I've said it once and I'll say it again, apparently you guys are only reading what you want to hear. These are bully tactics to get money, you honestly think Smart's lawyers are wanting to drag this into a real class action lawsuit? Think again, they don't want to spend that much money, or resources on the principal of Derek's measly $250 he put into SC. Many people who are happy with what's going on have given more. These lawyers are using publicity sites and other media resources to drum up as much negative publicity for RSI as possible, before they make a move for settlement. That's how this works, these lawyers don't want to drag this out, they want a payday, and to be known as the firm that brought the the multi-million dollar project to it's knees. They aren't doing this for the good of investors, or for the good of crowd funded games. They are doing it to make a name for themselves.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million. That's what RSI is doing, they are taking a project that they thought would be small and making it big, well because it is big now. This is what Derek Smart is upset about, he's jealous that this should have been "small game" has turned into the next WoW. He wants that for himself and doesn't know how to get it, so his only course of action is to try and crush his competition. Is Star Citizen off track from the original Kickstarter? Yes, but it doesn't mean squat because the game on the kickstarter page was never supposed to make this much money. It did though, and now the game must reinvent itself if it wishes to be popular, and not deemed a massive failure. Again no one wants to see a $65 million dollar project, that plays like a $5 million dollar project.
Smart is clearly taking advantage of the fact that the masses who have payed into this game, don't really understand game development. Star Citizen is taking as long as it should, for the game it's trying to become. Some people just won't have the patience to wait, and Derek Smart is trying to take advantage of that as best he can.
Random nobody bully wanders in and demands that you obey them and give them all your money. You think it's reasonable to just give them what they want.
Where has Smart stated that he wants money from CIG? He actually is willing to pay for all of the forensic accounting fees associated with the request he's making.
The list of demands from the document sent by his lawyers:
1. A complete forensic accounting (for which Mr. Smart will pay all costs) of expenses to
said consumers who have provided $87.5 million to this crowd-funded campaign. Absent
full disclosure and transparency, Mr. Smart is concerned that Your conduct constitutes
prohibited “unfair or deceptive acts," misrepresentations or deceptive omissions of
material fact, unjust enrichment, breach of contract and other violations, all to the
detriment of those that have "invested" in Your companies and or the product;
2. A completion date for the delivery of the project as promised, now that the Nov 2014 ship
date has been missed;
3. A refund for all those who backed
Where does it say he wants money from them?
I_own_u
I demand you give me copies of all your financials because I believe you are guilty of fraud and breach of contract.
My lawyers will be sending you a letter.
I have 36 years experience... I know my shit.
You must comply or I will have choice but to sue
The problem is I haven't taken $87.5 million from you offering you a service I haven't delivered on yet.
I think this is a good thing for crowd funded games to see what's going on here.
I 100% agree with the bold. How about this? If a crowdfunded game misses dates (beta, release), automatic audits should be triggered.
Smart is clearly taking advantage of the fact that the masses who have payed into this game, don't really understand game development.
Actually, it is Roberts whot takes advantage of the fact that the masses don't really understand game development.
That aside, changing the scope isn't really a problem, the problem imo is how it was done.
He came up with those modules with sole purpose to milk even more money from backers, fair enough, the problem is that it does not seem to be smart move development wise as your are incredibly scattering your development effort that subsequently heavily drains your resources, it's very inefficient.
At the end, Roberts may just end up with 3 half-assed modules instead of albeit not so feature rich, but well working game and still having plenty of money for further development.
And given Robert's record, the former seems very, very probable.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, apparently you guys are only reading what you want to hear. These are bully tactics to get money, you honestly think Smart's lawyers are wanting to drag this into a real class action lawsuit? Think again, they don't want to spend that much money, or resources on the principal of Derek's measly $250 he put into SC. Many people who are happy with what's going on have given more. These lawyers are using publicity sites and other media resources to drum up as much negative publicity for RSI as possible, before they make a move for settlement. That's how this works, these lawyers don't want to drag this out, they want a payday, and to be known as the firm that brought the the multi-million dollar project to it's knees. They aren't doing this for the good of investors, or for the good of crowd funded games. They are doing it to make a name for themselves.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million. That's what RSI is doing, they are taking a project that they thought would be small and making it big, well because it is big now. This is what Derek Smart is upset about, he's jealous that this should have been "small game" has turned into the next WoW. He wants that for himself and doesn't know how to get it, so his only course of action is to try and crush his competition. Is Star Citizen off track from the original Kickstarter? Yes, but it doesn't mean squat because the game on the kickstarter page was never supposed to make this much money. It did though, and now the game must reinvent itself if it wishes to be popular, and not deemed a massive failure. Again no one wants to see a $65 million dollar project, that plays like a $5 million dollar project.
Smart is clearly taking advantage of the fact that the masses who have payed into this game, don't really understand game development. Star Citizen is taking as long as it should, for the game it's trying to become. Some people just won't have the patience to wait, and Derek Smart is trying to take advantage of that as best he can.
Yeah, Roberts changed up a lot of what he promised because he got more than he hoped for, he wanted 20 million but he got more than 80 and even now more players are buying ship models, he feels that he needs to deliver a game that looks like a 100 million $ AAA game, not a 20 million $ average game.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I don't feel like it would be a stretch to say, if Smart were the man running Star Citizen, the budget probably would look something like this. 30 million for salaries, 20 million for a nice big building, 10 million in ads, and 5 million for the game development. The rest of the money would go toward his next terrible project.
At least we know with Roberts that this is the only game he wants to make, one that mixes many aspects of different genres, which from the sounds of it, will be quite a decent playing experience. As long as people don't get caught up in the trolls like Smart.
I don't feel like it would be a stretch to say, if Smart were the man running Star Citizen, the budget probably would look something like this. 30 million for salaries, 20 million for a nice big building, 10 million in ads, and 5 million for the game development. The rest of the money would go toward his next terrible project.
At least we know with Roberts that this is the only game he wants to make, one that mixes many aspects of different genres, which from the sounds of it, will be quite a decent playing experience. As long as people don't get caught up in the trolls like Smart.
After what he did with Alganon, i will say that is about 200% correct.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I don't feel like it would be a stretch to say, if Smart were the man running Star Citizen, the budget probably would look something like this. 30 million for salaries, 20 million for a nice big building, 10 million in ads, and 5 million for the game development. The rest of the money would go toward his next terrible project.
At least we know with Roberts that this is the only game he wants to make, one that mixes many aspects of different genres, which from the sounds of it, will be quite a decent playing experience. As long as people don't get caught up in the trolls like Smart.
What if they do? What if they never heard of Derick? What if they think RSI is the greatest thing ever? None of it means a thing. None of it has an affect on if the games development or release. You can't blame the consumer for development issues.
I don't feel like it would be a stretch to say, if Smart were the man running Star Citizen, the budget probably would look something like this. 30 million for salaries, 20 million for a nice big building, 10 million in ads, and 5 million for the game development. The rest of the money would go toward his next terrible project.
At least we know with Roberts that this is the only game he wants to make, one that mixes many aspects of different genres, which from the sounds of it, will be quite a decent playing experience. As long as people don't get caught up in the trolls like Smart.
What if they do? What if they never heard of Derick? What if they think RSI is the greatest thing ever? None of it means a thing. None of it has an affect on if the games development or release. You can't blame the consumer for development issues.
You can blame the consumer for not knowing what they paid for, then complaining about it. Buyer beware, learn it, live it. You are operating under false assumptions, and bringing meaningless points here. The people who paid into the kickstarter were fully aware the scope of the game had changed due to overwhelming demand. They also had, and have the opportunity to get their money back if they were an original kickstarter investor, and are unhappy with the development cycle changes. Given all this Smart has no legs to stand on, and neither does anyone backing his claims. Roberts has made all of this very visible to backers, and anyone that doesn't like the fact that this title is aiming for something game changing, doesn't need to be a part of it. They can simply wait, and choose to pay $75 when the game launches. That all being said, these aren't as much development issues, as they are growing pains.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
If Derek Smart (Derek Smart, Derek Smart) isn't bluffing --which I suspect he is-- about the litigation he better hope something is found. Otherwise, he'll not only be facing penalties from frivolous litigation, but could also be subject to a defamation lawsuit (which there may already be enough public material for this).
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
I am unaware of a 'crowdfunding campaign agreement' that tells CIG that they aren't allowed to disclose anything about what they are doing with the crowd funding money. Sure they are under no obligation to share that information, but I do not believe in it. I believe in transparency TO AN EXTENT. Do people need to know EVERYTHING I spend my money on? No, HELL no. BUT there should be more of a level of transparency in what CIG is doing.
EDIT: You are free to disagree with me, Jester, but our opinions are simply opinions.
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
I can understand fans wanting to attack Smart and defend RSI but I don't think I've ever seen anyone promote lack of transparency by a developer of games as a good thing. And LOL at Cloud "emporium." I think that actually does fit better than Imperium with all those ships for sale
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
I am unaware of a 'crowdfunding campaign agreement' that tells CIG that they aren't allowed to disclose anything about what they are doing with the crowd funding money. Sure they are under no obligation to share that information, but I do not believe in it. I believe in transparency TO AN EXTENT. Do people need to know EVERYTHING I spend my money on? No, HELL no. BUT there should be more of a level of transparency in what CIG is doing.
EDIT: You are free to disagree with me, Jester, but our opinions are simply opinions.
I certainly have to agree with @i_own_u . The backers have replaced traditional investors.. And you can bet your ass those traditional investors were demanding a high degree of transparency in where their money was being spent. Why should backers be treated so differently?
I have no clue if Smart's lawsuit or allegations are legitimate. But to say that backers should get anything less than transparency from the developers is to completely ignore the way investments have worked in the past with game development in favor of simply giving developers free reign to spend money behind closed doors any way they see fit. That's a recipe for disaster.
So in the past, corporations such as Sony and Blizzard were completely out in the open with all their staff meetings, design decisions, and how they spent their money. Every single penny was accounted for on the internet for all the Grognards and other assorted complainers to pore over and criticize. Anything less than this fantasy of how things should be is unacceptable, and a total break with the past in which all these AAA companies conducted themselves according to this standard.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
I am unaware of a 'crowdfunding campaign agreement' that tells CIG that they aren't allowed to disclose anything about what they are doing with the crowd funding money. Sure they are under no obligation to share that information, but I do not believe in it. I believe in transparency TO AN EXTENT. Do people need to know EVERYTHING I spend my money on? No, HELL no. BUT there should be more of a level of transparency in what CIG is doing.
EDIT: You are free to disagree with me, Jester, but our opinions are simply opinions.
I certainly have to agree with @i_own_u . The backers have replaced traditional investors.. And you can bet your ass those traditional investors were demanding a high degree of transparency in where their money was being spent. Why should backers be treated so differently?
I have no clue if Smart's lawsuit or allegations are legitimate. But to say that backers should get anything less than transparency from the developers is to completely ignore the way investments have worked in the past with game development in favor of simply giving developers free reign to spend money behind closed doors any way they see fit. That's a recipe for disaster.
Why do you think crowdfunding have such negativity among many of the forum players here(i don't approve crowdfunding either)? Because almost every single one of them puts this in their agreement that they will never disclose as to what they are spending the money on but backers will indeed see development progress of the game from time to time via developer Q&A session, Star Citizen was not any different. Shroud of the Avatar added a completely different tier of backer, purchasing that tier would allow the backer to visit SoTA developers on monthly basis and see in person what they are doing. Star citizen also had a 250000 $ backer tier i think and that is the one which would get any kind of info disclosed regarding money spending and such, rest would not . You can take it however you want but that is what it is, those were the rule set by RSI and Cloud Imperium during their crowdfunding and backers knew it before they backed. Those are the reasons me and many other don't approve of crowdfunding, of course my best friend did back SC because he is a fan of Roberts and he has a reputation of delivering quality but i still disapprove of this method for the reasons i had read.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I certainly have to agree with @i_own_u . The backers have replaced traditional investors.. And you can bet your ass those traditional investors were demanding a high degree of transparency in where their money was being spent. Why should backers be treated so differently?
I have no clue if Smart's lawsuit or allegations are legitimate. But to say that backers should get anything less than transparency from the developers is to completely ignore the way investments have worked in the past with game development in favor of simply giving developers free reign to spend money behind closed doors any way they see fit. That's a recipe for disaster.
What exactly is transparency here though? People use that word and that word alone to describe what they want... it really doesn't say much. Do people want to see progress... or do they want to see itemized lists of where every single dime has gone, including where employees are spending their paychecks? The nature of this funding, and the nature of true investment are completely different things. The former is a high risk situation, while the latter not so much in most cases (at least in gaming)...
You also have to consider true investors deal with companies in private scenarios during development... Not publicly. I get it people don't wanna be ripped off... that's understandable. Yet expecting a studio to have the same relationship with public crowdfundees, as a corporation would have with it's private investors is a little much IMO. For many reasons. No matter how you slice it, backers need to realize they made a high risk donation that may never pan out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No they should not be transparent about spending crowdfunding money, it is under their crowdfunding campaign agreement that they won't disclose anything other than that they are taking money to make the game. If you are a "producer at heart" then you should know the legal agreement they had backers made when the backers donated money, RSI and Cloud emporium are under no legal obligation to disclose that info. As to what they are doing with game we have seen it and we know what we will be getting in next few months.
I can understand fans wanting to attack Smart and defend RSI but I don't think I've ever seen anyone promote lack of transparency by a developer of games as a good thing. And LOL at Cloud "emporium." I think that actually does fit better than Imperium with all those ships for sale
Man i am sick of writing this, backers agreed to an agreement that RSI or Cloud Imperium(yeah sorry for the "emporium") would not disclose any info other than development progress to the backers, by law RSI and Cloud Imperium are not in any obligation to disclose their accounting book to the backers. It is not only them, SoTA is doing the same, nobody asking them to show their accounting books, they are also way behind delivery date.
"Real" backers are not asking where they are spending money, real backers like my friend are asking how long before they get their package which was supposed to be delivered on november 2014. But even then it was written "estimated delivery date", estimation can be wrong and estimated date can be delayed, "real" backers like my friend understands that but con man like derek "moron" swinged it in a way that his victims(most of these people did not spend a dime in backing SC) who fell for his "transparency in business" bullshit fail to understand even simple english.
Well whatever, next thing i know these morons will start a crowdfunding project to give money to derek "moron".
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million.
That's the thing. No I wouldn't. Sure I would change the scope of the game to allow for my wishlist items to get thrown in the mix, but the game I promised to develop in the Kickstarter would be the game I end up releasing. You can plan on allocating more effort and money to be spent on the back-end of development, but my priority would be to deliver on what I promised to the initial backers.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
You're focusing on the number, just like Derek. You fail to see what the backlash would be if you collected $80 million from people, then released a run of the mill game. You can't be the highest crowdfunded game of all time, and be mediocre. It takes time to develop great things, you understand how long it takes to make a Pixar movie? Or even how long it took to develop Vanilla Wow?
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
You are defending CIG for spending more money on more development. Just because the money is there, doesn't mean that they need to spend it. Money does not = quality product. It certainly can help, however.
Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
Again these are comments based on false accusation, Roberts has been transparent, and the development team sends out constant updates. If you aren't a backer you really have no dog in this fight. Any one in their right minds should understand you can't take $90 million from people and give them a $6 million dollar turd, which is all the kickstarter made by the way, $6 million. All the rest of the money came afterward. Do you expect those people who dumped millions into the game to play a 6 million dollar game? Nope I don't, and I wouldn't play it either.
It's interesting to me that people who claim to be "producers", or even "at heart" ones, would want to see a company take so much money and deliver so little. Honestly if you want a game with content drought go play one of Derek's games. If you want a game with some originality wait for SC. It's only been 2 and half years since the kickstarter ended. I'd like to see someone else try to design a AAA class mmo worth $90 million in under 2 years like you seem to want Roberts to do, please go do it. I'll be here watching it fail at luanch because it was rushed and bugged.
Then you ask them to spend more in a "decent PR / Marketing team"? Marketing for whom? The game isn't ready for non backers to know about yet, as it's not close enough to launch. The game has already generated $90 million in interest, who else should they do marketing for? The core of the playerbase has already backed the game, people who are less interested, or hype train riders, will find out after it launches. Of course more marketing will be done before launch, but hell the Wing Commander movie is now being featured on Netflix, you think that's by accident? I think you are confused on what this game really needs, and what you think is right.
Again these are comments based on false accusation, Roberts has been transparent, and the development team sends out constant updates. If you aren't a backer you really have no dog in this fight. Any one in their right minds should understand you can't take $90 million from people and give them a $6 million dollar turd, which is all the kickstarter made by the way, $6 million. All the rest of the money came afterward. Do you expect those people who dumped millions into the game to play a 6 million dollar game? Nope I don't, and I wouldn't play it either.
It's interesting to me that people who claim to be "producers", or even "at heart" ones, would want to see a company take so much money and deliver so little. Honestly if you want a game with content drought go play one of Derek's games. If you want a game with some originality wait for SC. It's only been 2 and half years since the kickstarter ended. I'd like to see someone else try to design a AAA class mmo worth $90 million in under 2 years like you seem to want Roberts to do, please go do it. I'll be here watching it fail at luanch because it was rushed and bugged.
Then you ask them to spend more in a "decent PR / Marketing team"? Marketing for whom? The game isn't ready for non backers to know about yet, as it's not close enough to launch. The game has already generated $90 million in interest, who else should they do marketing for? The core of the playerbase has already backed the game, people who are less interested, or hype train riders, will find out after it launches. Of course more marketing will be done before launch, but hell the Wing Commander movie is now being featured on Netflix, you think that's by accident? I think you are confused on what this game really needs, and what you think is right.
Ok so what is the difference in waiting 8 years for SC to release (throwing a number out there for arguments sake) and having CIG release the game they promised in the kickstarter and adding features as money came in? CR himself even said that this isnt like the old days where everything and the kitchen sink had to be in at launch.
Is it possible they realize they have a license to print money so they are dragging this along for as long as possible? If/when they hit the 100 million dollar mark will CR suddenly make a statement saying that they actually need 150 million to finish the game now, repeat ad nauseum until people stop throwing money at the project?
Comments
Think of it this way, if you made a kickstarter game that you expected to be small to mid scale, and all of a sudden it makes millions would you not change the scope of that game to be in line with the amount of money you took in? Of course you would, no one wants to see a $65 million dollar game that looks like it should have cost $5 million. That's what RSI is doing, they are taking a project that they thought would be small and making it big, well because it is big now. This is what Derek Smart is upset about, he's jealous that this should have been "small game" has turned into the next WoW. He wants that for himself and doesn't know how to get it, so his only course of action is to try and crush his competition. Is Star Citizen off track from the original Kickstarter? Yes, but it doesn't mean squat because the game on the kickstarter page was never supposed to make this much money. It did though, and now the game must reinvent itself if it wishes to be popular, and not deemed a massive failure. Again no one wants to see a $65 million dollar project, that plays like a $5 million dollar project.
Smart is clearly taking advantage of the fact that the masses who have payed into this game, don't really understand game development. Star Citizen is taking as long as it should, for the game it's trying to become. Some people just won't have the patience to wait, and Derek Smart is trying to take advantage of that as best he can.
That aside, changing the scope isn't really a problem, the problem imo is how it was done.
He came up with those modules with sole purpose to milk even more money from backers, fair enough, the problem is that it does not seem to be smart move development wise as your are incredibly scattering your development effort that subsequently heavily drains your resources, it's very inefficient.
At the end, Roberts may just end up with 3 half-assed modules instead of albeit not so feature rich, but well working game and still having plenty of money for further development.
And given Robert's record, the former seems very, very probable.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
At least we know with Roberts that this is the only game he wants to make, one that mixes many aspects of different genres, which from the sounds of it, will be quite a decent playing experience. As long as people don't get caught up in the trolls like Smart.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
RSI has found themselves in a perpetual loop of "Here's more money, so I will expand the scope of my game." At some point that mentality needs to stop, and they have taken it so far that they are at the $80+ million mark with still no game to show for.
I hate to say it...but FEATURE CREEP is real.
Here's what you need to take into consideration, the KS ended in 2012, the big money rolled in 2013-2014. The average mmo takes 5 years to develop, the fact they promised 2014 delivery in the kickstarter, proves how small they thought it would be. They want to make all the money people spent worth while, by releasing a game worth the price tag. You shouldn't be mad at this, it's a win for the money spent. If you took in $80 million and still released a $20 million game, I'd ask where all the money went.
Frivolous litigation
If Derek Smart (Derek Smart, Derek Smart) isn't bluffing --which I suspect he is-- about the litigation he better hope something is found. Otherwise, he'll not only be facing penalties from frivolous litigation, but could also be subject to a defamation lawsuit (which there may already be enough public material for this).Honestly, you would say the money is going to further develop the game. I am a producer at heart, and naturally when I see what CIG did I cringe a little. Its bad communication on their part (they SHOULD be transparent about the money and where it is going. They should also be giving a realistic window for game release and keep the community updated on said release window).
Sure, they are a massively successful kickstarter campaign. That doesn't mean that they are completely correct in how they have handled that situation so far.
They have $80 million, the least they can do is invest in a decent PR / Marketing team...
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
EDIT: You are free to disagree with me, Jester, but our opinions are simply opinions.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I have no clue if Smart's lawsuit or allegations are legitimate. But to say that backers should get anything less than transparency from the developers is to completely ignore the way investments have worked in the past with game development in favor of simply giving developers free reign to spend money behind closed doors any way they see fit. That's a recipe for disaster.
What color is the sky in your world?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
You also have to consider true investors deal with companies in private scenarios during development... Not publicly. I get it people don't wanna be ripped off... that's understandable. Yet expecting a studio to have the same relationship with public crowdfundees, as a corporation would have with it's private investors is a little much IMO. For many reasons. No matter how you slice it, backers need to realize they made a high risk donation that may never pan out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Real" backers are not asking where they are spending money, real backers like my friend are asking how long before they get their package which was supposed to be delivered on november 2014. But even then it was written "estimated delivery date", estimation can be wrong and estimated date can be delayed, "real" backers like my friend understands that but con man like derek "moron" swinged it in a way that his victims(most of these people did not spend a dime in backing SC) who fell for his "transparency in business" bullshit fail to understand even simple english.
Well whatever, next thing i know these morons will start a crowdfunding project to give money to derek "moron".
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
It's interesting to me that people who claim to be "producers", or even "at heart" ones, would want to see a company take so much money and deliver so little. Honestly if you want a game with content drought go play one of Derek's games. If you want a game with some originality wait for SC. It's only been 2 and half years since the kickstarter ended. I'd like to see someone else try to design a AAA class mmo worth $90 million in under 2 years like you seem to want Roberts to do, please go do it. I'll be here watching it fail at luanch because it was rushed and bugged.
Then you ask them to spend more in a "decent PR / Marketing team"? Marketing for whom? The game isn't ready for non backers to know about yet, as it's not close enough to launch. The game has already generated $90 million in interest, who else should they do marketing for? The core of the playerbase has already backed the game, people who are less interested, or hype train riders, will find out after it launches. Of course more marketing will be done before launch, but hell the Wing Commander movie is now being featured on Netflix, you think that's by accident? I think you are confused on what this game really needs, and what you think is right.
Is it possible they realize they have a license to print money so they are dragging this along for as long as possible? If/when they hit the 100 million dollar mark will CR suddenly make a statement saying that they actually need 150 million to finish the game now, repeat ad nauseum until people stop throwing money at the project?