This is an issue for the whole of gaming. I think it was the CEO of Nintendo who explained how they tested old gameplay on focus groups to see what could appeal. The overall result was that nothing old did appeal, as they had no grasp of how to behave when presented with old gameplay.
My favourite was the Pit of Doom. New players could not understand that there was no way to jump into the pit and not die. They assumed that such an instant form of death could not occur and kept trying to find some way to jump into and traverse the pit. This was a pit called The Pit Of Doom.
It is very tricky once you have let easymode gameplay out of the bottle to put the stopper back in. Many players called for something harder, and after years past even some gaming journalists did as well. That shows you how much things had changed, gaming journalists rarely speak out. With the rise of indie you can now get some tough games, but no signs of it becoming more mainstream.
Todays 'gamer' wants a game session that lasts no longer than smoking a fag, a session which is no harder than rolling your own.
OP, yeah, I know exactly what you are talking about too. Hard to remember the specifics for examples, but AI is top on my list generally speaking.
On a side note, I see those same names we all know, those mighty defenders of all that is holy and status quo, are here to give you a hard time just like every thread that threatens their pitiful existence. They are the status of the quo. I even have nick names for them: Axe-to-Grind Lobotomy-fit Nary-o'-Seldom.
LOL
When a person makes a claim, they need to provide logic or evidence supporting it. Otherwise it's considered baseless nonsense. The OP's claim is vague and lacks evidence (examples), and after several requests no evidence has surfaced. That's why the OP is having a hard time.
It's like your claim here that a thread at some point "threatened" our existence. Even the loosest implication of that claim is wrong, since MMORPG.com threads don't really have much influence over how MMORPGs are made. So no thread here could possibly "threaten our existence" (in the loosest sense: by significantly changing how MMORPGs are made.) That just doesn't happen. You're making a baseless claim.
But if you'd like to leave the veiled insults and imaginary claims behind and discuss real things, we'll still be here and you're welcome to join us.
Not accurate. SWG, you may have heard of it; Star Wars Galaxies, was ruined (IMO) by people going ot the forums to whine that it was too hard to get Jedi. This was sighted in several patch notes (we just called them updates back then) and before you ask, no I will not go and dig up old SWG patch notes, deal with it. So while the very silent majority was in game having a great time, the very vocal minority was on the discussion boards getting changes made.
So, in as much as forums posters can ruin games Amaranther is correct, as far as ruining your existence that I don't think will ever happen. A lot of people wish it would (me included), but I just don't see it happening.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
As I see some people were asking for particular examples, I've just remembered "The Scourge Plague" in WoW.
The Scourge Plague, as you all may know, was an attempt by Blizzard to introduce large dynamic events in WoW, just to make the experience a bit more unpredictable and the world more alive. Although it wasn't the first event, this was the first that affected all players. A noble attempt by all means.
Although many players seemed to enjoy the experience, the forums soon filled with people crying about how the event had disturbed their "daily routines", if only for a few minutes...
What I'm trying to say is that in mainstream MMORPGs (btw "mainstream" is not a bad thing per se) we have come to such a narrowed idea of what MMORPGs should be about that it's very hard to come up with brave new concepts.
Personally, I think that this could be avoided if there's was a proper market fragmentation: Specialized product for player niches. I think we might already be in the right direction: For example, an indie game like ARK provides with more interaction and RP possibilities that any AAA MMO I've played in the last 12 years.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
As I see some people were asking for particular examples, I've just remembered "The Scourge Plague" in WoW.
The Scourge Plague, as you all may know, was an attempt by Blizzard to introduce large dynamic events in WoW, just to make the experience a bit more unpredictable and the world more alive. Although it wasn't the first event, this was the first that affected all players. A noble attempt by all means.
Although many players seemed to enjoy the experience, the forums soon filled with people crying about how the event had disturbed their "daily routines", if only for a few minutes...
What I'm trying to say is that in mainstream MMORPGs (btw "mainstream" is not a bad thing per se) we have come to such a narrowed idea of what MMORPGs should be about that it's very hard to come up with brave new concepts.
Personally, I think that this could be avoided if there's was a proper market fragmentation: Specialized product for player niches. I think we might already be in the right direction: For example, an indie game like ARK provides with more interaction and RP possibilities that any AAA MMO I've played in the last 12 years.
What are you, some kind of Anti-Naxxer?
What you describe has been consistent in every MMO, including the older ones we venerate so well.
In Asheron's Call, the Elemental Invasion (2002) pissed off countless players, as miasmas and other acid, air, fire and electric beasties attacked and surrounded towns. Conversely the Shadow Wars were similar in nature but enjoyed by the players. Why? In the Shadow Wars, there was ample warning and reasonable expectation. In the Plague of Undeath and AC's Elemental Invasion, there was no reasonable warning or education on what was about to happen or what to expect.
In UO, when we were doing the Followers of Armageddon plot (1998), we wanted to radiate damage out from the black wisps and we even hinted at it, but the players weren't ready for it and the implication that we would be damaging houses had heads exploding across the forums. What's worthy of note is that the individual events were memeborable, but the FoA event as a whole became rather long in the tooth as it dragged on. Most people were simply done with it after a few months, and for those peopel the fact that it became avoidable made it tolerable. Conversely...
Large dynamic events that are unavoidable and drag on become annoying to the playerbase. A notable example would be, again, the elemental invasion in AC, and a more recent example of RIFT getting all Stephen King with their misty Summer 2011 world event.
The discontent in each of these scenarios, the Plague included, is not due to any narrow view or ignorance of history, but with how they were executed. Your example is unrelated.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, I'd say the modern myth involves bitter vets wanting to get back to the old formulas in the name of their master race "egoboos" and their e-penishes. A logic that takes reductionism to absurd levels with aims to kill any proposal for improvements or drastic variations in the current MMO standard.
Anyway, thanks for your comment. It was fun.
When someone points out horses are an obsolete form of transportation, it doesn't mean they're against hoverboards, flying cars, and efficient electric self-driving cars. It means they're against horses. That's it.
"You're against the Old Ways, so you only want Status Quo," is a fallacy.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Seems like you weren't really listening to their concerns or reasons.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
And at what point that 'dungeon' simply becomes an instanced zone.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OP, yeah, I know exactly what you are talking about too. Hard to remember the specifics for examples, but AI is top on my list generally speaking.
On a side note, I see those same names we all know, those mighty defenders of all that is holy and status quo, are here to give you a hard time just like every thread that threatens their pitiful existence. They are the status of the quo. I even have nick names for them: Axe-to-Grind Lobotomy-fit Nary-o'-Seldom.
LOL
When a person makes a claim, they need to provide logic or evidence supporting it. Otherwise it's considered baseless nonsense. The OP's claim is vague and lacks evidence (examples), and after several requests no evidence has surfaced. That's why the OP is having a hard time.
It's like your claim here that a thread at some point "threatened" our existence. Even the loosest implication of that claim is wrong, since MMORPG.com threads don't really have much influence over how MMORPGs are made. So no thread here could possibly "threaten our existence" (in the loosest sense: by significantly changing how MMORPGs are made.) That just doesn't happen. You're making a baseless claim.
But if you'd like to leave the veiled insults and imaginary claims behind and discuss real things, we'll still be here and you're welcome to join us.
Really, I don't give a squat about your explanations, nor your demands. You and the others do nothing but attack anyone who posts anything that might possibly lead to game play that's different than the current boring same ol' swill that's being pushed out the doors. Or challenges that status quo in any way.
You've made our participation here something we have to constantly defend, and a nightmare to do. You're not only killing MMORPGs, you're killing these forums. (And others, this has been a widespread thing for years.)
This has got to be the single most bizarre interpretation of Axehilt's and my posts, if for no other reason than you singled out people that have never posted anything even remotely inferring the strange agendas you suggest.
I mean, I'm glad you're having fun giggling over pet names for us, because everyone needs some joy in their life, but ... wow, that's some hardcore Kool-Aid you've whipped up for yourself, man.
EDIT: I think the icing on this oddness cake is that you make the above two bolded/italicized comments just minutes after you create a post telling someone that is making a caveman MMO that they need to add magic and be more of a 'Trolls and Dragons' game than a Paleolithic Life sim. (link)
And yet, here you guys are again in a thread that puts any negative light on the current status quo. Not just here, but in force with multiple demands that the OP explain himself for this rather simple comment, to prove it with examples. Just like you same guys do in every post that puts a negative light on the same ol' same ol' that you guys, for some unexplained reason, seem to defend at every turn. EVERY TURN. ( <- just to be clear)
When does this bullshit stop? It won't, will it. There's too much at stake for you guys. Your jobs defined by doing exactly what's been done before, the financial structure of a gaming industry that's choking itself on it's own crap.
As far as that other game (which comment is irrelevant to this topic), that was a suggestion based on making a game that would add something to what otherwise might be boring. I'm not hammering away at it, making any demands. It was one comment. But more to your point, there's "same" and there's "same old". The difference being something people still/always like compared to something that's been done to death and people are tired of. I'm sure you won't get that because you don't want to. But that's your problem. I just wish you and your friends would stop pushing your problems onto the rest of us.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
EDIT: Also, you didn't answer how you are going to make that content with a limited team, limited amount of money and in a limited amount of time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
Is it so hard to see? You make the rest of the world interesting too. Isn't that what ALL MMORPGs strive to do? It's simply a different way of doing things if it's a Sandbox, but it could also be done in Themeparks. You also make the "quest" for the answers interesting. None of this is new in RPGaming, really. It's just a different slant maybe.
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking. "Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer. Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
Is it so hard to see? You make the rest of the world interesting too. Isn't that what ALL MMORPGs strive to do? It's simply a different way of doing things if it's a Sandbox, but it could also be done in Themeparks. You also make the "quest" for the answers interesting. None of this is new in RPGaming, really. It's just a different slant maybe.
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking. "Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer. Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
No, you are demanding too much. This is nonsense. I'm not writing a book to prove to you that an idea has merit.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
Is it so hard to see? You make the rest of the world interesting too. Isn't that what ALL MMORPGs strive to do? It's simply a different way of doing things if it's a Sandbox, but it could also be done in Themeparks. You also make the "quest" for the answers interesting. None of this is new in RPGaming, really. It's just a different slant maybe.
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking. "Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer. Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
It doesn't have to be anymore more involved than typical quest. Dungeon 1. could have sections A-E. Each section outside of A needs a key or relic. Quest is not in dungeon so you need to come back. Kind of do this with games like Legend of Zelda.
You could also handcraft a deep dungeon that would take the average player months to get pass.
You could level scale it so the beginning is low level to max level. If it takes the average player 2-3 months to get to max level you have a 2-3 month dungeon before its fully completed.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
No, you are demanding too much. This is nonsense. I'm not writing a book to prove to you that an idea has merit.
Its not nonsense. Everybody has ideas. Unless you go into details, an idea is worthless. More to the point, it should be your responsibility to explain the merits of your idea and present enough details so that people get an idea how it works and if it is feasible or not.
If this is too much... What can I say? Don't make suggestions. In any case, if your idea is shot down, it is not because of some general negativism. In my experience, it is mostly because people don't think their ideas through and/or they are ignorant about how games are made.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
No, you are demanding too much. This is nonsense. I'm not writing a book to prove to you that an idea has merit.
Its not nonsense. Everybody has ideas. Unless you go into details, an idea is worthless. More to the point, it should be your responsibility to explain the merits of your idea and present enough details so that people get an idea how it works and if it is feasible or not.
If this is too much... What can I say? Don't make suggestions. In any case, if your idea is shot down, it is not because of some general negativism. In my experience, it is mostly because people don't think their ideas through and/or they are ignorant about how games are made.
Bullcrap. I've been through this too many times in the past. All you guys do is shoot down ideas that don't adhere to the current stifling design. Been there and done that.
Side note, I have followed your suggestion to stop posting suggestions. Mostly, anyways. Because all I get is the grief on these forums like in this thread. It always ends up with this constant "can't be done" and "prove it".
You status quo protectors are a real piece of work.
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
Is it so hard to see? You make the rest of the world interesting too. Isn't that what ALL MMORPGs strive to do? It's simply a different way of doing things if it's a Sandbox, but it could also be done in Themeparks. You also make the "quest" for the answers interesting. None of this is new in RPGaming, really. It's just a different slant maybe.
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking. "Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer. Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
It doesn't have to be anymore more involved than typical quest. Dungeon 1. could have sections A-E. Each section outside of A needs a key or relic. Quest is not in dungeon so you need to come back. Kind of do this with games like Legend of Zelda.
You could also handcraft a deep dungeon that would take the average player months to get pass.
You could level scale it so the beginning is low level to max level. If it takes the average player 2-3 months to get to max level you have a 2-3 month dungeon before its fully completed.
I just had another idea, based more on Sandbox game play. But the hell with it. I'm just too tired of the grief that comes from a certain few around here. Why waste my time defending it on and on. I don't like repetition in my MMO's and I don't like it here.
Like MMORPG with no levels, no questhub progression, no raiding end game and things of that nature.
Can you link to one of the posts or threads you are referring to? I'm interested in where you are seeing MMORPG.com posters lost as to those things being possibilities.
The worst is when you start a thread about something sandbox and people start bringing up instancing and dungeons or leveling and gear progression. With today's gamer if it isn't a themepark or a moba, then it isn't possible.
There was a comment in the camelot unchained forums where someone said that it is impossible to have thousands of players in the same battle. Obviously they never played the original Dark Age of Camelot (or any other old game for that matter). Modern games lag with 10 people on screen.
For those of us that did play DAoC, can you remind us what server/battle had thousands of players in the same battle?
You realize DAoC and no MMO ever has had thousands of people battling at the same time in the same place? At best, there have been hundreds, and even that is pretty messy.
Actually, DAOC did have such battles. Since each server had a population of 2-5k players, all divided into 3 factions all trying to zerg the frontiers it was actually common for you to run up in your realm zerg and then see another realm zerg (after it loaded of course). I remember one time watching midgard show up with 2000+ players and take a keep down like likety split.
Maybe you two played later on after the population dropped and servers were closed down. Fact: the biggest complaint about DAOC during its hay-day was that the biggest zerg with the most mez won (well, actually the biggest complaint was radar hacks).
Its one thing that I have seen is that the genre has many standardized features. Discussing old or outside of the box feature with people who never played it... they act likely your talking about something impossible or crazy.
That was the whole premise behind dungeons that take 2-3 months being "impossible" in one of the other threads where we were dicussing what we're building with Saga of Lucimia @Vermillion_Raventhal ;
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
Explain how you can make a dungeon last for 2-3 months. Explain how you can create several of them with a sensible budget with limited manpower and in a limited amount of time.
↑ Just proved the OP's point.
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next. And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Alright, so you're going to make people run back 'n' forth from the dungeon. What do you do to ensure that players don't spend most of their time commuting between objectives? How do you make that commute interesting, and what methods will you use to ensure players don't get bored/frustrated with the system? How do you deal with the fragmentation of your playerbase when you have such heavy emphasis on gated content?
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
Is it so hard to see? You make the rest of the world interesting too. Isn't that what ALL MMORPGs strive to do? It's simply a different way of doing things if it's a Sandbox, but it could also be done in Themeparks. You also make the "quest" for the answers interesting. None of this is new in RPGaming, really. It's just a different slant maybe.
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking. "Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer. Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
It doesn't have to be anymore more involved than typical quest. Dungeon 1. could have sections A-E. Each section outside of A needs a key or relic. Quest is not in dungeon so you need to come back. Kind of do this with games like Legend of Zelda.
You could also handcraft a deep dungeon that would take the average player months to get pass.
You could level scale it so the beginning is low level to max level. If it takes the average player 2-3 months to get to max level you have a 2-3 month dungeon before its fully completed.
I just had another idea, based more on Sandbox game play. But the hell with it. I'm just too tired of the grief that comes from a certain few around here. Why waste my time defending it on and on. I don't like repetition in my MMO's and I don't like it here.
Like how these same threads that you are so passionately defending comes up day in and day out? Not repetition when it goes your way eh? Looks like someone needs to take a chill pill and learn that forums are for discussions. People will disagree.
They're not trying to maintain some status quo. They just don't agree with you so they will refute what you say. If you actually make good rebutals to them, you wouldn't get them disagreeing with you and based on everything you've said so far, not very compelling arguments AT ALL.
Also, getting all riled up and assuming things about them because they don't agree with you is not helping your cause. Trust me, I've been there. Grow some thicker skin and learn that you're on a discussion forum, not a everyone should agree with amaranthur forum.
Throwing out ideas is all fine and dandy but just throwing out ideas like you have with no details, how are people going to take you seriously? If you were a developer and take that to your boss, he would laugh in your face.
OP, yeah, I know exactly what you are talking about too. Hard to remember the specifics for examples, but AI is top on my list generally speaking.
On a side note, I see those same names we all know, those mighty defenders of all that is holy and status quo, are here to give you a hard time just like every thread that threatens their pitiful existence. They are the status of the quo. I even have nick names for them: Axe-to-Grind Lobotomy-fit Nary-o'-Seldom.
LOL
When a person makes a claim, they need to provide logic or evidence supporting it. Otherwise it's considered baseless nonsense. The OP's claim is vague and lacks evidence (examples), and after several requests no evidence has surfaced. That's why the OP is having a hard time.
It's like your claim here that a thread at some point "threatened" our existence. Even the loosest implication of that claim is wrong, since MMORPG.com threads don't really have much influence over how MMORPGs are made. So no thread here could possibly "threaten our existence" (in the loosest sense: by significantly changing how MMORPGs are made.) That just doesn't happen. You're making a baseless claim.
But if you'd like to leave the veiled insults and imaginary claims behind and discuss real things, we'll still be here and you're welcome to join us.
It was a question not a claim or demand. I asked about the posters here personal experience. The reason the question was "vague" was to not limit people's personal experiences one way or the other. An interrogation on to whether I made something up is ridiculous. I don't need evidence to ask a question lol.
I just had another idea, based more on Sandbox game play. But the hell with it. I'm just too tired of the grief that comes from a certain few around here. Why waste my time defending it on and on. I don't like repetition in my MMO's and I don't like it here.
Like how these same threads that you are so passionately defending comes up day in and day out? Not repetition when it goes your way eh? Looks like someone needs to take a chill pill and learn that forums are for discussions. People will disagree.
They're not trying to maintain some status quo. They just don't agree with you so they will refute what you say. If you actually make good rebutals to them, you wouldn't get them disagreeing with you and based on everything you've said so far, not very compelling arguments AT ALL.
Also, getting all riled up and assuming things about them because they don't agree with you is not helping your cause. Trust me, I've been there. Grow some thicker skin and learn that you're on a discussion forum, not a everyone should agree with amaranthur forum.
Throwing out ideas is all fine and dandy but just throwing out ideas like you have with no details, how are people going to take you seriously? If you were a developer and take that to your boss, he would laugh in your face.
Would say that there are people who are antagonistic. The view point that they're always bitter vets sulking around demanding games be made for them anytime someone mentions a feature they would like to return is popular here. I have a feeling that same sentiment is the reason why this thread has so much grief. Hard to imagine how else an open ended question could be taken so far. Yes, I have and an example or no I haven't would be reasonable answers here.
How do you make the rest of the world interesting? And what are these gates in practice? If a gate is unlocked for everybody, aren't you creating a lot of one-time-use quests? Are you going to produce them procedurally or are they hand-made? Is that one dungeon with its (I'm assuming) open world quest extensions all the content you will have in your game or will there be more of the 3-month dungeons? Will there be anything else in the game?
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
No, you are demanding too much. This is nonsense. I'm not writing a book to prove to you that an idea has merit.
Its not nonsense. Everybody has ideas. Unless you go into details, an idea is worthless. More to the point, it should be your responsibility to explain the merits of your idea and present enough details so that people get an idea how it works and if it is feasible or not.
If this is too much... What can I say? Don't make suggestions. In any case, if your idea is shot down, it is not because of some general negativism. In my experience, it is mostly because people don't think their ideas through and/or they are ignorant about how games are made.
Bullcrap. I've been through this too many times in the past. All you guys do is shoot down ideas that don't adhere to the current stifling design. Been there and done that.
Side note, I have followed your suggestion to stop posting suggestions. Mostly, anyways. Because all I get is the grief on these forums like in this thread. It always ends up with this constant "can't be done" and "prove it".
You status quo protectors are a real piece of work.
So its us and not you? -Gotcha...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
This is an issue for the whole of gaming. I think it was the CEO of Nintendo who explained how they tested old gameplay on focus groups to see what could appeal. The overall result was that nothing old did appeal, as they had no grasp of how to behave when presented with old gameplay.
My favourite was the Pit of Doom. New players could not understand that there was no way to jump into the pit and not die. They assumed that such an instant form of death could not occur and kept trying to find some way to jump into and traverse the pit. This was a pit called The Pit Of Doom.
It is very tricky once you have let easymode gameplay out of the bottle to put the stopper back in. Many players called for something harder, and after years past even some gaming journalists did as well. That shows you how much things had changed, gaming journalists rarely speak out. With the rise of indie you can now get some tough games, but no signs of it becoming more mainstream.
Todays 'gamer' wants a game session that lasts no longer than smoking a fag, a session which is no harder than rolling your own.
So, in as much as forums posters can ruin games Amaranther is correct, as far as ruining your existence that I don't think will ever happen. A lot of people wish it would (me included), but I just don't see it happening.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The Scourge Plague, as you all may know, was an attempt by Blizzard to introduce large dynamic events in WoW, just to make the experience a bit more unpredictable and the world more alive. Although it wasn't the first event, this was the first that affected all players. A noble attempt by all means.
Although many players seemed to enjoy the experience, the forums soon filled with people crying about how the event had disturbed their "daily routines", if only for a few minutes...
What I'm trying to say is that in mainstream MMORPGs (btw "mainstream" is not a bad thing per se) we have come to such a narrowed idea of what MMORPGs should be about that it's very hard to come up with brave new concepts.
Personally, I think that this could be avoided if there's was a proper market fragmentation: Specialized product for player niches. I think we might already be in the right direction: For example, an indie game like ARK provides with more interaction and RP possibilities that any AAA MMO I've played in the last 12 years.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
What are you, some kind of Anti-Naxxer?
What you describe has been consistent in every MMO, including the older ones we venerate so well.
In Asheron's Call, the Elemental Invasion (2002) pissed off countless players, as miasmas and other acid, air, fire and electric beasties attacked and surrounded towns. Conversely the Shadow Wars were similar in nature but enjoyed by the players. Why? In the Shadow Wars, there was ample warning and reasonable expectation. In the Plague of Undeath and AC's Elemental Invasion, there was no reasonable warning or education on what was about to happen or what to expect.
In UO, when we were doing the Followers of Armageddon plot (1998), we wanted to radiate damage out from the black wisps and we even hinted at it, but the players weren't ready for it and the implication that we would be damaging houses had heads exploding across the forums. What's worthy of note is that the individual events were memeborable, but the FoA event as a whole became rather long in the tooth as it dragged on. Most people were simply done with it after a few months, and for those peopel the fact that it became avoidable made it tolerable. Conversely...
Large dynamic events that are unavoidable and drag on become annoying to the playerbase. A notable example would be, again, the elemental invasion in AC, and a more recent example of RIFT getting all Stephen King with their misty Summer 2011 world event.
The discontent in each of these scenarios, the Plague included, is not due to any narrow view or ignorance of history, but with how they were executed. Your example is unrelated.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"You're against the Old Ways, so you only want Status Quo," is a fallacy.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's either a case of players who never played EverQuest, or those who have spent so long at the 15-minute-hard-mode titty that they've forgotten what old-school dungeons were like back in the day, when they weren't built for a 1-2 level spread, but instead fleshed out to support 15-20 levels' worth of content and you could spend months within.
Tower of Frozen Shadow...Sebelis....Mistmoore....TOV....Kael....Ssra....from leveling dungeons to raid dungeons, it's not impossible. It just hasn't been done in more than a dozen years.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Just like you same guys do in every post that puts a negative light on the same ol' same ol' that you guys, for some unexplained reason, seem to defend at every turn. EVERY TURN. ( <- just to be clear)
When does this bullshit stop? It won't, will it. There's too much at stake for you guys. Your jobs defined by doing exactly what's been done before, the financial structure of a gaming industry that's choking itself on it's own crap.
As far as that other game (which comment is irrelevant to this topic), that was a suggestion based on making a game that would add something to what otherwise might be boring. I'm not hammering away at it, making any demands. It was one comment.
But more to your point, there's "same" and there's "same old". The difference being something people still/always like compared to something that's been done to death and people are tired of.
I'm sure you won't get that because you don't want to.
But that's your problem.
I just wish you and your friends would stop pushing your problems onto the rest of us.
Once upon a time....
There's probably more than one answer to this. But in my mind, I can picture a game where the players are confronted with obstacles (think puzzles or locks of some form, could be magical passwords too) that require them to leave the dungeon and go out in the rest of the world to find the answers/"keys". Making a massive dungeon so that each obstacle isn't on top of the last, basically turning one dungeon into multiple dungeons (or more precisely, linking multiple dungeons into one massive) requiring various forms of "keys" to unlock the next.
And making it a "quest" of a different sort than the same ol' same ol'.
But that was too hard to see, wasn't it?
Once upon a time....
From a game design stand point, these high concept ideas are absolutely useless without the details. And remember, content for 2-3 months is a fuck-ton of content!
EDIT: Also, you didn't answer how you are going to make that content with a limited team, limited amount of money and in a limited amount of time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In a Sandbox game, it wouldn't necessarily be "gated" as each time a "gate" is unlocked it could be unlocked for all. Imagine a game where each "gate" can be named by the player who performs the unlocking.
"Quirhid's Gate", for example. Or "Sane ol' Same ol' Guild's Gate", if you'd prefer.
Or it could be "gated", especially in the case of a same ol' Themepark game.
It's just a system design. Any real difference in game play is in the design of the game, aka Sandbox vs. Themepark.
Once upon a time....
Again, I can't stress this enough: details are everything. And for every feature you design, you also have to think how to make it. If you can't make it, all that design work is pointless. Nobody has infinite resources.
I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Once upon a time....
You could also handcraft a deep dungeon that would take the average player months to get pass.
You could level scale it so the beginning is low level to max level. If it takes the average player 2-3 months to get to max level you have a 2-3 month dungeon before its fully completed.
If this is too much... What can I say? Don't make suggestions. In any case, if your idea is shot down, it is not because of some general negativism. In my experience, it is mostly because people don't think their ideas through and/or they are ignorant about how games are made.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I've been through this too many times in the past. All you guys do is shoot down ideas that don't adhere to the current stifling design.
Been there and done that.
Side note, I have followed your suggestion to stop posting suggestions. Mostly, anyways. Because all I get is the grief on these forums like in this thread. It always ends up with this constant "can't be done" and "prove it".
You status quo protectors are a real piece of work.
Once upon a time....
But the hell with it. I'm just too tired of the grief that comes from a certain few around here. Why waste my time defending it on and on. I don't like repetition in my MMO's and I don't like it here.
Once upon a time....
Actually, DAOC did have such battles. Since each server had a population of 2-5k players, all divided into 3 factions all trying to zerg the frontiers it was actually common for you to run up in your realm zerg and then see another realm zerg (after it loaded of course). I remember one time watching midgard show up with 2000+ players and take a keep down like likety split.
Maybe you two played later on after the population dropped and servers were closed down.
Fact: the biggest complaint about DAOC during its hay-day was that the biggest zerg with the most mez won (well, actually the biggest complaint was radar hacks).
Looks like someone needs to take a chill pill and learn that forums are for discussions. People will disagree.
They're not trying to maintain some status quo. They just don't agree with you so they will refute what you say. If you actually make good rebutals to them, you wouldn't get them disagreeing with you and based on everything you've said so far, not very compelling arguments AT ALL.
Also, getting all riled up and assuming things about them because they don't agree with you is not helping your cause. Trust me, I've been there. Grow some thicker skin and learn that you're on a discussion forum, not a everyone should agree with amaranthur forum.
Throwing out ideas is all fine and dandy but just throwing out ideas like you have with no details, how are people going to take you seriously? If you were a developer and take that to your boss, he would laugh in your face.
It was a question not a claim or demand. I asked about the posters here personal experience. The reason the question was "vague" was to not limit people's personal experiences one way or the other. An interrogation on to whether I made something up is ridiculous. I don't need evidence to ask a question lol.
Would say that there are people who are antagonistic. The view point that they're always bitter vets sulking around demanding games be made for them anytime someone mentions a feature they would like to return is popular here. I have a feeling that same sentiment is the reason why this thread has so much grief. Hard to imagine how else an open ended question could be taken so far. Yes, I have and an example or no I haven't would be reasonable answers here.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky