My issue with Pantheon is simply that I fear they go too group centric. One of the biggest flaws in eq was that you could spend considerably amount of time waiting for a group opening for your class to be needed, and if you were not a solo class and in range of something to solo, this would be dead time with nothing to do.
I generally agree with that but would point out that grouping needs to be the better way to go. Soloing should be slower and less efficient to encourage people to want to group.
My main issue with Pantheon is that I'm quite certain they aren't actually making a grouping game but rather are making a multi-group raiding game. Oh sure, it'll start out as a grouping game and that'll last for a few months depending on how slow the leveling is but then it will transition into a raiding game.
I'm so desperate for a good grouping game I really wish I could get on board with Pantheon but I can't because of that one thing. I don't want a game I can enjoy for a few months and then it turns into something else. I want a game I can enjoy for years. I simply don't enjoy multi-group raiding and so when I reach the levels where it transitions into that I'll be faced with the "raid or quit" choice. Knowing this, I have to take the "quit" choice before I ever start so I can save myself a lot of aggravation.
I only bothered to post here because the damn shame of it drives me nuts. There are more people who prefer solo type MMOs but there are a significant number of people who actually want a grouping game again. The fatal mistake Brad and company are making is in assuming that everyone who wants a grouping game also wants a multi-group raiding game. That just isn't true.
I wish I could find a couple of posts gor you from Brad. Cant remember where and Im on Android and it doesnt like links. Anyways. Brad has specifically said that the primary focus was grouping but that there would be raids. He also suggested and asked for ideas about making group content just as relevent as raid content. So that raiding isnt specifically required to take progression to that next level. Maybe someone can help me with a link?
My issue with Pantheon is simply that I fear they go too group centric. One of the biggest flaws in eq was that you could spend considerably amount of time waiting for a group opening for your class to be needed, and if you were not a solo class and in range of something to solo, this would be dead time with nothing to do.
I generally agree with that but would point out that grouping needs to be the better way to go. Soloing should be slower and less efficient to encourage people to want to group.
My main issue with Pantheon is that I'm quite certain they aren't actually making a grouping game but rather are making a multi-group raiding game. Oh sure, it'll start out as a grouping game and that'll last for a few months depending on how slow the leveling is but then it will transition into a raiding game.
I'm so desperate for a good grouping game I really wish I could get on board with Pantheon but I can't because of that one thing. I don't want a game I can enjoy for a few months and then it turns into something else. I want a game I can enjoy for years. I simply don't enjoy multi-group raiding and so when I reach the levels where it transitions into that I'll be faced with the "raid or quit" choice. Knowing this, I have to take the "quit" choice before I ever start so I can save myself a lot of aggravation.
I only bothered to post here because the damn shame of it drives me nuts. There are more people who prefer solo type MMOs but there are a significant number of people who actually want a grouping game again. The fatal mistake Brad and company are making is in assuming that everyone who wants a grouping game also wants a multi-group raiding game. That just isn't true.
Early EQ still had way more group content than raid. By a pretty wide margin. Just because SOE changed the game and made it more about raiding, doesn't mean these guys will. If you remember, that was around the time that many of the original EQ devs left for other projects, including Vanguard. Then what did we have in Vanguard? Another game that revolved around grouping with very little raiding.
I dont think its an issue of pulling it off its just an issue of making it happen. Though I get what you are saying (ie doing it and not having the raiders flip out). Just depends on what VR really wants to do vs how flexible raiders can be to ideas that equalize Dungeons and Raids in terms of rewards.
My issue with Pantheon is simply that I fear they go too group centric. One of the biggest flaws in eq was that you could spend considerably amount of time waiting for a group opening for your class to be needed, and if you were not a solo class and in range of something to solo, this would be dead time with nothing to do.
I generally agree with that but would point out that grouping needs to be the better way to go. Soloing should be slower and less efficient to encourage people to want to group.
My main issue with Pantheon is that I'm quite certain they aren't actually making a grouping game but rather are making a multi-group raiding game. Oh sure, it'll start out as a grouping game and that'll last for a few months depending on how slow the leveling is but then it will transition into a raiding game.
Early EQ still had way more group content than raid. By a pretty wide margin. Just because SOE changed the game and made it more about raiding, doesn't mean these guys will. If you remember, that was around the time that many of the original EQ devs left for other projects, including Vanguard. Then what did we have in Vanguard? Another game that revolved around grouping with very little raiding.
Rest easy.
Yeah I don't think you have to worry about Pantheon turning into a raid heavy game.
Eq did well with increased rewards for grouping (encouraged but not forced), but it did lack stuff to do alone other than going alts or boxing - So I think it is important for Pantheon to have enough of these solo (or alone time) activities as well.
Also I got a remark about the grouping game definition, and that is you can't put players into "want to group" and "want to solo" categories, as most players are somewhere in between and moving up and down this scale all the time. Like Saturdays they got more time to group, and weekday nights they got less than an hour and just want some lighter stuff like killing a few easy things for a quest drop, sometimes they can't dedicate completely to a group because kids need attention or whatever life stuff happens, and sometimes it is just a matter of mood or actually having a group in level range and doing something interesting. Lot of factors apply.
(snip) Also I got a remark about the grouping game definition, and that is you can't put players into "want to group" and "want to solo" categories, as most players are somewhere in between and moving up and down this scale all the time. Like Saturdays they got more time to group, and weekday nights they got less than an hour and just want some lighter stuff like killing a few easy things for a quest drop, sometimes they can't dedicate completely to a group because kids need attention or whatever life stuff happens, and sometimes it is just a matter of mood or actually having a group in level range and doing something interesting. Lot of factors apply.
I understand you fears and concerns are legit. But bear in mind many players watching Pantheon want the group-oriented aspect back because they think it has been lost in todays MMO's. Ask yourself whether you want the group part back or whether it's the idea you like?
EQ required some time. It wasn't a quick MMO you can login for 30 minutes and get some things done. It was long-term. Years, not months. Travel wasn't instant. Nothing was instant. It hurt sometimes. You know that. We all know that, at least the ones who lpayed Everquest or even Vanguard.
BUT you're right life occurs. Sometimes we're not up to the grouping because like it or not it does require more of our attention.
We have to realize if this is group oriented it means soloing will be probably much less effective. Not just less effective. MUCH less. Do many of the people in the forum and elewhere who follow Pantheon understand that as a reality, or do they just like hte idea but don't like it in play?
Lets face it a huge majority of plaeyrs prefer soloing. How many of us in these forums right now only THINK we want a group-based MMO, but soon as we get into Pantheon we'll lose interest? At least some of us!
I know there're already too many words in this post but another thing is Pantheon needs to be niche too. It can't just try to be like other MMO's or it's fighting Goliath. While I don't think it's a promising commercial venture, finding a niche is advisable unless your budget is huge.
Is there a strong enough niche for group-based games?
I want to play EQ with updated graphics and new scenery, so I'm hoping you are correct. I did not like EQ2 group combat, (edit: I can't vouch for Vanguard's group mechanic, but if it was anything like EQ2 with predetermined group combos I wouldn't like it). I do not like pre-made combos, I want to come up with combos on my own. That's what working as a team is all about. Not some predefined order of things you must follow. I don't like scripted things in my games.
I really dislike that every class can do everything. It excellerated the dismantling of grouping up in MMO's. No need to have to invest in relationships and maintain a friendlist with your healers, tanks and dps: now you can just about invite anyone in and he/whe will switch to whatever role you require, enforcing the feeling of lone wolfing your way through the game. Hell you do not even have to say hello, just spam invite those waiting in front of the dungeon.
I think yours is a legitimate concern.
For me it's more about whether the gameplay in the grouping is enjoyable. One of the reasons I chose casters and hybrids is because they felt diverse gameplay-wise. It felt less like button mashing because I had so many tools I could use. I wasn't just using autoattck and hitting kick. I was snaring. I was casting buffs and dots. I was rooting sometimes and doing a patch heal during downtime to use my mana if needed. I was tracking. I tried pure classes like warriors and rogues and monks, but none of them gave me the same diversity of choice. They ended up just being mostly button mashing. It wasn't always button mashing, but they were so empty by comparison.
I think some players WANT button mashing. I think what I'm trying to say isn't that I want to solo. I just want interesting gameplay which isn't repetitive. So as long as there're interesting clsses in group-play it's ok.
I grouped a lot in EQ. A lot. I know what I'm talking about. I know what I like and what I don't. I don't like autoattack. I don't like just standing there hitting kick. I like the frantic pace of a dungeon crawl. Wandering mobs causing troubel. Trains. S*** flying. That's fun. That's what makes me log on. Sometimes groups were so organized it was boring. Nothing ever happened. It was good experience yes, but it was boring. My best experiences in Everquest were in small groups. They tended to be less organized and much funner.
My issue with Pantheon is simply that I fear they go too group centric. One of the biggest flaws in eq was that you could spend considerably amount of time waiting for a group opening for your class to be needed, and if you were not a solo class and in range of something to solo, this would be dead time with nothing to do.
I generally agree with that but would point out that grouping needs to be the better way to go. Soloing should be slower and less efficient to encourage people to want to group.
My main issue with Pantheon is that I'm quite certain they aren't actually making a grouping game but rather are making a multi-group raiding game. Oh sure, it'll start out as a grouping game and that'll last for a few months depending on how slow the leveling is but then it will transition into a raiding game.
I'm so desperate for a good grouping game I really wish I could get on board with Pantheon but I can't because of that one thing. I don't want a game I can enjoy for a few months and then it turns into something else. I want a game I can enjoy for years. I simply don't enjoy multi-group raiding and so when I reach the levels where it transitions into that I'll be faced with the "raid or quit" choice. Knowing this, I have to take the "quit" choice before I ever start so I can save myself a lot of aggravation.
I only bothered to post here because the damn shame of it drives me nuts. There are more people who prefer solo type MMOs but there are a significant number of people who actually want a grouping game again. The fatal mistake Brad and company are making is in assuming that everyone who wants a grouping game also wants a multi-group raiding game. That just isn't true.
Early EQ still had way more group content than raid. By a pretty wide margin. Just because SOE changed the game and made it more about raiding, doesn't mean these guys will. If you remember, that was around the time that many of the original EQ devs left for other projects, including Vanguard. Then what did we have in Vanguard? Another game that revolved around grouping with very little raiding.
Rest easy.
Early EQ had a few dungeons at key level ranges, the rest was outdoor areas that could be soloed by half the classes in the game with ease, and half of the rest without much trouble. Dungeons areas had much higher Zone Experience Modifiers than Outdoor areas, and the MOBs were laid out in a way that basically required group play. It wasn't just about difficulty, it was about layout as well. Doesn't matter if you could solo MOBs one by one in Sebilis, if you pulled and it had 3 friends incoming with it.
The issues the person you're quoting is talking about is not evident in most MMORPGs in the early stages of the game.
They become more apparent once the player base starts to hit the level cap and Expansions aren't adding a ton of levels on top. EQ added 10 levels in Kunark, didn't increase it in Velious or Luclin. The only reason for people to do Dungeons at level cap is:
1. Camp an item they need. 2. XP
People who didn't need to XP only went to dungeons to farm specific gear items, since the early raiding game in EQ could not fully equip a character.
This completely changed in Velious (Class Armor Sets and then some), so the only reason to go there was for IMBA items (Fungi Tunic, Cleric CH BP, etc.) or to finish Epic Quests.
This is why they added Alternate Advancement Points to the game. They could not raise the Level Cap fast enough, and in big enough chunks to keep "Level XP" a reason to consistently go to dungeons. They needed an alternative leveling system that wouldn't artificially block players form doing end game content.
Again, "early EQ" didn't have this issue simply because it was "early" and EQ had a steep leveling curve. It did not need much raid content to sustain players because players weren't at the cap chewing through raid content. They had several months to develop more content and get the first expansion ready. The players were busy leveling. They needed more leveling content than raid content.
However, Kunark had a ton of raid content. Velious was filled to the brim with Raid Content, and Luclin probably had about as much as Velious and half of Kunark combined. Planes of Power had tons. Omens of War had tons. Every expansion for EQ came filled to the brim with end-game raid content.
The only exception in that game were "adventure pack" types of expansions (Legacy of Ykesha, Lost Dungeons of Norrath, etc.) and the base game - which needed more leveling content so players could actually... get to level cap to be able to even attempt the few raids that were available to them.
(snip) Also I got a remark about the grouping game definition, and that is you can't put players into "want to group" and "want to solo" categories, as most players are somewhere in between and moving up and down this scale all the time. Like Saturdays they got more time to group, and weekday nights they got less than an hour and just want some lighter stuff like killing a few easy things for a quest drop, sometimes they can't dedicate completely to a group because kids need attention or whatever life stuff happens, and sometimes it is just a matter of mood or actually having a group in level range and doing something interesting. Lot of factors apply.
I understand you fears and concerns are legit. But bear in mind many players watching Pantheon want the group-oriented aspect back because they think it has been lost in todays MMO's. Ask yourself whether you want the group part back or whether it's the idea you like?
EQ required some time. It wasn't a quick MMO you can login for 30 minutes and get some things done. It was long-term. Years, not months. Travel wasn't instant. Nothing was instant. It hurt sometimes. You know that. We all know that, at least the ones who lpayed Everquest or even Vanguard.
BUT you're right life occurs. Sometimes we're not up to the grouping because like it or not it does require more of our attention.
We have to realize if this is group oriented it means soloing will be probably much less effective. Not just less effective. MUCH less. Do many of the people in the forum and elewhere who follow Pantheon understand that as a reality, or do they just like hte idea but don't like it in play?
Lets face it a huge majority of plaeyrs prefer soloing. How many of us in these forums right now only THINK we want a group-based MMO, but soon as we get into Pantheon we'll lose interest? At least some of us!
I know there're already too many words in this post but another thing is Pantheon needs to be niche too. It can't just try to be like other MMO's or it's fighting Goliath. While I don't think it's a promising commercial venture, finding a niche is advisable unless your budget is huge.
Is there a strong enough niche for group-based games?
Apparently so, aren't MOBAS usually played with a group of 5 in every situation?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Early EQ still had way more group content than raid. By a pretty wide margin. Just because SOE changed the game and made it more about raiding, doesn't mean these guys will. If you remember, that was around the time that many of the original EQ devs left for other projects, including Vanguard. Then what did we have in Vanguard? Another game that revolved around grouping with very little raiding.
Rest easy.
Early EQ had a few dungeons at key level ranges, the rest was outdoor areas that could be soloed by half the classes in the game with ease, and half of the rest without much trouble.
A few casters soloed with ease, a few with less ease. Soloing for the other half was anything but easy. Slaying light blues and light greens for .2% and having to wait 5 minutes to heal/med is not exactly what most people would call easy.
Dungeons areas had much higher Zone Experience Modifiers than Outdoor areas, and the MOBs were laid out in a way that basically required group play. It wasn't just about difficulty, it was about layout as well. Doesn't matter if you could solo MOBs one by one in Sebilis, if you pulled and it had 3 friends incoming with it.
The issues the person you're quoting is talking about is not evident in most MMORPGs in the early stages of the game.
They become more apparent once the player base starts to hit the level cap and Expansions aren't adding a ton of levels on top. EQ added 10 levels in Kunark, didn't increase it in Velious or Luclin. The only reason for people to do Dungeons at level cap is:
1. Camp an item they need. 2. XP
People who didn't need to XP only went to dungeons to farm specific gear items, since the early raiding game in EQ could not fully equip a character.
First, no one had all of the items they could achieve through raiding. Not even with the limited raid content that existed in vanilla EQ. Saying that early raids couldn't "fully equip a character" suggests that people were "finished" raiding, and that didn't happen. No one had full planar, god drops, and sky gear when Kunark came out. The average player didn't even know most of that stuff existed. That was with the very limited raid content that EQ had. It was challenging and slow going on getting upgrades.
Second, of the players that were at level cap, very few even had all of the items they needed from group content prior to new content releasing. Again, the average player wasn't even close to being done. Hence the reason Pantheon isn't focusing on raid content. EQ stands in my mind of the perfect balance of group to raid content. Claiming that a game must be more raid focused just isn't supported by what we saw in EQ.
Granted, that is all contingent upon having new content in a timely fashion. I don't think any MMO since pushed out new expansions as often as Verant did with EQ in the early years. One could only hope that such a pace could be achieved again. Otherwise, you're right, more raid content might be necessary to tide people over.
Before considering raiding though, the amount of content VR is suggesting Pantheon will have is so far beyond what EQ originally aimed to achieve, its not even funny. We're talking situational gear and specialized armor for various class builds. We're talking about earning, finding, acquiring new spells and abilities that could rival AAs for time investment. Epic quests. I could fanboy it up and talk about all the special features they've mentioned, but if only half of that stuff makes it in at launch, it could be a game that provides players with many months to years of content before they even begin raiding.
This completely changed in Velious (Class Armor Sets and then some), so the only reason to go there was for IMBA items (Fungi Tunic, Cleric CH BP, etc.) or to finish Epic Quests.
This is why they added Alternate Advancement Points to the game. They could not raise the Level Cap fast enough, and in big enough chunks to keep "Level XP" a reason to consistently go to dungeons. They needed an alternative leveling system that wouldn't artificially block players form doing end game content.
Again, "early EQ" didn't have this issue simply because it was "early" and EQ had a steep leveling curve. It did not need much raid content to sustain players because players weren't at the cap chewing through raid content.
If you didn't notice yet, these issues you keep bringing up that somehow didn't exist early on were par for the course for SOE. It wasn't just "because it was early", it was because SOE changed the game, plain and simple. Of course they had to gate content. Of course they had to change the focus of the game to raiding. It was a fundamentally different game at that point. Nothing more than a themepark treadmill focused on raiding. Thus, using it as a basis for why you "must" have more raid content is not a good argument.
Is there a strong enough niche for group-based games?
I actually think there is. But maybe I should clarify what I see as the difference between group-based and raid-based.
Group-based: You log in when you want to. You go where you want to go. You meet up with some friends or with some random people. You form a group. You have fun. It's informal and easy going. There are only five or six people so your contribution matters. You can voice your opinions and offer suggestions on how to do things. And when you're ready to quit you can say, "Hey guys I have to go" and it's ok, you can go unless the group happens to be at some critical point in which case you probably wouldn't leave right then anyway.
Raid-based: You log in when you're told to. You go where you're told to go. You are assigned a group to join. It's very organized and oppressive. There are 20 or 30 or more people so your contribution doesn't matter a lot. You are not allowed to voice your opinions or offer suggestions on how to do things. You are not allowed to quit when you want to. You do what the "important" people tell you to do and if you ever want to be allowed to take any loot you better get your nose as far up their behinds as you can.
That's the difference as I see it. Based on my own defined differences I really do believe there are enough people who want a grouping game to make one successful. But I don't believe there are enough people who want a raiding game to make that successful. In fact, I think it's more or less common knowledge at this point that the percentage of people who want that type of raiding game are an extremely small percent of mmo gamers.
It's not hard to figure out why either. The two things have totally different dynamics. The fact that they always seem to get lumped together has frustrated me for years.
I just want to go back to when it felt like when you used a skill something big was going to happen at the target location. I remember grouping in Karnor's Castle shortly after Kunark release on my wizard. Our monk was single pulling and I did very little until the tank had established agro and the mob was at 50-60% hp, then I'd drop an ice comet on its head which was a long ass cast and took a lot of resource but finished or almost finished the mob off. THAT'S a wizard. This new crap where I spam skills for very little impact in every game is bogus and in no way feels impactful.
Bring back 3-4 hour long buffs that are meaningful. Bring back 10 minute snares, long duration 1-3 minute DoTs, huge heals with long cast times, actual resource management INCLUDING DOWNTIME. Downtime doesn't need to be quite as extreme as EQC but actual "meditation" for a few minutes after 15-30 minutes of group grind? Yes please!
If only it was dangerous in a game again when you got an add and didn't have any CC. Two adds should be certain death without CC. Even in a full, otherwise balanced group. Nothing feels dangerous anymore in games? Got 10 adds? Who cares, fire off some aoes and let's move on! Died? Who cares, 30 second run back to your corpse, no xp lost, no worries we can be as reckless as we want, there's nothing to lose.
I still remember zoning into Kithicor forest at night on my blind as a bat human warrior in bronze armor and blue hands (crafted gloves, holy crap i was a beast) and my executioner's axe that I wielded with pride and trying to decide if I should risk running on the wall to Rivervale or should wait it out until daytime. I had SoW so I was feeling brave. At least the corpse run from west Freeport to halfling city wasn't too bad, lucky for me . I remember hearing the sound of giant footsteps off in the distance a bit while at an orc camp in Western Commonlands and scurrying away to safety while a few of my group members weren't quite so lucky. Sitting on the dock of the bay (in Oasis) and hearing the familiar sound of Spectres being trained there. Damn you griefers!
I don't know if it's even possible to bring back the magic of 1999 EQ. It's probably not. I'm glad to see a few developers are willing to give it the ole college try though, and hopeful that they can prove me wrong.
I just want to go back to when it felt like when you used a skill something big was going to happen at the target location. I remember grouping in Karnor's Castle shortly after Kunark release on my wizard. Our monk was single pulling and I did very little until the tank had established agro and the mob was at 50-60% hp, then I'd drop an ice comet on its head which was a long ass cast and took a lot of resource but finished or almost finished the mob off. THAT'S a wizard. This new crap where I spam skills for very little impact in every game is bogus and in no way feels impactful.
Bring back 3-4 hour long buffs that are meaningful. Bring back 10 minute snares, long duration 1-3 minute DoTs, huge heals with long cast times, actual resource management INCLUDING DOWNTIME. Downtime doesn't need to be quite as extreme as EQC but actual "meditation" for a few minutes after 15-30 minutes of group grind? Yes please!
If only it was dangerous in a game again when you got an add and didn't have any CC. Two adds should be certain death without CC. Even in a full, otherwise balanced group. Nothing feels dangerous anymore in games? Got 10 adds? Who cares, fire off some aoes and let's move on! Died? Who cares, 30 second run back to your corpse, no xp lost, no worries we can be as reckless as we want, there's nothing to lose.
I still remember zoning into Kithicor forest at night on my blind as a bat human warrior in bronze armor and blue hands (crafted gloves, holy crap i was a beast) and my executioner's axe that I wielded with pride and trying to decide if I should risk running on the wall to Rivervale or should wait it out until daytime. I had SoW so I was feeling brave. At least the corpse run from west Freeport to halfling city wasn't too bad, lucky for me . I remember hearing the sound of giant footsteps off in the distance a bit while at an orc camp in Western Commonlands and scurrying away to safety while a few of my group members weren't quite so lucky. Sitting on the dock of the bay (in Oasis) and hearing the familiar sound of Spectres being trained there. Damn you griefers!
I don't know if it's even possible to bring back the magic of 1999 EQ. It's probably not. I'm glad to see a few developers are willing to give it the ole college try though, and hopeful that they can prove me wrong.
I think there's a large portion of peeps who underestimate the power of old style mmo playing with updated graphics and new lands to explore, I would not be surprised at all to see Pantheon hold over a million subs for years to come. Love you post its spot on and totally agree.
Early EQ still had way more group content than raid. By a pretty wide margin. Just because SOE changed the game and made it more about raiding, doesn't mean these guys will. If you remember, that was around the time that many of the original EQ devs left for other projects, including Vanguard. Then what did we have in Vanguard? Another game that revolved around grouping with very little raiding.
Rest easy.
Early EQ had a few dungeons at key level ranges, the rest was outdoor areas that could be soloed by half the classes in the game with ease, and half of the rest without much trouble.
A few casters soloed with ease, a few with less ease. Soloing for the other half was anything but easy. Slaying light blues and light greens for .2% and having to wait 5 minutes to heal/med is not exactly what most people would call easy.
Dungeons areas had much higher Zone Experience Modifiers than Outdoor areas, and the MOBs were laid out in a way that basically required group play. It wasn't just about difficulty, it was about layout as well. Doesn't matter if you could solo MOBs one by one in Sebilis, if you pulled and it had 3 friends incoming with it.
The issues the person you're quoting is talking about is not evident in most MMORPGs in the early stages of the game.
They become more apparent once the player base starts to hit the level cap and Expansions aren't adding a ton of levels on top. EQ added 10 levels in Kunark, didn't increase it in Velious or Luclin. The only reason for people to do Dungeons at level cap is:
1. Camp an item they need. 2. XP
People who didn't need to XP only went to dungeons to farm specific gear items, since the early raiding game in EQ could not fully equip a character.
First, no one had all of the items they could achieve through raiding. Not even with the limited raid content that existed in vanilla EQ. Saying that early raids couldn't "fully equip a character" suggests that people were "finished" raiding, and that didn't happen. No one had full planar, god drops, and sky gear when Kunark came out. The average player didn't even know most of that stuff existed. That was with the very limited raid content that EQ had. It was challenging and slow going on getting upgrades.
Second, of the players that were at level cap, very few even had all of the items they needed from group content prior to new content releasing. Again, the average player wasn't even close to being done. Hence the reason Pantheon isn't focusing on raid content. EQ stands in my mind of the perfect balance of group to raid content. Claiming that a game must be more raid focused just isn't supported by what we saw in EQ.
Granted, that is all contingent upon having new content in a timely fashion. I don't think any MMO since pushed out new expansions as often as Verant did with EQ in the early years. One could only hope that such a pace could be achieved again. Otherwise, you're right, more raid content might be necessary to tide people over.
Before considering raiding though, the amount of content VR is suggesting Pantheon will have is so far beyond what EQ originally aimed to achieve, its not even funny. We're talking situational gear and specialized armor for various class builds. We're talking about earning, finding, acquiring new spells and abilities that could rival AAs for time investment. Epic quests. I could fanboy it up and talk about all the special features they've mentioned, but if only half of that stuff makes it in at launch, it could be a game that provides players with many months to years of content before they even begin raiding.
This completely changed in Velious (Class Armor Sets and then some), so the only reason to go there was for IMBA items (Fungi Tunic, Cleric CH BP, etc.) or to finish Epic Quests.
This is why they added Alternate Advancement Points to the game. They could not raise the Level Cap fast enough, and in big enough chunks to keep "Level XP" a reason to consistently go to dungeons. They needed an alternative leveling system that wouldn't artificially block players form doing end game content.
Again, "early EQ" didn't have this issue simply because it was "early" and EQ had a steep leveling curve. It did not need much raid content to sustain players because players weren't at the cap chewing through raid content.
If you didn't notice yet, these issues you keep bringing up that somehow didn't exist early on were par for the course for SOE. It wasn't just "because it was early", it was because SOE changed the game, plain and simple. Of course they had to gate content. Of course they had to change the focus of the game to raiding. It was a fundamentally different game at that point. Nothing more than a themepark treadmill focused on raiding. Thus, using it as a basis for why you "must" have more raid content is not a good argument.
snip
We get it. Your a Pantheon fanboi hence the signature. But you obviously didn't play EQ or you would know that it was WAY MORE than .02% that would solo. I ran a fairly large guild and could tell you that many many people soloed often. Very often in fact. Yes, the majority was grouping and such but your just not even close with those numbers.
We get it. Your a Pantheon fanboi hence the signature. But you obviously didn't play EQ or you would know that it was WAY MORE than .02% that would solo. I ran a fairly large guild and could tell you that many many people soloed often. Very often in fact. Yes, the majority was grouping and such but your just not even close with those numbers.
I didn't say .02% soloed. I said many classes struggled to solo, and thats about what you'd get per kill as say a melee killing light blues and green.
Nobody has ever had better class design then Vangaurd, no one is even close. Loved the crit chain system, the sound of those crits lept me going, no game has ever produced something like that for me. Pantheon, are you listening? Bring us back the crack of the crit chain!!
No way can I agree with this.
EQ had the best class design ever, and no MMORPG is remotely close.
That's because class roles changed depending on group makeup. My Ranger could be puller, tank, kite bait, or crowd control depending on group make up and mob types. While VG had some cool class designs, the classes just didnt have the depth that EQ has.
Best thing about the VG combat system was offensive and defensive targeting.
Vangaurd had some really good classes but most were way too keyspammy and counterproductive for a group centric game. For instance healers were very good at soloing even at launch, which means you're giving them huge incentives NOT to group. I'm sure you can see the problem here. EQ Classes were simpler and technically less fun but also far better for group dungeon diving, community building & immersion.
The classes also happen to be the only thing good about Vanguard so I'm perfectly fine with Pantheon ignoring that game altogether. The VG fanboi's will rage but that's only like 50 ppl so uhhh.......who cares?
Getting enough people to play healers in EQ was a challenge, due to too much specializing and not being as fun and more frustrating and for many, thankless. One of the most common complaints about EQ healers was their penchant to stare at health bars and sitting on their asses all the time. There was a reason why there were far more shaman and druids than clerics in a game that demanded clerics, especially in the higher end game. Whatever systems they choose, they really need to keep class popularity in mind during the design process or we'll end up with yet another never ending looking for cleric fiasco.
especially should really say 'only'. Shaman and Druids were fine for 99% of group content. Sure, they couldnt always solo heal but it was a 6 man group.
The main reason they were in such huge raid demand was cheal chains. And i agree it was an issue. I would be shocked if the same mistake is made again.
I think there's a large portion of peeps who underestimate the power of old style mmo playing with updated graphics and new lands to explore, I would not be surprised at all to see Pantheon hold over a million subs for years to come. Love you post its spot on and totally agree.
Over a million subs? Try to contain your enthusiasm. As far as I know the only MMO in the west that has retained over a million subs over several years is WoW. At the peak EQ had somewhere around 400k or so (I think). A million subs would overwhelm the expectation that VR says they have and I would expect bad things...
I think there's a large portion of peeps who underestimate the power of old style mmo playing with updated graphics and new lands to explore, I would not be surprised at all to see Pantheon hold over a million subs for years to come. Love you post its spot on and totally agree.
Over a million subs? Try to contain your enthusiasm. As far as I know the only MMO in the west that has retained over a million subs over several years is WoW. At the peak EQ had somewhere around 400k or so (I think). A million subs would overwhelm the expectation that VR says they have and I would expect bad things...
EQ also became popular when there was about 1/15th of the people that are currently on the internet. Just something to think about, because there hasn't been anything remotely like it since, so theres no data to suggest otherwise (no, I don't believe VG and EQ2 were even close to on par with classic EQ).
The game is still a long ways out, and it remains to be seen whether they can achieve everything they aspire to, but if they do, a million subs is not at all unrealistic.
I think there's a large portion of peeps who underestimate the power of old style mmo playing with updated graphics and new lands to explore, I would not be surprised at all to see Pantheon hold over a million subs for years to come. Love you post its spot on and totally agree.
Over a million subs? Try to contain your enthusiasm. As far as I know the only MMO in the west that has retained over a million subs over several years is WoW. At the peak EQ had somewhere around 400k or so (I think). A million subs would overwhelm the expectation that VR says they have and I would expect bad things...
EQ also became popular when there was about 1/15th of the people that are currently on the internet. Just something to think about, because there hasn't been anything remotely like it since, so theres no data to suggest otherwise (no, I don't believe VG and EQ2 were even close to on par with classic EQ).
The game is still a long ways out, and it remains to be seen whether they can achieve everything they aspire to, but if they do, a million subs is not at all unrealistic.
True about fewer people being on the internet and it is also true that there were fewer options for those people. From what I remember reading though VR is not aiming for those types of numbers and won't be prepared if they arrive.
Has there been any MMO in the west that has had more than a million subs at once other than WoW and SWTOR? SWTOR went below 1 million subs within 6 months or so. Some others are harder to judge due to a different business model (FTP, BTP, that sort of thing).
My main issue with Pantheon is that it looks like the classes will be like EQ, not like in Vanguard.
Now dont get me wrong. I wont object to any good idea from other games, including EQ, introduced in this project, if they fit into the concept and make the game better.
But frankly if I wanted to play EQ - the original is still available, is it not ? But Vanguard is no longer up.
And Vanguard had a huge and important improvement over EQ in respect to the class design, and that was that classes havent been locked into one task only. In Vanguard, most classes had a primary task, at which they have been overall as good as other classes, and then they had secondary tasks that havent been unimportant either.
For example the Cleric, the class I played the most (and in the end got kinda sick of), you have been obviously healer as primary task, but you also could operate as an offtank, you had decent defenses and even a rescue, and you had a lot of abilities, like a debuff of the opponent, a group buff you could only put up after a critical hit, and so on.
In detail, it was something like this:
Warrior - tank, maximum dps output (later also dual weapons), various bardic (i.e. group buff) abilities Paladin - tank, healer abilities (later specialized into weapon+shield) Dread Knight - tank, necromatic / magic dps abilities (lifetap, fear, etc), later specced to twohanded weapons Inquisitor - tank, psionic abilities - was never realized, I'm still curious how that one would have been, described as an anti-magic tank
Berserker - melee dps, rage abilities - also never realized, sadly Rogue - melee dps (second top dps), dagger specialist, stealth, various trickery Ranger - melee/ranged dps, small druidic style healing including speed buff, stealth, pet (but not real pet class) Monk - special monk weapons, fake death, different specs (dragon/offense, harmonious/debuff, drunken/defense) Bard - melee dps, group buffs (songs), debuffer and second best crowd control
Cleric - healer, spike heal+spike tank heal+heal over time, most general buffs, offtanking Shaman - healer, spike heal with invul+reactive heals, variety of buffs including runspeed, three specs (bear/defense, wolf/melee dps+stealth, phoenix/magic) Disciple - healer, high single target heals, monk weapons Blood Mage - healer, lifetap heals, mage abilities
Sorcerer - magic dps (top dps), dispel / reflect magic, magic damage invuln Druid - magic dps (top spike dps), nature themed, healing abilities, pets (but not real pet class) Psionicist - magic dps, crowd control specialist Necromancer - magic dps, broad selection of damage over time spells, pet class and summons (need corpses), fake death, raise dead (need ressources from corpses), fear/snare, transformation into undead at level 30 and various invulnerabilities
So everyone but Sorcerer (most of the time, anyway) and maybe also Rogue (havent played that one much, sadly) had secondary tasks.
I have played healers before and they've been really dull in other games. In Vanguard, they've been huge fun. Well except I got sick of Cleric in the end, still played him in groups though.
Well, thats my problem with Pantheon. The classes look a lot more like EQ than like Vanguard. But if I wanted to play EQ, I would simply have done that already, wouldnt I ?
I was healing with my Monk in Vanguard, support classes. Also the Chanter from Aion Staff Support class that was just as enjoyable. To me these were unique compared to a lot of class in the MMO market.
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I generally agree with that but would point out that grouping needs to be the better way to go. Soloing should be slower and less efficient to encourage people to want to group.
My main issue with Pantheon is that I'm quite certain they aren't actually making a grouping game but rather are making a multi-group raiding game. Oh sure, it'll start out as a grouping game and that'll last for a few months depending on how slow the leveling is but then it will transition into a raiding game.
I'm so desperate for a good grouping game I really wish I could get on board with Pantheon but I can't because of that one thing. I don't want a game I can enjoy for a few months and then it turns into something else. I want a game I can enjoy for years. I simply don't enjoy multi-group raiding and so when I reach the levels where it transitions into that I'll be faced with the "raid or quit" choice. Knowing this, I have to take the "quit" choice before I ever start so I can save myself a lot of aggravation.
I only bothered to post here because the damn shame of it drives me nuts. There are more people who prefer solo type MMOs but there are a significant number of people who actually want a grouping game again. The fatal mistake Brad and company are making is in assuming that everyone who wants a grouping game also wants a multi-group raiding game. That just isn't true.
The "one class can do all" model is what makes today's MMO's garbage.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I wish I could find a couple of posts gor you from Brad. Cant remember where and Im on Android and it doesnt like links. Anyways. Brad has specifically said that the primary focus was grouping but that there would be raids. He also suggested and asked for ideas about making group content just as relevent as raid content. So that raiding isnt specifically required to take progression to that next level. Maybe someone can help me with a link?
Rest easy.
Eq did well with increased rewards for grouping (encouraged but not forced), but it did lack stuff to do alone other than going alts or boxing - So I think it is important for Pantheon to have enough of these solo (or alone time) activities as well.
Also I got a remark about the grouping game definition, and that is you can't put players into "want to group" and "want to solo" categories, as most players are somewhere in between and moving up and down this scale all the time. Like Saturdays they got more time to group, and weekday nights they got less than an hour and just want some lighter stuff like killing a few easy things for a quest drop, sometimes they can't dedicate completely to a group because kids need attention or whatever life stuff happens, and sometimes it is just a matter of mood or actually having a group in level range and doing something interesting. Lot of factors apply.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I liked what I saw in the video, hopefully they can make a fun game.
Redsalt... the other salt.
EQ required some time. It wasn't a quick MMO you can login for 30 minutes and get some things done. It was long-term. Years, not months. Travel wasn't instant. Nothing was instant. It hurt sometimes. You know that. We all know that, at least the ones who lpayed Everquest or even Vanguard.
BUT you're right life occurs. Sometimes we're not up to the grouping because like it or not it does require more of our attention.
We have to realize if this is group oriented it means soloing will be probably much less effective. Not just less effective. MUCH less. Do many of the people in the forum and elewhere who follow Pantheon understand that as a reality, or do they just like hte idea but don't like it in play?
Lets face it a huge majority of plaeyrs prefer soloing. How many of us in these forums right now only THINK we want a group-based MMO, but soon as we get into Pantheon we'll lose interest? At least some of us!
I know there're already too many words in this post but another thing is Pantheon needs to be niche too. It can't just try to be like other MMO's or it's fighting Goliath. While I don't think it's a promising commercial venture, finding a niche is advisable unless your budget is huge.
Is there a strong enough niche for group-based games?
For me it's more about whether the gameplay in the grouping is enjoyable. One of the reasons I chose casters and hybrids is because they felt diverse gameplay-wise. It felt less like button mashing because I had so many tools I could use. I wasn't just using autoattck and hitting kick. I was snaring. I was casting buffs and dots. I was rooting sometimes and doing a patch heal during downtime to use my mana if needed. I was tracking. I tried pure classes like warriors and rogues and monks, but none of them gave me the same diversity of choice. They ended up just being mostly button mashing. It wasn't always button mashing, but they were so empty by comparison.
I think some players WANT button mashing. I think what I'm trying to say isn't that I want to solo. I just want interesting gameplay which isn't repetitive. So as long as there're interesting clsses in group-play it's ok.
I grouped a lot in EQ. A lot. I know what I'm talking about. I know what I like and what I don't. I don't like autoattack. I don't like just standing there hitting kick. I like the frantic pace of a dungeon crawl. Wandering mobs causing troubel. Trains. S*** flying. That's fun. That's what makes me log on. Sometimes groups were so organized it was boring. Nothing ever happened. It was good experience yes, but it was boring. My best experiences in Everquest were in small groups. They tended to be less organized and much funner.
The issues the person you're quoting is talking about is not evident in most MMORPGs in the early stages of the game.
They become more apparent once the player base starts to hit the level cap and Expansions aren't adding a ton of levels on top. EQ added 10 levels in Kunark, didn't increase it in Velious or Luclin. The only reason for people to do Dungeons at level cap is:
1. Camp an item they need.
2. XP
People who didn't need to XP only went to dungeons to farm specific gear items, since the early raiding game in EQ could not fully equip a character.
This completely changed in Velious (Class Armor Sets and then some), so the only reason to go there was for IMBA items (Fungi Tunic, Cleric CH BP, etc.) or to finish Epic Quests.
This is why they added Alternate Advancement Points to the game. They could not raise the Level Cap fast enough, and in big enough chunks to keep "Level XP" a reason to consistently go to dungeons. They needed an alternative leveling system that wouldn't artificially block players form doing end game content.
Again, "early EQ" didn't have this issue simply because it was "early" and EQ had a steep leveling curve. It did not need much raid content to sustain players because players weren't at the cap chewing through raid content. They had several months to develop more content and get the first expansion ready. The players were busy leveling. They needed more leveling content than raid content.
However, Kunark had a ton of raid content. Velious was filled to the brim with Raid Content, and Luclin probably had about as much as Velious and half of Kunark combined. Planes of Power had tons. Omens of War had tons. Every expansion for EQ came filled to the brim with end-game raid content.
The only exception in that game were "adventure pack" types of expansions (Legacy of Ykesha, Lost Dungeons of Norrath, etc.) and the base game - which needed more leveling content so players could actually... get to level cap to be able to even attempt the few raids that were available to them.
Just saying.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Second, of the players that were at level cap, very few even had all of the items they needed from group content prior to new content releasing. Again, the average player wasn't even close to being done. Hence the reason Pantheon isn't focusing on raid content. EQ stands in my mind of the perfect balance of group to raid content. Claiming that a game must be more raid focused just isn't supported by what we saw in EQ.
Granted, that is all contingent upon having new content in a timely fashion. I don't think any MMO since pushed out new expansions as often as Verant did with EQ in the early years. One could only hope that such a pace could be achieved again. Otherwise, you're right, more raid content might be necessary to tide people over.
Before considering raiding though, the amount of content VR is suggesting Pantheon will have is so far beyond what EQ originally aimed to achieve, its not even funny. We're talking situational gear and specialized armor for various class builds. We're talking about earning, finding, acquiring new spells and abilities that could rival AAs for time investment. Epic quests. I could fanboy it up and talk about all the special features they've mentioned, but if only half of that stuff makes it in at launch, it could be a game that provides players with many months to years of content before they even begin raiding. If you didn't notice yet, these issues you keep bringing up that somehow didn't exist early on were par for the course for SOE. It wasn't just "because it was early", it was because SOE changed the game, plain and simple. Of course they had to gate content. Of course they had to change the focus of the game to raiding. It was a fundamentally different game at that point. Nothing more than a themepark treadmill focused on raiding. Thus, using it as a basis for why you "must" have more raid content is not a good argument.
I actually think there is. But maybe I should clarify what I see as the difference between group-based and raid-based.
Group-based: You log in when you want to. You go where you want to go. You meet up with some friends or with some random people. You form a group. You have fun. It's informal and easy going. There are only five or six people so your contribution matters. You can voice your opinions and offer suggestions on how to do things. And when you're ready to quit you can say, "Hey guys I have to go" and it's ok, you can go unless the group happens to be at some critical point in which case you probably wouldn't leave right then anyway.
Raid-based: You log in when you're told to. You go where you're told to go. You are assigned a group to join. It's very organized and oppressive. There are 20 or 30 or more people so your contribution doesn't matter a lot. You are not allowed to voice your opinions or offer suggestions on how to do things. You are not allowed to quit when you want to. You do what the "important" people tell you to do and if you ever want to be allowed to take any loot you better get your nose as far up their behinds as you can.
That's the difference as I see it. Based on my own defined differences I really do believe there are enough people who want a grouping game to make one successful. But I don't believe there are enough people who want a raiding game to make that successful. In fact, I think it's more or less common knowledge at this point that the percentage of people who want that type of raiding game are an extremely small percent of mmo gamers.
It's not hard to figure out why either. The two things have totally different dynamics. The fact that they always seem to get lumped together has frustrated me for years.
Bring back 3-4 hour long buffs that are meaningful. Bring back 10 minute snares, long duration 1-3 minute DoTs, huge heals with long cast times, actual resource management INCLUDING DOWNTIME. Downtime doesn't need to be quite as extreme as EQC but actual "meditation" for a few minutes after 15-30 minutes of group grind? Yes please!
If only it was dangerous in a game again when you got an add and didn't have any CC. Two adds should be certain death without CC. Even in a full, otherwise balanced group. Nothing feels dangerous anymore in games? Got 10 adds? Who cares, fire off some aoes and let's move on! Died? Who cares, 30 second run back to your corpse, no xp lost, no worries we can be as reckless as we want, there's nothing to lose.
I still remember zoning into Kithicor forest at night on my blind as a bat human warrior in bronze armor and blue hands (crafted gloves, holy crap i was a beast) and my executioner's axe that I wielded with pride and trying to decide if I should risk running on the wall to Rivervale or should wait it out until daytime. I had SoW so I was feeling brave. At least the corpse run from west Freeport to halfling city wasn't too bad, lucky for me
I don't know if it's even possible to bring back the magic of 1999 EQ. It's probably not. I'm glad to see a few developers are willing to give it the ole college try though, and hopeful that they can prove me wrong.
EQ had the best class design ever, and no MMORPG is remotely close.
That's because class roles changed depending on group makeup.
My Ranger could be puller, tank, kite bait, or crowd control depending on group make up and mob types.
While VG had some cool class designs, the classes just didnt have the depth that EQ has.
Best thing about the VG combat system was offensive and defensive targeting.
especially should really say 'only'. Shaman and Druids were fine for 99% of group content. Sure, they couldnt always solo heal but it was a 6 man group.
The main reason they were in such huge raid demand was cheal chains. And i agree it was an issue. I would be shocked if the same mistake is made again.
The game is still a long ways out, and it remains to be seen whether they can achieve everything they aspire to, but if they do, a million subs is not at all unrealistic.
Has there been any MMO in the west that has had more than a million subs at once other than WoW and SWTOR? SWTOR went below 1 million subs within 6 months or so. Some others are harder to judge due to a different business model (FTP, BTP, that sort of thing).