You know whats strange? Most peaple wanna be quick and get done fast In mmo's, but irl this job i work at, for the past several months we've been trying to get peaple that can actually do our job good, but every one of um have been really slow and put stuff in wrong places, and you name it. Seriously like last 10 peaple we got all fail there probation period.
I swear i wonder if half of those peaple could even read. Guss that's why mmo's have gone the way they have...
Mate, they expect to complete a task, earn their reward and live in the sunshine... you aren't offering them that.
Basically run out of contents . I can say that new games are more complex than the old . More well craft . But the more well crafted they are , the less possibility they have and make the longevity shorten.
The third paragraph... no spin involved, just a description of the market conditions.
The fourth paragraph; no, F2P titles make huge sums off pre-orders, just look at the PWE technique.
The fifth paragraph; you think games are less or more grindy now? Just interested?
The first three paragraphs were all the same thing. A thread worrying about how long players spend in games has the faint implication that you feel this is bad, and a problem. But those paragraphs point out that the ability for players to ditch games they dislike for a new game is overwhelmingly positive. If you made this thread with the feeling that players leaving games rapidly is completely fine and acceptable, then you can ignore this part -- otherwise, that's the "spin".
"Huge sums" drastically overstates how much money these F2P games make off of B2P style purchases (including pre-orders.) As a portion of their overall business model, these sales aren't huge and they're very much reliant on player retention.
Games are less grindy now. While "grind" is subjective and I can't say people are wrong in their opinion, early MMORPGs were objectively more repetitive (ie endless mob grind) than modern games, and that variety is why I don't consider modern games anywhere close to as grindy.
No implications, that is just you implying implications (for what end only you know). But to answer this first "point"- I feel that mmo players should have time to forge relationships with fellow players before moving on.
Second paragraph. It simply does not overstate it. Just go watch some gdcvault.com lectures... there are in fact several from the PWE marketing team that discuss the huge proportion they make off pre-orders. Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Years ago, I had far less time to play than I do now even, being in my early 40's with more family responsibilities, but I played games longer than I do today, so that's not really the factor some folks make it out to be.
Yeah, I don't think that how much time people have explains anything, some have less but I myself only works weekends right now so I have 5 days off every week and still I play less.
Part of it might be that MMOs have had a harder time to recruit younger players the last few years, I can't really prove that but I have a feeling that both EQ and vanilla Wow had far more younger players than the new games get today.
I basically think the games have messed things up, the games are still basically the same with the same level ranges in the open world, more or less the same quests, the same progression mchanics and the same combat, the only difference is a few raids at the top and an insane leveling speed.
If you look on how the games are built they are still made like Everquest was but you don't play them that way anymore. The games have not evolved for fast leveling at all.
It really doesn't work long term, if you want to level fast you need to make your game very different with a huge focus on endgame content and alternative endgame play to raiding.
Todays games are made for the seriuously mentally/emtionally challenged Xbox/Soccer generation where everyone wins eveytime they play ... Just get on the ride look at the pretty colors and .. ohh and heres a PRIZE.....your very own EPIC RARE Tabugla Sword (and yes everyone has one of these (Epic/Rare swords).. lol
They also not developed to capture your imagination , they are made geared to capturing your wallet .. Creativity is dead to most devs ..
Pretty much this.
Yep this is unfortuently true, although the newer generation majority of them havant tried anything like the older gen games and how they use to be so its also possibly that they can work aswell people just never tried anything pre WoW again. TBH internet wasnt that big pre WoW so not as many people played those games aswell so who realy knows they new gen players have only ever know the give me this or that for no work as quoted post says and who knows they may be finaly ready for somthing different too but who knows no dev realy wants to take a risk on a maybe these days either which isnt helping the genre either cause u go to a new game and after a week ur like i was already playing a game exactly like this why am i releveling a char when i already have a perfectly good one still in my previous game.
Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Asking for a bit much there, aren't ya? It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Asking for a bit much there, aren't ya? It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
I did not quote anything. I only asked that if someone were to try to state an argument in this regard, they did so from a position of education. Look, anyone can say "that is crap because my gut tells me so"... all it proves is that they are an idiot.
Edit: I did get the sarcasm, just appeals to pathos and strawmen get so tiresome.
Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Asking for a bit much there, aren't ya? It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
I did not quote anything. I only asked that if someone were to try to state an argument in this regard, they did so from a position of education. Look, anyone can say "that is crap because my gut tells me so"... all it proves is that they are an idiot.
Edit: I did get the sarcasm, just appeals to pathos and strawmen get so tiresome.
And because your gut tells you that because you haven't found a long term game then its obviously true that no games are long term.
I have been playing FE near 5 years now.
My gut says you are a ( nice guy with a mistaken presumption)
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I think Robin said it best... (Just replace coffee with MMO)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Asking for a bit much there, aren't ya? It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
I did not quote anything. I only asked that if someone were to try to state an argument in this regard, they did so from a position of education. Look, anyone can say "that is crap because my gut tells me so"... all it proves is that they are an idiot.
Edit: I did get the sarcasm, just appeals to pathos and strawmen get so tiresome.
And because your gut tells you that because you haven't found a long term game then its obviously true that no games are long term.
I have been playing FE near 5 years now.
My gut says you are a ( nice guy with a mistaken presumption)
haha, nice try, my gut says "exception that proves the rule".
Look, there will be people who have spent every waking breath in DCUO, but they are the outliers. I kinda assume you already know this though.
Well yeah, I wholly agree with ya. My comment was pretty much squarely within the realm of sarcasm, more so for the fact you picked the wrong individual to request such an endeavor from.
Problem is that having a "position of education" very often also hits a grey area where you have people moderately informed or thinking they know everything they need to, at the very least bearing the false assumption of having authority on the matter, and as consequence falling into the dunning-kruger effect. The people most subject to it are in general those that assume their opinions and arguments are predicated on logic, but ultimately forget the weight of their own bias and that the information they do know is potentially only a small bit of the full deal.
Not directed at you specifically. More so, looking at the sigs on here is an easy way to see where someone might be putting too much value on their own logic without considering where some faults might be in it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Well yeah, I wholly agree with ya. My comment was pretty much squarely within the realm of sarcasm, more so for the fact you picked the wrong individual to request such an endeavor from.
Problem is that having a "position of education" very often also hits a grey area where you have people moderately informed or thinking they know everything they need to, at the very least bearing the false assumption of having authority on the matter, and as consequence falling into the dunning-kruger effect. The people most subject to it are in general those that assume their opinions and arguments are predicated on logic, but ultimately forget the weight of their own bias and that the information they do know is potentially only a small bit of the full deal.
Not directed at you specifically. More so, looking at the sigs on here is an easy way to see where someone might be putting too much value on their own logic without considering where some faults might be in it.
Indeed, I am aware of it, and aware that awareness does not help. All I can say is that I try...
Probably the main issue is that most people who play AAA MMOs don't want to spend much time in a game or devote time to it. That was not the case when MMOs first started out. Games have mostly be relegated to a side attraction. People were a lot more passionate about them when I was growing up (I'm not saying it's wrong, but I had a lot of fun with them and being passionate about them). I also find it is harder to be passionate about games these days because the community has less passion, there are too many games, and there is too much of a structure (school) to how games should be made.
While I play a lot less per day than I did many years ago, this does not explain why I leave a game much earlier. Yes, I have real world responsibilities I did not have then, but also yes, the games I am offered are far less likely to hold my attention regardless.
EDIT: I can hear the "but you are different person" rebuttle coming. Maybe that is part of it, a small part of it...
It does in a way.
The AAA games are now designed in a cookie cutter way that isn't intended to hold your attention. They are also marketed towards a different group of people with different interests. I find a lot of the things that interested me in games from a good vs evil and cultural standpoint have been removed as not to offend. Probably things like you would find in the Witcher series of games. They also required a certain amount of patience. That is something the majority aren't willing to devote to a game. I also find dark humor has been removed from a lot of games these days.
Instant gratification requirements lead to shallow, fast food content that has no impact or longevity.
The Adderall and Ritalin Generation demands to be winners because they have been told they are winners all their life through school by getting Trophies for just showing up. They have no concept of rewarding experiences that required effort because they never had to show effort at all. The "no child left behind" generation is not able to deal with losing.
FFXIV is a good example of an MMO that is tailored to this generation. The content is trivial and easy to master by simple repetition. For those still failing in the repetition they added buffs for failure. If you fail you get rewarded with a buff that makes it easier next try. If you are still too stupid to win you get a bigger buff. It's the equivalent of what is happening in education. "Oh he can't calculate 2+2 but at least he showed up and tried, even though 22 is wrong it was a great effort."
This will not change in the near future because we have an even bigger wave of drugged up and entitled kids growing up with 1 in 10 kids on some form of amphetamine pills for various ADD type "diseases" and they get trophies for everything now.
I feel instant gratification is a major problem plagueing the genre tbh might just be thought on it but thats what i feel is the biggest problem for MMORPG its just give give give and no take whats so ever
Here some of the things i acualy miss from Older games and a reason i cant play 95% of the newer games. - 0 thought required, generaly speaking the game is so dumbed down that there is 0 reason to think guess there trying to reduce barrier of entry but still whats the point of playing is the game is as easy as throwing a rock 1 foot infront of you. In raids the game literaly tell you how to win every step of the boss fight with messages in middle of screen (Message x means to jump, message y means to run the spot, message z means to pull ur hair out in frustration of being told what to do)
-Rewards for doing nothing at all, Innkeeper:Congratulation Dular u picked this flower next to me have this awsome lvl 50 sword of dragon slaying! would u like this silver platters that im handing u this sword on aswell??? (Enough said on this one)
- No mystery in the world, everything is highlighted infront of u this guy has a quest, there chest there and so on there nothing hidden for people to discover for themself, older games i will use EQ for example here had no ! mark for quest givers so people had to go out talking to npc to see if they could do anything for them, they also had 2 type in chat question key points to trigger hints of what the npc wanted (didnt get a quest in a log u had to right it down on a piece of paper and figure out what he wanted urself, i honosly like this method tbh although i would like to be able to right notes in game on a journal my character has on him or in a book purchased from npc's that i could trade to people with info and things) This system tbh i realy want to see happen allows people to play info brokers too being able to trade things ingame. There were some realy epic quests in that game that involved u going to great lengths to finish but the reword for it often reflected the effort it took to get which was great and made it feel like items u were rewarded were truely worth it nowadays u toss them away when the next kill x thing quest comes along....
- No Adventure anymore the world feels small with instant/fast travel and u get a map from the moment u log in, i personaly would rather make my own maps either in game or in my head and discover things myself that have it all shown out there right away. TBH i would much rather see no maps xcept maybe the starter zone and have a Cartography skill where players can make there own maps ingame and trade/sell them to others thats dont automaticaly update themselfs if the area changes for some major reason.
- No inconveniences is quite a inconvenient i find, it makes the world feel dull tbh and not as immersive, its a rpg so it should simulate life to a degree which is plagues with some inconveniences, they dont need to go overboard but simple ones help make the world feel like it is alive.
Your whole argument is somehow based on the fact that supposedly "back in the day" games had more longevity.
And everyone pretty much knows the reason for that don't they. Fewer choices. Longer slower gameplay designed to keep you paying them money, which is what you seem to prefer, but many don't. Plus when you have fewer choices and you are spending years just to get 2 levels, people tend to hang around because they have already wasted so much time, they just can't give it up. So community remains relatively constant.
Plus it was a new thing. We wanted to stay. Now, we have the "been there done that" group such as yourself. You want something new, that is like something old. I don't know what that is, and neither do any Devs making games, it seems according to you. And from what I see, they have tried. It just isn't working for you.
I guess until you guys figure that out, what exactly you want, you're pretty much stuck.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No implications, that is just you implying implications (for what end only you know). But to answer this first "point"- I feel that mmo players should have time to forge relationships with fellow players before moving on.
Second paragraph. It simply does not overstate it. Just go watch some gdcvault.com lectures... there are in fact several from the PWE marketing team that discuss the huge proportion they make off pre-orders. Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Last point: we are agreed.
You imply I have some secret agenda here and in the very next sentence imply it's not ideal for players to spend so little time that they can't forge relationships with fellow players. So no, I don't have an agenda, I'm simply pointing out that you clearly don't think it's ideal for players to leave games quickly.
For the second bit, post a link. Until you actually post evidence (and not a vague request to watch GDC videos, which I've done both via videos and in person) you haven't really established your position.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Asking for a bit much there, aren't ya? It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
It's the responsibility of someone making a claim to post evidence backing it. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not on the person doubting the claim.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It has everything to do with the evolution of the industry to cater to the instant gratification generation, who became the overwhelming majority sometime in the early 2000s after the initial first generation of MMORPGs, which catered to those of us who prefer the old school games.
The modern day MMORPG is built so that players can solo to max in 30 - 60 days. During that time, they are given instant-group finders, which allow them to group up cross-servers with players who aren't even part of their own community. Everything is streamlined to give them rewards quickly, at every turn, so that they feel "rewarded" for their time played.
Cue forward to the 60 days. They have maxed out a toon, haven't ever grouped with anyone for more than 15-30 minutes to do "hard mode" dungeon runs, and as such, haven't made friendships. Being at max level, they have already seen all there is to see. They find themselves at max level with no friends, and nothing to due.
Cue the "time to move to another game and rinse/repeat".
In the old days, it took months, if not years, to reach max level. You were REQUIRED to group with other players, so you became invested in guilds and friendships. Many players found themselves not necessarily logging in to do a dungeon, but instead hang out with the guild, to do buff stations for newbies, help out with corpse runs, chat about plans for the next day, roleplay, and maybe work on killing a few mobs.
This natural investment of time + effort + community into the game led you to feel as though you were a part of a world. Yes, it took more time to make forward progress, but when you made that progress, it MEANT something because it was harder to achieve.
That's why you're seeing a resurgance of old-school MMORPGs in development right now: the first wave generation of gamers are tired of the BS 30-60 day games and want to see a return to the virtual worlds of old, where community mattered, where you needed groups to accomplish content, and where you became invested in the world for years, not just a few weeks.
Your whole argument is somehow based on the fact that supposedly "back in the day" games had more longevity.
And everyone pretty much knows the reason for that don't they. Fewer choices. Longer slower gameplay designed to keep you paying them money, which is what you seem to prefer, but many don't. Plus when you have fewer choices and you are spending years just to get 2 levels, people tend to hang around because they have already wasted so much time, they just can't give it up. So community remains relatively constant.
Plus it was a new thing. We wanted to stay. Now, we have the "been there done that" group such as yourself. You want something new, that is like something old. I don't know what that is, and neither do any Devs making games, it seems according to you. And from what I see, they have tried. It just isn't working for you.
I guess until you guys figure that out, what exactly you want, you're pretty much stuck.
I think that new thing is a huge part of the problem, MMOs aren't new anymore, whenever a new games comes out it is just more of the same. But MMOs should feel new instead of something we played for 20 years.
I think it is time to stop remaking older games, no matter if those games are from '96, '99, '04 or last year. A few games that actually are different to play with new goals and mechanics, and maybe people would actually stay longer.
There are a LOT of experts here with no doubt that it's the rapid leveling leaving the player with nothing to do at max level resulting in boredom...
but, most of the time the majority of people that leave an MMO early in their development, never achieve maximum level. They get bored along the way, so level speed and community never even enter in to the question of longevity.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
You know whats strange? Most peaple wanna be quick and get done fast In mmo's, but irl this job i work at, for the past several months we've been trying to get peaple that can actually do our job good, but every one of um have been really slow and put stuff in wrong places, and you name it. Seriously like last 10 peaple we got all fail there probation period.
I swear i wonder if half of those peaple could even read. Guss that's why mmo's have gone the way they have...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are a LOT of experts here with no doubt that it's the rapid leveling leaving the player with nothing to do at max level resulting in boredom...
but, most of the time the majority of people that leave an MMO early in their development, never achieve maximum level. They get bored along the way, so level speed and community never even enter in to the question of longevity.
That isn't taking into consideration that there are different majorities in gaming. I believe the majority then was a lot different and smaller then the majority now. The majority now are not gamers so much as people who dabble in games, but it's more like a side attraction. Those are the people games are made for now.
1) The largest MMO demographic is the casual soloer.
That means MMOs can make the most money if they cater to a casual soloer, so a lot of developers design their games with this largest and most profitable target market in mind. If you are here, posting on this site, it probably means that you are either now, or have been in the past, a "core" gamer, which likely means modern MMOs aren't made for you.
2) Personal Experience
I've only played 4 MMOs for any length of time over the 11 years I've been playing mmos. However, I've been gaming in general for 25 years and at various points in my life I've been a "hardcore" gamer.
This long term experience of playing games in general, and MMOs specifically, means I've seen the good and the bad and it also allows me to pick up games really quickly. The result is that I am much less willing to put up with "bad" game design, but I also find most games pretty trivial to play, resulting in boredom very quickly. So, I tend to find no challenge and minimal enjoyment during the leveling process because its too easy and quests are too generic and then when I get to endgame I generally have to repeat the same content over and over which means any design flaws become big barriers to enjoyment.
3) Social Design
Once a player has completed the content, it is generally other players that keep you in game. It might be that you enjoy questing with your wife / husband, you might be in a good guild, you might have made random friends throughout your playtime. Whatever it is, these social interactions help keep you playing even when the game itself has gotten boring.
However, the shift towards pleasing the casual soloer means the normal methods of making friends (needing to group up to complete content) barely exist any more but developers have done nothing to replace it. The lack of social hooks means less incentive to keep playing.
I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons and other posters have covered a lot of them, but the heart of the matter is that MMOs simply aren't designed with "us" in mind, so we personally don't feel the longevity is there. I expect if I was a casual soloer new to MMOs, I could easily pick up something like FF14 or SW:TOR and I'd love it and play it for years.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Longevity... That's this word that hypes grinding dungeons over and over again as desireable. Sometimes related to a form of elitism where certain gear is needed so you can feel more special than the other players.
Those players can be often found on forums nowadays, randomly offending the newer generations and lecturing them about not knowing anything about the "True MMO"
Comments
I can say that new games are more complex than the old . More well craft .
But the more well crafted they are , the less possibility they have and make the longevity shorten.
Second paragraph. It simply does not overstate it. Just go watch some gdcvault.com lectures... there are in fact several from the PWE marketing team that discuss the huge proportion they make off pre-orders. Please do not come back on this until you have done your research, because I have done mine.
Last point: we are agreed.
Part of it might be that MMOs have had a harder time to recruit younger players the last few years, I can't really prove that but I have a feeling that both EQ and vanilla Wow had far more younger players than the new games get today.
I basically think the games have messed things up, the games are still basically the same with the same level ranges in the open world, more or less the same quests, the same progression mchanics and the same combat, the only difference is a few raids at the top and an insane leveling speed.
If you look on how the games are built they are still made like Everquest was but you don't play them that way anymore. The games have not evolved for fast leveling at all.
It really doesn't work long term, if you want to level fast you need to make your game very different with a huge focus on endgame content and alternative endgame play to raiding.
Because most of us are not living in 1999 anymore.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
TBH internet wasnt that big pre WoW so not as many people played those games aswell so who realy knows they new gen players have only ever know the give me this or that for no work as quoted post says and who knows they may be finaly ready for somthing different too but who knows no dev realy wants to take a risk on a maybe these days either which isnt helping the genre either cause u go to a new game and after a week ur like i was already playing a game exactly like this why am i releveling a char when i already have a perfectly good one still in my previous game.
It's so much easier when people only quote snippets of articles that reaffirm their opinion rather than acknowledge that there is more information out there or a bigger picture that it fits into.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Edit: I did get the sarcasm, just appeals to pathos and strawmen get so tiresome.
I have been playing FE near 5 years now.
My gut says you are a ( nice guy with a mistaken presumption)
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Look, there will be people who have spent every waking breath in DCUO, but they are the outliers. I kinda assume you already know this though.
Problem is that having a "position of education" very often also hits a grey area where you have people moderately informed or thinking they know everything they need to, at the very least bearing the false assumption of having authority on the matter, and as consequence falling into the dunning-kruger effect. The people most subject to it are in general those that assume their opinions and arguments are predicated on logic, but ultimately forget the weight of their own bias and that the information they do know is potentially only a small bit of the full deal.
Not directed at you specifically. More so, looking at the sigs on here is an easy way to see where someone might be putting too much value on their own logic without considering where some faults might be in it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The AAA games are now designed in a cookie cutter way that isn't intended to hold your attention. They are also marketed towards a different group of people with different interests. I find a lot of the things that interested me in games from a good vs evil and cultural standpoint have been removed as not to offend. Probably things like you would find in the Witcher series of games. They also required a certain amount of patience. That is something the majority aren't willing to devote to a game. I also find dark humor has been removed from a lot of games these days.
I feel instant gratification is a major problem plagueing the genre tbh might just be thought on it but thats what i feel is the biggest problem for MMORPG its just give give give and no take whats so ever
Here some of the things i acualy miss from Older games and a reason i cant play 95% of the newer games.
- 0 thought required, generaly speaking the game is so dumbed down that there is 0 reason to think guess there trying to reduce barrier of entry but still whats the point of playing is the game is as easy as throwing a rock 1 foot infront of you. In raids the game literaly tell you how to win every step of the boss fight with messages in middle of screen (Message x means to jump, message y means to run the spot, message z means to pull ur hair out in frustration of being told what to do)
-Rewards for doing nothing at all, Innkeeper:Congratulation Dular u picked this flower next to me have this awsome lvl 50 sword of dragon slaying! would u like this silver platters that im handing u this sword on aswell??? (Enough said on this one)
- No mystery in the world, everything is highlighted infront of u this guy has a quest, there chest there and so on there nothing hidden for people to discover for themself, older games i will use EQ for example here had no ! mark for quest givers so people had to go out talking to npc to see if they could do anything for them, they also had 2 type in chat question key points to trigger hints of what the npc wanted (didnt get a quest in a log u had to right it down on a piece of paper and figure out what he wanted urself, i honosly like this method tbh although i would like to be able to right notes in game on a journal my character has on him or in a book purchased from npc's that i could trade to people with info and things) This system tbh i realy want to see happen allows people to play info brokers too being able to trade things ingame. There were some realy epic quests in that game that involved u going to great lengths to finish but the reword for it often reflected the effort it took to get which was great and made it feel like items u were rewarded were truely worth it
- No Adventure anymore
- No inconveniences is quite a inconvenient i find, it makes the world feel dull tbh and not as immersive, its a rpg so it should simulate life to a degree which is plagues with some inconveniences, they dont need to go overboard but simple ones help make the world feel like it is alive.
And everyone pretty much knows the reason for that don't they. Fewer choices. Longer slower gameplay designed to keep you paying them money, which is what you seem to prefer, but many don't. Plus when you have fewer choices and you are spending years just to get 2 levels, people tend to hang around because they have already wasted so much time, they just can't give it up. So community remains relatively constant.
Plus it was a new thing. We wanted to stay. Now, we have the "been there done that" group such as yourself. You want something new, that is like something old. I don't know what that is, and neither do any Devs making games, it seems according to you. And from what I see, they have tried. It just isn't working for you.
I guess until you guys figure that out, what exactly you want, you're pretty much stuck.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
For the second bit, post a link. Until you actually post evidence (and not a vague request to watch GDC videos, which I've done both via videos and in person) you haven't really established your position.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's the responsibility of someone making a claim to post evidence backing it. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not on the person doubting the claim.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The modern day MMORPG is built so that players can solo to max in 30 - 60 days. During that time, they are given instant-group finders, which allow them to group up cross-servers with players who aren't even part of their own community. Everything is streamlined to give them rewards quickly, at every turn, so that they feel "rewarded" for their time played.
Cue forward to the 60 days. They have maxed out a toon, haven't ever grouped with anyone for more than 15-30 minutes to do "hard mode" dungeon runs, and as such, haven't made friendships. Being at max level, they have already seen all there is to see. They find themselves at max level with no friends, and nothing to due.
Cue the "time to move to another game and rinse/repeat".
In the old days, it took months, if not years, to reach max level. You were REQUIRED to group with other players, so you became invested in guilds and friendships. Many players found themselves not necessarily logging in to do a dungeon, but instead hang out with the guild, to do buff stations for newbies, help out with corpse runs, chat about plans for the next day, roleplay, and maybe work on killing a few mobs.
This natural investment of time + effort + community into the game led you to feel as though you were a part of a world. Yes, it took more time to make forward progress, but when you made that progress, it MEANT something because it was harder to achieve.
That's why you're seeing a resurgance of old-school MMORPGs in development right now: the first wave generation of gamers are tired of the BS 30-60 day games and want to see a return to the virtual worlds of old, where community mattered, where you needed groups to accomplish content, and where you became invested in the world for years, not just a few weeks.
I think it is time to stop remaking older games, no matter if those games are from '96, '99, '04 or last year. A few games that actually are different to play with new goals and mechanics, and maybe people would actually stay longer.
but, most of the time the majority of people that leave an MMO early in their development, never achieve maximum level. They get bored along the way, so level speed and community never even enter in to the question of longevity.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That means MMOs can make the most money if they cater to a casual soloer, so a lot of developers design their games with this largest and most profitable target market in mind. If you are here, posting on this site, it probably means that you are either now, or have been in the past, a "core" gamer, which likely means modern MMOs aren't made for you.
2) Personal Experience
I've only played 4 MMOs for any length of time over the 11 years I've been playing mmos. However, I've been gaming in general for 25 years and at various points in my life I've been a "hardcore" gamer.
This long term experience of playing games in general, and MMOs specifically, means I've seen the good and the bad and it also allows me to pick up games really quickly. The result is that I am much less willing to put up with "bad" game design, but I also find most games pretty trivial to play, resulting in boredom very quickly. So, I tend to find no challenge and minimal enjoyment during the leveling process because its too easy and quests are too generic and then when I get to endgame I generally have to repeat the same content over and over which means any design flaws become big barriers to enjoyment.
3) Social Design
Once a player has completed the content, it is generally other players that keep you in game. It might be that you enjoy questing with your wife / husband, you might be in a good guild, you might have made random friends throughout your playtime. Whatever it is, these social interactions help keep you playing even when the game itself has gotten boring.
However, the shift towards pleasing the casual soloer means the normal methods of making friends (needing to group up to complete content) barely exist any more but developers have done nothing to replace it. The lack of social hooks means less incentive to keep playing.
I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons and other posters have covered a lot of them, but the heart of the matter is that MMOs simply aren't designed with "us" in mind, so we personally don't feel the longevity is there. I expect if I was a casual soloer new to MMOs, I could easily pick up something like FF14 or SW:TOR and I'd love it and play it for years.
That's this word that hypes grinding dungeons over and over again as desireable.
Sometimes related to a form of elitism where certain gear is needed so you can feel more special than the other players.
Those players can be often found on forums nowadays, randomly offending the newer generations and lecturing them about not knowing anything about the "True MMO"