If those articles, as you guys say, have libel, defamation, doxing, etc...
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
If those articles, as you guys say, have libel, defamation, doxing, etc...
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
If those articles, as you guys say, have libel, defamation, doxing, etc...
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
If those articles, as you guys say, have libel, defamation, doxing, etc...
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
Did you read the OP? The entire point was that the article is substantially correct and the attempts to discredit it were disingenuous.
Do we need another thread on the same subject when there is a thread you can post in here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6751678/#Comment_6751678 . Reason why you didn't post in the other thread is because you would not really be notice hence the misleading title to this thread.
Do we need another thread on the same subject when there is a thread you can post in here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6751678/#Comment_6751678 . Reason why you didn't post in the other thread is because you would not really be notice hence the misleading title to this thread.
Where is the moderation?
Thank fuck the moderation is not with you. This required the same exposure as the attempts to unfairly paint bad journalism. The point needed to be corrected.
Hang on, you barely read beyond the first sentence did you? You have no idea what this thread is about
Yeah, BS. No identified sources this is just baseless accusations at this point. Until a credible witness, ie an actual named employee (or former employee) comes forward this is all BS. Also, I am not sure where the production is taking place, but just on the first page alone there is enough allegation to support a legal suit in either the U.S. or the U.K. So again I say BS to the entire article.
Now, if some legal action is announced agains CIG, or Roberts then I will eat crow but until then I am not buying it at all.
And before you say it, no I am not a fanboi, I am not even a supporter of the game, and yes I am a Derek Smart hater, but this is not related to that idiot, and until I see something from an official source, this is all just bunk. imo.
Ok, go take some journalism classes and then work at a newspaper for a few years. NO journalist gives up their sources, especially if the source is detailing information that could be harmful to someone else's reputation. PBS Frontline interviewed a dozen world renowned journalists on this very topic recently and almost to a man they agreed that source confidentiality is critical. In fact, Carl Bernstein who helped break the Watergate scandal claimed "I know of very little important reporting of the last 30 to 40 years that has been done without use of confidential sources..."
If you're a game developer and you wish to continue working in the industry, then you don't sit in front of a journalist and say "Oh, sure, use my real name in your article where I give you the inside dirt on the company that I just left". The reason for this is that they'll never work in the industry again. No company in their right mind would hire a developer that has shown a willingness to give inside information to a reporter, no matter how well that company is doing internally.
The real question here is "Is this journalist credible?". Has the journalist who put forth this article written anything before? Are they well known for good journalism and credibility? Are there any complaints against them from sources claiming they took their words out of context or contorted them?
I clicked on the author's name on the The Escapist article and discovered through the associated link that she has been a journalist with them since March of 2015 and has written dozens of articles. The only complaints I could find against this journalist were complaints in the comments section of the articles where she writes about SC. The fans of this game border on ISIS level zealotry in fact.
When I dug a little deeper into Lizzy Finnegan I found an interview with her from Reaxxion, and what stood out to me from this interview is that she is very good at weighing her thoughts, making reasonable and sound judgements, and not lashing out at anyone or anything she disagrees with.
After reading this interview and reading a selection of her past articles, I would be shocked to discover that she fabricated her sources in order to defame and destroy SC.
If those articles, as you guys say, have libel, defamation, doxing, etc...
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
You have and other people have said this and I agree. At this point CR has to realize the DS and his band of supporters aren't going to stop. He has enough evidence to support legal proceedings and at this point if he fails to do anything, at a minimum put a gag order on DS, then I am going to have to agree with you that there is something CIG/CR is hiding.
Right now I think it better to wait a week or so (reasonable amount of time for a lawyer to go over available information and make a decision) and see what if anything happens from the CIG/CR camp.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I purchased the $275 pack over a year ago. At that time I could walk around the hanger and inside my Constellation. Over a year later, I can walk around the hanger and inside my Consellation. NUFF SAID....millions and millions of dollars in kickstarter and Founder Packages and thats all Chris Roberts has provided. A year from now it will be the same.
If people keep going after independent developers like this we're just going to end up with only EA mass produced crap. Huge fan of Wing Commander and Chris Roberts, but I won't crowdfund anything. Have bought hundreds of games over the years, and a lot of them charged full price and delivered junk either broken and buggy or not what was described in the hype. If they finish it I will buy it, but paying in advance although it can be a good thing, seems to be easily abused (not saying that's what happened here).
We have a bunch of angry x-employees that suddenly have a platform, a man who has proven time and time again that he is willing to anything to stay in the spotlight (and is a self proclaimed troll) and a magazine that does what they do... try to maximize profits by increasing the nukber of readers. On the flip side we have a company that is lead by a man known for not being the best self moderation and sticking to plans and bugets...
The truth... Most likely sit somewhere in the middle.
But asking Roberts to put his numbers up are about as dumb as asking the escapist to put their transcripts up(even if they are annonymized)... It just does not happen.
And in the end... We all just like to play in space.
I am not so sure. The issue with the article is whether the sources were properly verified (i.e. are they actually former employees?) If the article is libellous a retraction will be requested (in a letter from CIGs solicitor with implied or explicit threats of further action). We can perhaps gauge a degree of truth from whether the article is retracted or not.
Then we come to the point of... if they are who they say they are, are they just disgruntled employees? This is a largely mute point as they are in a position to provide a first hand account, and they have safety in numbers.
Of course this is Kickstarter so there is no legal right for funders to request numbers, so it is of no benefit to Roberts to disclose the same. So this I agree with. We will not see any evidential justification from CIG of their proper management of funds. Rightly so, the law is wrong, not CIG.
Well CR's partner is a lawyer, so we know they at least have legal representation. It should be interesting to see where it goes. The problem is the anonymous people. Even if they aren't anonymous, the things that they are saying about the company would indicate an environment that is an HR nightmare. If it's true, then there are 261 people working under these conditions. This is what I find hard to believe. In a country that is so focused on litigation, why the hell would 261 people stick around when there is money in the coffers that they could easily get their hands on with a simple lawsuit & settlement?
One could be excused for wondering if the reddit article author has anything to gain from purposely controlling the narrative in his response, and oh look, he's a very active grey market trader. I'm sure he doesn't want anything happening to his little coat-tailing enterprise.
Who says it is faux-journalism? Maybe what they posted is correct, maybe Roberts is ripping everyone off. We are not talking about some small amount of money here but over 90 million dollars. If this was an actual business he would have stockholders to account to, well he has donors to his project to answer to.
I don't think this is a black or white issue. They might both be correct (the article and Roberts). Roberts might genuinely not be ripping people off, at least not intentionally, but that doesn't mean the project is being managed particularly well or that money isn't running out.
$90 million is a lot. But money gets spent. He has 4 distributed teams and over 200 employees. Money is getting spent one way or the other. Labor costs, benefits, taxes, capital, work space, incidentals, etc etc etc. This is a big project and it's not cheap. So it could very well be both things. A massive project scope that's running into hurdles with dwindling funds AND a very real tangible effort to produce what was promised.
So in Robert's eyes (and obviously many of his supporters) it's not a rip off or fraud. Work is being done. The critics keep asking how much work, how close to having a game are we, and how are the funds? There may be some outliers who actually want the game to fail so that they can enjoy some schadenfreude, but I think most of us actually want to see this game succeed. The problem is that we also know that expectations need to be tempered and that sometimes people need to face reality. The unfortunate reality of a huge game with many potential pitfalls and limited funds - the outcome is all too common and we fear that we're not going to get the game that was promised.
Last thing I want to add is that Roberts is clearly not holding it together. His response to this whole mess has been pathetic. Did he not hire a single PR/Communications person who could guide him so he doesn't write aggressive 5 page long rebuttals? He is unhinged and he needs to calm his tits. A calm leader is a good leader. Demonstrate that you have control of yourself and people will be more likely to believe that you have control of your project. There's more important work to be done than bicker with internet trolls, the escapist magazine, and any ensuing fall out. When he engages with these groups, it only reinforces people's belief that the project is mismanaged and that there is no substance to back the words.
If one could try to analyzed the current situation regarding the beloved SC, CR and CIG, and their current predicament where they're being sieged by 'allegations' by some individuals.
Lets review some facts:
SC, crowd funding starts on Oct 2012, ongoing. Latest figure over $90 millions.
Current project status Oct 2015: No release date. No Beta release. Rumored to be 2017.
From these 2 facts alone, one could understand why certain individuals may be 'upset'. If one as a developer/designer has acceesed to millions of funds and he could determine the project goals, deliverables, contents, he could say that he is in a dreamland. That said, if that same person fails consistently in deliveries of the promised that he had made (not others), where he has full controls of resource and projects, it would be an 'understatement' to say that the whole project is in 'trouble'.
Some things that some people need to realize:
If one say that the project has enough fund to be able deliver the promise (crowd funding goals achieved).
Why would the same project sell future feature to something that has not been released? (Ships).
Company only does this if it is in financial trouble, and they need more funds to deliver the primary product. I would not say, that they do this to squeze easy money out of fans. Nope. They will do this after the product is released. Why? 1. It will prolong the hype and interest of the product (why do this if you have no product and the hype is high? makes no sense, business wise. It will increase the responsibility, because now you have more things u need to accomplish and yet you have no product ready in the market) 2. To create another source of revenue from the same product (notice the trends, DLCs, expansion, and sequel).
You make some fantastic points.
If the coffers are getting low and they are selling ships now to produce ships sold long ago- We are into 'ponzi scheme' territory.
The problem with many is the same thing that happens with problem gamblers or folks who get caught up in a con. Once you're in so deep you will lie to yourself- Just one more hand of card and I could be back to good- Just another $1000 to the Nigerian who said I would get 10 Million since ive already given him $20K.
Not really 'ponzi scheme' per se, because its a crowdfunding, unless CR and CGI failed to deliver anything. Since they already granted early access to some people to a limited content, they could always say that its a 'work in progress'. They build something, just not what everyone is expecting, and certainly not in the time frame of what many people would consider reasonably achievable.
Nevertheless, these whole issues of mudslinging between CR/CGI and DS, and some magazines, will not die out. Its the only thing that any of them can do:
If CR/CGI wanted to, they have the option to come clean with their backers and show them what they have been doing with the money (done, problem solved, no more hush-hush and badmouthing the company). Some people defended them by saying they don't have to. They are correct, they don't have to, they have no legal obligations to do so, publicly. The fact that choose not to, when they have the option to do so, only reinforce the speculations that their project is NOT doing 'well'.
DS, or some other magazine claimed that they received info from former ex-employee and refuses to disclose the info, of course, are ammos for people to question their credibility. if one remembers Jon Snowden, and his current whereabouts right now, one would surely understand the reason. Nevertheless, publishing an article or claims lacking solid eveidence is ground for lawsuits.They may be 'fishing'.
I don't think CR/CGI will file lawsuit for damages against DS/magazines, because:
first of all, they have no product or services to sell. You could not sue for drop of sales when you have not started selling anything. What some people failed to notice is that, currently CR/CGI are selling 'promise' based on their 'good will'.
Secondly, even after DS/magazines ranting about CR/CGI, they still received substancial crowdfunding money.
Thirdly, it will be hard to show that what DS/magazine said is all false fabrications: they have show to public/court that they are untrue. To quote Jason Evangelho, the contributors to the Forbes article:"You don't have to take the comments and allegations as fact,
obviously, but I find no reason to believe this was some elaborate
fabrication, either".
People see that there are smokes coming out of CR/CGI, but they have not seen the fire. CR/CGI are hiding the fire, but they could not prevent people from seing the smokes. If CR/CGI annouce the beta date, then perhaps this will go away.
And please people, this the internet, people getting famous here all have 'ulterior' motives. People are getting 'benefits' being famous in the internet. But thats beside the point. If they saw a smoke they will scream 'fire', be it real fire or not.
You don't know shit about journalism. You will never see an article about what's going on inside any company were it not for the use of anonymous sources. Not ever. Demanding names attached to the employees is demanding they never work in their industry again. That's why people use them and that's why people accept their use. The only question is did you feel Lizzy F had any credibility before this.
Kind of stupid copying word for word the reviews that are on Glassdoor wouldn't you say? The reviews on Glassdoor are older than the article.
Here's some professional journalism for you, kind of counters your statements just a little.
What are your sources that this is what Lizzy F did? She says in her article the employees reached out, that she knows their names. This is nothing, unless you want to argue that people who will talk about their employers to a journalist won't also say the same things on Glass Door.
Well the evidence shows that she did, all we have is her word in her article saying these employees reached out.
Or maybe she's been taken for a ride?
Kind of a coincidence, weird and fucked up all at the same time.
Do you not think that if it were true, then all RSI/CiG's legal team would need to do is shoot of a letter to redact the article or be faced with a lawsuit, and this whole thing would be over and done with. That is the way the big boys do it when situations like this arise. Not only would that take care of this matter, but it would lend a whole mess of credibility to RSI/CiG that, at this point, it may still not deserve. That is the way the big boys do it when situations like this arise. Their lack of action in this regard speaks volume in and of itself.
"I personally do not consider a space sim to be the type of game I would typically turn to, and therefore asked a source whether such pricing is typical for unlocking in-game material."
No, no it is not.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Clickbait trash journalism at it's finest. A good healthy dose of conflict of interest when you see all of the people that are buddies around the editor and writer of the article.
One could be excused for wondering if the reddit article author has anything to gain from purposely controlling the narrative in his response, and oh look, he's a very active grey market trader. I'm sure he doesn't want anything happening to his little coat-tailing enterprise.
Clickbait trash journalism at it's finest. A good healthy dose of conflict of interest when you see all of the people that are buddies around the editor and writer of the article.
Clickbait trash journalism at it's finest. A good healthy dose of conflict of interest when you see all of the people that are buddies around the editor and writer of the article.
I agree with your assessment, but I don't think it makes Lizzy's article any less of a pile of garbage. I really hate the entire article and I'll add again that I'm not a Star Citizen backer nor do I intend to buy the game. I just hate this type of hit piece "reporting". There is no upside to rewarding gossip journalism. Of all the ways to try and expose impropriety, that is the worst way to do it.
I will not deny that I consider it to be click-bait. An article on the likelihood of SC ever achieving its goals might be pertinent (in terms of the overall role of KS); but referencing some ex-employees (maybe, I do not know) in rubbishing the firm is a bit trashy.
Comments
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Then two things will happen:
- Chris Roberts takes these people to courts and prove he is right and shuts the fck up to everyone bad mouthing the project with cold hard facts and truths
- Chris Roberts writes fierce blog posts and uses just words to defend himself, but shows no concrete proofs or facts to back his claim... in other words, he either cant prove his side or doesnt want the smoke to show the fire...
So, which of this is it ?
Me thinks where there is smoke, there is fire... and its better for Chris Roberts to let you think there is only smoke... than to show the full scale fire that is going on at CIG.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Where is the moderation?
Hang on, you barely read beyond the first sentence did you? You have no idea what this thread is about
If you're a game developer and you wish to continue working in the industry, then you don't sit in front of a journalist and say "Oh, sure, use my real name in your article where I give you the inside dirt on the company that I just left". The reason for this is that they'll never work in the industry again. No company in their right mind would hire a developer that has shown a willingness to give inside information to a reporter, no matter how well that company is doing internally.
The real question here is "Is this journalist credible?". Has the journalist who put forth this article written anything before? Are they well known for good journalism and credibility? Are there any complaints against them from sources claiming they took their words out of context or contorted them?
I clicked on the author's name on the The Escapist article and discovered through the associated link that she has been a journalist with them since March of 2015 and has written dozens of articles. The only complaints I could find against this journalist were complaints in the comments section of the articles where she writes about SC. The fans of this game border on ISIS level zealotry in fact.
When I dug a little deeper into Lizzy Finnegan I found an interview with her from Reaxxion, and what stood out to me from this interview is that she is very good at weighing her thoughts, making reasonable and sound judgements, and not lashing out at anyone or anything she disagrees with.
After reading this interview and reading a selection of her past articles, I would be shocked to discover that she fabricated her sources in order to defame and destroy SC.
Right now I think it better to wait a week or so (reasonable amount of time for a lawyer to go over available information and make a decision) and see what if anything happens from the CIG/CR camp.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
At that time I could walk around the hanger and inside my Constellation.
Over a year later, I can walk around the hanger and inside my Consellation.
NUFF SAID....millions and millions of dollars in kickstarter and Founder Packages and thats all Chris Roberts has provided.
A year from now it will be the same.
Huge fan of Wing Commander and Chris Roberts, but I won't crowdfund anything.
Have bought hundreds of games over the years, and a lot of them charged full price and delivered junk either broken and buggy or not what was described in the hype.
If they finish it I will buy it, but paying in advance although it can be a good thing, seems to be easily abused (not saying that's what happened here).
Well CR's partner is a lawyer, so we know they at least have legal representation. It should be interesting to see where it goes. The problem is the anonymous people. Even if they aren't anonymous, the things that they are saying about the company would indicate an environment that is an HR nightmare. If it's true, then there are 261 people working under these conditions. This is what I find hard to believe. In a country that is so focused on litigation, why the hell would 261 people stick around when there is money in the coffers that they could easily get their hands on with a simple lawsuit & settlement?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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$90 million is a lot. But money gets spent. He has 4 distributed teams and over 200 employees. Money is getting spent one way or the other. Labor costs, benefits, taxes, capital, work space, incidentals, etc etc etc. This is a big project and it's not cheap. So it could very well be both things. A massive project scope that's running into hurdles with dwindling funds AND a very real tangible effort to produce what was promised.
So in Robert's eyes (and obviously many of his supporters) it's not a rip off or fraud. Work is being done. The critics keep asking how much work, how close to having a game are we, and how are the funds? There may be some outliers who actually want the game to fail so that they can enjoy some schadenfreude, but I think most of us actually want to see this game succeed. The problem is that we also know that expectations need to be tempered and that sometimes people need to face reality. The unfortunate reality of a huge game with many potential pitfalls and limited funds - the outcome is all too common and we fear that we're not going to get the game that was promised.
Last thing I want to add is that Roberts is clearly not holding it together. His response to this whole mess has been pathetic. Did he not hire a single PR/Communications person who could guide him so he doesn't write aggressive 5 page long rebuttals? He is unhinged and he needs to calm his tits. A calm leader is a good leader. Demonstrate that you have control of yourself and people will be more likely to believe that you have control of your project. There's more important work to be done than bicker with internet trolls, the escapist magazine, and any ensuing fall out. When he engages with these groups, it only reinforces people's belief that the project is mismanaged and that there is no substance to back the words.
Nevertheless, these whole issues of mudslinging between CR/CGI and DS, and some magazines, will not die out. Its the only thing that any of them can do:
- If CR/CGI wanted to, they have the option to come clean with their backers and show them what they have been doing with the money (done, problem solved, no more hush-hush and badmouthing the company). Some people defended them by saying they don't have to. They are correct, they don't have to, they have no legal obligations to do so, publicly. The fact that choose not to, when they have the option to do so, only reinforce the speculations that their project is NOT doing 'well'.
- DS, or some other magazine claimed that they received info from former ex-employee and refuses to disclose the info, of course, are ammos for people to question their credibility. if one remembers Jon Snowden, and his current whereabouts right now, one would surely understand the reason. Nevertheless, publishing an article or claims lacking solid eveidence is ground for lawsuits.They may be 'fishing'.
I don't think CR/CGI will file lawsuit for damages against DS/magazines, because:People see that there are smokes coming out of CR/CGI, but they have not seen the fire. CR/CGI are hiding the fire, but they could not prevent people from seing the smokes. If CR/CGI annouce the beta date, then perhaps this will go away.
And please people, this the internet, people getting famous here all have 'ulterior' motives. People are getting 'benefits' being famous in the internet. But thats beside the point. If they saw a smoke they will scream 'fire', be it real fire or not.
Give it a break already
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
No, no it is not.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Life IS Feudal
I think it is misrepresented.