No one on their team has game development experience though... soo... I guess if you give them enough money they will figure it out.
No one ever taught me how to draw either, and yet I can masterfully (and have been able to draw since literally before I could walk). No one taught me how to figure out higher dimensions, and yet I did. No one taught me a proper methodology for physics, and yet I figured it out too (and no, the crap they teach as being a scientific methodology in a formal setting is flawed). No one taught me how to figure out quantum gravity, and I have. Given enough time, I could even definitely teach myself the higher mathematics ( I was teaching myself trigonometry and calculus back in 2007, and given the right situation, I could go much deeper still) to create the equation for quantum gravity (for which I have the conceptual theory and details on how and why the current mathematics of relativity needs to be changed).
So based on my own experience in this world, a background of formal paths being the only credible authoritative possibility, is complete nonsense. Hell, the formal education system actually thinks that it is so perfect, that apparently no system has been developed to "catch" those that fall through the cracks. If that was not the case, there would be somewhere I could go with the science & dimensions subjects. Five minutes would be more than enough time with an audience, chalk, a chalkboard and nothing else.
That's great, but with no experience, not many people are going to PAY you because you state you can do something. This applies to drawing, quantum gravity, physics and yes... even MMO GAME DESIGN. Also, as @BCBULLY said, given enough money they might muddle through and figure it out but obviously if nobody on their team has game development experience that is a huge hurdle to overcome.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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That's great, but with no experience, not many people are going to PAY you because you state you can do something. This applies to drawing, quantum gravity, physics and yes... even MMO GAME DESIGN. Also, as @BCBULLY said, given enough money they might muddle through and figure it out but obviously if nobody on their team has game development experience that is a huge hurdle to overcome.
The biggest hurdle is using Unity and C# which makes it impossible to create the MMORPG they pitch unless it's a lobby based dungeon grinder with 6-8 player parties in an instance. Sandbox, open world and hundreds of players on screen is not going to happen with Unity.
They have no experience and they want to program a highly efficient server software to run a MMORPG. Not going to happen!
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
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The biggest hurdle is using Unity and C# which makes it impossible to create the MMORPG they pitch unless it's a lobby based dungeon grinder with 6-8 player parties in an instance. Sandbox, open world and hundreds of players on screen is not going to happen with Unity.
They have no experience and they want to program a highly efficient server software to run a MMORPG. Not going to happen!
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
I'm not really interested in this game, for my reasons alone, but i have to say this: i really like this guy's point of view in the overall scene of gaming. If only more of game's devs studios adopted the "our way or the highway" attitude the gaming world would be a much better place. Yes, a lot of crybabies who think that they're entittled to everything and that the world owes them just because they were born, will strongly disagree with the notion, but that's life. The biggest mistake game companies, especially the mmo ones, have done in the past is listen to the fans more than they should have. Ofc, it is viable for a company and their product to listen to feedback or take suggestions from it's consumers, but only to a certain extent. And only when it's constructive. But if you cater to every forum loudmouth's demands then it will only lead to disaster. Ahem....*Swtor and class balance*.
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
So an Ancient Port Warehouse dungeon but in a group setting.
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
I have trouble warping around my head how you are going to achieve this. I mean 3 months is more time that I spent in most games in the past 10 years. The only games that keep me entertained that long are UO, EQ and AC. You can complete games like the witcher 3 in a week, how the hell are you going to make 3 months worth of content per dungeon ?
In traditional pen and paper, you would take a lot of time just rolling dice, deciding what to do next and talking about what you are doing, a single encounter could easily take an hour. In a video game, the same encounter takes less than a minute.
I understand that there will be blocks that need certain skills or material to overcome but let's assume that my group have all the skills required and enough material gathered to complete any roadblock/puzzle in a dungeon, how long would it take us to cover all the ground/fight every encounter, in a dungeon ? Where will people typically spend most of their time ? Fighting ? Resting ? Running around ? Does it takes several days to build a bridge to cross a chasm even if I already have all the material for it ? Do people have limited action point pool that needs 8 hours sleep to replenish ?
So an Ancient Port Warehouse dungeon but in a group setting.
That's one example. Also think back to Castle Mistmoore, Sebilis, NTOV, Kael, CT, Permafrost in EverQuest. These were dungeons that our guilds and groups spent literal months in clearing from top to bottom, adventuring over weeks and months and leveling up through.
I'm not really interested in this game, for my reasons alone, but i have to say this: i really like this guy's point of view in the overall scene of gaming. If only more of game's devs studios adopted the "our way or the highway" attitude the gaming world would be a much better place. Yes, a lot of crybabies who think that they're entittled to everything and that the world owes them just because they were born, will strongly disagree with the notion, but that's life. The biggest mistake game companies, especially the mmo ones, have done in the past is listen to the fans more than they should have. Ofc, it is viable for a company and their product to listen to feedback or take suggestions from it's consumers, but only to a certain extent. And only when it's constructive. But if you cater to every forum loudmouth's demands then it will only lead to disaster. Ahem....*Swtor and class balance*.
Spot on, i guarantee that if this game had the features the doomsayers in this thread liked or wanted in an mmo they would be praising Renfail.
I have trouble warping around my head how you are going to achieve this. I mean 3 months is more time that I spent in most games in the past 10 years. The only games that keep me entertained that long are UO, EQ and AC. You can complete games like the witcher 3 in a week, how the hell are you going to make 3 months worth of content per dungeon ?
In traditional pen and paper, you would take a lot of time just rolling dice, deciding what to do next and talking about what you are doing, a single encounter could easily take an hour. In a video game, the same encounter takes less than a minute.
I understand that there will be blocks that need certain skills or material to overcome but let's assume that my group have all the skills required and enough material gathered to complete any roadblock/puzzle in a dungeon, how long would it take us to cover all the ground/fight every encounter, in a dungeon ? Where will people typically spend most of their time ? Fighting ? Resting ? Running around ? Does it takes several days to build a bridge to cross a chasm even if I already have all the material for it ? Do people have limited action point pool that needs 8 hours sleep to replenish ?
If you go back to EQ. Castle Mistmoore, Sebilis, NTOV, Kael, CT, Permafrost, just to name a few.
We didn't just go in and head straight for the boss mobs and the "phat lewts". Instead, you spent time, cleared every corner, explored, chatted with your group mates, learned the zone, did sell runs, and it was far, far more than JUST the combat.
Our guilds would spend literal weeks and months in these places, with multiple guild groups running different sections of the zone because of the level differences. Helping out when needed across the groups. It was the lore, the experience, the journey, the comradarie with your group and your guild and the other players in the dungeon...not the destination.
Add to that puzzles that need to be uncovered, crafting components to overcome, magical and mechanical traps and the like.
For anyone who played EQ back in the day, it's a blending of those elements with classic D&D campaign elements.
I'm not really interested in this game, for my reasons alone, but i have to say this: i really like this guy's point of view in the overall scene of gaming. If only more of game's devs studios adopted the "our way or the highway" attitude the gaming world would be a much better place. Yes, a lot of crybabies who think that they're entittled to everything and that the world owes them just because they were born, will strongly disagree with the notion, but that's life. The biggest mistake game companies, especially the mmo ones, have done in the past is listen to the fans more than they should have. Ofc, it is viable for a company and their product to listen to feedback or take suggestions from it's consumers, but only to a certain extent. And only when it's constructive. But if you cater to every forum loudmouth's demands then it will only lead to disaster. Ahem....*Swtor and class balance*.
Have you seen any demands at all on this forum? I think I've seen one person who suggested a change in payment plan. So where are all these "cry baby", "entitled", "Loud mouth" fan smacks directed at? It's almost like an new developer walked in a room full of interested gamers and said "You cray baby, entitled, loud mouths Fuck off!"
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
Ok I'm starting to see where you guys are going with this in reference to D&D campaigns. So are wee looking a servers that can hold a 100 or so players in the open world with multiple dungeons (campaigns?) inside?
I have trouble warping around my head how you are going to achieve this. I mean 3 months is more time that I spent in most games in the past 10 years. The only games that keep me entertained that long are UO, EQ and AC. You can complete games like the witcher 3 in a week, how the hell are you going to make 3 months worth of content per dungeon ?
In traditional pen and paper, you would take a lot of time just rolling dice, deciding what to do next and talking about what you are doing, a single encounter could easily take an hour. In a video game, the same encounter takes less than a minute.
I understand that there will be blocks that need certain skills or material to overcome but let's assume that my group have all the skills required and enough material gathered to complete any roadblock/puzzle in a dungeon, how long would it take us to cover all the ground/fight every encounter, in a dungeon ? Where will people typically spend most of their time ? Fighting ? Resting ? Running around ? Does it takes several days to build a bridge to cross a chasm even if I already have all the material for it ? Do people have limited action point pool that needs 8 hours sleep to replenish ?
If you go back to EQ. Castle Mistmoore, Sebilis, NTOV, Kael, CT, Permafrost, just to name a few.
We didn't just go in and head straight for the boss mobs and the "phat lewts". Instead, you spent time, cleared every corner, explored, chatted with your group mates, learned the zone, did sell runs, and it was far, far more than JUST the combat.
Our guilds would spend literal weeks and months in these places, with multiple guild groups running different sections of the zone because of the level differences. Helping out when needed across the groups. It was the lore, the experience, the journey, the comradarie with your group and your guild and the other players in the dungeon...not the destination.
Add to that puzzles that need to be uncovered, crafting components to overcome, magical and mechanical traps and the like.
For anyone who played EQ back in the day, it's a blending of those elements with classic D&D campaign elements.
It worked in EQ because we were there to level. Everyone was inexperienced with those type of games, it took people months to get to 50 in the original EQ. I was in LGuk for weeks, because we used it to level and for the loot, but I wouldn't say that it had weeks of content.
You are using a skill system in your game, would you say it will take months of camping spawns to get good enough to complete the highest encounter of a dungeon ?
Ok I'm starting to see where you guys are going with this in reference to D&D campaigns. So are wee looking a servers that can hold a 100 or so players in the open world with multiple dungeons (campaigns?) inside?
It's a traditional zone-based MMORPG. Open world, non-instanced. We've got 10 dungeons, 40 zones, and 6 cities planned for Volume I. More or less. We'll probably combine some of the zones and bring that 40 closer to 30; that's where we've still got quite a bit of testing to do in order to find out what we feel comfortable with in terms of size versus performance versus etc.
We're still more than two years from launch, and 16 months into our project. We have a long, long, long way to go, and there's zero reason to make any assumptions at this point. We have goals, we work towards them one at a time, and check them off the list.
It worked in EQ because we were there to level. Everyone was inexperienced with those type of games, it took people months to get to 50 in the original EQ. I was in LGuk for weeks, because we used it to level and for the loot, but I wouldn't say that it had weeks of content.
You are using a skill system in your game, would you say it will take months of camping spawns to get good enough to complete the highest encounter of a dungeon ?
We are looking at it requiring 18 to 24 months of gameplay to level primary skills from to 1 to 100 and achieving Grandmaster status for the "core" player who puts in 15 hours or so per week of gameplay. Hardcore players will obviously get there faster, and casuals will be slower. There won't be any "max level in a month" in our game.
Quests do not give experience points, but instead offer lore and gear, so you won't be able to quest grind. Quests are also 100% optional and are there if you want to follow the main storyline or the dungeon/city specific stories.
We are almost exactly like EQ in the sense that you can go anywhere, do anything, explore dungeons and ruins and caverns and jungles and forests and beyond, and if you want to do quests along the way, you can, but skill-ups for your abilities take place based on successful use of your abilities.
And we have hell levels built into the algorithm.
That also means you won't be able to power-level someone, because skill-ups are not based on experience points, but rather successful use. So a player actually has to be hitting mobs with a bow to gain skill ups, actually picking the lock to earn lockpicking skill points, actually deciphering runes and relics to earn rune-mastery, and so on and so forth.
It worked in EQ because we were there to level. Everyone was inexperienced with those type of games, it took people months to get to 50 in the original EQ. I was in LGuk for weeks, because we used it to level and for the loot, but I wouldn't say that it had weeks of content.
You are using a skill system in your game, would you say it will take months of camping spawns to get good enough to complete the highest encounter of a dungeon ?
We are looking at it requiring 18 to 24 months of gameplay to level primary skills from to 1 to 100 and achieving Grandmaster status for the "core" player who puts in 15 hours or so per week of gameplay. Hardcore players will obviously get there faster, and casuals will be slower. There won't be any "max level in a month" in our game.
Quests do not give experience points, but instead offer lore and gear, so you won't be able to quest grind. Quests are also 100% optional and are there if you want to follow the main storyline or the dungeon/city specific stories.
We are almost exactly like EQ in the sense that you can go anywhere, do anything, explore dungeons and ruins and caverns and jungles and forests and beyond, and if you want to do quests along the way, you can, but skill-ups for your abilities take place based on successful use of your abilities.
And we have hell levels built into the algorithm.
That also means you won't be able to power-level someone, because skill-ups are not based on experience points, but rather successful use. So a player actually has to be hitting mobs with a bow to gain skill ups, actually picking the lock to earn lockpicking skill points, actually deciphering runes and relics to earn rune-mastery, and so on and so forth.
Sounds pretty good, will be following up on your progress. Thanks
I think one has to forget the current 'meta' of present day MMORPG's and go back to the original D and D style of a campaign to see where the developers hope this game will go. As someone above mentioned, it could take hours to flesh out your character. Then you have to find 4-6 other people to go out into the wilds to kill some mobs. In D and D it would take quite a bit of time to hit level 7 or 8. Level 20 was a pipe dream unless you had invested many, many sessions into playing. Dungeons were not done in an hour. A single dungeon level might take anywhere from 5-10 hours to complete with multiple wipes. A multi-level dungeon could take a month easy. Why? Because GM's ( at least the one who ran the sessions I played in ) where nefarious. There was no one end boss mob to kill but a variety of different ones. Each had its own skills and mechanics which had to be learned. Every team member had to perform their task well to succeed.
Aside from the boss-type mobs you have the additional factor of problem solving; ie. building that bridge or having a rope handy to descend to the next level down. Whose carrying all that stuff? What about food, drink and forage? Does the crafting contingent have the requisite skill level to build that bridge? What about your thief/rogue/priest/mage--do they have the skills/spells to spot traps and nullify them?
I think a dungeon could take months to complete. There is a lot going on in there. And since no one character can kill an 'outdoors/dungeon' mob solo, I can see how skills might take time to discover/learn/build up. It's an ambitious project. I am impressed by the SoL team's adherence to the original D and D concepts. I suggest you visit their website and read their blogs and forums. There is a lot of interesting ideas floating around. You may not agree with all of them, or even the manner in which they are expressed, but, that does not mean it is not a project that some people would like to see reach fruition. I am not too proud to admit I am one of those people.
It worked in EQ because we were there to level. Everyone was inexperienced with those type of games, it took people months to get to 50 in the original EQ. I was in LGuk for weeks, because we used it to level and for the loot, but I wouldn't say that it had weeks of content.
You are using a skill system in your game, would you say it will take months of camping spawns to get good enough to complete the highest encounter of a dungeon ?
We are looking at it requiring 18 to 24 months of gameplay to level primary skills from to 1 to 100 and achieving Grandmaster status for the "core" player who puts in 15 hours or so per week of gameplay. Hardcore players will obviously get there faster, and casuals will be slower. There won't be any "max level in a month" in our game.
Quests do not give experience points, but instead offer lore and gear, so you won't be able to quest grind. Quests are also 100% optional and are there if you want to follow the main storyline or the dungeon/city specific stories.
We are almost exactly like EQ in the sense that you can go anywhere, do anything, explore dungeons and ruins and caverns and jungles and forests and beyond, and if you want to do quests along the way, you can, but skill-ups for your abilities take place based on successful use of your abilities.
And we have hell levels built into the algorithm.
That also means you won't be able to power-level someone, because skill-ups are not based on experience points, but rather successful use. So a player actually has to be hitting mobs with a bow to gain skill ups, actually picking the lock to earn lockpicking skill points, actually deciphering runes and relics to earn rune-mastery, and so on and so forth.
Sounds pretty good, will be following up on your progress. Thanks
Yes this all sounds damn good if you ask me.
I'm typically a PVP type of gamer, however after reading through this thread, this game's potential offers so much of what I enjoy in my MMOs that I'm still very much interested. I'll definitely be following to see how things unfold.
Keep up the good work, Renfail (and team). I really like your style.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm typically a PVP type of gamer, however after reading through this thread, this game's potential offers so much of what I enjoy in my MMOs that I'm still very much interested. I'll definitely be following to see how things unfold.
Keep up the good work, Renfail (and team). I really like your style.
Cheers A lot of hard work still ahead of us! One day at a time.
The next episode of Mastery Mastery airs tonight with Nick and Giovanni, going deeper into the archetypes, masteries, and skills system for SoL. Google+ Hangouts at 8 p.m. EST, so feel free to drop by if you have questions for the team. Cheers!
The part that interest me is the dungeons that takes weeks to complete as a 8 person group. What is the scale limitation of an instance with 8 people in it ?
Weeks would be the minimum; the core dungeons will be meant to take 2-3 months to get through, if you want to clear all of the wings.
We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
I hope you guys put in outdoor dungeons and plenty to do in outside areas. I enjoy old school mmos but I am more of a person who enjoys pure adventuring not dungeon grinding in basements. I'm down for new types of dungeons like mountain mazes, forest paths and swamps. But I don't want to spend most of my time in sewers. Give me crystal caves, icy labrynths, places like Misty Thicket and Cragsblade Mountain Peak or dungeons in places like "Deepwater Valley and Greenthumb's Maze or King Renze's Garden." Just not the same dank boring to look at sewer dungeons over and over again. Lets see some "Shah Vashir's Marble Palace" and plenty of new types of dungeons. I'd rather dungeoneer through the Black Forest instead of every dungeon being in the Underdark.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I hope you guys put in outdoor dungeons and plenty to do in outside areas. I enjoy old school mmos but I am more of a person who enjoys pure adventuring not dungeon grinding in basements. I'm down for new types of dungeons like mountain mazes, forest paths and swamps. But I don't want to spend most of my time in sewers. Give me crystal caves, icy labrynths, places like Misty Thicket and Cragsblade Mountain Peak or dungeons in places like "Deepwater Valley and Greenthumb's Maze or King Renze's Garden." Just not the same dank boring to look at sewer dungeons over and over again. Lets see some "Shah Vashir's Marble Palace" and plenty of new types of dungeons. I'd rather dungeoneer through the Black Forest instead of every dungeon being in the Underdark.
With around 40 zones, 10 dungeons, and 6 cities, there is a vast array of landscapes to see and explore...and that's before we even start adding in the Dwearhe and Elenhi/Eldeni ruins and architecture, nor the centuries-old human ruins and castles and beyond. I don't think we've done any sewers yet, although they are planned for beneath Finglis Mirror, as there is a massive series of labrynths and caverns below, as well as underground lakes and rivers that the Blackbirds use for various purposes.
Your experiences with "chat" means nothing. It could just be the shard you are on, the zone you are in, or the actual game you are playing, even the year you played.
My data is all of those things, all at once.
Additionally, "chat" means very little to this discussion because even paying adults can act like children. This is about adult game play and earning your accolades within. Also, I don't think you are aware that ADULTS pay for most every MMORPG. Because even if it is a child playing, it is an adult who is paying. Children don't have incomes or credit cards.
Your argument is pointless, "FREE" screams at the adolescent mind.
So all these children pool into a game, then try to sort their egos out and use Mommies CC to feel better about THEMSELVES. Where as an adult plays these games for their adventure, challenge and roleplaying. To play a role within the community. Not suggesting adults don't have egos, but they recognize a level playing field. And often times are ashamed of playing alongside children who don't have disposable income, & have to listen to this children complain about items, or money.
It would be pointless for me to play a FREE game. I could easily spend $500/month on a game like ArcheAge, or even spend $500 for my guildees and friends so that the people who roam with me are uber too. But I also know this before playing. So what would be the point of even doing it. There is no challenge.. and I myself have no reason to impress children.
Fragile weak minded people with my income, are the ones who fuel FREE TO PLAY, because they wish to be uber among children. These people are called whales. They NEED that feeling of power and spend $$$ to get it, because the ego is a powerful thing. The thousands of other free loaders do not matter the these developers (they have no voice), they are just there to fuel the weak-minded, to spend more. That is the psychology of F2P.
Nobody here is talking about MMOs, nor revenues (just you). You have to frame your mind on MMORPGs over the last 18 years. EQ & WoW are still going.. nearly everything else has allowed children to take over, or have catered to them after these Developers core game elements where shunned by the paying adults. Thus, many games go free, because it is the best way to stay afloat. It is not the best way to build a game, just the best way to earn an income, with the least amount of effort.
All developers will tell you this^
I happen to love Renfail's comments, it is refreshing that he is not catering to the masses of free loaders. It seems those people are offended because they won't be able to play his game, because they deem themselves unworthy. He isn't telling them personally to "Fuck off", only those who place themselves in the demographic that he is telling to FO.
You can play his game if it is ever released. Nothing is stopping you, other than yourself.
I have played a significant number of subscription MMOs and I have also played an even more significant number of F2P MMOs. I still play both.
The fact that you believe that my experiences with Chat are somehow localized to a single shard in a single game is actually amusing and speaks to your actual INEXPERIENCE in MMORPGs. Maybe you're thinking of the "bad old days" when communities were actually helpful and fun to play in. However, back in those days, the core gamer was young. The demographics, really, haven't changed.
Then you go on to say that adults can act as bad as children, which is basically what I'm trying to say in the first place!!!!
Secondly, your completely legitimate assertion that free screams to the adolescent mind is another hilarious anecdote that's entirely unfounded. In reality, the "free lunch" is something that's been around forEVER!!! In fact, the notion that "there is no such thing as a free lunch" has been documented all the way back to the 1930s. This is nothing new, and it's not marketing that is aimed at kids. You're right, they don't have money. Mom and Dad have money. It's the same way that you'll see people with these "free" enter-to-win contests. You need to be 18, though. Yeah!! Free car!!! Then you end up getting phone calls from some guy trying to sell you a freezer full of meat for the next 6 months. I can assure you that, while game companies certainly spend time and money marketing to youth, the primary market of F2P is NOT youth, it's middle-aged players. Players with money. That's who the whales are. There may be anomalous cases of kids spending thousands in a game, but the majority of those cases are middle-aged players.
Oh, and all developers will not tell you this. Actually, everything that you've said is completely contradictory to what developers will tell you. It's doom and gloom and I'm really hoping that people don't take what you say seriously, not that anyone actually would. Again, you sound like a crazy preacher sitting on the side of the street yelling at cars as they go past.
Ummmm, yeah, and I might very well play it. Oh, and I also have 4 kids who I might let play it just to shift that demographic.
For the record, I was simply explaining to you how Renfail's comments could be considered a PR Nightmare, since that concept or seeing how it could create a problem seemed foreign to you. However, our conversation has cleared up a lot of those initial questions.
My friend, you are all over the map trying to explain nothing.
You are complaining about a game, because the developer told YOU... to "FO" ?
No, he did not.
He told those who do not like his concepts to "FO".
So if you don't like it, then you alone, are the one placing YOURSELF in front of his comments. You are complaining about the fact you don't like this (his) game, & therefore being told to whine somewhere else. Be an adult & deal with it.
Actually what he said was if you aren't with us you are against us. He also stated they only want those who are instantly thrilled about the game, which is just an echo chamber. Then went further to imply that the only ones left (if you weren't instantly thrilled and implying limited duality in thought) were free to play crybabies who can fo.
Seriously limited brainpower.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
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All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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We're looking at these dungeons being able to to support a dozen or so groups before we would have to worry about phasing. Of course, much of this will be determined in testing. The largest we've tested so far has been around 30 players at once; that's a far, far cry from what things will be like during launch, but we're also using cloud servers at the moment, which allow for scalability based on demand.
We'll be moving into the next round of testing shortly, and that will double the size of players in a zone, and then we'll be adding on top of that with the early access folks and seeing where our upper cap is in terms of size. We have been doing all of this in pre-alpha for the past 6 months...moving into alpha means we start to test things beyond just the internal team and the friends and family testers, and that means expanding in size and scale and testing upper caps on everything.
The zones we're working with so far have been 3k by 3k by 3k at the minimum; we'll also be testing some 7k zones, and a 10k zone, to see how they fare. The 3k zones "feel" big enough so far; they take about 15 minutes real-time to run straight across wtih no speed buffs, but players will rarely ever be making a bee-line straight across. Instead, there is combat, mobs to run from or fight, guard stations to recover at, and the like. We estimate most zones will take around 45 minutes to cross, assuming a few encounters.
How that plays out with dungeons is a lot different than an open zone, because of tunnels, rooms, side wings, caverns, multiple levels going up and down, and etc. The big thing is that with zero maps, players will have to learn the zones, and that will factor in to the initial time it takes to get through a dungeon.
Again, we're still testing, so those numbers aren't set in stone, and we may increase run speed....plus mounts will change that, as will speed buffs, and the like...and we don't have a maximum size yet. And we won't for quite some time.
In traditional pen and paper, you would take a lot of time just rolling dice, deciding what to do next and talking about what you are doing, a single encounter could easily take an hour. In a video game, the same encounter takes less than a minute.
I understand that there will be blocks that need certain skills or material to overcome but let's assume that my group have all the skills required and enough material gathered to complete any roadblock/puzzle in a dungeon, how long would it take us to cover all the ground/fight every encounter, in a dungeon ? Where will people typically spend most of their time ? Fighting ? Resting ? Running around ? Does it takes several days to build a bridge to cross a chasm even if I already have all the material for it ? Do people have limited action point pool that needs 8 hours sleep to replenish ?
If you go back to EQ. Castle Mistmoore, Sebilis, NTOV, Kael, CT, Permafrost, just to name a few.
We didn't just go in and head straight for the boss mobs and the "phat lewts". Instead, you spent time, cleared every corner, explored, chatted with your group mates, learned the zone, did sell runs, and it was far, far more than JUST the combat.
Our guilds would spend literal weeks and months in these places, with multiple guild groups running different sections of the zone because of the level differences. Helping out when needed across the groups. It was the lore, the experience, the journey, the comradarie with your group and your guild and the other players in the dungeon...not the destination.
Add to that puzzles that need to be uncovered, crafting components to overcome, magical and mechanical traps and the like.
For anyone who played EQ back in the day, it's a blending of those elements with classic D&D campaign elements.
Ok I'm starting to see where you guys are going with this in reference to D&D campaigns. So are wee looking a servers that can hold a 100 or so players in the open world with multiple dungeons (campaigns?) inside?
You are using a skill system in your game, would you say it will take months of camping spawns to get good enough to complete the highest encounter of a dungeon ?
We're still more than two years from launch, and 16 months into our project. We have a long, long, long way to go, and there's zero reason to make any assumptions at this point. We have goals, we work towards them one at a time, and check them off the list.
Quests do not give experience points, but instead offer lore and gear, so you won't be able to quest grind. Quests are also 100% optional and are there if you want to follow the main storyline or the dungeon/city specific stories.
We are almost exactly like EQ in the sense that you can go anywhere, do anything, explore dungeons and ruins and caverns and jungles and forests and beyond, and if you want to do quests along the way, you can, but skill-ups for your abilities take place based on successful use of your abilities.
And we have hell levels built into the algorithm.
That also means you won't be able to power-level someone, because skill-ups are not based on experience points, but rather successful use. So a player actually has to be hitting mobs with a bow to gain skill ups, actually picking the lock to earn lockpicking skill points, actually deciphering runes and relics to earn rune-mastery, and so on and so forth.
Aside from the boss-type mobs you have the additional factor of problem solving; ie. building that bridge or having a rope handy to descend to the next level down. Whose carrying all that stuff? What about food, drink and forage? Does the crafting contingent have the requisite skill level to build that bridge? What about your thief/rogue/priest/mage--do they have the skills/spells to spot traps and nullify them?
I think a dungeon could take months to complete. There is a lot going on in there. And since no one character can kill an 'outdoors/dungeon' mob solo, I can see how skills might take time to discover/learn/build up. It's an ambitious project. I am impressed by the SoL team's adherence to the original D and D concepts. I suggest you visit their website and read their blogs and forums. There is a lot of interesting ideas floating around. You may not agree with all of them, or even the manner in which they are expressed, but, that does not mean it is not a project that some people would like to see reach fruition. I am not too proud to admit I am one of those people.
I'm typically a PVP type of gamer, however after reading through this thread, this game's potential offers so much of what I enjoy in my MMOs that I'm still very much interested. I'll definitely be following to see how things unfold.
Keep up the good work, Renfail (and team). I really like your style.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
My friend, you are all over the map trying to explain nothing.
You are complaining about a game, because the developer told YOU... to "FO" ?
No, he did not.
He told those who do not like his concepts to "FO".
So if you don't like it, then you alone, are the one placing YOURSELF in front of his comments. You are complaining about the fact you don't like this (his) game, & therefore being told to whine somewhere else. Be an adult & deal with it.
Seriously limited brainpower.