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Is EQNext Vaporware?
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I just wanted to make clear that my "LOL" on your post was sarcastic and didn't mean "good job".
It's all well and good that you like it but I don't think it's viable for a game company to produce quality games for a handful of loyalists. Niche is one thing but I think Landmark is way beyond niche at this point.
It's nice for a game company to listen to feedback and allow players a voice and all but if it's only available to founders willing to pay ridiculous money for what is supposed to be a free game (and in an unfinished state} and then leads to results like we have seen in this project I have to seriously doubt the process or at least the people in charge of it.
Landmark has some interesting elements but most would say is a flop. EQN looks to be well on it's way to flop status as well. I don't take great pleasure in saying that because I was a huge EQ and EQ2 fan but this franchise looks to be on a terrible and possibly fatal path.
I'll be happy to eat crow if I turn out to be wrong.
The question of asking is EQn vaporware, is asking has John Smedley been lying to all of us, and there are no actual internal EQN servers, running actual EQN code. Is there actual tangible working code on actual EQn specific server?
We have seen repeated Landmark videos and Landmark code, but nothing to indicate that EQn is actually a real project, standing on it's own 2 feet. (ie vapor)
That is why many have pigeon-hold Smedley, and probably why he coped out when questioned on the very subject. Now it seems DBG is doing everything they can, to get their own internal server up and running, while trying to migrate some/all of Landmark's code over to actually give birth to EQn as actual workable software.
Something never reverts back to being vaporware, once it passes that stage of development. Vaporware doesn't mean "flop", like many believe.
Will they continue to develop the Landmark code base? Probably they will, because it was not the failure you suggest.
otherwise they will not even beat the old WoW.
If EQ:N fails that would be a dissaster.. not to mention damage to their reputation
I think they promised too much, too early. Now development is in stagnation.
good they split the code! And finally the game will get a more adult look compared to Landmark (which seems like a Crafting Simulator on PS4)
Even If they would just Copy Everquest 2 with the new Gfx it would still be better than trying to provide something new like Wildstar and Flop after 4 months.
Somehow I still hope they can create something longlasting like EQ2.. such a game is better than WoW and can satisfy some years^^
The EQ franchise has never been for adults, no clue why they we go that route with EQN.
Just because some folks have aged doesn't mean the products have to as well.
Really feel bad for the inner children of some "adults."
You tip your hand as to how disruptive you are.
We are here at MMORPG.com. We are discusing MMORPGs. You are talking about average "video games" that usually fall under the console gaming space. And you try and use that notion to troll us here.
MMORPGs are indeed Adult games.
Meridian, Ultima, Ashron's and EQ all started back around 1998. Being online back then, was the purview of adults. Paying for internet back then was for adults. Building a PC back then was for adults.
Children didn't play online games then, because in most places the internet was still per hour (& even dial up). They could not afford it. They still can't.
Further more, Everquest is/was an extremely complicated game and most who played were College students, and techies. The children who did happen to play, was because they were taught threw Parenting. No child picked up EQ on their own.
In 2005+
World of Warcraft WAS a MMORPG designed for casuals. It was the Fisher Price of MMORPG and why it exploded. It added graphics and removed all the underlying game mechanics EQ had. Made for a much more simpler game, that casuals & CHILDREN could enjoy.
In using dumm'd down mechanics, and offering mini-challenges WoW allowed children to make social clubs within cyberspace.
After 10 million user in WoW, many business men took notice and decided to start making frill games using high fantasy to entice more and more younger people to play. And since these fledgling are not as discerning shoppers as paying adults, (nor could they afford to keep begging mommy & daddy for monthly $$), these newer & cheaper games took hold. These newer games didn't have any depth and had shallow gameplay, but a 15 year old doesn't know that...
Among the kiddies playing these games, were weak adults who could not hang inside Adult games, so they felt empowered, when they could outspend 90% if the childings, and were reveled as gods by their in-game peers. Because they could afford item malls thingies, while kids could only on-line browse & wish one day. Or until they could convince their mommy/daddy to use their CC# for a $10 mount, or suite of armor, etc.
Whaling become part of the MMO space and all these developers were rushing out with their vessels, trying to harpoon all the sea life. Pulling in children and young adults who felt pressured by subscription games.
Their new addiction felt better playing for free. Even is Mommy was paying. So recent F2P style of MMO games do cater towards children. It is all they can afford. But here at MMORPG, we are not children and can afford to talk about challenging content, not arcade games.
The Baby Bells are coming, & they are all adult driven.
Sorry, I should have been more clear that those videos were scripted CGI movies and not recordings of actual gameplay. I agree with your conclusion and points.
The real question I was trying to raise, is how was the team able/willing to show combat, even with details about which classes had certain abilities, how it works, etc... when it has taken them 2 years to test version 1.0 of the combat engine? It doesn't add up.
I can only think of three possibilities that fit the scenario.
1) They didn't have a combat engine 2 years ago when the videos were shown and were just selling hype based on concept.
2) There was some sort of combat engine built, but they have scrapped it and moved to something new. The feedback from the combat videos wasn't good and a 2 year gap between reveal and first internal combat test seem to fit this.
3) The team just can't develop. Nearly 8 years developing and all they have to show for it is Landmark. This seems to fit.
As for the split in the code bases, you make some great points, but underneath all that I think there is a simpler explanation.
Landmark and EQN were always the same project. The team has only ever been working on 1 code base, calling it Landmark up until a few weeks ago, now they are calling it EQN. Still the same project.
Landmark was nothing more than clever marketing, smoke and mirrors.
Does anyone really believe that a team which had just wasted nearly 5 years work and multiple attempts to make EQN, suddenly was asked to make one of the most ambitious MMO ever attempted and simultaneously develop a second game.
Guess we should determine what a "child" is?
I played MUDs, EQ, UO, etc as a teenager. Years have gone by and now I consider teens to be children, but maybe you are talking about 0-13 or something?
You have a very narrow view. Just because you were already X years old by the time online gaming started, doesn't mean everyone else was. My friends and I were young and there were plenty of others around our age. Although, I'll agree that EQ did have a lot of college+ aged folks.
Regardless, that soon ended when the internet and products became more accessible.
Vanilla WoW was very time intensive like EQ, not as much, but originally it was simply a more polished and accessible product that catered to a wider audience then grumpy folks like yourself that can only see inside your own little bubble. Now on the other hand...ya pretty silly where it and the genre have gone.
Maybe I'm just better than you, but EQ was not extremely complicated. Pick a class, pick 8 skills, get a group, attack stuff, don't screw up. Everything was so pigeon holed that there wasn't much variety or room for experimenting. You either were good or not. WoW with its a million and one skills, allowed for a lot more variation and the dungeon/PVE design was much more complicated than simply tank and spank that was much of EQ.
Years have gone by and WoW is now a joke as well, but this is all very subjective to our own personal experience and skill level. What made EQ "hard" was the limited resources and being unlike other products. By the time WoW rolled around, many had experience for years in multiple games and while it offered new challenges, the entire experience wasn't new. Much like going from PnP to MUDs to EQ.
No clue how old you are (obviously a bit more than myself), you seem very out of touch with today's market, gamers, and the world. To believe that a 15 year old doesn't have access to money or know any better makes you sound like the naive one. Maybe when you were young you depended on mommy and daddy, that isn't the case for everyone.
You're view of F2P, cash shops, and the genre aren't really off, but you do have a very one directional point of view that doesn't seem to factor in anything but what you want.
As I said, these are video games. They are meant to be fun for people of all types. The idea that they were ever designed for old people with cash only is silly.
Calling me a troll is an example of you simply having no idea what you are talking about.
The "baby bells" are coming? Where have they been?
Luckily, they and everyone is in for some good times since most upcoming games are going away from the terrible WoW model and getting into more niche designs.
If you want to live in 1999, Pantheon is waiting. Chronicles of Elyria and other such games look like much better concepts to take the "old school" and bring it into the future. Not copying EQ because it is the only thing you can handle since it is so difficult...
But on average 0~15 are children.
In any regards, you admit that EQ was made by adults, for the same like-minded adults.
But I can now see what you have missed, being of your age. EQ mechanics are unsurpassed. Even WoW didn't have riposte, blind, charm, fear, block, levitate, shrink, illusion, rampage, bane style of game mechanics. All the different resists tables, and abilities. EQ was about all the things you did not see during combat, all the dice rolls going on.
These mechanics are endless and actual written into the base code & combat mechanics within the game. World of Warcraft is arcade by comparison. And technically WoW had only a few character controllers or hooks into the actual game world. It is a Fisher Price toy.
It was because of your young age, that you were focused on the game visually, and not understand the actual formulas and game mechanics underneath. How to do things was taught to you from those who figured it our on raids.
EQ, like EVE, there is the the game. Then there is the "meta-game".
World of Warcraft was a phenomenon. It was not good, or better than what was before it, WoW just had more candy around it.
They had some interesting ideas up front (the way the AI and monsters would behave/evolve), some dumb ideas (destructable stuff as a major feature? sorry, that's a weak gimmick at best).
Like most modern not really MMORPGs they want to be everything to everybody and then some - and there's little point to it when your average solo/casual that they're aiming for won't care and won't stick regardless.
I think they'll end up coming out with something, it won't be nearly as amazing as it was first described or envisioned, and it'll be just more generic and forgettable F2P rubbish that nobody cares about.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Wasn't this considered gameplay? missing AI.
Why do you always bring up age? I find it mildly amusing, since it's almost never followed by anything enlightening or valuable.
While you're correct that WoW is a dumbed-down version of EQ mechanics, EQ was merely a digitalized version of D&D. There is lots going on in the background, but this is it's strength and curse. If you never played D&D before (and few have) then you'd be hard-pressed to understand the significance of something as trivial as a dice roll. I can tell you're one who HAS played a lot of D&D because you seem very knowledgeable about it. However, that doesn't mean you're smarter or wiser, because you don't seem to recognize that the larger "win" here was the genre. I remember not mentioning EVER than I played EQ. NEVER! WoW came along and in ten years changed a genre that was viewed negatively into something that is recognized as a social platform. It also grew with the changing audience, opposed to remaining true to the D&D-style rule sets. Why? Simply because the D&D market never grew, as evidenced by EQs eventual decline in popularity.
EVE is another game that you use but is, again, something very specialized and time consuming. While it has maintained a stead and good-sized group, it's still niche.
You're arguing that he doesn't understand anything, but I think he's quite clear, and he's not wrong. EQ is a niche game the same way that D&D is. Saying that EQ mechanics haven't been surpassed is like saying muskets haven't been surpassed. Just because it was the best way to do things at the time, and while there may be some who still prefer to use muskets, I'm sure most would opt for a modern-day rifle.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Sorry i just like looking at this video. The hate is strong in this thread. Lot of people are talking. Haters vs Hypers. Lets get this going next year. I can't wait.
@SyndromofaDown I don't understand,
that video you posted is Landmark, you can play it today.
(except that they removed sliding from the game..for unknown reasons).
Either way, what they showed their and what combat looks like in Landmark are very different. So either they changed the system or what is in Landmark was some offshoot draft which they've said to have now gone and worked on combat for X amount of time and are testing it finally.
"Gameplay" is what you want it to be, but doing a bunch of AOEs on target dummies doesn't really make "gameplay" to everyone. To me it shows that they do have other stuff cooked up that hasn't made it into Landmark though.
Remember though, that was over 2 years ago. We've had Landmark for the majority of that time and they've said over and over that LM is what we should look at to get a sense of how EQN will function. Unfortunately a lot of Landmark is rather blah.
Did you actually play WoW? Did you beat all the high end content in Vanilla and or beyond?
Would be interested in which EQ content is "harder" or whatever in comparison. As well as what mechanics haven't been surpassed and why. Players shrinking in size is not that impressive, sorry. Going by what you listed, I'm doubting you've ever played WoW or any other game since 1999 to believe EQ is full up on things that haven't either been copied and or improved upon.
Haven't played either game in a very very long time, but neither seemed "extremely" difficult as you claim, although WoW had more variety in challenges. Found EQ raiding rather boring in comparison, then again I didn't spend much time doing it either. WoW on the other hand I was in a higher end guild.
WoW and EQ while very similar, do have different mechanics. I might be misunderstanding you, but you seem to imply that RNG and behind the scenes dice rolls make for a better and or challenging game? WoW has plenty of that as well, but I prefer actual player skill to matter, not what the game decides for me. Looking at the explosion of competitive games, especially more active ones, I'm not a lone.
I'm a PVPer at heart and have done so since I began playing MUDs. Did it on the Zeks where playing was a lot more challenging than whatever blue server you most likely were on.
I was an "adult" when WoW came out, don't believe the visuals did anything for me. I actually like EQ SOL models more. I didn't jump into UO/EQ when they first launched because I didn't see them as anything special, was having a blast playing MUDs.
Again, everything you've said is completely subjective based on what you want, not factoring in anything that apparently has happened since EQ's launch. This wave of "adults" incoming hopefully gets here soon so you can play all the games you are predicted are for them only.
Neither WoW or EQ were better than the other. Simply different styles of games. Sadly for you, your preference was crushed. Luckily some folks are trying to rekindle the spirit, but I highly doubt it will do anything to change the course of the genre/market. Way too many "children" and open minded gamers these days. Sorry you couldn't keep up and don't like change, but that's how the world works.
That is what it looks like to have human controlled avatars, so yes that is something. Not sure it is gameplay though. No UI, the devs don't look to be hitting anything but movement keys, the NPCs in the first 4 encounters just stand there and that last fight is a blur of particle effects, but something is happening. Very cool when the floor was destroyed after the huge beast thing died.
40 classes, no thank you. One of EQ2s biggest problems is too many classes. Ideally classless system, but if not then a handful of base classes with the player choosing many abilities to suit their desired playstyle.
Storybricks sounds like huge potential as initially described.
Still waiting to see what will make this game a sandbox.
Be it, 5-20-40-72+ usually boils down to the same concept. One or more individuals screwed up and or the game threw a unforeseen curve ball and people couldn't react to. EQ didn't have the assistance of 3rd party addons, guides, sites, etc and simply was played by fewer people to contribute to all these, which made it more naturally harder.
Those going into WoW had more experience coming from EQ and other games. Hence why only the top 1-5% of the millions and millions that played Vanilla WoW actually downed raid bosses, most people didn't know what they were doing.
Corpse runs, competing against other guilds and other "hard" features of EQ didn't actually make the content itself harder from my perspective, but did make for a more challenging experience. Which is why I prefer PVP and FFA game styles when possible. Learning and beating the AI dance is initially challenging, but once you get it down, just going through the motions.
With 72 people I'd image most wipes were do to a few individuals and not the overall group being mentally outdone by the game. The more people involved, the harder it becomes. To me the #1 most difficult aspect of raiding is getting X number of people to shut up, take directions, and then actually follow through.