Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.
Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.
Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.
It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.
WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well.
Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?
Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.
You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.
Sadly when I tried out WoW again a few months ago I found the classes to have been simplified even more. There is no longer the ability to pick talents from multiple different trees. You have to specialize in one thing. It's arguable that once in WoW there was freedom to create unique specs based on talents, but that is no longer the case IMO. I'm sure this is all because of game balance again. Game balance seems to destroy the ability to give players any kind of freedom in a game. The best you get is to be stuck in one role with a little bit of a different flavor. I don't consider being able to switch roles variety. The only thing that saves you is having to level up a another character (which doesn't take very long). They might as well just stick with the basic classes of fighter, mage, thief, cleric.
I prefer less stats and more streamlined stat management. I don't want to be forced to use a calculator for a game just to be efficient. Online calculators, best-in-slot gear, required talents, etc. Also, the more stats, the harder it is to balance.
Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.
Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.
Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.
It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.
WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well.
Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?
Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.
You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.
By the same logic you can't ignore the meta in older games. EQ and the likes of it were not any better.
Also Rift was a superb example of character customisation done right. There was no one forcing you to play a pyromancer. I have played rift and I never felt forced to choose a specific "optimum" build.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.
Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.
Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.
It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.
WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well.
Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?
Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.
You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.
Sadly when I tried out WoW again a few months ago I found the classes to have been simplified even more. There is no longer the ability to pick talents from multiple different trees. You have to specialize in one thing. It's arguable that once in WoW there was freedom to create unique specs based on talents, but that is no longer the case IMO. I'm sure this is all because of game balance again. Game balance seems to destroy the ability to give players any kind of freedom in a game. The best you get is to be stuck in one role with a little bit of a different flavor. I don't consider being able to switch roles variety. The only thing that saves you is having to level up a another character (which doesn't take very long). They might as well just stick with the basic classes of fighter, mage, thief, cleric.
You cannot have variety and balance at the same time. I have never EVER seen it. I loved Starcraft 2 because it was so much fun and it was "balanced". However, the whole balance came at the cost of variety. In SC2 they would introduce very few new units or mechanics to preserve the "balance". So you either get variety or balance. Sadly it seems you can't have both. At least I haven't come across a game that offers both.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?
Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature.
Because you can now focus on even more interesting choices.
Look at D3 ... stacking stat is really not that hard (well, there is some choices of sometimes you need more vit than main stat .. but you can adjust that anyway in paragon level). However, the *real* choice is to manage what set, what legendary power (in gear, in cube) to use and how they synerize with skills.
Yeah and remember the days when there were no sets. You just had to mix and match from what you found in the game? The color code was all grey (except for the diablo games).
I suppose only Blizz has the money to put in so many set & legendary power. Stats is a crutch for cheap customization because having a "talent" (or skill or whatever you call it) to add 3 points here or there takes a lot less resources to implement than having the talent changing the game mechanics, and possibly needs animation.
Ok well lets see at one time in MMO history I remeber games such as RO, EQ1 and even EQ2, DAOC, Anarchy heck alot of games where you could mix stats from gear to improve skills and ability's even in WoW in its first year you could do this. Then something happened what is called forced player play you ether play by the rules that are placed by the player base for whats best or you do not do the content.
One of my biggest grips of all time is when a new game comes out say ESO you can enjoy the game how you want but once you get to end game or most likely half way there mid levels you start to here the best way to play X or Y class and you ether do it or never get a group for shit cause your characters gimped. This happened in GW1 and 2 as well there were classes that where best in build and gear as such and you ether play that way or never get groups for anything. Then the companies come in and change to fit the game to that mold like in WoW when the changed the skill tree to that awful system. Stats have become nothing more then mere numbers that we as players chase because it makes us as uber as what we can be instead of what we would like.
The list of games this has happened to is to long to write because its not just any game its all mmo's have gone this route because the dev's say it helps to stream line the game and make it easier for new players to understand. Players will say its the most effective way to play X,Y class or build and you have to play it that way until the master of builds come out with the latest build combo and then you switch to it cause its the best.
I do remember a time when a cleric could dump into str stat and get harder melee hits then putting only into wis or magic or what ever the stat is when characters could be what you wanted them to be but sadly no more because of the new way of streamlined stats and FOTM or META what ever it might be called but effective play is not the only way we are stuck with it till we as players put our feet done and say no more.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Yeah and remember the days when there were no sets. You just had to mix and match from what you found in the game? The color code was all grey (except for the diablo games).
Yeah, we remember how prior to Diablo 1 or so items in RPGs were pretty bland and there wasn't a whole lot of strategizing around them. In addition to more interesting attributes, set pieces caused the decision of which gear to wear to be even more interesting (as long as set bonuses weren't always brokenly good; but that's just game balance.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Characters in games only have 1 effective stat, with only 2 distinct states -- alive or dead. Why complicate things with meaningless numbers? I can understand the absolute minimal approach that this could take, and even why it might take that shape.
But for me, those meaningless numbers fire the imagination. They provide more entertainment value than an absolute minimalist implementation. It's difficult to get worked up by a single bit. And variety goes right out the window with such a simplistic implementation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I see a lot of good reasons to have character stats and even a few good arguments for the opposite case. I want to talk about this in the abstract because I'm not trying to compare actual games as that becomes a pissing contest. For Axe: are you saying that having equipment sets is superior to native stats for the character?
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
FFXIV, Wildstar (with the lastest changes), Guild Wars 2, ESO, pretty much every game in recent memory. Oh you're an Esper? Moxie for you! You're a Paladin? Vit for you! Seriously people....you're missing the birds for the trees. Just because you don't LITERALLY only have one stat, it does not mean that the others matter.
Yeah I agree that a blatantly empty illusion of variability isn't any better. You still end up with a couple good choices and the rest of the choices are just wrong.
Is it the formula that is the problem?
Player Action vs. MOB defense
Player: STR (+10) + Armor of the Vandals (+10) + Base hit chance 50% = 70
MOB defense set at 60 to accommodate variation in attack score
Players look to hit 100
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?
Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature.
Stats are what define your role in an MMO, if you want to be just another homogenous character in a game where everyone can do everything then your in luck! There are lots of these games catering to these desires. The everyone is everything you can solo it all MMO, lots of em out there to choose from.
I prefer having to make a choice that defines your ROLE in an online world. Im not opposed being able to learn everything at some point but you should not be allowed to use everything at all times. If you want to boost intelligence its going to REDUCE strength and so on.
There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?
Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature.
Stats are what define your role in an MMO, if you want to be just another homogenous character in a game where everyone can do everything then your in luck! There are lots of these games catering to these desires. The everyone is everything you can solo it all MMO, lots of em out there to choose from.
I prefer having to make a choice that defines your ROLE in an online world. Im not opposed being able to learn everything at some point but you should not be allowed to use everything at all times. If you want to boost intelligence its going to REDUCE strength and so on.
i think the point of the topic is that we don't as players have a choice. where are all these games your talking about? why can't my warlock be a melee character? why is there one or 2 viable builds if I want to play a warlock? because my stat is intelligence. strength does not affect my character in away way. I have one stat.
So the premise is that I don't find a simpler approach to character attributes in MMORPGs to be a good trend. A game can still be fun and fail in this area as there are many areas in a game that can produce a satisfying synthesis. I guess if you add enough dislikes together you get something that isn't subjectively fun. But I don't understand the reasoning behind homogeneous characters.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
There is a disturbing trend I am seeing where so-called "Characters" in MMORPGs are simply defined by one stat for their class or whatever pigeon hole the character has been put in. In some recent examples it's not even a different stat and just morphs to your class, so you could literally call it Stat and gear for it. WTF is that? If it's going to be that dumbed down and simple why even have the stats? If there is no way to build characters for different things stat-wise, why even have stats?
Maybe someone can explain to me why this is a good thing for a genre that was built from games that modeled characters at least partially from a set of scores that determined capability and build nature.
Stats are what define your role in an MMO, if you want to be just another homogenous character in a game where everyone can do everything then your in luck! There are lots of these games catering to these desires. The everyone is everything you can solo it all MMO, lots of em out there to choose from.
I prefer having to make a choice that defines your ROLE in an online world. Im not opposed being able to learn everything at some point but you should not be allowed to use everything at all times. If you want to boost intelligence its going to REDUCE strength and so on.
i think the point of the topic is that we don't as players have a choice. where are all these games your talking about? why can't my warlock be a melee character? why is there one or 2 viable builds if I want to play a warlock? because my stat is intelligence. strength does not affect my character in away way. I have one stat.
Exactly. If you have a secondary stat they are marginal at best in their effect. I'm not saying you need 30 stats for each character, I'm just saying there used to be more choice and builds when gear wasn't so pigeonholed into classes. For instance in ffxiv nearly everything is made for a certain class, so you would never wear anything else, and in a lot of cases, you don't even get that choice because you can't equip it!
FFXI has been mentioned and ill use it because its the most old school game I played (never played AC, EQ1, etc) but in those games gear was ambiguous. Typcially for a thief you wanted a scorpion harness because of the nice stats for a thf, BUT there were myriad other jobs that used it for a solo and/or evasion build such as a ninja tanking. And you had a gear set for different situations. For groups you wanted to use acid bolts to pull with for the defense debuff, for solo blood bolts for the drain effect. That kind of freedom does not exist in games anymore. You get what you get with your class and that's it.
I also hate games that force you into one of 3 build choices for your class. I love the system in DDO with so many at least somewhat viable builds for each class plus multiclassing. Path of Exile, while not really an MMO, also has an awesome talent tree which allows an almost brain-hurting amount of build diversity.
Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.
Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.
Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.
It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.
WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well.
Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?
Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.
You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.
By the same logic you can't ignore the meta in older games. EQ and the likes of it were not any better.
Also Rift was a superb example of character customisation done right. There was no one forcing you to play a pyromancer. I have played rift and I never felt forced to choose a specific "optimum" build.
Why do people insist on making this argument? No, It wasn't superb, it was broken. And yes, people did force you to play a conventional build. And even if by chance you never got booted. Although, I'm inclined to believe you probably solo'd everything. But if you played a bullshit build, and managed to get though all your dungeons. At the very least, you were carried.
I also hate games that force you into one of 3 build choices for your class. I love the system in DDO with so many at least somewhat viable builds for each class plus multiclassing. Path of Exile, while not really an MMO, also has an awesome talent tree which allows an almost brain-hurting amount of build diversity.
Ya DDO did it right we need more systems similar to that.
I see a lot of good reasons to have character stats and even a few good arguments for the opposite case. I want to talk about this in the abstract because I'm not trying to compare actual games as that becomes a pissing contest. For Axe: are you saying that having equipment sets is superior to native stats for the character?
Ya I miss needing x amount of str to use certain weapons and armor this is something I think never should have changed.
Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
As someone who played EQ1 since release - it was very much a pigenhole stat game for majority of classes. Warriors needed AC and HP, intelligence, wisdom were a complete waste on a warrior.
Casters either INT or WIS, AC was a factor for all, same with resistances.
Seriously there was a very clear singular stat path for classes in EQ1.
It's this type of example that really makes me enjoy the stat system in GW2 even more. Stats come from gear and you can focus on what you want to focus on, ignoring the meta of course. It's not a perfect system, but it makes more sense to me than your typical STR/CON/DEX, etc systems.
WoW is also good example of stats being so streamlined that there is little point to it. Jewelcraft and reforging brought a little bit of nuance to the stat system, but reforging was removed and JC was gutted into pointlessness as well.
Theoretically maybe. But the problem with GW2 is the reality of the Meta. You can't ignore it. So we can sit here and talk about how good the system is. But it's not real. Let's look at some of the more versatile classes. I think Necro happens to be one where you have more than one viable Meta. You are still limited to 2-3 different builds. But how is this really any different than multiple specs from a system like WoW?
Rift's Soul system was one of the most ingenious character build systems I've ever seen attempted. Marketing was awesome. Problem was, it was broken. It broke the system so bad it was worse than the games it was trying to improve. At least with WoW, I could roll a caster class / Hybrid and have many viable choices for DPS like Shaman, Warlock, Druid, Mage with like 7-8 viable raid builds between them. But with Rift, you had 1 Mage class and one DPS build that was most efficient. So I leveled a mage as a Chloro/Necro/Lock for the traditional Warlock style play only to find there was no group viable version of that play6-style. Not build.......Play style. If I wanted to compete in DPS, I had to re roll to Pyromacer. Maybe Elemental. Archon for a more support role or Chloro for healing. Regardless, there was no Endgame viable self healing, Dot casting, pet user available. Solo play, sure it was one of the best in the game. Don't look for a group with that though.
You can't just start citing games who had an idea if it didn't work. Because it really doesn't exist.
By the same logic you can't ignore the meta in older games. EQ and the likes of it were not any better.
Also Rift was a superb example of character customisation done right. There was no one forcing you to play a pyromancer. I have played rift and I never felt forced to choose a specific "optimum" build.
Why do people insist on making this argument? No, It wasn't superb, it was broken. And yes, people did force you to play a conventional build. And even if by chance you never got booted. Although, I'm inclined to believe you probably solo'd everything. But if you played a bullshit build, and managed to get though all your dungeons. At the very least, you were carried.
This scenario was probably only in games that catered to raiding at the upper end of difficulty. I doubt that the majority of experience in the time period over the population conformed to this model. At some stage in any situation you are "carried" by the specialist who is designated for a task or capability.
I personally usually played in small guilds made up of friends, many of whom like to experiment with builds. Carrying each other was what we called playing.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Can the OP give mmorpg names as examples as the mmorpgs I have played don't have one stat. And I remember I can stack whatever stat I wanted.
I can't think of anything with a single either but stats do have close to zero impact compared to what they had in games like Everquest and that makes characters far more similar to eachother which is bad.
It all came to be because of 1v1 balance, which a crapton of other players feel is important. SO what's bad is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This scenario was probably only in games that catered to raiding at the upper end of difficulty. I doubt that the majority of experience in the time period over the population conformed to this model. At some stage in any situation you are "carried" by the specialist who is designated for a task or capability.
I personally usually played in small guilds made up of friends, many of whom like to experiment with builds. Carrying each other was what we called playing.
Raiding? Yeah, it happened there. And in zone events, PVP, Dungeons....OK, maybe not zone events. But everywhere else.
Pull your own weight and you don't get carried. Play with some BS build and you get carried. If everyone plays that way....Well then that's probably the best that you found other people who want to play the way you do. And that's fine, as long as you don't do it in such a way that you end up disrespecting others who don't play like you.
I see there are both sides to this. But knowingly entering into grouped content where you WILL under perform simply because that's what you want to do, does disrespect the time of the others who are there to beat the dungeon.
IMO, making good use of Rift's Soul System was better for having fun in Solo content.
Comments
Also Rift was a superb example of character customisation done right. There was no one forcing you to play a pyromancer. I have played rift and I never felt forced to choose a specific "optimum" build.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
One of my biggest grips of all time is when a new game comes out say ESO you can enjoy the game how you want but once you get to end game or most likely half way there mid levels you start to here the best way to play X or Y class and you ether do it or never get a group for shit cause your characters gimped. This happened in GW1 and 2 as well there were classes that where best in build and gear as such and you ether play that way or never get groups for anything. Then the companies come in and change to fit the game to that mold like in WoW when the changed the skill tree to that awful system. Stats have become nothing more then mere numbers that we as players chase because it makes us as uber as what we can be instead of what we would like.
The list of games this has happened to is to long to write because its not just any game its all mmo's have gone this route because the dev's say it helps to stream line the game and make it easier for new players to understand. Players will say its the most effective way to play X,Y class or build and you have to play it that way until the master of builds come out with the latest build combo and then you switch to it cause its the best.
I do remember a time when a cleric could dump into str stat and get harder melee hits then putting only into wis or magic or what ever the stat is when characters could be what you wanted them to be but sadly no more because of the new way of streamlined stats and FOTM or META what ever it might be called but effective play is not the only way we are stuck with it till we as players put our feet done and say no more.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But for me, those meaningless numbers fire the imagination. They provide more entertainment value than an absolute minimalist implementation. It's difficult to get worked up by a single bit. And variety goes right out the window with such a simplistic implementation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
For Axe: are you saying that having equipment sets is superior to native stats for the character?
Oh you're an Esper? Moxie for you! You're a Paladin? Vit for you! Seriously people....you're missing the birds for the trees.
Just because you don't LITERALLY only have one stat, it does not mean that the others matter.
Is it the formula that is the problem?
Player Action vs. MOB defense
Player: STR (+10) + Armor of the Vandals (+10) + Base hit chance 50% = 70
MOB defense set at 60 to accommodate variation in attack score
Players look to hit 100
Stats are what define your role in an MMO, if you want to be just another homogenous character in a game where everyone can do everything then your in luck! There are lots of these games catering to these desires. The everyone is everything you can solo it all MMO, lots of em out there to choose from.
I prefer having to make a choice that defines your ROLE in an online world. Im not opposed being able to learn everything at some point but you should not be allowed to use everything at all times. If you want to boost intelligence its going to REDUCE strength and so on.
i think the point of the topic is that we don't as players have a choice. where are all these games your talking about? why can't my warlock be a melee character? why is there one or 2 viable builds if I want to play a warlock? because my stat is intelligence. strength does not affect my character in away way. I have one stat.
Exactly. If you have a secondary stat they are marginal at best in their effect. I'm not saying you need 30 stats for each character, I'm just saying there used to be more choice and builds when gear wasn't so pigeonholed into classes. For instance in ffxiv nearly everything is made for a certain class, so you would never wear anything else, and in a lot of cases, you don't even get that choice because you can't equip it!
FFXI has been mentioned and ill use it because its the most old school game I played (never played AC, EQ1, etc) but in those games gear was ambiguous. Typcially for a thief you wanted a scorpion harness because of the nice stats for a thf, BUT there were myriad other jobs that used it for a solo and/or evasion build such as a ninja tanking. And you had a gear set for different situations. For groups you wanted to use acid bolts to pull with for the defense debuff, for solo blood bolts for the drain effect. That kind of freedom does not exist in games anymore. You get what you get with your class and that's it.
Why do people insist on making this argument? No, It wasn't superb, it was broken. And yes, people did force you to play a conventional build. And even if by chance you never got booted. Although, I'm inclined to believe you probably solo'd everything. But if you played a bullshit build, and managed to get though all your dungeons. At the very least, you were carried.
Ya I miss needing x amount of str to use certain weapons and armor this is something I think never should have changed.
I personally usually played in small guilds made up of friends, many of whom like to experiment with builds. Carrying each other was what we called playing.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Pull your own weight and you don't get carried. Play with some BS build and you get carried. If everyone plays that way....Well then that's probably the best that you found other people who want to play the way you do. And that's fine, as long as you don't do it in such a way that you end up disrespecting others who don't play like you.
I see there are both sides to this. But knowingly entering into grouped content where you WILL under perform simply because that's what you want to do, does disrespect the time of the others who are there to beat the dungeon.
IMO, making good use of Rift's Soul System was better for having fun in Solo content.
Many here were talking about "investment", "effort", "time sink", "achievement" and things like that ....