/think I guess.

Sorry to break it to you, but doubtful "the majority" will play EQN or any game for that matter. MMOs as a whole are basically niche products that hopefully can sustain enough folks to keep the lights on. Unless you have a particular number of who the majority is.

We nor others are determining what EQN is. This is a thread bickering about something that is subjective and can't be proven one way or another. Much like your "It's better than..." view.

I'm just stating my opinion, I don't try to use it as fact (at least not all the time). I'll also point out when I see hype taking over the conversation and not reality.

As of now, EQN hasn't redone the genre nor anything else for that matter. Regardless if holding back info is better and creating buzz or not, they started one way and then went another which has clearly backfired and damaged all that buzz. One worse thing they could do besides holding back details is say they won't and then actually do.

How do you know about market trends? Did you predict the trend of Sandboxes? Do you work in the industry? Those are the people i want to talk to. Their ideas not yours. What smedley said because hes a pioneer and all you do is take away hard earned titles. You are everything wrong with the genre right now. It is dead. We need hype. You are killing it slowly and soon it will be totally different from what we expected it. EQNext is the savior for up and coming games. Ive been a gamer for 28 years. Back when gamers were outcasts and not armchair status quo enforcers. The MMORPG is dying and you are ensuring its death...

Blaedus

SyndromofaDown said:
How do you know about market trends? Did you predict the trend of Sandboxes? Do you work in the industry? Those are the people i want to talk to. Their ideas not yours. What smedley said because hes a pioneer and all you do is take away hard earned titles. You are everything wrong with the genre right now. It is dead. We need hype. You are killing it slowly and soon it will be totally different from what we expected it. EQNext is the savior for up and coming games. Ive been a gamer for 28 years. Back when gamers were outcasts and not armchair status quo enforcers. The MMORPG is dying and you are ensuring its death...

Are you for real with this shit?

Here's a simple tip.  You wanna talk to the people in the industry?  Go on their own forums and ask your questions.  Don't come onto a public one and spout nonsense like this.  You're at least 28 and you sound a fraction of that age.