I know its crazy and unheard of in your day and age but there was this amazing thing called free trials in mmorpgs where players could play 1 or 2 weeks and find out if they truly enjoyed the game and would even have discounts for buying the game through the free trial, like I said crazy!
So you're saying you've never spent money on a game you didn't like in your entire life?
In reality, you get to try far more of a F2P game than you got to try in trial games, so you are much better-protected against being ripped off.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
I know its crazy and unheard of in your day and age but there was this amazing thing called free trials in mmorpgs where players could play 1 or 2 weeks and find out if they truly enjoyed the game and would even have discounts for buying the game through the free trial, like I said crazy!
So you're saying you've never spent money on a game you didn't like in your entire life?
In reality, you get to try far more of a F2P game than you got to try in trial games, so you are much better-protected against being ripped off.
Ever since Gamepro and EGM (magazines) came out back in the late 80's, I have very rarely made a gaming purchase that I regretted. These guys were harsh on shit games and their review scores would be painfully honest. Nowadays with the internet and tools such as YouTube it's even easier to filter out the terrible from the good. Sure, you could ignore all of this and take a blind gamble every time you buy a game, but why would you do that?
Free trials have always been fine; if you need more than a week or two to figure out if you like a game you're probably a nightmare to go shopping with. Free trials are a great deal for both consumers and producers. You never have to worry about running into a nasty pay wall (surprise!!!), having the pleasure of watching the payment model of a game you've invested a lot of your time in slowly change course from "hey this isn't stepping on my toes" to "what the fuck are they thinking", or even having to take a little "timeout" from gameplay because you have decided you do not want to pay for yet another thing.
Thanks but free trials (not to mention the internet) are enough protection for me.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
Ever since Gamepro and EGM (magazines) came out back in the late 80's, I have very rarely made a gaming purchase that I regretted. These guys were harsh on shit games and their review scores would be painfully honest. Nowadays with the internet and tools such as YouTube it's even easier to filter out the terrible from the good. Sure, you could ignore all of this and take a blind gamble every time you buy a game, but why would you do that?
Free trials have always been fine; if you need more than a week or two to figure out if you like a game you're probably a nightmare to go shopping with. Free trials are a great deal for both consumers and producers. You never have to worry about running into a nasty pay wall (surprise!!!), having the pleasure of watching the payment model of a game you've invested a lot of your time in slowly change course from "hey this isn't stepping on my toes" to "what the fuck are they thinking", or even having to take a little "timeout" from gameplay because you have decided you do not want to pay for yet another thing.
Thanks but free trials (not to mention the internet) are enough protection for me.
It's a brave soul who hinges his argument on the integrity of gaming journalism. Even when I was younger I understood that these magazines were a bad way of telling whether or not a game would actually be enjoyable.
A free trial always includes a pay wall, and that pay wall is nastier than the majority of free to play games (where paying is optional.) Trials are by definition a minority of the game with the majority being hidden behind a pay wall. Meanwhile F2P gives you the majority of the game for free with a minority of often optional content behind a pay wall.
Objectively F2P games are less gated by paying.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ever since Gamepro and EGM (magazines) came out back in the late 80's, I have very rarely made a gaming purchase that I regretted. These guys were harsh on shit games and their review scores would be painfully honest. Nowadays with the internet and tools such as YouTube it's even easier to filter out the terrible from the good. Sure, you could ignore all of this and take a blind gamble every time you buy a game, but why would you do that?
Free trials have always been fine; if you need more than a week or two to figure out if you like a game you're probably a nightmare to go shopping with. Free trials are a great deal for both consumers and producers. You never have to worry about running into a nasty pay wall (surprise!!!), having the pleasure of watching the payment model of a game you've invested a lot of your time in slowly change course from "hey this isn't stepping on my toes" to "what the fuck are they thinking", or even having to take a little "timeout" from gameplay because you have decided you do not want to pay for yet another thing.
Thanks but free trials (not to mention the internet) are enough protection for me.
It's a brave soul who hinges his argument on the integrity of gaming journalism. Even when I was younger I understood that these magazines were a bad way of telling whether or not a game would actually be enjoyable.
A free trial always includes a pay wall, and that pay wall is nastier than the majority of free to play games (where paying is optional.) Trials are by definition a minority of the game with the majority being hidden behind a pay wall. Meanwhile F2P gives you the majority of the game for free with a minority of often optional content behind a pay wall.
Objectively F2P games are less gated by paying.
Yeah, journalist are the least likely group to influence my purchases. At least as far as opinions go. If some factual information like this game formats your hard drive is in their blurb, then sure that would influence it.
Free to play is part of a natural progression in business models. We had pay by hour (AOL, INN/TSN @ $6.00 per hour) and people said that is too expensive and lower the cost barrier to entry. Then we got purchase and sub model which got the same cost barrier complaint. Now we have the free to play. What is next? Hopefully they pay to you play!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
It's not contradictory at all.
I don't like real money constantly infringing in a fantasy game world.
If people buy items illegally out of game what has that to do with me? That is their choice and it really doesn't effect me. Gold and items are probably sold more out of game now then they were in the early MMOs. There are still plenty of farmers. I've already said I don't believe dangling carrots should be the only focus of the games. That wasn't always the case.
As to your last comment I don't see what that has to do with me, but I'll reply to it. Generally anything sold in the game has an impact. It doesn't matter if it's only visual. I remember in EQ when people would covet an item just because it had a different color then the norm.
Weather the sky is falling or not is irrelevant. The point is it has a negative impact on my overall gaming experience and is why I don't play free to play games.
I also don't trust free to play games. Generally they are running something in the background to monitor you and no this was not always the case.
First people argue you are not spending enough money without free to play then they argue that you are spending to much money if you are not doing free to play. All of this missed the point, but I would argue free to play costs you more in the long run otherwise manufacturers would not do it. They are not nice people who want to give you a good game. They are merely interested in the money. If having a set price for games meant making them more money they would be doing it. As it is most games have a combination of different payment models all rolled into one. Especially MMORPGs.
Free trials, especially those limited by level or areas, just hide the "bad" stuff behind the pay wall. And most "two weeks" trials where "two weeks or 10 hours, whichever is reached first" or something like that. And usually, you do not have two continous weeks to spare anyways, you'd need like several months to actually use "two weeks" of time.
F2P games allow you to play for absolute free as long as you want. While i fully understand the feeling of needing to pay to be able to enjoy it, i prefer to walk away from it. I played DDO, Neverwinter, Warframe, Vindictus and lots of generic korea grinders like R.O.S.E etc.
I spent €22,50 on platinum in Warframe, but only on a 50% off offer. Didn't actually feel the "need" to buy it, but wanted to give something back because while it lasted, it was quite fun. Spent a similar amount on Vindictus for some nice underwear for my Vella. This was more "forced" because the basic underwear does clash with many armors, but i did play Vindictus a lot, and €50-100 on cash shop items in 20 years in MMOs..
So if i want to play ESO i have to pay €55 up front, despite it having a cash shop and not actually offering everything in the regular version. If i want to play FF XIV including the expansion, it's €45. Alternatively i can buy only FF XIV for €10, but then i do not have all content again .I also have to pay the monthly subscription fee if i want to keep playing, which is between €66 at once for 180 days, or 6*13 = 78 if i pay only for one month as to not waste too much if i happen to stop in between. Oh, did i mention there's a collectors edition for €25? And lets not forget the cash shop.
If i want to see all content as i can in many F2P games, i have to pay €45+66 = €111 ($121 right now, and a whopping $178 at it's all time high).
Seeing that both games already have a priced DLC/expansion, there are more to come, so even more money.
Or take those people that play WoW since release. Even a simple estimate off the sub fee alone is already at around €/$ 1400. Sure, smoking does cost probably more in the same time, but for me (and most people probably, given that everyone always talks about the "whales" is so much cheaper it's almost unfair for P2P. And even B2P games have trouble keeping up with that, given that they also sell expansions, also have a cash shop and so.
To top it off, the actual quaility of the game is literally independent of not only the payment model, but the total budget. Notch (re?)invented a genre and started a golden area of sandbox building games, while CoD is just one reskin after another and every day we see new threads popping up about how MMOs are dead etc.
Which they are not, due to the popularity and profitability of the F2P ones...
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
free-to-download, the opposite, of an upfront purchase
And in a f2p / free-to-download game all the company revenue has to come from a cash shop and, the suggestion is, that most people spend nothing; some spend a small amount; a few (under 5% being suggested) spend a lot. It will vary of course.
What seems to be happening is that - in western markets but the concept is also being pushed in eastern - for an upfront payment. Technically that makes the game b2p. However many are "on sale" for 99 cents or $5 etc. And one argument being that if someone won't spend that for the whole game will they spend anything in the cash shop. A small charge but - crucially - one paid by all players.
People look at the likes of Zynga etc. and see a business model that looks great but. Tough call.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
It's not contradictory at all.
I don't like real money constantly infringing in a fantasy game world.
If people buy items illegally out of game what has that to do with me? That is their choice and it really doesn't effect me. Gold and items are probably sold more out of game now then they were in the early MMOs. There are still plenty of farmers. I've already said I don't believe dangling carrots should be the only focus of the games. That wasn't always the case.
As to your last comment I don't see what that has to do with me, but I'll reply to it. Generally anything sold in the game has an impact. It doesn't matter if it's only visual. I remember in EQ when people would covet an item just because it had a different color then the norm.
Weather the sky is falling or not is irrelevant. The point is it has a negative impact on my overall gaming experience and is why I don't play free to play games.
I also don't trust free to play games. Generally they are running something in the background to monitor you and no this was not always the case.
First people argue you are not spending enough money without free to play then they argue that you are spending to much money if you are not doing free to play. All of this missed the point, but I would argue free to play costs you more in the long run otherwise manufacturers would not do it. They are not nice people who want to give you a good game. They are merely interested in the money. If having a set price for games meant making them more money they would be doing it. As it is most games have a combination of different payment models all rolled into one. Especially MMORPGs.
This is the part I was talking about, specifically. You say that part of your ideal game is that "...people would covet an ite just because it had a different color then the norm."
So what does it matter whether it's purchased via a cash shop or illegally? You're saying that if it's illegal then it's "OK" because it's not affecting you, but in reality it is. That person still has something that you want and they obtained it outside of the game. The fact that you're unaware that they did it illegally is irrelevant, you still covet what they have. It's still impacting your game. So you're essentially saying that you only want to play in games where you can earn items. You can't trade items, they need to be earned by you and you alone. That's cool, really, I'm just saying, maybe MMORPGs aren't for you.
Also, if you're going to say something like "...generally they're running something in the background..." you help your credibility by backing it up with some factual evidence. Otherwise, you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
It's not contradictory at all.
I don't like real money constantly infringing in a fantasy game world.
If people buy items illegally out of game what has that to do with me? That is their choice and it really doesn't effect me. Gold and items are probably sold more out of game now then they were in the early MMOs. There are still plenty of farmers. I've already said I don't believe dangling carrots should be the only focus of the games. That wasn't always the case.
As to your last comment I don't see what that has to do with me, but I'll reply to it. Generally anything sold in the game has an impact. It doesn't matter if it's only visual. I remember in EQ when people would covet an item just because it had a different color then the norm.
Weather the sky is falling or not is irrelevant. The point is it has a negative impact on my overall gaming experience and is why I don't play free to play games.
I also don't trust free to play games. Generally they are running something in the background to monitor you and no this was not always the case.
First people argue you are not spending enough money without free to play then they argue that you are spending to much money if you are not doing free to play. All of this missed the point, but I would argue free to play costs you more in the long run otherwise manufacturers would not do it. They are not nice people who want to give you a good game. They are merely interested in the money. If having a set price for games meant making them more money they would be doing it. As it is most games have a combination of different payment models all rolled into one. Especially MMORPGs.
This is the part I was talking about, specifically. You say that part of your ideal game is that "...people would covet an ite just because it had a different color then the norm."
So what does it matter whether it's purchased via a cash shop or illegally? You're saying that if it's illegal then it's "OK" because it's not affecting you, but in reality it is. That person still has something that you want and they obtained it outside of the game. The fact that you're unaware that they did it illegally is irrelevant, you still covet what they have. It's still impacting your game. So you're essentially saying that you only want to play in games where you can earn items. You can't trade items, they need to be earned by you and you alone. That's cool, really, I'm just saying, maybe MMORPGs aren't for you.
Also, if you're going to say something like "...generally they're running something in the background..." you help your credibility by backing it up with some factual evidence. Otherwise, you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
In terms of buying items as I said already I don't want to see the mechanic to purchase things for real money in game. If something is brought outside of game I don't care. The effect is that I have to see a window of some kind in game where I can purchase things for real money.
Everyone knows these companies sell your data. Goggle started it a long time ago with their search engine. Now all free software and many paid software do as well. Generally the free software's are the ones that abuse it the most though. Obviously I can't prove it, but I don't really need to. It is something that has been going on for a long a while now. It wasn't really around in MMOs until the last maybe 10 years, but it was in other software before that such as search engines as I mentioned.
Most newer games don't offer free trials for several months.
The underlying point still stands, try before you buy is a great concept that benefits the consumer.
In a free to play game I get to try almost every single part before I plunk any money down. If the game isn't fun first, they don't make any money. In pay 2 play money is made from the expectations of the game before you actually play it.
That is why the model is really with subscription, get all those people at the rush, then go free to play later and stay high with the profits.
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
It's not contradictory at all.
I don't like real money constantly infringing in a fantasy game world.
If people buy items illegally out of game what has that to do with me? That is their choice and it really doesn't effect me. Gold and items are probably sold more out of game now then they were in the early MMOs. There are still plenty of farmers. I've already said I don't believe dangling carrots should be the only focus of the games. That wasn't always the case.
As to your last comment I don't see what that has to do with me, but I'll reply to it. Generally anything sold in the game has an impact. It doesn't matter if it's only visual. I remember in EQ when people would covet an item just because it had a different color then the norm.
Weather the sky is falling or not is irrelevant. The point is it has a negative impact on my overall gaming experience and is why I don't play free to play games.
I also don't trust free to play games. Generally they are running something in the background to monitor you and no this was not always the case.
First people argue you are not spending enough money without free to play then they argue that you are spending to much money if you are not doing free to play. All of this missed the point, but I would argue free to play costs you more in the long run otherwise manufacturers would not do it. They are not nice people who want to give you a good game. They are merely interested in the money. If having a set price for games meant making them more money they would be doing it. As it is most games have a combination of different payment models all rolled into one. Especially MMORPGs.
This is the part I was talking about, specifically. You say that part of your ideal game is that "...people would covet an ite just because it had a different color then the norm."
So what does it matter whether it's purchased via a cash shop or illegally? You're saying that if it's illegal then it's "OK" because it's not affecting you, but in reality it is. That person still has something that you want and they obtained it outside of the game. The fact that you're unaware that they did it illegally is irrelevant, you still covet what they have. It's still impacting your game. So you're essentially saying that you only want to play in games where you can earn items. You can't trade items, they need to be earned by you and you alone. That's cool, really, I'm just saying, maybe MMORPGs aren't for you.
Also, if you're going to say something like "...generally they're running something in the background..." you help your credibility by backing it up with some factual evidence. Otherwise, you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
In terms of buying items as I said already I don't want to see the mechanic to purchase things for real money in game. If something is brought outside of game I don't care. The effect is that I have to see a window of some kind in game where I can purchase things for real money.
Everyone knows these companies sell your data. Goggle started it a long time ago with their search engine. Now all free software and many paid software do as well. Generally the free software's are the ones that abuse it the most though. Obviously I can't prove it, but I don't really need to. It is something that has been going on for a long a while now. It wasn't really around in MMOs until the last maybe 10 years, but it was in other software before that such as search engines as I mentioned.
That's cool, I was only pointing out that it's odd how you would have an issue supporting a game that you enjoy, but take no issue to someone buying something illegally and nothing being done about it. We obviously have different perspectives on the issue and won't see eye-to-eye, not that either is right or wrong, just different.
Actually, if we're talking about the sale/leasing of information then F2P MMOs would be the least of my concern. They actually have a very small subset of my data, like maybe my email and name. P2P games have all my financial data, address, etc., etc. In fact, I get a plethora of calls from partners of my credit card company who seem to want to thank me for being a valued customer of my credit card company and want to send me free stuff. I tell them to sod off, usually, others I'll get excited more and more when they tell me what I've won. If someone wants to steal my gaming email address, cool. You may join the tens of thousands of unread emails.
People don't play games to have fun. People play games to beat the odds or beat the other players. If there is no challenge to overcome, there is no game. Taking advantage of that fact for monetary gain is not new. Do you really think a set of golf clubs could be worth 5,000+ ? It's not because they make you giggle till you pee when you swing them (individual results may vary) I can appreciate that you don't find it worth it, but that's because you don't appreciate the challenge. If you did enjoy the challenge, you might just be writing about how it's nothing new to spend a few dollars because you're having "fun"
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Originally posted by eye_mPeople don't play games to have fun. People play games to beat the odds or beat the other players. If there is no challenge to overcome, there is no game. Taking advantage of that fact for monetary gain is not new. Do you really think a set of golf clubs could be worth 5,000+ ? It's not because they make you giggle till you pee when you swing them (individual results may vary) I can appreciate that you don't find it worth it, but that's because you don't appreciate the challenge. If you did enjoy the challenge, you might just be writing about how it's nothing new to spend a few dollars because you're having "fun"
Now this is an odd statement. Fun is at the core of why virtually everyone (and I yes I do mean everyone on the entire planet) play games. Yes challenge is also there and so is beating other people. However those are just things that that person finds fun.
Everyone plays games for fun. They may not play every single game for fun (athletes and careers being one exception) but fun is the primary reason for a games existence.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by eye_mPeople don't play games to have fun. People play games to beat the odds or beat the other players. If there is no challenge to overcome, there is no game. Taking advantage of that fact for monetary gain is not new. Do you really think a set of golf clubs could be worth 5,000+ ? It's not because they make you giggle till you pee when you swing them (individual results may vary) I can appreciate that you don't find it worth it, but that's because you don't appreciate the challenge. If you did enjoy the challenge, you might just be writing about how it's nothing new to spend a few dollars because you're having "fun"
Now this is an odd statement. Fun is at the core of why virtually everyone (and I yes I do mean everyone on the entire planet) play games. Yes challenge is also there and so is beating other people. However those are just things that that person finds fun.
Everyone plays games for fun. They may not play every single game for fun (athletes and careers being one exception) but fun is the primary reason for a games existence.
Throwing a frizbee back and forth between friends is fun, but it's not a game. Water skiing, or jetboarding or parasailing or even reading a good book is fun. To be a game, you add competition. If you suck horribly at any "game" it's not very fun. Saying that a game is"just for fun" is what mothers tell their children when the kid really sucks at it and are trying to mellow the temper tantrum.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Originally posted by eye_mPeople don't play games to have fun. People play games to beat the odds or beat the other players. If there is no challenge to overcome, there is no game. Taking advantage of that fact for monetary gain is not new. Do you really think a set of golf clubs could be worth 5,000+ ? It's not because they make you giggle till you pee when you swing them (individual results may vary) I can appreciate that you don't find it worth it, but that's because you don't appreciate the challenge. If you did enjoy the challenge, you might just be writing about how it's nothing new to spend a few dollars because you're having "fun"
Now this is an odd statement. Fun is at the core of why virtually everyone (and I yes I do mean everyone on the entire planet) play games. Yes challenge is also there and so is beating other people. However those are just things that that person finds fun.
Everyone plays games for fun. They may not play every single game for fun (athletes and careers being one exception) but fun is the primary reason for a games existence.
Throwing a frizbee back and forth between friends is fun, but it's not a game. Water skiing, or jetboarding or parasailing or even reading a good book is fun. To be a game, you add competition. If you suck horribly at any "game" it's not very fun. Saying that a game is"just for fun" is what mothers tell their children when the kid really sucks at it and are trying to mellow the temper tantrum.
I didn't state all fun activities were games. I stated fun is at the heart of games.
And yes tossing a frisbee back and forth can absolutely be a game. There absolutely can be competition in Frisbee.
And yes it still can be a great deal of fun if you suck horribly.
I also didn't say just for fun, I stated fun is the core. However there are a great great many, the majority even? of games that are "just" for fun.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by eye_mPeople don't play games to have fun. People play games to beat the odds or beat the other players. If there is no challenge to overcome, there is no game. Taking advantage of that fact for monetary gain is not new. Do you really think a set of golf clubs could be worth 5,000+ ? It's not because they make you giggle till you pee when you swing them (individual results may vary) I can appreciate that you don't find it worth it, but that's because you don't appreciate the challenge. If you did enjoy the challenge, you might just be writing about how it's nothing new to spend a few dollars because you're having "fun"
Now this is an odd statement. Fun is at the core of why virtually everyone (and I yes I do mean everyone on the entire planet) play games. Yes challenge is also there and so is beating other people. However those are just things that that person finds fun.
Everyone plays games for fun. They may not play every single game for fun (athletes and careers being one exception) but fun is the primary reason for a games existence.
Throwing a frizbee back and forth between friends is fun, but it's not a game. Water skiing, or jetboarding or parasailing or even reading a good book is fun. To be a game, you add competition. If you suck horribly at any "game" it's not very fun. Saying that a game is"just for fun" is what mothers tell their children when the kid really sucks at it and are trying to mellow the temper tantrum.
I didn't state all fun activities were games. I stated fun is at the heart of games.
And yes tossing a frisbee back and forth can absolutely be a game. There absolutely can be competition in Frisbee.
And yes it still can be a great deal of fun if you suck horribly.
I also didn't say just for fun, I stated fun is the core. However there are a great great many, the majority even? of games that are "just" for fun.
EDIT :
I don't feel like taking this any farther away from the original point.
I think that you recognize that a game has either competition or challenge as a requirement.
Enjoying that challenge is what brings us back. If you don't enjoy the challenge then you won't be back, as he proved. I just tried to highlight that.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I don't believe there is an issue with making a game that is too difficult. The problem lies with allow them to pay their way past the problem. There really is no point to paying your way past something complex. It doesn't gain you anything. This seems similar to arcade games of the early years. You had to put in more coins to play. This went away when consoles started to release. Now it's back with digital sales. The up front cost is always better for the player IMO. You might end up not liking the game, but you are never encouraged to spend in order to advance while playing the game. You pay for the product itself instead of the ability to advance in the game. This concept actually made some measure of sense in arcade systems due to no one owning their own device. That is the only way they could make money out of it. In this case it is simple a choice of the developer. They don't have to choose this method to coerce money out of the player.
Up-front costs are terrible for gamers. How many times have you spent $60 on a game you played less than an hour?
I can honestly say zero times. But that's because I won't risk buying a game unless I'm nearly 100% certain I'll like the game enough to play quite a bit.
Of course that also proves your point. It means that if I represent even a sliver of players in that respect, then up-front costs are terrible for developers, too. It almost guarantees that there are games out there that I would have liked but never tried; that I would have paid money into but didn't due to the up-front risk. Though I suppose there's the possibility that a game might get more people to buy it that won't like it than there are people who would like it but never buy it to find out. Daikatana, anyone?
I too am curious about these games where you can "buy progress". But there is one thing that's close in Neverwinter. You can buy a health stone which works off the potion cooldown, that completely heals you. A person who dies on a boss several times could buy one and have a much better chance to beat it. Getting one that doesn't come from the store, directly or indirectly, is extremely rare.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
So you're saying you've never spent money on a game you didn't like in your entire life?
In reality, you get to try far more of a F2P game than you got to try in trial games, so you are much better-protected against being ripped off.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would be more or less fine with this model if you weren't paying for items in game. I would even be fine with paying for a new piece of game content like an expansion.
There is no reason to have in game items as the selling point IMO. It should be the whole package (game) or an expansion that is sold. Why not just offer the game and if people like it they can pay for the whole package? That would be real free to play.
I guess some people just don't get the concept of wanting to play a game without having to think about buying items for real money.
Ever since Gamepro and EGM (magazines) came out back in the late 80's, I have very rarely made a gaming purchase that I regretted. These guys were harsh on shit games and their review scores would be painfully honest. Nowadays with the internet and tools such as YouTube it's even easier to filter out the terrible from the good. Sure, you could ignore all of this and take a blind gamble every time you buy a game, but why would you do that?
Free trials have always been fine; if you need more than a week or two to figure out if you like a game you're probably a nightmare to go shopping with. Free trials are a great deal for both consumers and producers. You never have to worry about running into a nasty pay wall (surprise!!!), having the pleasure of watching the payment model of a game you've invested a lot of your time in slowly change course from "hey this isn't stepping on my toes" to "what the fuck are they thinking", or even having to take a little "timeout" from gameplay because you have decided you do not want to pay for yet another thing.
Thanks but free trials (not to mention the internet) are enough protection for me.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If you're playing a free game and thinking about having to buy items for real money, I feel really bad for you. Again, I have kids ranging from 8 years old to 13 and none have ever expressed any "need" to purchase something in any F2P MMORPG. I'll prescribe a healthy dose of 20 hours of F2P games per week without purchasing anything!
Seriously though, what game is it that you're playing where you feel like this?
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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So basically you are saying that we have a game designed to tempt you to buy items in game and if I am not strong enough to resist that I'm a sorry person.
The point you miss is that games are escapism and having to be restricted in terms of what you can have or where you can go inside a game world based on real money is a terrible concept IMO.
Sure I could play small portions of a free to play game and never pay any money, but it will not be enjoyable because the illusion is broken when money intrudes upon the game in such a glaring way.
I would rather pay for the game and not have to worry about it intruding. Maybe I would end up wasting more money in the end, but it would be worth it for me.
I guess if your goal is to play games for free and accept that you can't play the whole game without paying for a variety of different items with real money then I guess you are happy. To me this defeats the point of things like games, TV, and movies which is escapism.
I think that you should probably just stick to everything on the WiiU. Just sayin'
You're saying that the model isn't the problem, it's the tempting you into buying stuff. Well every single MMO is based on dangling a carrot in front of your face that you have to work to get. Otherwise, you can always just buy it from the Internets. It's been going on for well over 10 years now. I find it mildly hilarious that people conveniently forget that there have been in-game items bought and sold on the Internet and BBS' since multiplayer gaming surfaced and allowed for it.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Dangling a carrot for fake money or time is ok IMO.
Dangling a carrot for real money is infringement on immersion.
People who buy items/characters/gold out of game illegally are not my concern.
Then again I'm one of the people who are advocating that MMOs should not be about carrot dangling. There were a lot of others things happening that I mentioned in other posts then dangling carrots. Dangling carrots has just become the sole focus because it's easier to make a game that works and is sold that way. You don't have to think about complex designs and getting everything to work. You just throw up a GPS and lead people along to the next carrot weather it is solo, PvP, or PvE.
It's a brave soul who hinges his argument on the integrity of gaming journalism. Even when I was younger I understood that these magazines were a bad way of telling whether or not a game would actually be enjoyable.
A free trial always includes a pay wall, and that pay wall is nastier than the majority of free to play games (where paying is optional.) Trials are by definition a minority of the game with the majority being hidden behind a pay wall. Meanwhile F2P gives you the majority of the game for free with a minority of often optional content behind a pay wall.
Objectively F2P games are less gated by paying.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah, journalist are the least likely group to influence my purchases. At least as far as opinions go. If some factual information like this game formats your hard drive is in their blurb, then sure that would influence it.
Free to play is part of a natural progression in business models. We had pay by hour (AOL, INN/TSN @ $6.00 per hour) and people said that is too expensive and lower the cost barrier to entry. Then we got purchase and sub model which got the same cost barrier complaint. Now we have the free to play. What is next? Hopefully they pay to you play!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This is all a bit contradictory, isn't it?
So you're ok with people buying stuff illegally which, inherently, grows the farming industry, leads to more spam in games, leads to more farmers in games.
You are NOT ok with items being sold within a game, legally, which do not provide NEARLY the same amount of value to the player, or the "end game" as something purchased illegally. Plus, you are giving money back to the game which allows them to continue development on a game that you obviously enjoy or you wouldn't care enough to be upset by, and spend time developing code to thwart farmers and bots.
It should be stressed that there have been no F2P MMOs listed here as an example where you can buy items through the in-game cash shop which are Tier (end-game) gear.
On the other hand, I could provide you with a veritable laundry list of places where I can buy gold online, end-game items, etc., etc. That being said, this isn't about a territorial pissing match, it's about people running around yelling that the sky is falling when it simply isn't a problem. There is nothing being sold in a F2P MMORPG that is changing the balance of the game.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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It's not contradictory at all.
I don't like real money constantly infringing in a fantasy game world.
If people buy items illegally out of game what has that to do with me? That is their choice and it really doesn't effect me. Gold and items are probably sold more out of game now then they were in the early MMOs. There are still plenty of farmers. I've already said I don't believe dangling carrots should be the only focus of the games. That wasn't always the case.
As to your last comment I don't see what that has to do with me, but I'll reply to it. Generally anything sold in the game has an impact. It doesn't matter if it's only visual. I remember in EQ when people would covet an item just because it had a different color then the norm.
Weather the sky is falling or not is irrelevant. The point is it has a negative impact on my overall gaming experience and is why I don't play free to play games.
I also don't trust free to play games. Generally they are running something in the background to monitor you and no this was not always the case.
First people argue you are not spending enough money without free to play then they argue that you are spending to much money if you are not doing free to play. All of this missed the point, but I would argue free to play costs you more in the long run otherwise manufacturers would not do it. They are not nice people who want to give you a good game. They are merely interested in the money. If having a set price for games meant making them more money they would be doing it. As it is most games have a combination of different payment models all rolled into one. Especially MMORPGs.
Free trials, especially those limited by level or areas, just hide the "bad" stuff behind the pay wall. And most "two weeks" trials where "two weeks or 10 hours, whichever is reached first" or something like that. And usually, you do not have two continous weeks to spare anyways, you'd need like several months to actually use "two weeks" of time.
F2P games allow you to play for absolute free as long as you want. While i fully understand the feeling of needing to pay to be able to enjoy it, i prefer to walk away from it. I played DDO, Neverwinter, Warframe, Vindictus and lots of generic korea grinders like R.O.S.E etc.
I spent €22,50 on platinum in Warframe, but only on a 50% off offer. Didn't actually feel the "need" to buy it, but wanted to give something back because while it lasted, it was quite fun. Spent a similar amount on Vindictus for some nice underwear for my Vella. This was more "forced" because the basic underwear does clash with many armors, but i did play Vindictus a lot, and €50-100 on cash shop items in 20 years in MMOs..
So if i want to play ESO i have to pay €55 up front, despite it having a cash shop and not actually offering everything in the regular version. If i want to play FF XIV including the expansion, it's €45. Alternatively i can buy only FF XIV for €10, but then i do not have all content again .I also have to pay the monthly subscription fee if i want to keep playing, which is between €66 at once for 180 days, or 6*13 = 78 if i pay only for one month as to not waste too much if i happen to stop in between. Oh, did i mention there's a collectors edition for €25? And lets not forget the cash shop.
If i want to see all content as i can in many F2P games, i have to pay €45+66 = €111 ($121 right now, and a whopping $178 at it's all time high).
Seeing that both games already have a priced DLC/expansion, there are more to come, so even more money.
Or take those people that play WoW since release. Even a simple estimate off the sub fee alone is already at around €/$ 1400. Sure, smoking does cost probably more in the same time, but for me (and most people probably, given that everyone always talks about the "whales" is so much cheaper it's almost unfair for P2P. And even B2P games have trouble keeping up with that, given that they also sell expansions, also have a cash shop and so.
To top it off, the actual quaility of the game is literally independent of not only the payment model, but the total budget. Notch (re?)invented a genre and started a golden area of sandbox building games, while CoD is just one reskin after another and every day we see new threads popping up about how MMOs are dead etc.
Which they are not, due to the popularity and profitability of the F2P ones...
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
This is the part I was talking about, specifically. You say that part of your ideal game is that "...people would covet an ite just because it had a different color then the norm."
So what does it matter whether it's purchased via a cash shop or illegally? You're saying that if it's illegal then it's "OK" because it's not affecting you, but in reality it is. That person still has something that you want and they obtained it outside of the game. The fact that you're unaware that they did it illegally is irrelevant, you still covet what they have. It's still impacting your game. So you're essentially saying that you only want to play in games where you can earn items. You can't trade items, they need to be earned by you and you alone. That's cool, really, I'm just saying, maybe MMORPGs aren't for you.
Also, if you're going to say something like "...generally they're running something in the background..." you help your credibility by backing it up with some factual evidence. Otherwise, you sound like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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In terms of buying items as I said already I don't want to see the mechanic to purchase things for real money in game. If something is brought outside of game I don't care. The effect is that I have to see a window of some kind in game where I can purchase things for real money.
Everyone knows these companies sell your data. Goggle started it a long time ago with their search engine. Now all free software and many paid software do as well. Generally the free software's are the ones that abuse it the most though. Obviously I can't prove it, but I don't really need to. It is something that has been going on for a long a while now. It wasn't really around in MMOs until the last maybe 10 years, but it was in other software before that such as search engines as I mentioned.
That's cool, I was only pointing out that it's odd how you would have an issue supporting a game that you enjoy, but take no issue to someone buying something illegally and nothing being done about it. We obviously have different perspectives on the issue and won't see eye-to-eye, not that either is right or wrong, just different.
Actually, if we're talking about the sale/leasing of information then F2P MMOs would be the least of my concern. They actually have a very small subset of my data, like maybe my email and name. P2P games have all my financial data, address, etc., etc. In fact, I get a plethora of calls from partners of my credit card company who seem to want to thank me for being a valued customer of my credit card company and want to send me free stuff. I tell them to sod off, usually, others I'll get excited more and more when they tell me what I've won. If someone wants to steal my gaming email address, cool. You may join the tens of thousands of unread emails.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Now this is an odd statement. Fun is at the core of why virtually everyone (and I yes I do mean everyone on the entire planet) play games. Yes challenge is also there and so is beating other people. However those are just things that that person finds fun.
Everyone plays games for fun. They may not play every single game for fun (athletes and careers being one exception) but fun is the primary reason for a games existence.
Throwing a frizbee back and forth between friends is fun, but it's not a game. Water skiing, or jetboarding or parasailing or even reading a good book is fun. To be a game, you add competition. If you suck horribly at any "game" it's not very fun. Saying that a game is"just for fun" is what mothers tell their children when the kid really sucks at it and are trying to mellow the temper tantrum.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I didn't state all fun activities were games. I stated fun is at the heart of games.
And yes tossing a frisbee back and forth can absolutely be a game. There absolutely can be competition in Frisbee.
And yes it still can be a great deal of fun if you suck horribly.
I also didn't say just for fun, I stated fun is the core. However there are a great great many, the majority even? of games that are "just" for fun.
EDIT :
I don't feel like taking this any farther away from the original point.
I think that you recognize that a game has either competition or challenge as a requirement.
Enjoying that challenge is what brings us back. If you don't enjoy the challenge then you won't be back, as he proved. I just tried to highlight that.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I can honestly say zero times. But that's because I won't risk buying a game unless I'm nearly 100% certain I'll like the game enough to play quite a bit.
Of course that also proves your point. It means that if I represent even a sliver of players in that respect, then up-front costs are terrible for developers, too. It almost guarantees that there are games out there that I would have liked but never tried; that I would have paid money into but didn't due to the up-front risk. Though I suppose there's the possibility that a game might get more people to buy it that won't like it than there are people who would like it but never buy it to find out. Daikatana, anyone?
I too am curious about these games where you can "buy progress". But there is one thing that's close in Neverwinter. You can buy a health stone which works off the potion cooldown, that completely heals you. A person who dies on a boss several times could buy one and have a much better chance to beat it. Getting one that doesn't come from the store, directly or indirectly, is extremely rare.
You've apparently been spying on me while I play pool.
Just call it MOO games.
It's basicly just milking the cow.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
MOOcow takes offense to that, sir.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre