I've following this issue and there is one thing I don't quite understand.
Articles like this always seem to be onesided and dismiss the other side arguments.
Consider this. If things are that bad, then why other CIG developers support CR? They've been doing interviews and sharing their opinion regarding the issue. They've posted comments on the website.
Check the Thomas Hennessy interview for instance.
http://imperialnews.network/2015/10/innside-cig-thomas-hennessy/
And one other thing. Why the focus on Sandi when she has literally no involvement in the development side? She is head of marketing and if anything, the people under her management are consumer service people. I never saw her involved in the development side. Based on what we know, she doesn't take part of any dev meetings All those other areas are under other people management.
I don't get it.
Please, I'm not defending CIG. Just stating that
I think there are valid arguments in both sides. And due to this, in the end of the day you shouldn't believe one is right or wrong without evidence to back it up. Up until now what we have are opinions.
Thing is, we really don't know.
Imagine that you're working at CIG and you and everyone around you is unhappy. Why do you stay? It seems that we forget that CIG has more than 200 people working on the project and for some reason, most decide stay.
And why did they decide to open a new studio this year if money is such a big issue?
Red Thomas has shared his opinion. But I see a problem in it. He claims Mayberry left because he was unhappy. So, have you talked with him?
Can we get some actual evidence please?
The way I see it, right now we have CIG workers sharing their opinion in a non anonymous way.
And we have sources stating the contrary.
Quite an intelligent post.
Personally the writer lost me when he started mentioning confidential communications with his friends inside the company, either current or previous. Two reasons, One: anyone can claim to talk to someone without the burden of proof, insiders, people in the know, Jesus, their neighbor's dog, etc. Two: If he has actually spoken to people inside who are disillusioned and angry about the company but aren't willing to state it publicly themselves, I can only assume these type of employees are the one's we've all come across at our jobs at one time or another. To wit, bellyaching assholes who are happy to complain and foment revolution in the break rooms of the company but when it comes to actually standing up to a person in a position of authority to right the wrongs they so happily instigate against, they are nowhere to be found. Just a bunch of loudmouthed moral cowards unwilling to actually stand up for their own rights, or those of others.
In Resume Writing 101, one of the first things they tell you is 'Don't speak poorly of your old employment!'
You do understand that right? In a world where your social media posts can get scanned by folks looking to hire you, you're taking a big risk by going public. The gaming business is relatively small, so that sort of thing can easily get out.
The folks I know who worked with (and disliked) Roberts 20 years ago aren't interested in making public pronouncements. For that very same reason.
Like there are no bad and incompetent bosses out there.......
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
They gave him 24 hours mate. Then only added his comments once the shite had hit the fan. 261 employees and only 9 (they say) are moaning. Damn thats a good HR record tbh. Check the moaner % on the web at the moment. And they havent even seen the game for the most part, let alone have any evidence to back their claims.
For gods sake let CR at least have a GO at making this game. To do otherwise makes Smart and all the other naysayers a self fulfilling prophecy. The funds are committed. The wheel is spinning. Let the ball fall where it may now.. At least then there is a chance of a positive outcome.
It's still 24 hours and they're not obligated to do so. Otherwise I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just not a fan of people trying to play the narrative. They did A, B and C and yes, mistakes were made but that doesn't make what was said irrelevant despite what some people want to claim. Anyway, it's down to Roberts now to put everybody's money where his mouth is.
Well, it is irrelevent if untrue - and there is no firm evidence yet to a level that proves malfeasance. Just a bunch of whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives. Not saying it wont pan out that there have been failures or issues though - I just don't think we yet know.
Given the circumstances I don't think CR will come out of this without deep credibility wounds, even if in reality 'innocent' or just inefficient in terms of programme management.
Thus, if he were to stop taking new crowdfunding, and seek a professional financial backer, voluntarily in effect diluting his potential profits, that would demonstrate where his real motives and commitments are. Maybe that would be acceptable to his pride, satisfy the naysayers and yet let his vision get delivered.
Continuing the virtual ship marketing / sales treadmill though.. I think that sends completely the wrong message in the face of public opinion - even if that opinion is currently based on FUD.
So, you really do need to sort out the cost of the development from the continuing support of a game. That's a very valid point.
Well ... i did ...if i shall quote myself:
"And if you check out the numbers its 63 M$ for the development phase of WoW ...."
The original statement of MadFrenchie was : "Skyrim and World of Warcraft were all completed on roughly half the budget of SC within roughly the next 6 months (if development had begun at the same time as SC). "
That would be 45 million ("half the budget of SC") for WoW and Skyrim, compared to the official numbers of 63 M$ (WoW) and 88 M$ (Skyrim).
If 18 million bucks or 43 millon bucks difference is peanuts to you, you must be a billionaire.
And the official development time of WoW was between 4 and 5 years (see links given). Add 4 to 5 years to October 2012 (=SC Kickstarter) and you get ..... do the math.
So, you really do need to sort out the cost of the development from the continuing support of a game. That's a very valid point.
Well ... i did ...if i shall quote myself:
"And if you check out the numbers its 63 M$ for the development phase of WoW ...."
The original statement of MadFrenchie was : "Skyrim and World of Warcraft were all completed on roughly half the budget of SC within roughly the next 6 months (if development had begun at the same time as SC). "
That would be 45 million ("half the budget of SC") for WoW and Skyrim, compared to the official numbers of 63 M$ (WoW) and 88 M$ (Skyrim).
If 18 million bucks or 43 millon bucks difference is peanuts to you, you must be a billionaire.
And the official development time of WoW was between 4 and 5 years (see links given). Add 4 to 5 years to October 2012 (=SC Kickstarter) and you get ..... do the math.
Have fun
It has already been stated by CR that work started on SC before the KS started, so clinging to October 2012 as the start of development is a bit silly.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Except for the 2011 date which got bandied about when folks wanted it to argue some point.
And, Digital Anvil. No games produced in-house over 4 years of work. It took another three years for MS to get the things finished on Freelancer even with some features left out. So, what, 2020 for the full release?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I've following this issue and there is one thing I don't quite understand.
Articles like this always seem to be onesided and dismiss the other side arguments.
Consider this. If things are that bad, then why other CIG developers support CR? They've been doing interviews and sharing their opinion regarding the issue. They've posted comments on the website.
Check the Thomas Hennessy interview for instance.
http://imperialnews.network/2015/10/innside-cig-thomas-hennessy/
And one other thing. Why the focus on Sandi when she has literally no involvement in the development side? She is head of marketing and if anything, the people under her management are consumer service people. I never saw her involved in the development side. Based on what we know, she doesn't take part of any dev meetings All those other areas are under other people management.
I don't get it.
Please, I'm not defending CIG. Just stating that
I think there are valid arguments in both sides. And due to this, in the end of the day you shouldn't believe one is right or wrong without evidence to back it up. Up until now what we have are opinions.
Thing is, we really don't know.
Imagine that you're working at CIG and you and everyone around you is unhappy. Why do you stay? It seems that we forget that CIG has more than 200 people working on the project and for some reason, most decide stay.
And why did they decide to open a new studio this year if money is such a big issue?
Red Thomas has shared his opinion. But I see a problem in it. He claims Mayberry left because he was unhappy. So, have you talked with him?
Can we get some actual evidence please?
The way I see it, right now we have CIG workers sharing their opinion in a non anonymous way.
And we have sources stating the contrary.
Quite an intelligent post.
Personally the writer lost me when he started mentioning confidential communications with his friends inside the company, either current or previous. Two reasons, One: anyone can claim to talk to someone without the burden of proof, insiders, people in the know, Jesus, their neighbor's dog, etc. Two: If he has actually spoken to people inside who are disillusioned and angry about the company but aren't willing to state it publicly themselves, I can only assume these type of employees are the one's we've all come across at our jobs at one time or another. To wit, bellyaching assholes who are happy to complain and foment revolution in the break rooms of the company but when it comes to actually standing up to a person in a position of authority to right the wrongs they so happily instigate against, they are nowhere to be found. Just a bunch of loudmouthed moral cowards unwilling to actually stand up for their own rights, or those of others.
You do understand that right? In a world where your social media posts can get scanned by folks looking to hire you, you're taking a big risk by going public. The gaming business is relatively small, so that sort of thing can easily get out.
People obviously don't understand the consequences of writing stuff on social media, some people got fired after posting stuff on social media, which is explained in the youtube video.
In the face of all this criticism I have seen many supporters come out and try to damn the media, divert the blame to DS, attempt to shut down threads such as this, create youtube rants to set the hate train onto journalists covering the story, or try to downplay the situation in other ways such as saying "there are two sides to the story" etc.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
It has already been stated by CR that work started on SC before the KS started, so clinging to October 2012 as the start of development is a bit silly.
Even if that is the case, it really doesn't negate the point. As most of that would be brainstorming and proof of concept. That is the beginning stage of a project/franchise. All simply for a tech show for a kickstarter. That's the part many leave out. The real work wouldn't begin until after it was funded.
Again I'll use the example of Fallout 4, which was began in 2008, a game smaller in game-play scope. With pre existing lore as well as foundation, took nearly 7 years to complete. How far along do you think it was 3-4 years in?
It can take a long time to get from concept to the start of development.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Actually there have been a few come out and say everything is fine. That doesn't mean the disgrunted employees are lying though.. it just means they had different experiences with the same company.
The drama surrounding Star Citizen continues and spins even more wildly as cease and desist letters fly. Red Thomas breaks a long hiatus from writing about the game to chime in.
See always said that MMORPG.COM was full of trolls, this includes the writers as well..
Give it a rest already.... This forum makes me sick, and I see why alot of people are not coming here as much, I will do the same if you people keep this up... SBFord, grow up...
@Darkcrystal ; You realize, I'm sure, that I did not write this article. I made the news post about our feature writer @Red_Thomas who is the article's author.
In the face of all this criticism I have seen many supporters come out and try to damn the media, divert the blame to DS, attempt to shut down threads such as this, create youtube rants to set the hate train onto journalists covering the story, or try to downplay the situation in other ways such as saying "there are two sides to the story" etc.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
To be fair, there was a series of posts showing many different devs saying just that. It just had no circulation in these conversations.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In the face of all this criticism I have seen many supporters come out and try to damn the media, divert the blame to DS, attempt to shut down threads such as this, create youtube rants to set the hate train onto journalists covering the story, or try to downplay the situation in other ways such as saying "there are two sides to the story" etc.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
To be fair, there was a series of posts showing many different devs saying just that. It just got no circulation in these conversations.
Once again you skirt issues and produce half-truths. I dont see anywhere on that link of yours where it is stated that hitting a stretch goal will delay the game another year. **snip **
Can you please link us to the chairman letter that states: "hitting the next stretch goal will delay the game a year or two"?
Ad a) Maybe you did not see the link because I did not make the statement "...hitting a stretch goal will delay the game..." ?
Ad b) Maybe I do not link to a chairman letter because Chris Roberts never said "hitting the next stretch goal will delay the game a year or two" and i never claimed there was such a statement ?
What i DID say was that of the 100 % of the backers who voted with their wallets to increase the scope of the game 99,99 % of the backers obviously still support the game after two-and-a-half years because only 0.01 % of these backers (under 2000) wanted a refund. And it IS easy to get a refund ... you only have to state a reason in a second e-mail and stay civil in your communication with CIG.
Yes, it takes time to get the core mechanics of SC right, especially the FPS module and its interfaces to all the other modules. Yes, it takes longer than expected (but still very much within the expected window of 4-5 years development time) - which is not unusual for a project where you are bleeding on the cutting edge of what is possible in computer gaming. But once all the core mechanics are in place, adding content and stretch goal targets is a protracted but comparatively easy task.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Then you should more closely read the SC threads here on MMORPG, because statements of several NAMED and ACTIVE CIG employees (I think 7 of them) - not related to the director - have been posted here. You can also find them in the DevTracker section of the official SC game forum e.g.
They categorically stated that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great e.g.
"This is so much better than I expected.
This is a place
for gamers, and when I say that, I mean people that come READY TO PLAY.
The work is hard, the hours are long, and the rewards... well, the
rewards are history in the making."
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Then you should more closely read the SC threads here on MMORPG, because statements of several NAMED and ACTIVE CIG employees (I think 7 of them) - not related to the director - have been posted here. You can also find them in the DevTracker section of the official SC game forum e.g.
They categorically stated that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great e.g.
"This is so much better than I expected.
This is a place
for gamers, and when I say that, I mean people that come READY TO PLAY.
The work is hard, the hours are long, and the rewards... well, the
rewards are history in the making."
Have fun
It is like reading the bible. You open the SC forum and the truth is revealed.
I don't want to be rude Erillion but I've never seen you post any concerns on the game so why should I or anyone believe everything is going "fine" or according to plans when it isn't?
I don't believe everything is a catastrophe but certainly not everything going according to plans.
It has already been stated by CR that work started on SC before the KS started, so clinging to October 2012 as the start of development is a bit silly.
Even if that is the case, it really doesn't negate the point. As most of that would be brainstorming and proof of concept. That is the beginning stage of a project/franchise. All simply for a tech show for a kickstarter. That's the part many leave out. The real work wouldn't begin until after it was funded.
Again I'll use the example of Fallout 4, which was began in 2008, a game smaller in game-play scope. With pre existing lore as well as foundation, took nearly 7 years to complete. How far along do you think it was 3-4 years in?
It can take a long time to get from concept to the start of development.
Sure, but look at the KS campaign video, around the 32 second mark, see what it says?
If most of that was just brainstorming and proof of concept, where did all the actual game asset's that were rendered in real time, in engine, come from?
Around 6.40 in the video, it shows pretty much what you get/see now when you are in the hangar in game.
Again, where did it all come from if they were not working on the game prior to the KS campaign?
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
perish the thought. as of october of this being written Star citizen has been in development(officially) since 2012. That is 3/Three years. For the scope of what this game is to be
This is the most important aspect of this to me. Lets take one example FO4. They started work on it the year fallout 3 released. Basically Nov or Dec of 08. They just now started showing the game, they just now announced it, and they are releasing it this year. That is almost 7 years give or take a few months. That is with preexisting lore as well as essentially the architecture to draw from and create a narrative in. And it's a single-player game with one game-play focus.
Expecting something promising more than that within 3 years is a bit much. I'm just not sure why people would even remotely expect it to be in working order at this point.
Development started a year before October of 12, according to CR himself. It's been 4 years of development (which was already mentioned in this thread before. Not sure why this has to be rehashed in the same thread).
Well, it is irrelevent if untrue - and there is no firm evidence yet to a level that proves malfeasance. Just a bunch of whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives. Not saying it wont pan out that there have been failures or issues though - I just don't think we yet know.
Given the circumstances I don't think CR will come out of this without deep credibility wounds, even if in reality 'innocent' or just inefficient in terms of programme management.
Thus, if he were to stop taking new crowdfunding, and seek a professional financial backer, voluntarily in effect diluting his potential profits, that would demonstrate where his real motives and commitments are. Maybe that would be acceptable to his pride, satisfy the naysayers and yet let his vision get delivered.
Continuing the virtual ship marketing / sales treadmill though.. I think that sends completely the wrong message in the face of public opinion - even if that opinion is currently based on FUD.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I certainly wouldn't label the claims as "whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives". What exactly are these ulterior motives? You're saying conclusions shouldn't be reached in absence of the full facts while then proceeding to judge these people without all the facts... Let's hope you don't have jury duty any time soon
I've following this issue and there is one thing I don't quite understand.
Articles like this always seem to be onesided and dismiss the other side arguments.
Consider this. If things are that bad, then why other CIG developers support CR? They've been doing interviews and sharing their opinion regarding the issue. They've posted comments on the website.
Check the Thomas Hennessy interview for instance.
http://imperialnews.network/2015/10/innside-cig-thomas-hennessy/
And one other thing. Why the focus on Sandi when she has literally no involvement in the development side? She is head of marketing and if anything, the people under her management are consumer service people. I never saw her involved in the development side. Based on what we know, she doesn't take part of any dev meetings All those other areas are under other people management.
I don't get it.
Please, I'm not defending CIG. Just stating that
I think there are valid arguments in both sides. And due to this, in the end of the day you shouldn't believe one is right or wrong without evidence to back it up. Up until now what we have are opinions.
Thing is, we really don't know.
Imagine that you're working at CIG and you and everyone around you is unhappy. Why do you stay? It seems that we forget that CIG has more than 200 people working on the project and for some reason, most decide stay.
And why did they decide to open a new studio this year if money is such a big issue?
Red Thomas has shared his opinion. But I see a problem in it. He claims Mayberry left because he was unhappy. So, have you talked with him?
Can we get some actual evidence please?
The way I see it, right now we have CIG workers sharing their opinion in a non anonymous way.
And we have sources stating the contrary.
Quite an intelligent post.
Personally the writer lost me when he started mentioning confidential communications with his friends inside the company, either current or previous. Two reasons, One: anyone can claim to talk to someone without the burden of proof, insiders, people in the know, Jesus, their neighbor's dog, etc. Two: If he has actually spoken to people inside who are disillusioned and angry about the company but aren't willing to state it publicly themselves, I can only assume these type of employees are the one's we've all come across at our jobs at one time or another. To wit, bellyaching assholes who are happy to complain and foment revolution in the break rooms of the company but when it comes to actually standing up to a person in a position of authority to right the wrongs they so happily instigate against, they are nowhere to be found. Just a bunch of loudmouthed moral cowards unwilling to actually stand up for their own rights, or those of others.
In Resume Writing 101, one of the first things they tell you is 'Don't speak poorly of your old employment!'
You do understand that right? In a world where your social media posts can get scanned by folks looking to hire you, you're taking a big risk by going public. The gaming business is relatively small, so that sort of thing can easily get out.
The folks I know who worked with (and disliked) Roberts 20 years ago aren't interested in making public pronouncements. For that very same reason.
Like there are no bad and incompetent bosses out there.......
So these moral cowards just keep their heads down and nothing ever changes. Brilliant strategy.
Yeah there are bad and incompetent bosses out there, thanks to these kinds of scaredy cats they'll never get called out for their imperfections.
Separate from this issue, calling folks moral cowards because they fear reprisal for whistleblowing is a bit arrogant.
If you don't think there'a a ton of instances where employees tried to speak out only to have management/the boss brow beat them into submission using their own position, you're fooling yourself. The hesitancy doesn't come from fear of reprisal from a boss proven incompetent; it comes from fear of reprisal from a boss that successfully suppresses the real issues the bosses themselves have created for their employees.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Then you should more closely read the SC threads here on MMORPG, because statements of several NAMED and ACTIVE CIG employees (I think 7 of them) - not related to the director - have been posted here. You can also find them in the DevTracker section of the official SC game forum e.g.
They categorically stated that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great e.g.
"This is so much better than I expected.
This is a place
for gamers, and when I say that, I mean people that come READY TO PLAY.
The work is hard, the hours are long, and the rewards... well, the
rewards are history in the making."
Have fun
Can you point us to any sources that are not part of "robertspaceindustries"..... Like maybe current/former employees reaching out to the media to back the company?
Btw, that post you linked didn't "categorically stated that all these issues are untrue".
Yes, it takes time to get the core mechanics of SC right, especially the FPS module and its interfaces to all the other modules. Yes, it takes longer than expected (but still very much within the expected window of 4-5 years development time) - which is not unusual for a project where you are bleeding on the cutting edge of what is possible in computer gaming. But once all the core mechanics are in place, adding content and stretch goal targets is a protracted but comparatively easy task.
Have fun
False. It's been 4 years of development already. Barring a a CitizenCon that reveals a completed FPS module, the first iteration of the persistent universe (ready for testing), most of the promised ships created and ready (meaning things like turret hard points and general ship attributes have all been given at least their first pass at balance in-house).... The chances of getting this to a real release point (not some Early Access "release" that's just beta testing by another name) in the next year is pretty damn low.
If all that is revealed at CitizenCon, i'll give the project the benefit of the doubt. Let us not forget that @Red_Thomas saw their development time line a while back with his own eyes, and he noted they were far behind schedule. Call him (and Roberts from 2012) a liar if you like, or stop altering facts to support your argument.
I don't want to be rude Erillion but I've never seen you post any concerns on the game so why should I or anyone believe everything is going "fine" or according to plans when it isn't?
I don't believe everything is a catastrophe but certainly not everything going according to plans.
You may not have seen posts expressing concerns because i have posted for years now on MMORPG.com and some posts with concerns are quite old now (when the Star Citizen campaign was still fresh).
If you use the MMORPG.com search engine you should be able to find some relevant posts. You will especially find posts where i express my displeasure with the rather primitive planned SC crafting system. I am a Star Wars Galaxies veteran, having been a shipwright and droid engineer on Naritus (and later the European servers). That game had a highly innovative crafting system. With hard work you could make a name for yourself as (one of) the best crafters in the game.
I would wish for such a system in SC. The developers decided against it (reason: PvP players HATE to rely on player crafters to supply them with weapons ;-). I voiced my displeasure about this decision (and still do).
And its NOT everything going according to plan in SC. I do not claim such a thing. CIG does not claim such a thing. You see VERY detailed progress reports on the official website. Monthly for all studios (usually 20+ pages). Weekly as video blog. Weekly for the Star Marine FPS module. They are very open in explaining problems that occur. And how they plan to solve those problems. I find that openness refreshing.
Sure, sometimes its frustrating when you hear about delays. However, since the end of 2012 I personally expect(ed) the game (=Persistent Universe) to be officially launched at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017 .... so i am not worried much about speed bumps occuring during the middle of the development period. I certainly do not believe the sky to be falling and that "The End Is Nigh" because of such delays.
You do understand that right? In a world where your social media posts can get scanned by folks looking to hire you, you're taking a big risk by going public. The gaming business is relatively small, so that sort of thing can easily get out.
The folks I know who worked with (and disliked) Roberts 20 years ago aren't interested in making public pronouncements. For that very same reason.
Like there are no bad and incompetent bosses out there.......
So these moral cowards just keep their heads down and nothing ever changes. Brilliant strategy.
Yeah there are bad and incompetent bosses out there, thanks to these kinds of scaredy cats they'll never get called out for their imperfections.
Separate from this issue, calling folks moral cowards because they fear reprisal for whistleblowing is a bit arrogant.
If you don't think there'a a ton of instances where employees tried to speak out only to have management/the boss brow beat them into submission using their own position, you're fooling yourself. The hesitancy doesn't come from fear of reprisal from a boss proven incompetent; it comes from fear of reprisal from a boss that successfully suppresses the real issues the bosses themselves have created for their employees.
I don't think people understand the difference when you talk bad about your boss to friends and family than if you went and spoke about them publicly.
With respect to all those who place the start of SC development at 2011 ... lets agree to disagree. We interpret the available sources differently, some think it means 2011, others (like me) think it means sometime during 2012.
The OFFICIAL start date of Star Citizen development is written on Kickstarter.
Comments
You do understand that right? In a world where your social media posts can get scanned by folks looking to hire you, you're taking a big risk by going public. The gaming business is relatively small, so that sort of thing can easily get out.
The folks I know who worked with (and disliked) Roberts 20 years ago aren't interested in making public pronouncements. For that very same reason.
Like there are no bad and incompetent bosses out there.......
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Given the circumstances I don't think CR will come out of this without deep credibility wounds, even if in reality 'innocent' or just inefficient in terms of programme management.
Thus, if he were to stop taking new crowdfunding, and seek a professional financial backer, voluntarily in effect diluting his potential profits, that would demonstrate where his real motives and commitments are. Maybe that would be acceptable to his pride, satisfy the naysayers and yet let his vision get delivered.
Continuing the virtual ship marketing / sales treadmill though.. I think that sends completely the wrong message in the face of public opinion - even if that opinion is currently based on FUD.
"And if you check out the numbers its 63 M$ for the development phase of WoW ...."
The original statement of MadFrenchie was :
"Skyrim and World of Warcraft were all completed on roughly half the budget of SC within roughly the next 6 months (if development had begun at the same time as SC). "
That would be 45 million ("half the budget of SC") for WoW and Skyrim, compared to the official numbers of 63 M$ (WoW) and 88 M$ (Skyrim).
If 18 million bucks or 43 millon bucks difference is peanuts to you, you must be a billionaire.
And the official development time of WoW was between 4 and 5 years (see links given). Add 4 to 5 years to October 2012 (=SC Kickstarter) and you get ..... do the math.
Have fun
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
And, Digital Anvil. No games produced in-house over 4 years of work. It took another three years for MS to get the things finished on Freelancer even with some features left out. So, what, 2020 for the full release?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Again I'll use the example of Fallout 4, which was began in 2008, a game smaller in game-play scope. With pre existing lore as well as foundation, took nearly 7 years to complete. How far along do you think it was 3-4 years in?
It can take a long time to get from concept to the start of development.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That doesn't mean the disgrunted employees are lying though.. it just means they had different experiences with the same company.
..Cake..
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ad b) Maybe I do not link to a chairman letter because Chris Roberts never said "hitting the next stretch goal will delay the game a year or two" and i never claimed there was such a statement ?
What i DID say was that of the 100 % of the backers who voted with their wallets to increase the scope of the game 99,99 % of the backers obviously still support the game after two-and-a-half years because only 0.01 % of these backers (under 2000) wanted a refund. And it IS easy to get a refund ... you only have to state a reason in a second e-mail and stay civil in your communication with CIG.
Yes, it takes time to get the core mechanics of SC right, especially the FPS module and its interfaces to all the other modules. Yes, it takes longer than expected (but still very much within the expected window of 4-5 years development time) - which is not unusual for a project where you are bleeding on the cutting edge of what is possible in computer gaming. But once all the core mechanics are in place, adding content and stretch goal targets is a protracted but comparatively easy task.
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Then you should more closely read the SC threads here on MMORPG, because statements of several NAMED and ACTIVE CIG employees (I think 7 of them) - not related to the director - have been posted here. You can also find them in the DevTracker section of the official SC game forum e.g.
"A CIG Employee's Perspective"
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5678014/#Comment_5678014
They categorically stated that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great e.g.
"This is so much better than I expected.
This is a place for gamers, and when I say that, I mean people that come READY TO PLAY. The work is hard, the hours are long, and the rewards... well, the rewards are history in the making."
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It is like reading the bible. You open the SC forum and the truth is revealed.
I don't believe everything is a catastrophe but certainly not everything going according to plans.
If most of that was just brainstorming and proof of concept, where did all the actual game asset's that were rendered in real time, in engine, come from?
Around 6.40 in the video, it shows pretty much what you get/see now when you are in the hangar in game.
Again, where did it all come from if they were not working on the game prior to the KS campaign?
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I certainly wouldn't label the claims as "whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives". What exactly are these ulterior motives?
You're saying conclusions shouldn't be reached in absence of the full facts while then proceeding to judge these people without all the facts... Let's hope you don't have jury duty any time soon
If you don't think there'a a ton of instances where employees tried to speak out only to have management/the boss brow beat them into submission using their own position, you're fooling yourself. The hesitancy doesn't come from fear of reprisal from a boss proven incompetent; it comes from fear of reprisal from a boss that successfully suppresses the real issues the bosses themselves have created for their employees.
Btw, that post you linked didn't "categorically stated that all these issues are untrue".
If all that is revealed at CitizenCon, i'll give the project the benefit of the doubt. Let us not forget that @Red_Thomas saw their development time line a while back with his own eyes, and he noted they were far behind schedule. Call him (and Roberts from 2012) a liar if you like, or stop altering facts to support your argument.
You may not have seen posts expressing concerns because i have posted for years now on MMORPG.com and some posts with concerns are quite old now (when the Star Citizen campaign was still fresh).
If you use the MMORPG.com search engine you should be able to find some relevant posts. You will especially find posts where i express my displeasure with the rather primitive planned SC crafting system. I am a Star Wars Galaxies veteran, having been a shipwright and droid engineer on Naritus (and later the European servers). That game had a highly innovative crafting system. With hard work you could make a name for yourself as (one of) the best crafters in the game.
I would wish for such a system in SC. The developers decided against it (reason: PvP players HATE to rely on player crafters to supply them with weapons ;-). I voiced my displeasure about this decision (and still do).
And its NOT everything going according to plan in SC. I do not claim such a thing. CIG does not claim such a thing. You see VERY detailed progress reports on the official website. Monthly for all studios (usually 20+ pages). Weekly as video blog. Weekly for the Star Marine FPS module. They are very open in explaining problems that occur. And how they plan to solve those problems. I find that openness refreshing.
Sure, sometimes its frustrating when you hear about delays. However, since the end of 2012 I personally expect(ed) the game (=Persistent Universe) to be officially launched at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017 .... so i am not worried much about speed bumps occuring during the middle of the development period. I certainly do not believe the sky to be falling and that "The End Is Nigh" because of such delays.
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The OFFICIAL start date of Star Citizen development is written on Kickstarter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/posts/353251
"21. Nov 2012
THANK YOU.
After finally getting a good night’s sleep the team here at Roberts Space Industries would all like to thank you for helping us make history. "
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PS:
Star Citizen is being developed by Cloud Imperium Games. Please check out their homepage:
"Cloud Imperium Games Corporation was founded in April 2012"