Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Star Citizen: Should We Question RSI & Star Citizen? Derek Smart Thinks So
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
UPDATE: This was just posted on the Star Citizen forums by Ben Lesnick regarding the refund of Derek Smart's investment in Star Citizen:
Hey guys!
I believe I can clarify this. We refunded Mr. Smart’s package because he was using Star Citizen as a platform to gain attention as part of a campaign to promote his ‘Line of Defense’ space game. Our ToS (or in this case, the Kickstarter ToS) allows us to refund troubled users who we would rather not have interacting with the community. The process lets us entirely disable their accounts, preventing them from playing the finished game. Think of it as the video game equivalent of a ‘we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone’ sign in a restaurant. We’ve used this ability a limited number of times in the past, always with the aim of improving the community (until today, the most famous example being our old friend jcrg99/Manzes/PonyMillar/he of many other alts.)
I do now want to stress that that is not to say you can get your money back by simply being as obnoxious as possible; we’re also able to ban accounts from the forums without requiring a refund. But sometimes we take a look at a user and decide that they’re so toxic or their intentions are so sinister that we simply don’t want them associated with Star Citizen.
As for refund requests working the other way: per the ToS, we’re not required to offer them. We do try and work with backers who are facing hardships, but the hard truth is that the money is by necessity being spent to develop a game rather than sitting unused somewhere (that being the significant difference with Steam; those refunds are taken out of their games’ profits rather than their development budgets.)
Derek Smart has taken to his personal blog and launched a long piece about Star Citizen, how it has taken vast sums of money from backers who appear to, as Smart alleges, be willing in all that is spoken about the game without much actually being shown. It should be noted that Mr. Smart is a backer of Star Citizen and RSI himself, and that these allegations are coming from a fan as well as a developer. It is Smart's contention that fans will never see a product that will even approach its actual cost. With $85M in the coffers, Smart feels that dollars are being burned through very quickly with a staff of 300+.
The article begins with this:
From everything that we have uncovered thus far, it is our belief that the game, Star Citizen, as of this writing, has all the makings of a crowd-funding failure, and an unmitigated disaster. A disaster which, if, and when it happens, and everything eventually comes out, is likely to be the most shocking event in recent gaming memory, which threatens to eclipse even the 38 Studios collapse of 2012.
Smart asserts that there is no game on the planet of the scope and size that Roberts et al have pitched that could be built for less than $150M. He further claims that the main stream media has, even if inadvertently, been in collusion with one another and that none in the media are willing to do what it takes to investigate the situation fully.
Smart goes on:
Yes, when all is said and done, not only have they failed to deliver as originally promised, there is seemingly no accountability for development slips, feature creep, where the crowd-funded money is going etc.
In short, all in gaming, are at war. Again.
Smart next goes on to rebut the article posted on the Star Citizen forum where developers spoke to specific community concerns:
The point of the matter is that, this Star Citizen fiasco is so polarizing, that, not only is there a massive battle waging between supporters (White Knights), and dissenters (Black Nights) on their forums, but in every single gaming forum, or group that has any interest in the game.
From here Smart analyzes what he believes is RSI's attempt to obfuscate significant happenings at the company and bury important news in other, less significant, announcements. Most notably, he mentions the departure of Alex Mayberry and how the news about this significant event was buried in a "news release" that partner CIG had moved into a new office in Germany -- an office that he contends has been open since August of 2014. This, Smart implies, is evidence that RSI is being less than up front with its patrons.
After hours and days of research, Smart writes that he has come up with 33 important points for fans to consider, then posts what he believes are the most significant ten:
The project slipped it’s original Nov 2014 ship date as promised in the Oct 2012 Kickstarter pledge
Almost four (1 year prior to KS, 2 years pledged timeline, 8 months delayed) years, they have not delivered a game; of any scope as originally pitched in 2012
Key people (we have a running list) have been leaving, some for patently dubious reasons
Some ex personnel have already taken to places like glassdoor to voice concerns
Key modules are either buggy, to the point of unplayable for the most part (Arena Commander), or put on indefinite hold (Star Marine fps module)
Technological hurdles, and the limitations of the CryEngine3 they chose, have only now started coming to light as recently as June’s dev update
Chris, as seen/heard in the video above, had already stated, and I quote “the game on the low side was going to be about 14 million dollars to make and the high side, which is where we are at now, is going to be about 20 million” We’re $85m in. No game.
They continued to increase the scope of the project, not only as a way to continue raising money through stretch goals, but also thereby putting the project at risk of never being completed as originally visioned; as doing so, makes it a very expensive proposition
They continue to crowd-fund and raise money, selling virtual items for a game that doesn’t exist, and based on a TOS that all but guarantees that people who pledge, will have little to no recourse to get their money back, unless they sued and got the TOS tossed (as we suspect that it will, if the FTC doesn’t get there first) by a judge
Investigations in the past weeks, and discussions with various people, have led to some very alarming, and disturbing things that, I’m not even going to bother making public – yet.
Further, he notes:
The hangar module is not the game they promised. That just ended up being a conduit for viewing virtual ships sold, for a game that doesn’t exist
The Arena Commander, largely a broken mess, is not the game they promised. That just ended up being a test module, and conduit for testing virtual ships sold, for a game that doesn’t exist
The Star Marine FPS module has been put on indefinite hold. Plus, sources tell me what they have now is just two test levels. Which means it will end up being another shoddy mess like Arena Commander upon release (if ever).
There is no Squadron 42 game
There is no Star Citizen game
The next portion of the article cites several Federal Trade Commission (FTC) violations that Roberts Space Industry may be in violation of and opined that, should any legal action be taken against the company, these violations may lead to the ultimate cessation of the project altogether.
Smart says he reached out to Chris Roberts, his legal council Ortwin Freyermuth and to the lead PR representative David Swofford none of whom, he writes, bothered to get back to him with any kind of comment about his allegations.
Lastly, and as a backer of Star Citizen, Smart details seven demands that he believes all donors are interested in hearing about:
As backers of this project, here is our list of demands:
disclose the full detailed (private jet travel? we want to see it) P&L accounting (money in off-shore bank accounts? we want to know about them) for every crowd-funded dime that has been raised and spent on this project. Allow an independent forensics accountant, hired by backers, to come and do an audit. This is standard practice in developer-publisher relationships. So you know how that works.
disclose the true state of the project in terms of what is expected to be delivered, and when. Allow an independent Executive Producer, hired by backers, to come and do a project review in order to get an accurate picture of the game state, so we know when it is likely to see the light of day – if ever
disclose the true timeline for the project’s completion. As per the above.
setup a page offering refunds to all those who REQUEST it. The TOS is going to be the first thing attacked in any lawsuit. It is not likely to survive a legal challenge. Plus, the FTC will trump all that crap anyway, so there is that.
admit, in no uncertain terms, and apologize that the scope of the project has changed since the original $2.1m kickstarter crowd-funding campaign
halt all further crowd-funding activities until a sizable part of the game – as originally pitched in 2012 – has been delivered to backers who have paid for it. In other words, STOP selling virtual items and taking money for vaporware
address the nepotism issues associated with the hiring of unqualified family members to head key parts of this crowd-funded project. In this regard, explain the benefits of a) promoting your brother to an Executive Producer position, as opposed to hiring someone (like the departed Alex Mayberry) who has the experience to match the job. Also what new benefits (pay raise, shares etc) he now has access to, for going into that position b) hiring someone, allegedly your wife, to a position that she is seemingly not qualified to hold. And why a more experienced executive wasn’t put in this position. Especially since that dept has several men, and women, with more experience and qualifications to do the job. Instead, they get to answer to her; and naturally, she gets paid more, as per the position
Smart believes that Roberts must issue a statement regarding his and other backers' concerns about Star Citizen. Should he choose not to, Smart says, Roberts should be removed from the company or that backers en masse should demand his resignation.
Want to read the entire story and participate in the conversation? Head to DerekSmart.com and Smart Speak to do so.
EDIT: It seems that RSI has pre-emptively returned Smart's $250 pledge to Star Citizen as well, without Derek asking for the refund:
UPDATE 07/14: This article was written last week, on 07/10, and was awaiting legal approval before posting. During that time, I had shared it with various media personnel, as well as some industry friends. Earlier this evening, I sent out a tweetthat the article was going live. Then when making my final email pass for the evening, I noticed an email had come in from Kickstarter, advising me that RSI had processed a $250 refund for my pledge. While I was pondering that, I got another email from RSI confirming it. I don’t know what this means, but I will speak with legal in the morning to figure it out.
Comments
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/435913/UPDATED-Derek-Smart-Star-Citizen-as-has-been-pitched-will-never-get-made.html
17 pages of discussion on this topic for the last 10 days on mmorpg.com alone.
All his points have been discussed ad nauseum for the last 2 years already. In ten-thousands of posts all over the internet. So nothing of this is new.
Keep in mind: Derek Smart does not work (and has never worked) for CIG or any contractor of CIG. He is essentially a competitor of CIG. And to understand why he blogs like this, you should hear his own words about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Smart
In an interview which was featured on the cover page of Computer Gaming World, Smart said of his online persona: "Sometimes when I get online, and it's quiet, and I see something that attracts my attention, I'll post just to piss these guys off. That's why I do it. Because I'm in a good mood that day, I go in there and I start trouble."[17] A 2012 in-depth article regarding the disconnect between his real-life and online alter-ego was authored by media veteran Russ Pitts and published by The Verge.[19]
>>>>EDIT: It seems that RSI has pre-emptively returned Smart's $250 pledge to Star Citizen as well, without Derek asking for the refund >>>>
Seems this is specifically allowed by Kickstarter at any time for the company running a Kickstarter project. So from a legal point of view CIG was allowed to do that.
Have fun
I am not in the 'know' on all the fine details of what is and what is not happening. Still, the 'missed' 2014 release date is obviously the result of an expanded scope of design and feature list. Maybe they are doing to much,, maybe they aren't. I can tell you this though, what I've seen so far is nothing but quality. They are producing not only a space sim but also an FPS that will allow for a wide breath of game play options. so I will wait because I want it all.
There community should strive to keep RSI honest but please don't shackle them with impatience!
Show me a game company that has embraced such a lofty game design? If there was another, could they get it all done in 3 years? If by this time next year we don't have a fully fleshed out game then there is cause for concern and even outrage. Until then, I look forward to seeing new systems come online.
Whatever one thinks of Derek, he raises some valid points in his article. And quite simply, there's a story developing here, in one way or another, which it's our duty to report.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My Review Manifesto
Follow me on Twitter if you dare.
I think all of us backers are starting to get a bad feeling about development and many have the knee jerk reaction to repel any criticism with down right anger because they don't want to look like an ass after droppings hundreds on imaginary ships.
No matter what you say or think about Derek, he has some very legitimate points. I am not a backer of SC or a fan or a hater. Here is what I think is going to happen. The more people push against Chris Roberts bubble the more likely it will explode and he will run off with the money. I think the, IMHO, company is struggling but trying to get something done. I can assure you that from working for several gaming companies you are never told the whole truth, hell even to the general public I don't think any company tells the whole truth. I think from most stand points as long as RSI keeps trying then it is better than the alternative which is to fail and that might just be a possibility even more so as people want answers and accountability.
My 2 Cents.
Z.
Bill.. will be interested to see if you hold Pathfinder Online to the same level of scrutiny regarding their Crowdfunding and hold them to the same list of demands shown above. That would obviously also apply to other Crowdfunded games as well.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
yeah, no. He pretty much copy/pasted Manzes (the troll who attacks anything Star Citizen, all the time), added a healthy dose of self aggrandizing, and threw in some advertising for his shitty games.
There are very worrying rumours about Star Citizen, they are spending more money than they are raising with an incredible 300 full time staff and 200 contractors.
Giving Derek Smart his money back just goes to show that they don't want people asking questions.
We could do this all day, umm yea he does.
Z.
but I won't
Roberts "Letter from the Chairman" (27th June) was posted before Derek Smart posted his first blog on Star Citizen (6th July). So ... not directly related.
Have fun
you are wrong,SC is not MMORPG it is space sim action arcade shooter sp+co-op MP game ! nothing have with mmo or rpg
. Ya I think it's funny how Chris gets mad over people saying its a scam and what not even though by the day it looks more and more like one. I have backed both SC and ED, as of right now ED seems to have more of a future and who knows the better game then SC will be. I have given up on waiting for updates or information regarding SC because he never delivers any. Even to me its looking like a Ponzi scheme rigt now(hope not) lolW.r.t. Updates .....Hmmm .. how about the MMORPG.com Star Citizen section ?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/430043/Star-Citizen-Monthly-Development-Reports.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436358/Star-Citizen-News-about-the-new-Frankfurt-studio.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436499/Star-Marine-status-update-July-11.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/422887/Star-Citizen-current-ship-pipeline-status-.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436398/Star-Citizen-CIG-officially-adresses-all-the-recent-concerns-LONG.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/423334/Star-Citizen-Crowdfunding-Milestones-Discussion.html
Have fun
The real questions is, what would a company who has delivered on their promises do with 85m? I don't know what Frontier has made on Elite: Dangerous but I don't think it comes close to the 85m mark. Could you imagine what Elite would look like with that kind of money infused into it?
I am also an SC backer so I hope as much as anyone that this is all just fearmongering but I can't help having misgivings about a game that has been in the works for so long to deliver what SC has. Derek's motivations aside these are questions that need to be asked, and answered. If not it likely will devolve into the sort of fiasco we all hope it won't.
I think it's much more likely that instead of letting the pot boil over RSI will probably crank out whatever they can in the short time before things get too hard for them to recover. Not enough to be a good game, but enough to maintain plausible deniability on their part.
I hope I am wrong.
While Derek smart has some valid points, he is exceptionally negative about this. I think us backers know Chris, He is a good man and will overdeliver. He has made plenty of good quality games, has a good track record and not to forget, he has a big budget without any publisher bugging him (like $400 million, because in indie developing, you can multiply the budget by 5, no overhead or marketing costs). He doesn't need any aditional help and Mayberry is not to be missed. I also understand there is just a slight delay with the fps module, no big deal. Delays happen in the industry.
I think it's just best to wait and see. Chris won't run out of funds soon and we backers will happily fund him should CIG need more money. I can't wait till the next ship comes out for me to purchase. I mean, what could possibly go wrong with such a big list of features and such a big budget? He will bring us the best game ever to grace mankind and then we will see the true genius that is Chris Roberts. Just ask yourself this, could so many people, who blindly believe in CR and will follow him to heaven and hell, be this wrong?
Enjoy.
Anyone who has no misgivings at this point should probably read this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh
This is a reasonable short list of demands that any company acting in good faith would have no problem fulfilling. All CIG needs to do is become a bit more transparent and all of this bad press would go away. Not only would transparency make the bad press go away, but it would serve as a conduit of good will that would in turn allow CIG to raise even more money going forward. The fact that they are not even trying to squelch any of this bad press by submitting to at least some of these demands is a telling sign of an admission of guilt.
By voluntarily, and without cause, deciding to refund DSmart his backer's money, CIG is attempting to take away some of the thunder in Smart's claims. In doing so, what they are clearly attempting to do is take away any strength that Smart may have by claiming that he himself is a backer therefore giving him a vested right and interest for making these demands. They are attempting to disassociate him as an investor from the project and in doing so, in essence saying, "you are not even a backer so just go away and leave us alone." Little do they know that this will actually backfire on them because what it does is confirm the fact that CIG has received his requested "List of Demands" but has decided to not only refuse to act on them, but to act in bad faith by attempting to disassociate or create separation from him by involuntarily sending him back his contribution. This, in and of itself, is very telling because if you have nothing to hide, why not, in good faith, simply keep his contribution and provide the information requested?
Deservedly or not, CIG is being made to look very bad in this fiasco. It would do them well to start becoming a bit more transparent and begin responding to some of these demands. There should be no problem doing so if you are an honest company, acting in good faith. Their behavior has become very very shady and unless they start coming clean this is all going to start unraveling very quickly and no amount of paid dispatched shills to popular outside websites/blogs, or hired crisis management PR talking heads, are going to be able to circumvent the predictable catastrophic end result looming ahead.
I'm curious about you and this whole Pathfinder thing, slappy. Do you use voice recognition software, or do you sit your pitchfork and torch down to type these posts?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Frontier Developments plc Annual Report and Accounts 2014
https://www.frontier.co.uk/docs/files/Frontier%20Developments%20plc%20Annual%20Report%20and%20Accounts%202014.pdf
In summary ...
done well, better than expected (profit: several million € from 500+k copies of E:D), but significantly less than 85 M$.
Have fun