"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
F2P isn't a model though. It's a phase. Every game that has come out in the last 5 years wen free to play in a year, FF14 being the one exception. All other sub model games were sub before the free account trend began.
The game trend I am watching right now is the Skyrim trend. Open world, Single player campaign games. True free to play. Buy it, play it `till your eyes melt out. I expect more and more of them with an online mode in the future too. They will make their money on the box and single player expansions. Throw in the multi player as a bonus.
F2P isn't a model though. It's a phase. Every game that has come out in the last 5 years wen free to play in a year, FF14 being the one exception. All other sub model games were sub before the free account trend began.
The game trend I am watching right now is the Skyrim trend. Open world, Single player campaign games. True free to play. Buy it, play it `till your eyes melt out. I expect more and more of them with an online mode in the future too. They will make their money on the box and single player expansions. Throw in the multi player as a bonus.
Well.. yea, buy the game and play it forever, what a nice concept! What I think will happen is this:
- Phase 1. The "crowdfunding". The biggest scam in the history of gaming. Pay for air. Keep it up for 1-2 years so you hook all the suckers. For 95 out of 100 "games", things will start and end with this phase
- Phase 2: The CB phase. Pay for testing. keep this up for at least 6 months. Offer "founder packs" of at least 50 bucks each, packs which grant you access to CB,
- Phase 3: Early Access and OB. To all of those which did not bite and buy a founder's pack, offer at least one or two weeks of early access, and "starter packs" which grant early access, 20 bucks each, at least
- Phase 4: The launch of a decent game which everyone can play "for free". Be sure to add upgrade systems like enchant / enhance items, with a 0.02% chances of success at higher tiers. Sell expensive cash shop items that guarantee success
- Phase 5: Keep the game on life support for one or two years, until all the suckers get to "end game". Make sure that the end game cannot be reached without upgrading equipment by using the cash shop. Offer an option to trade ingame currency to premium currency and proudly post "everything can be obtained in game!" even though it would take 283 years to upgrade all your gear by using the ingame currency. When a few people beat the content, announce an expansion
- Phase 6: Give beta offers for the expansion, as founder packs, Keep it up for 6 months at least, grab all the suckers
- Phase 7: :Create 2 new zones and 8 new "kill 10 boars" repeatable quests. Call it an "expansion". Design a huge grind for some insane endgame gear, Do not offer any decent in-between gear, people should upgrade their old stuff. Link the grind to the cash shop, like making the game insanely hard so people have to upgrade gear using the cash shop. They won't leave their characters now, when they're close to glory, right? Grab all the suckers you can.
- Phase 8: Redesign the game. Say that Phase 7 was a mistake. The game was too hard. Offer brand new and better gear, so people have to spend money again to upgrade that gear. Let every sucker catch up
= Phase 9: :Launch a new expansion, designed exactly like Phase 7
All of these are taken from actual games I've played, you might recognize some
F2P isn't a model though. It's a phase. Every game that has come out in the last 5 years wen free to play in a year, FF14 being the one exception. All other sub model games were sub before the free account trend began.
The game trend I am watching right now is the Skyrim trend. Open world, Single player campaign games. True free to play. Buy it, play it `till your eyes melt out. I expect more and more of them with an online mode in the future too. They will make their money on the box and single player expansions. Throw in the multi player as a bonus.
Well.. yea, buy the game and play it forever, what a nice concept! What I think will happen is this:
- Phase 1. The "crowdfunding". The biggest scam in the history of gaming. Pay for air. Keep it up for 1-2 years so you hook all the suckers. For 95 out of 100 "games", things will start and end with this phase
- Phase 2: The CB phase. Pay for testing. keep this up for at least 6 months. Offer "founder packs" of at least 50 bucks each, packs which grant you access to CB,
- Phase 3: Early Access and OB. To all of those which did not bite and buy a founder's pack, offer at least one or two weeks of early access, and "starter packs" which grant early access, 20 bucks each, at least
- Phase 4: The launch of a decent game which everyone can play "for free". Be sure to add upgrade systems like enchant / enhance items, with a 0.02% chances of success at higher tiers. Sell expensive cash shop items that guarantee success
- Phase 5: Keep the game on life support for one or two years, until all the suckers get to "end game". Make sure that the end game cannot be reached without upgrading equipment by using the cash shop. Offer an option to trade ingame currency to premium currency and proudly post "everything can be obtained in game!" even though it would take 283 years to upgrade all your gear by using the ingame currency. When a few people beat the content, announce an expansion
- Phase 6: Give beta offers for the expansion, as founder packs, Keep it up for 6 months at least, grab all the suckers
- Phase 7: :Create 2 new zones and 8 new "kill 10 boars" repeatable quests. Call it an "expansion". Design a huge grind for some insane endgame gear, Do not offer any decent in-between gear, people should upgrade their old stuff. Link the grind to the cash shop, like making the game insanely hard so people have to upgrade gear using the cash shop. They won't leave their characters now, when they're close to glory, right? Grab all the suckers you can.
- Phase 8: Redesign the game. Say that Phase 7 was a mistake. The game was too hard. Offer brand new and better gear, so people have to spend money again to upgrade that gear. Let every sucker catch up
= Phase 9: :Launch a new expansion, designed exactly like Phase 7
All of these are taken from actual games I've played, you might recognize some
You didnt happen to be a fmr CEO of SOE?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
Damn, Vermillion.
Well put to the point where I almost feel as if I can just walk away from the whole "F2P" discussion altogether. You nailed it with that post.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think f2p games are being sold on their merits more than pay to play. Again the game had to be fun first before people will pay. If it's not fun first they just leave without spending anything. The fun comes first.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good.
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good.
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
You need to try again; and harder. He owes no counterargument. His point was clear and concise.
'"F2P" is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good'. Delectable. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good.
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
You need to try again; and harder. He owes no counterargument. His point was clear and concise.
'"F2P" is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good'. Delectable. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
^Yep...and needs no proof. You want proof? Look it up yourself.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good.
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
You need to try again; and harder. He owes no counterargument. His point was clear and concise.
'"F2P" is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good'. Delectable. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
^Yep...and needs no proof. You want proof? Look it up yourself.
Exactly! P2P is clearly more closely tied to the quality of the game, as purchase decisions are based on marketing, and that is always more accurate than any actual personal experience. In F2P you have to make up your own mind, based on your own experience, and this is clearly not accurate. If people could decide for themselves what they liked, the market would be chaos.
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
Damn, Vermillion.
Well put to the point where I almost feel as if I can just walk away from the whole "F2P" discussion altogether. You nailed it with that post.
You might as well walk away because anyone that plays a F2P game doesn't give a rats ass what the two of you think.
They are playing a game they enjoy and might even be paying for although thats optional.
So who are you two to say thats wrong? Put your money where your mouth is and stop whining about what other people are doing with their money and their time.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good.
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
You need to try again; and harder. He owes no counterargument. His point was clear and concise.
'"F2P" is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good'. Delectable. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
^Yep...and needs no proof. You want proof? Look it up yourself.
Exactly! P2P is clearly more closely tied to the quality of the game, as purchase decisions are based on marketing, and that is always more accurate than any actual personal experience. In F2P you have to make up your own mind, based on your own experience, and this is clearly not accurate. If people could decide for themselves what they liked, the market would be chaos.
LoL, well said!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
I agree entirely.
The problem with F2P games today is they try to nickle and dime you, so they sell what people call convenience items. Things that help you level faster or get to be the best gear in game faster or be the best crafter faster. All this to be is BS and is designed to be P2W whether agree with me or not I dont care. It's true anything in game that makes you go faster is winning. Any item that gives you a better stats is winning. F2P has become as shady in MMOs as they are in the mobile world. This is why I stick to P2P. I can deal with FFXIV's cash shop. The game I love it and if it went f2P during its peak I would leave. Its time games stand on P2P or shut down because F2P Milking is bs
That's some spinning up of yarns never seen before.
Sub games have often offered free trials that required neither a box nor sub purchase to test the waters. Free games have nothing proprietary on the taste test model.
Since you all want to bring up transparency and openness how about this tidbit.
How many free to play micro-transactions are visible before you download a free to play game? Is a cash shop part of the screen you have to pass to download the game? Not a chance. You get the game THEN you are told what is inside for sale. What is keeping them from being open about what is for sale and how it affects players - not a damn thing but that they don't want to bring up the topic. That could drive you away if they told you the impact of buying in the game.
So they squelch those who complain on the forum and you end up with people posting in places like this that things are pay to win.
I've got your stopper sadly, if free to play games are so goddamn good -
why do over 80% of people who play them have no interest in paying one
dime for them.
Why do they gloat about it and yet claim it's "good" enough to play.
Who are they lying to about it being good - themselves, the publishers or
both parties?
According to the logic you all present - good means paid.
IF (80% !=paying) {
$game = 'notgood';
}
Still keeping that stance?
If you want to bring up the discussion that money spent is an indicator of value or quality, I'm sad to tell you that free to play games aren't winning in that discussion. The people who don't pay seem to consider it some badge of honor to withhold and those who do pay - pay much more than they should either to be competitive or because they have challenges with holding onto money.
So this fantastical theory that has been created does not get followed up with information from existing games.
If it gets you off to manipulate weak people or those who would compete for their virtual pixels, go ahead and support the flimsiest model of all time but don't attribute more credit to it than it deserves. Give it what it needs - the truth, it's welfare gaming and that's why it's appealing.
As long as THEY get hurt and I don't know THEM, there is no effect on ME.
^ THAT is what free to play gaming is about. The core, the essence, the end.
Lets look at what you have said:
"Sub games have often offered free trials "
This is less historically accurate than you would have us believe. In fact, many P2P games change their business model BEFORE they offer a free trial. Lets just look at the most recent games, TESO and Wildstar. Where are those free trials?
'Why do over 80% of people who play them have no interest in paying one dime for them"
The reality is that 90-95% of the people who play them will never pay for them. The reason is because there is no incentive. They feel that the game is worth their time.... but what is being sold is not worth their money.
Money is spent as an indicator of value, not quality. People spend money because they feel that what they are getting is equal or higher value than the money that they are trading for it. Marketing is all about convincing people about this, which is why P2P is marketing driven. F2P uses the game experience to sell, and although this is cheaper... it is not as effective (on a one for one basis). However, F2P has proven that even though the approach doesnt have a high conversion, it makes it up in volume.
Marketing is all about manipulating people, ever heard the phrase 'Could sell ice to eskimo's?" (I am sure there are others of the same type). It is not about providing quality, value, or even a good experience for the customer, it is about tricking them into spending money, regardless of the facts... which is what P2P is all about.
Comments
An electric fence, but still...
And that's what it's all about...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
-ping!-
F2P isn't a model though. It's a phase. Every game that has come out in the last 5 years wen free to play in a year, FF14 being the one exception. All other sub model games were sub before the free account trend began.
The game trend I am watching right now is the Skyrim trend. Open world, Single player campaign games. True free to play. Buy it, play it `till your eyes melt out. I expect more and more of them with an online mode in the future too. They will make their money on the box and single player expansions. Throw in the multi player as a bonus.
Well.. yea, buy the game and play it forever, what a nice concept! What I think will happen is this:
- Phase 1. The "crowdfunding". The biggest scam in the history of gaming. Pay for air. Keep it up for 1-2 years so you hook all the suckers. For 95 out of 100 "games", things will start and end with this phase
- Phase 2: The CB phase. Pay for testing. keep this up for at least 6 months. Offer "founder packs" of at least 50 bucks each, packs which grant you access to CB,
- Phase 3: Early Access and OB. To all of those which did not bite and buy a founder's pack, offer at least one or two weeks of early access, and "starter packs" which grant early access, 20 bucks each, at least
- Phase 4: The launch of a decent game which everyone can play "for free". Be sure to add upgrade systems like enchant / enhance items, with a 0.02% chances of success at higher tiers. Sell expensive cash shop items that guarantee success
- Phase 5: Keep the game on life support for one or two years, until all the suckers get to "end game". Make sure that the end game cannot be reached without upgrading equipment by using the cash shop. Offer an option to trade ingame currency to premium currency and proudly post "everything can be obtained in game!" even though it would take 283 years to upgrade all your gear by using the ingame currency. When a few people beat the content, announce an expansion
- Phase 6: Give beta offers for the expansion, as founder packs, Keep it up for 6 months at least, grab all the suckers
- Phase 7: :Create 2 new zones and 8 new "kill 10 boars" repeatable quests. Call it an "expansion". Design a huge grind for some insane endgame gear, Do not offer any decent in-between gear, people should upgrade their old stuff. Link the grind to the cash shop, like making the game insanely hard so people have to upgrade gear using the cash shop. They won't leave their characters now, when they're close to glory, right? Grab all the suckers you can.
- Phase 8: Redesign the game. Say that Phase 7 was a mistake. The game was too hard. Offer brand new and better gear, so people have to spend money again to upgrade that gear. Let every sucker catch up
= Phase 9: :Launch a new expansion, designed exactly like Phase 7
All of these are taken from actual games I've played, you might recognize some
You didnt happen to be a fmr CEO of SOE?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The problem with free to play to me is that you're no longer selling the game on its merit of being good. You're selling game play piecemeal in a ways that make quality and fun a secondary concern because of the free threshold. Its a Trojan horse to push a marketing scheme. Game play isn't required to be great just able to be able to push the psychological buttons to get those who spend to spend. This also effects the way gameplay is created and played out. I would rather play a game that is created to be good so that I want to buy it than a game that is designed to frustrate me, entice me to buy or bombard me with marketing.
I agree entirely.
So if we go on an anti-F2P Crusade, defaming the pay type, would that be a...
PAP-Smear Campaign?
Damn, Vermillion.
Well put to the point where I almost feel as if I can just walk away from the whole "F2P" discussion altogether. You nailed it with that post.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Of the various business models, F2P is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good, as payment is voluntary and only after the player has made an informed decision as to the game exeprience. With box sales and subscription, you pay before you play.
Please, if you plan to provide a counterargument, I ask that you include examples from actual games to support your position and not just fictional scenarios.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You need to try again; and harder. He owes no counterargument. His point was clear and concise.
'"F2P" is the truest to sale based on the merit of being good'. Delectable. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
^Yep...and needs no proof. You want proof? Look it up yourself.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Exactly! P2P is clearly more closely tied to the quality of the game, as purchase decisions are based on marketing, and that is always more accurate than any actual personal experience. In F2P you have to make up your own mind, based on your own experience, and this is clearly not accurate. If people could decide for themselves what they liked, the market would be chaos.
You might as well walk away because anyone that plays a F2P game doesn't give a rats ass what the two of you think.
They are playing a game they enjoy and might even be paying for although thats optional.
So who are you two to say thats wrong? Put your money where your mouth is and stop whining about what other people are doing with their money and their time.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
LoL, well said!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The problem with F2P games today is they try to nickle and dime you, so they sell what people call convenience items. Things that help you level faster or get to be the best gear in game faster or be the best crafter faster. All this to be is BS and is designed to be P2W whether agree with me or not I dont care. It's true anything in game that makes you go faster is winning. Any item that gives you a better stats is winning. F2P has become as shady in MMOs as they are in the mobile world. This is why I stick to P2P. I can deal with FFXIV's cash shop. The game I love it and if it went f2P during its peak I would leave. Its time games stand on P2P or shut down because F2P Milking is bs
Lets look at what you have said:
"Sub games have often offered free trials "
This is less historically accurate than you would have us believe. In fact, many P2P games change their business model BEFORE they offer a free trial. Lets just look at the most recent games, TESO and Wildstar. Where are those free trials?
'Why do over 80% of people who play them have no interest in paying one dime for them"
The reality is that 90-95% of the people who play them will never pay for them. The reason is because there is no incentive. They feel that the game is worth their time.... but what is being sold is not worth their money.
Money is spent as an indicator of value, not quality. People spend money because they feel that what they are getting is equal or higher value than the money that they are trading for it. Marketing is all about convincing people about this, which is why P2P is marketing driven. F2P uses the game experience to sell, and although this is cheaper... it is not as effective (on a one for one basis). However, F2P has proven that even though the approach doesnt have a high conversion, it makes it up in volume.
Marketing is all about manipulating people, ever heard the phrase 'Could sell ice to eskimo's?" (I am sure there are others of the same type). It is not about providing quality, value, or even a good experience for the customer, it is about tricking them into spending money, regardless of the facts... which is what P2P is all about.
Makes interesting watching: -
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1019359/Balancing-Monetization-to-Succeed-in
No one forces you to pay a dime.......