"We own you" insight from a F2P producer

Rusque

From Touch Arcade

Summary: Unsurprisingly, F2P is not about the quality of the game, but rather getting you to buy stuff. But the degree to which they research their players is pretty impressive - even going so far as to create a fake facebook profile to get to know one of their whales better so that they can cater to them more.

The article is discussing mobile games, though successful business practices are often adopted by others, because money. And a lot of this is already being done by F2P MMO devs too no doubt, and supporting this financial model only takes us further down the rabbit hole. It sucks as a gamer, but it sounds like it also sucks for those who work on games - people who want to create something, but are tied to marketing trends and have to either compromise or give up their vision.

Thankfully we've seen a very strong resurgence in single player titles these last few years, and this isn't to say that all F2P is inherently bad, there are various models, but it's impact on game design has been significant imo.

Superman0X

This reminds me of retail. It is about time that gaming finally realized that sales people should actually focus on sales... and not be developers.

JakeSim

Video games all became about the cash grab. Being f2p in itself, cash shops, dlc, remaking games with a slightly different skin, etc. it's sad really. And it keeps happening because people keep feeding into it.

Some examples:

 Almost every f2p game app for mobile devices with currency that can be purchased, skins, potions, boosts, chests that have chances to drop items, etc.

even non-f2p games have things like this.

call of duty: there's a new one every year thats just reskinned with an additional feature or two. It's like a new iPhone.

Even counter strike GO. They utilize finding chests....except you need a key which will cost you some money.

Panserbjorne39

Free to play games and microtransactions are bad for gamers and bad for devs. I avoid both like the plague. Single player games and sub MMOs are what I support. I will never pay for DLC or for a microtransaction. Ever. 

CrazKanuk

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. As soon as SOE was acquired I had mentioned that this was a huge reason. Shoot, take a look at CN's portfolio? Oh? Full of companies which rely on data or data collection? Huh, weird. 

The main reason I don't think that this came from a real developer is simply that they seemed disillusioned. Paraphrasing, "Hey, buy a $4.99 or $9.99 game because we don't like doing this!" That's bullshit!! There isn't a producer in the world who isn't collecting data, whether it be a $4.99 game or a $50 game. I'm not endorsing the practice, but I can tell you that putting a stop of F2P games won't make this practice stop. Take a look at cash shops. WoWs cash shop makes more money than any F2P game, and it sells almost nothing of value. 

Why would anyone every introduce a game without some alternative means of generating income? It would be silly. 

Hariken

This is why i'm getting away from online gaming. Sure i will try some out but long term play is never going to happen. A good EMU or Single player games are what the future of gaming are for me.

Thane

and that attitude is exactly why most f2p games fail.
and that is an insight view from a gamer.

Superman0X

You are correct that this type of data collection and targeting is now 'normal'. This has been something that larger companies/retail have been working on for decades. The pace of data collection growth was accelerated for mobile, because they were a new market and had to catch up with older, more established markets. Anything you buy today (from a large company) is using this type of approach. The only exception is the small (mom and pop) stores, and small indy developers. 

laserit

I love games, always have, always will.

Many of these new business models really do suck shit. Suck shit for the consumer. As far as I'm concerned "F2P" is a negative to gaming. Everything is designed around monetization, it's not good for a "game". Too many sleaze ball companies and business models coming to fruition. 

I've tried a couple F2P games in the past and I came to the conclusion that I won't support this type of a business model. I won't support it period.

What I want is what I've always wanted and what I expect no matter the kind or type of product.

I want an honest product for an honest price.

One thing I feel I can say with confidence, is that, "I don't believe that F2P is going to give us better games". 

Theodwulf

 It seems business is focussed on short term scam model rather than a long term one. It's sad to think that no one is interested in the "good product at a fair price" model. Its why I do NOT pre-order anymore , I do NOT subscribe until I have played it and I do NOT buy anything in-game. For the industry to get better, we as consumers MUST be smart consumers. If we , collectively, keep falling for their scams, they will keep scamming. Only we can make bad practices unprofitable. 

Grunty

This started a couple of decades ago with all those free 'discount' and 'loyalty' cards filling your purses and wallets from pharmacies and grocery stores.  They are nothing more than identification cards that tie every single purchase you make with your identification. 

zaberfangx

CrazKanuk said:

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. As soon as SOE was acquired I had mentioned that this was a huge reason. Shoot, take a look at CN's portfolio? Oh? Full of companies which rely on data or data collection? Huh, weird. 

The main reason I don't think that this came from a real developer is simply that they seemed disillusioned. Paraphrasing, "Hey, buy a $4.99 or $9.99 game because we don't like doing this!" That's bullshit!! There isn't a producer in the world who isn't collecting data, whether it be a $4.99 game or a $50 game. I'm not endorsing the practice, but I can tell you that putting a stop of F2P games won't make this practice stop. Take a look at cash shops. WoWs cash shop makes more money than any F2P game, and it sells almost nothing of value. 

Why would anyone every introduce a game without some alternative means of generating income? It would be silly. 

If wow drop there sub and try to make money just there cash shop alone then there be in trouble in the long term to keep funding the cost to keep wow running and updated the size and scale they are now. That means they have to put stuff in the cash shop thats worth more value then befor to get people to spend, or cut down there team size.

But yeah wow does make more money there cash shop alone after people payed in $15 a month but still need to pay more for more items.

It's just MMO with cash shop with a sub fee to get in are greedy as same level of a f2p mmo with a cash shop trying to get you to buy more worthless stuff.

Superman0X

Theodwulf said:

 It seems business is focussed on short term scam model rather than a long term one. It's sad to think that no one is interested in the "good product at a fair price" model. Its why I do NOT pre-order anymore , I do NOT subscribe until I have played it and I do NOT buy anything in-game. For the industry to get better, we as consumers MUST be smart consumers. If we , collectively, keep falling for their scams, they will keep scamming. Only we can make bad practices unprofitable. 

Here is a recent article:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-09-17-weve-lost-our-internal-compass-for-what-good-even-means-any-more

People are starting to notice that the old 'scams' no longer work, and that the consumer is now smart enough to avoid them.

I do think it is ironic that it is coming from a company that used these 'scams' to take peoples money, but is only now looking to change. Not because they felt what they were doing was wrong, but because it no longer makes them money. They are now looking for the minimum amount of change that they have to make in order to take money, and are not actually questioning whether this is the right approach.

The good news is that as the market matures, these approaches will be less and less viable. This will leave more room for honest attempts at entertainment, and help to highlight those that take a more customer friendly approach. I would expect that in 2-3 years that mobile games will actually be valued on entertainment value, rather than marketing, or other such tricks.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Superman0X said:

Theodwulf said:

 It seems business is focussed on short term scam model rather than a long term one. It's sad to think that no one is interested in the "good product at a fair price" model. Its why I do NOT pre-order anymore , I do NOT subscribe until I have played it and I do NOT buy anything in-game. For the industry to get better, we as consumers MUST be smart consumers. If we , collectively, keep falling for their scams, they will keep scamming. Only we can make bad practices unprofitable. 

Here is a recent article:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-09-17-weve-lost-our-internal-compass-for-what-good-even-means-any-more

People are starting to notice that the old 'scams' no longer work, and that the consumer is now smart enough to avoid them.

I do think it is ironic that it is coming from a company that used these 'scams' to take peoples money, but is only now looking to change. Not because they felt what they were doing was wrong, but because it no longer makes them money. They are now looking for the minimum amount of change that they have to make in order to take money, and are not actually questioning whether this is the right approach.

The good news is that as the market matures, these approaches will be less and less viable. This will leave more room for honest attempts at entertainment, and help to highlight those that take a more customer friendly approach. I would expect that in 2-3 years that mobile games will actually be valued on entertainment value, rather than marketing, or other such tricks.

I wouldn't count on it.  Its a minority based system.  What it means though is that while gaming companies reap money from people who have money to splurge... the normal gamers lose out with a lesser quality more restricted game play to feed the whales.  The game just needs to be good enough to get people who will play it for free and qualities to get whales to spend.

"Wow, not bad for a free game."  Meaning, I probably wouldn't pay for this game but I'll play it free. Its free so I shouldn't expect much. 

psiic

I've been saying for years there is a lot of real science and research that goes into it and everyone laughed at me as a nutjob.  Every color, every light strobe, every sound is designed to fuck with our brain chemistry and create addictive response. Game devs are just designer drug engineers. 

danwest58

laserit said:

I love games, always have, always will.

Many of these new business models really do suck shit. Suck shit for the consumer. As far as I'm concerned "F2P" is a negative to gaming. Everything is designed around monetization, it's not good for a "game". Too many sleaze ball companies and business models coming to fruition. 

I've tried a couple F2P games in the past and I came to the conclusion that I won't support this type of a business model. I won't support it period.

What I want is what I've always wanted and what I expect no matter the kind or type of product.

I want an honest product for an honest price.

One thing I feel I can say with confidence, is that, "I don't believe that F2P is going to give us better games". 

I completely agree with this.  F2P will not give us better games, having more of the same old garbage does not make the MMORRPG genera Better.  Yes fewer games with in-depth game play, fewer choices but each game was different they were not WOW clones, and Subscription base to support the game was much better than what we have now.  Right now players hop from game to game never making any commitment, it makes it harder to find players to play with, its also harder to get friends to join a game with us because we been doing nothing but game hopping every few months.  Now I did Hop from UO started in 1998 to a brand new MMO in 2003 called SWG,  Stayed in SWG until Summer of 2004 when I got into FFXI then when WOW came out in Nov of 2004 I got a copy in Dec of 2004.  I ended up not jumping or quitting for 4 years.  I always found games better when I played for a long period of time.  Yes I tried other games, EQ, EQ2, AC but never got into them like UO, SWG, and WOW.  

I am always willing to pay a Subscription for a good MMORPG.  I will not pay a Subscription or play for free a crappy game and many F2P games fall into that category.  

Loktofeit

CrazKanuk said:

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. 

Shhhh... don't ruin it. This thread is just getting started.  

CrazKanuk

zaberfangx said:

CrazKanuk said:

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. As soon as SOE was acquired I had mentioned that this was a huge reason. Shoot, take a look at CN's portfolio? Oh? Full of companies which rely on data or data collection? Huh, weird. 

The main reason I don't think that this came from a real developer is simply that they seemed disillusioned. Paraphrasing, "Hey, buy a $4.99 or $9.99 game because we don't like doing this!" That's bullshit!! There isn't a producer in the world who isn't collecting data, whether it be a $4.99 game or a $50 game. I'm not endorsing the practice, but I can tell you that putting a stop of F2P games won't make this practice stop. Take a look at cash shops. WoWs cash shop makes more money than any F2P game, and it sells almost nothing of value. 

Why would anyone every introduce a game without some alternative means of generating income? It would be silly. 

If wow drop there sub and try to make money just there cash shop alone then there be in trouble in the long term to keep funding the cost to keep wow running and updated the size and scale they are now. That means they have to put stuff in the cash shop thats worth more value then befor to get people to spend, or cut down there team size.

But yeah wow does make more money there cash shop alone after people payed in $15 a month but still need to pay more for more items.

It's just MMO with cash shop with a sub fee to get in are greedy as same level of a f2p mmo with a cash shop trying to get you to buy more worthless stuff.

Yeah, I was simply saying that there's no going back now. Cash shops are too lucrative, F2P generates waaaaaay too much data, and you cannot hope to sell a game to someone who expects to get something for free. I scoffed at the $14.99 for EACH of the Final Fantasy iOS titles (even though I bought #1). 

CrazKanuk

psiic said:

I've been saying for years there is a lot of real science and research that goes into it and everyone laughed at me as a nutjob.  Every color, every light strobe, every sound is designed to fuck with our brain chemistry and create addictive response. Game devs are just designer drug engineers. 

The formula today is, really, the same as it's always been. Think about subscription MMOs. Daily quests, super-long grinds, gear becoming out-dated as content expands. It's just the hamster wheel. You toss in some limited progression and treats or a ding or a shiny digital shirt and people are just salivating. 

I think back to Super Mario Bros. or the original Metal Gear. What's the reason to care after you beat it? (That's a lie since nobody ever beat the original Metal Gear). It was just a bunch of levels mashed together to make a game. Now it's all about retention. Actually, All-Star Baseball back on the original Nintendo was pretty damn compelling too. There weren't many games that kept you coming back for an eternity like we have today though. 

rojoArcueid

Poor whales. You know, the ones who always say "i do what i want with my money", always supporting the wrong side of the spectrum. Now suffer.. In your face, they own you, your money, and your data.

Superman0X

danwest58 said:

laserit said:

I love games, always have, always will.

Many of these new business models really do suck shit. Suck shit for the consumer. As far as I'm concerned "F2P" is a negative to gaming. Everything is designed around monetization, it's not good for a "game". Too many sleaze ball companies and business models coming to fruition. 

I've tried a couple F2P games in the past and I came to the conclusion that I won't support this type of a business model. I won't support it period.

What I want is what I've always wanted and what I expect no matter the kind or type of product.

I want an honest product for an honest price.

One thing I feel I can say with confidence, is that, "I don't believe that F2P is going to give us better games". 

I completely agree with this.  F2P will not give us better games, having more of the same old garbage does not make the MMORRPG genera Better.  Yes fewer games with in-depth game play, fewer choices but each game was different they were not WOW clones, and Subscription base to support the game was much better than what we have now.  Right now players hop from game to game never making any commitment, it makes it harder to find players to play with, its also harder to get friends to join a game with us because we been doing nothing but game hopping every few months.  Now I did Hop from UO started in 1998 to a brand new MMO in 2003 called SWG,  Stayed in SWG until Summer of 2004 when I got into FFXI then when WOW came out in Nov of 2004 I got a copy in Dec of 2004.  I ended up not jumping or quitting for 4 years.  I always found games better when I played for a long period of time.  Yes I tried other games, EQ, EQ2, AC but never got into them like UO, SWG, and WOW.  

I am always willing to pay a Subscription for a good MMORPG.  I will not pay a Subscription or play for free a crappy game and many F2P games fall into that category.  

I totally agree with some of what you are (both) saying. F2P/P2P/Boxed Sales/Subs/Expansions etc are never going to give us better games.  Doesn't it seem a bit silly to be looking at how games are monetized/packaged as a method to determine game quality. It is like saying, 'If only the box were blue... the game would be better, but since it is red, the game sucks.' 

Game quality is going to come from game design, not from the monetization or packaging. Once you start focusing on that, you might be able to find some better games.

eye_m

I don't get the logic on how this applies to F2P exclusively.  Because there is revenue stream B, does that mean the corporation is going to abandon revenue stream A?  If you tip a waitress will she refuse her paycheck?  Any and all corporations will make the best profit from you that they can.

Four0Six

Thane said:

and that attitude is exactly why most f2p games fail.
and that is an insight view from a gamer.

Define "fail"?

The developers/publishers make money. It is a win. Because it is F2P, the consumer doesn't get a say in weather or not a game was fail or not.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Loktofeit said:

CrazKanuk said:

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. 

Shhhh... don't ruin it. This thread is just getting started.  

Well, its nothing new. Like someone else said those "discount" cards do a lot of it as well.

Mean have you ever had advertisements appear on "unconnected" devices?  You look on something on your phone and ads for similar things appear on your computer?  

Hell, the phones we use are data mining us.  Apple, Google, Microsoft etc. all monitor what we do.  

danwest58

Lets add another log to the fire.

"And if you are a whale, we take Facebook stalking to a whole new level. You spend enough money, we will friend you. Not officially, but with a fake account. Maybe it’s a hot girl who shows too much cleavage? That’s us. We learned as much before friending you, but once you let us in, we have the keys to the kingdom. We will use everything to figure out how to sell to you. I remember we had a whale in one game that loved American Football despite living in Saudi Arabia. We built several custom virtual items in both his favorite team colors and their opponents, just to sell to this one guy. You better believe he bought them. And these are just vanity items. We will flat out adjust a game to make it behave just like it did last time the person bought IAP. Was a level too hard? Well now they are all that same difficulty"

Now do we want to continue to have our personal lives sniffed around just so some CEOs can make moire money off crappy games?  Seriously is F2P better?  This proves what lenghts these companies go through just to get you to buy shit in their game.  That VS a game that you pay a $15 a month sub that wonders what you want to do in game and presents more content in game just to keep you subbing to the game?  Do I think every game is worth $15 a month?  No but some are worth $9/$10 a month easy.  Yea you can complain well I got X amount of subs to deal with.  I can play a game for Free.  Guess what if these CEOs find out that you are playing for Free they will find a way to throw a wall up against you so you do pay.  Well yes you can go else where but wait the other CEOs are sharing that information on you and will do the same.  Again Whats better Paying a Sub and not worrying about that and the CEOs only caring about keeping you subbed to the game or making you into their Whale?  

danwest58

zaberfangx said:

CrazKanuk said:

Did you miss the majority of the article that talked about data? Data is the asset, not your money. As soon as SOE was acquired I had mentioned that this was a huge reason. Shoot, take a look at CN's portfolio? Oh? Full of companies which rely on data or data collection? Huh, weird. 

The main reason I don't think that this came from a real developer is simply that they seemed disillusioned. Paraphrasing, "Hey, buy a $4.99 or $9.99 game because we don't like doing this!" That's bullshit!! There isn't a producer in the world who isn't collecting data, whether it be a $4.99 game or a $50 game. I'm not endorsing the practice, but I can tell you that putting a stop of F2P games won't make this practice stop. Take a look at cash shops. WoWs cash shop makes more money than any F2P game, and it sells almost nothing of value. 

Why would anyone every introduce a game without some alternative means of generating income? It would be silly. 

If wow drop there sub and try to make money just there cash shop alone then there be in trouble in the long term to keep funding the cost to keep wow running and updated the size and scale they are now. That means they have to put stuff in the cash shop thats worth more value then befor to get people to spend, or cut down there team size.

But yeah wow does make more money there cash shop alone after people payed in $15 a month but still need to pay more for more items.

It's just MMO with cash shop with a sub fee to get in are greedy as same level of a f2p mmo with a cash shop trying to get you to buy more worthless stuff.

From what I heard of someone who is in the MMO Development industry is WOW considers money made from Realm Transfers, Character name changes, and all that stuff as revenue form the cash shop.  IF and I know that is a big IF.  But IF that is true then yes they make a boat load of money off the cash shop, I know I Spent $600+ in realm transfers and faction changes, I know someone who spent $1500 in all that.  So I dont call that bad Cash shop practices because people want these services and its acceptable if players want to transfer servers and such.