Why the hell have only one stat?

Archlyte

There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?

Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature. 

Dattelis

Example of games are good

deniter

Because having two stats confuses casual players and makes them quit, and the company behind the game loses money.

/sarcasm off

Game companies treat us gamers as we were brainless monkeys running after banana. Some games even play themselves so you don't have to use your hands or brains and you can focus on story that is naturally voiced over in case you are illiterate as well.

Akulas

No more int warriors.

Albatroes

ah yes, the good old days of RO. Yeah, Devs do try to control how people play classes in the more recent things. FFXI had a fair bit of versatility in its days (still does I suppose). I guess Archeage has some non conforming to a degree? But in the end people will go with the meta in pretty much any game now-a-days regardless of the degree of versatility you give them. But it also depends on the situation as well. For end game a meta will be followed but not so much for solo etc. I do miss battle clerics from RO though, those were fun.

filmoret

I cant think of 1 mmorpg that is like this.  Shouldn't this thread be in the forums of the game you are talking about since its only 1 game and not all new mmorpg's?

Loke666

Yeah, I miss when stats actually mattered mas well. It added far more possibilities with builds and such. Now it feels like Diablo (1) had more advanced mechanics than most MMOs...

fivoroth

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

Loke666

fivoroth said:

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.

Kyleran

DMKano said:

Loke666 said:

fivoroth said:

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.

As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.

Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.

Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.

I guess DAOC had a bit more flexibility, while it maintained a similar model to EQ, people could and did vary them which impacted your choice of weapons, armor and particularly with hybrid classes, your primary role and abilities.

A Troll Skald with high combat stats spent a lot more time hitting stuff to kill, while other classes such as dwarfs frequently boosted up magic enhancing stats and killed with insta damage spells.

GeezerGamer

You know what?

Is the game fun?

There ya go.

Kaneth

DMKano said:

Loke666 said:

fivoroth said:

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.

As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.

Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.

Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.

It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.

WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well. 

Kaneth

Kyleran said:

DMKano said:

Loke666 said:

fivoroth said:

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.

As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.

Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.

Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.

I guess DAOC had a bit more flexibility, while it maintained a similar model to EQ, people could and did vary them which impacted your choice of weapons, armor and particularly with hybrid classes, your primary role and abilities.

A Troll Skald with high combat stats spent a lot more time hitting stuff to kill, while other classes such as dwarfs frequently boosted up magic enhancing stats and killed with insta damage spells.

I played a pierce hero in DAoC before Lurikeens could be heros. I started it as an experiment and I wound up really enjoying the crap out of it in PvE and RvR. I turned out to be pretty evasive on top of blocking basically everything with the shield. The evade style chain fun to pull off and in RvR the style chain while attacking from behind was pretty devastating on squishier enemies. DAoC had just enough flexibility where you could go off the rails and still get the job done.

nariusseldon

Archlyte said:

There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?

Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature. 

Because you can now focus on even more interesting choices.

Look at D3 ... stacking stat is really not that hard (well, there is some choices of sometimes you need more vit than main stat .. but you can adjust that anyway in paragon level). However, the *real* choice is to manage what set, what legendary power (in gear, in cube) to use and how they synerize with skills.

StanlyStanko

It is the last drops of RPG being wrung-out of this sad shadow of a genre.

filmoret

Yea I think the newer mmo's have done a great job at creating variety in builds.  I think this was another failed attempt at bashing new mmo's.

Archlyte

filmoret said:

Yea I think the newer mmo's have done a great job at creating variety in builds.  I think this was another failed attempt at bashing new mmo's.

The only way I can think of to get that variety is by allowing gear to take the place of the old stat block, but many games do not let you use gear to tailor your character because the individual pieces are tailored to fit a few archetypes, and are generally useless to others. 

I am not talking about specific games because it is specifically this mechanic that I am interested in thinking about. So you can put your donkey away Mr. Quixote, I'm just asking a question. 

Narlh

Since I'll be playing the complete overhaul of SW:TOR for the story it doesn't bother me much that they are throwing all the prime stats out in favor of "Mastery".  But I was sad yesterday trying to get my JK to 60 and I thought of all those credits I'd spent learning how to make so many different lightsaber hilts when soon I'll just be making "Mastery" hilts.  As an old schooler, I love the convoluted stat maze, but I get the point.  These days, make it as simple as can be.  That way the cell phone babies can jump right in.

Wizardry

Pretty simple,developers are getting lazier,i guess because they have got away with it.

More people need to speak out and complain at their developer,do not praise everything they do.

An example has been the use of the word potency.It is also an EASIER way to control and manipulate numbers,that way a developer can mislead you with giant numbers like +200 STR and you think WOW that piece of gear is great but in reality the formulas manipulate  it down to meaningless numbers.

I don't think i have had hardly ever seen numbers matter very much the problem is we cannot ever simulate realism,it will always be a simple math formula.

Example in my fave game if FFXI numbers do mean a LOT but only to a minimal degree.You say wtf did he just say?Well for example INT adds direct damage,so you add a ton of INT.However it uses a sort of ARC formula liek a lot of games ,meaning you could do anywhere from 50-100 dmg,meaning you might see any direct increase with the numbers or you might see a lot.Another direct effect was in their accuracy formulas,adding in say 5 or 10 accuracy does nothing,there is a threshold that has to be crossed ,example 20.What this means is like most games min maxing is always the way to go,you either go all out for accuracy to hit that 20 threshold or don't bother at all.

Another way of manipulating those high numbers is with negative formulas.Example 500 STR might add 250 dmg but if multiplied by a formula that uses a decimal like .05555 BEFORE adding in direct damage,you make that 500 STR almost meaningless.SO you might add 100 str or 500 str and only come out with an extra 2 dmg or 4 dmg.

My point is that  adding in all those numbers is great if they actually mean anything,however most devs know they don't so just simplified the formulas using for example Potency.My opinion is games are better giving us some real cool abilities and combos with other players.Put those abilities on semi long timers because spamming hotbar icons is never fun.

acrobuddy

This is why I miss the skill/point system present in Anarchy Online, so many attributes/skills to spend IP in. Even though the meta was pretty set, most professions had multiple weapons to choose from, and until endgame you usually had to choose wisely were to spend IP during the leveling process. This was definitely true for twink characters who had to calculate every single IP spent.

For leveling it was amazing, having to choose between spending points for a better weapon, armor, implants, or new nano techs, while calculating points from buffs, implants, attribute trickle, perks, armor, and etc. 

Wizardry

I should also point out the obvious because i think many just forget.
Developers know their content,everything is manipulated the way they want,you are NEVER going to be OP unless they want you to.
 Gear and items are a VERY superficial way to attract players and keep them interested.However i would hope most players realize your NEW shiny item is only matched towards the content you are playing,so in reality,our players NEVER improve we always stay on par with the relevant content.

To make a really top notch great game,the systems and spells/abilities need to be so good that player thought and combat interaction could be decided by the player and not by the simple math formulas.

Again pointing at FFXI,they gave us some great ideas but need to be further improved by new developers.Example "properties",use elemental properties and have players adjust during combat interaction.
Example a mob might give a slight tell to it's next attack,it might be a ranged or a crushing or Blunt attack ,or it might be a fire or water spell incoming.So then the players pay attention and react to take less damage.Or perhaps the mob is going into a defensive manouver,not a good time to use your best ability since the damage would be nullified to mere pittance.

Archlyte

I just don't get how it is better to remove that control from players, and to make the characters even less mutable and more flat. 

Rasiem

WoW's fault lol I totally agree.

filmoret

DMKano said:

Archlyte said:

I just don't get how it is better to remove that control from players, and to make the characters even less mutable and more flat. 

Again what games are you talking about???

The games I play have a ton of character customization as far as a stats.

I think he wanted to troll new mmo's using that same old argument but without actually thinking first.

Flyte27

nariusseldon said:

Archlyte said:

There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?

Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature. 

Because you can now focus on even more interesting choices.

Look at D3 ... stacking stat is really not that hard (well, there is some choices of sometimes you need more vit than main stat .. but you can adjust that anyway in paragon level). However, the *real* choice is to manage what set, what legendary power (in gear, in cube) to use and how they synerize with skills.

Yeah and remember the days when there were no sets.  You just had to mix and match from what you found in the game?  The color code was all grey (except for the diablo games).

GeezerGamer

Kaneth said:

DMKano said:

Loke666 said:

fivoroth said:

Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.

I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.

As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.

Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.

Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.

It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.

WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well. 

Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?

Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.

You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.