Forced PvP guarantee's that I and many like me won't be back...
Shame.
I don't understand why people would leave due to an update that caters to another segment of players. Especially when those players are also a part of the core design that was there in the beginning.
Well I'd say its because they decided base the game around a beloved single player P V FUCKING E franchise, but that's just me. "Wow this game seems to attract a lot of gamers that aren't PVP oriented, how the fuck did that happen?" /faceplam
"Want game play like the games we drew this from? Well tough shit as we actually wanted to make DAOC 2.0 but don't own the license so we decided to rip off an IP with name recognition to sell game boxes, rather than create our own."
So... because ESO is an MMO based on a single player franchise it shouldn't have staple MMO features like PVP?
And when you add content right smack in the middle of the only PVP zone in the game, people should rage quit because there's PVP in there?
Not to mention that this is the one and only planned PVP content. Everything before and everything announced is PVE zones and content.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
By placing the DLC "right in the middle of the only PvP area" (someone else said this earlier), Zeni has alienated PvErs. Maybe not true, just my opinion, but PvPrs want more players to "interact with" in PvP zones (i.e., kill) because that's what they enjoy. When PvErs complain, PvPrs don't understand what all the fuss is about. "It's a core dynamic" they say, "It's more realistic" they say, "It's really fun if you just try it" they say. Fact is, most of us "Carebears" have been playing MMOs for around 30 years now. We've seen the same old arguments time and again. The facts are, PvErs don't want to be ganked. When people "rage quit" because of "forced PvP" the PvP crowd tries to stop the inevitable flood by re-explaining the virtues of PvP. When there are no more PvE players, the PvP crowd looks around at the minimal population and complain about "Carebears" leaving. I don't believe anyone has figured out how to satisfy both groups yet, and not sure if anyone ever will.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
This is a prime example of trying to please two entirely different communities and not being able to properly cater to either.
Welcome to AAA MMO design
The PVP vs. PVE community wars is as old as MMOs and doing just one to the exclusion of the other is a recipe for a niche.
Anyway, this will all blow over once Orsinium is released in a couple of months.
Imho, ZOS made two mistakes with the release of the Imperial City:
It should have been a free update and then you wouldn't have the gripes about "I paid for it so I want it done my way."
It should have been released at the same time as Orsinium so that PVErs and PVPers would both have had something new and shiny to play with
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Forced PvP guarantee's that I and many like me won't be back...
Shame.
I don't understand why people would leave due to an update that caters to another segment of players. Especially when those players are also a part of the core design that was there in the beginning.
Well I'd say its because they decided base the game around a beloved single player P V FUCKING E franchise, but that's just me. "Wow this game seems to attract a lot of gamers that aren't PVP oriented, how the fuck did that happen?" /faceplam
"Want game play like the games we drew this from? Well tough shit as we actually wanted to make DAOC 2.0 but don't own the license so we decided to rip off an IP with name recognition to sell game boxes, rather than create our own."
A majority of the focus thus far has been on the PVE side of the game, as well as bringing more immersion to the single-player experience. Little has been done within Cyrodil, or for the PVP side of things. Hence why I'd wonder why the PVE oriented would have a problem in regard to this.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It doesn't seem like much a of a solution. Of course, the zerg heavy side (EP on NA -- I know every side has zergs, but EP is the most populated side in Cyro) will farm their gear the easier way in numbers and then go over and shut down the server with locked gates.
To me, faction imbalance needs to be dealt with before I come back. This solution is just not going to work out.
It just boggles my mind how people continue to miss the point. A locked Imperial City where only one faction goes in at a time, guarantees that the mostly PVE members of that faction will have much less PVP to contend with once they're in the IC.
You go in, clear the remnants of the previous faction and then PVE in relative peace as opposed to going in and PVPing mixed with the PVE all of the time which is what happens when you have it wide open.
Do people even understand what the hell they're ranting about?
I suspect not; the "golden age" of DF was pre WoW. And whilst Zenimax may have "listened" the sad fact is that - we must assume - they didn't think it through.
From a business perspective I fully expected IC to be paid DLC. From a gaming perspective however I agreed with you it shouldn't have been.
Having decided to release it as paid DLC you have the issue of people who have paid for it expect to be able to play it; perfectly reasonable. As you said pre-launch though and maybe a handful of us understood that leads to "issues". MF certainly, hopefully other members of the team, should have been able to anticipate this.
Will it have harmed the reception of future DLC drops?
How do you do pvp in IC if only one faction can access it at a time?
In DAOC's Darkness Falls this happened a couple of ways.
When it changed ownership the new owners still have to clear the previous ones. There's a lot of PVP during that time
But not every enemy player is killed and cleared. Some hide and stick around ganking. It's never 100% cleared but it's relatively much safer. You also have the advantage that if your alliance owns it and you're killed, you can respawn inside. The leftover gankers can't - they're kicked form the instance when they die and rez.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This update was vastly desired by a LOT of MMO gamers for ages, probably since before the game's release. While it may not be very PVE heavy, don't for a second think that it means PVE is forgotten. That's what the whole focus of the next DLC is about.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
As a subscriber since launch, it's clear to me that IC has been wildly successful. Any of us having to deal with ques to get into Cyrodiil nightly know this. There are tons of players in my guild who have only done PvE in the past getting very excited about fighting in IC and now Cyrodiil as a whole.
Anyone claiming any kind of exodus is nuts. There are a few bugs still to fix but overall the vast majority of players are enjoying PvP more than ever.
Overall it has brought smaller scale PvP to Cyrodiil and is a great addition to the overall game. Remember that most of the benefits of playing in IC are for VR 15 and VR 16 players and there is a ton of the population below level cap still.
For the gated campaign to be a success, there needs to be an incentive to join the campaign. The biggest issue with this is addressing the faction population imbalance particularly on PC NA. Hoping they will offer something worthwhile for rewards and a gated 30 day campaign which is necessary for the best rewards at the end of the campaign. Rolling out the first version with no incentive and on a 7 day campaign won't work.
Right back to my serving two masters point. "Ok we're pandering to the PVP crowd with this highly anticipated DLC and PVE players need not apply, and that's ok because next time we'll be putting out a DLC that won't excite the PVP crowd." Yeah fucking brilliant way to run a game. Ideally if you are going to court players with different play styles wouldn't you want to try to sell them every DLC you make? Especially if you've dropped the subscription model and will need to rely on sales of other stuff to keep your game alive?
You're always going to have two or more sides in an MMORPG game, be it crafters vs Combatants, PVE oriented vs PVP, Raiders vs etc... I don't see people leaving in mass when a game offers a new raid, or a crafting update, a new BG, etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I just got tired of the clowns at ZOS and their game updates. The IC patch was just the final nail in the coffin for me, and i've been playing FFXIV ever since. The latter is a hell of a lot more stable than ESO, and it was instantly noticeable.
You're always going to have two or more sides in an MMORPG game, be it crafters vs Combatants, PVE oriented vs PVP, Raiders vs etc... I don't see people leaving in mass when a game offers a new raid, or a crafting update, a new BG, etc...
And I don't disagree with those points, but I think you'd agree that when it comes down to interaction between pro and anti PVPers emotions tend to run a bit hotter.
So when a game a customer is playing offers new content, the first big content in quite a while, its absurd to think said customer is going to be content to not play it due to it not focusing on their particular play style. And when that content essentially forces non PVP-cenrtric players, which I've already explained this particular IP is going to draw in droves, to have to risk the chance of open PVP with the added risk of actually having items they've worked for taken from them in the unwanted PVP, if they want to participate in the portion of the new DLC that is PVE, the quests, the crafting resource grind, etc, I have no trouble imagining they are going to be more than a little pissed off.
True they've rarely gotten along in most cases, not all though, some games got away with it in the sandbox realm (UO, SWG)... Even DAOC managed a decent balance for a time, at least until they tried forcing one play-style on the other.
I'd agree people would be rightly pissed if they were made to believe they were being catered to in a DLC pack, I don't think that was ever the case though in this situation. I don't think it was a secret what IC was and what it was focusing on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I hear a lot of back and forth between PvE and PvP. Doesn't it have both? Inherently, the franchise is PvE since it's a single player game, so that they included PvP, seems to be something of a gift to the PvP players.
Forced PvP guarantee's that I and many like me won't be back...
Shame.
Yeah I agree, I don't know why they are focusing on that garbage....... They def didn't listen to the community, he has got it all wrong. They might of listened to a small amount of people, but I remember me and a bunch of others, would of rather of had what they promised a long time ago. Which was non forced pvp, with the justice system, and the thief and dark brother hood. That move cost them my sub forever, O well, I am prolly in the minority.
I will say this though, if they made that justice system like they said, which they lied, and never did anything with it, but if they made enforcers and thieves it would be a unique game. As it stands now its garbage on every front. There are a crap ton of games that do PVP better, including DAOC, there are a lot of games that have better quests, such as skyrim. ESO, does everything just barely worthy of calling it a good game.
Gated entrance to IC fights the zerg. Very effectively, I might add, as any death in the zerg of a realm not owning the entrance can't respawn inside the city.
As for the goals inside the city, you're right; this doesn't really have any effect.
EDIT- And why I won't be paying $25 for the expansion nor subscribing. Updated my client, played less than an hour... Got glitched into a doorway where mobs could attack me but I could do nothing about it (couldn't attack nor zone out). Bush league, honestly. No time for that.
The only fault I can see with the pvp system is population control. It's fine to say, go to cyro and do the work, and I'm not totally opposed to this but I am one with 3 main toons each of different factions. I have to carefully investigate which pvp server to place each toon into considering that I am returning from time away and having to build up guild affiliations so I have people to group with again. But in managing the servers I can get my AD toon on a few different servers and be well to over populated, but more crucial to get my DC toon on a server where this faction stands a chance against the other 2. This just so happens to take up 2 of the most active servers currently leaving my EP toon having to go to wastelands with minimal activity. I left eso a while back due to stale content and the fact that all 3 of my mains where gridlocked into shitty pvp servers that my guilds were not in.
Now the effect of being in a faction that over populates the server is firstly there is little skill to develop in pvp when you steamroll everyone else and with multiple farming groups doing the pve stuff you step on each others toes and slow the process down lootwise. I can tell you now, what you don't want is an imperial city open to just 1 faction that swamps the server.
If you want players to join the locked server they will have to offer some kind of elitist reward for doing so. But population control remains an issue.
Was reading the ESO forums the other day. A lot of players didn't like the new area so much they said they cancelled their subs. Can't say how true this is or not.--------------------------
A large number of canceled subs would call for a fast response by the company.-----------------------------------
There's always been a problem with doing PvE in PvP areas. The problem with ESO is that risk doesn't equal reward for a lot of players.
I cancelled mine. Though it wouldn't be fair to say I cancelled because I hated it. I cancelled because I'm not interested in PvE-ing in a PvP area. Not even slightly. Thus there was next to 0 new content for me in this Xpac...................
And hey, that's fine. A game doesn't have to always be about what I or other PVE'ers like. But I will say that if this is the route they'll be choosing for all their future DLC, they won't see another dime from me. And admittedly, concerns about that have affected the amount of time I've invested in this game, since.
I love the new IC, and I think it is great that all factions are allowed in. I have had more actual pvp (ie fighting players not zerging walls) in the last couple of weeks in ESO in IC than in the year or so I have been playing, totally awesome.
The whole area has this atmospheric cramped, darksoulish feel to it, the chaos that ensues when bosses spawn while you are pvping is just crazy. There is a real penalty for dying (without being crippling), there is a reward for surviving and taking down players, you don't have to run around standing on points, and you can level without feeling like its a grind. In short its just huge fun.
One of Warhammer's bigger fuckups was shipping with only one capital city for each faction rather than the planned city for each race. It turns out that people didn't necessarily like being locked out of the only place they could go to do certain things when their faction lost a fight.
Oh and selling content patches as DLC in an MMO is lower than low.
Comments
And when you add content right smack in the middle of the only PVP zone in the game, people should rage quit because there's PVP in there?
Not to mention that this is the one and only planned PVP content. Everything before and everything announced is PVE zones and content.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
The PVP vs. PVE community wars is as old as MMOs and doing just one to the exclusion of the other is a recipe for a niche.
Anyway, this will all blow over once Orsinium is released in a couple of months.
Imho, ZOS made two mistakes with the release of the Imperial City:
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When it changed ownership the new owners still have to clear the previous ones. There's a lot of PVP during that time
But not every enemy player is killed and cleared. Some hide and stick around ganking. It's never 100% cleared but it's relatively much safer. You also have the advantage that if your alliance owns it and you're killed, you can respawn inside. The leftover gankers can't - they're kicked form the instance when they die and rez.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My Review Manifesto
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For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd agree people would be rightly pissed if they were made to believe they were being catered to in a DLC pack, I don't think that was ever the case though in this situation. I don't think it was a secret what IC was and what it was focusing on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I self identify as a monkey.
I will say this though, if they made that justice system like they said, which they lied, and never did anything with it, but if they made enforcers and thieves it would be a unique game. As it stands now its garbage on every front. There are a crap ton of games that do PVP better, including DAOC, there are a lot of games that have better quests, such as skyrim. ESO, does everything just barely worthy of calling it a good game.
As for the goals inside the city, you're right; this doesn't really have any effect.
EDIT- And why I won't be paying $25 for the expansion nor subscribing. Updated my client, played less than an hour... Got glitched into a doorway where mobs could attack me but I could do nothing about it (couldn't attack nor zone out). Bush league, honestly. No time for that.
The whole area has this atmospheric cramped, darksoulish feel to it, the chaos that ensues when bosses spawn while you are pvping is just crazy. There is a real penalty for dying (without being crippling), there is a reward for surviving and taking down players, you don't have to run around standing on points, and you can level without feeling like its a grind. In short its just huge fun.