I purchased and I am absolutely loving it. My only complaint is the amount of Hero Points needed to unlock all of the skills and traits for the elite specializations. A single elite specialization is roughly equal to the total number of hero points you obtain 1-80. At the same time, you earn 10 points per Hero Point Challenge in HoT, and most I've run into are soloable or duoable, and the few that need 3+ I've run into others wanting to do it too. With that said, I've seen a post from a Revenant (new class) where he obtained all 400 points doing Tyria hero points and Verdant Brink hero points and it took him about 12 hours to unlock, so not really a giant time sink, and even less so for older characters who have many waypoints opened.
The Mastery system is fun, and basically makes you want to do pretty much everything since it's basically works like a XP bar. XP boosters seem to help out too, and I have a ton of birthday boosters sitting around (I have 12 level 80s atm). The big three you need are gliding, updraft training and bouncy mushroom use, all of which are easily obtainable within the first hour or two of entering the new areas. Plus with the system being account wide, it doesn't feel like much of a grind.
The complaints I am seeing on the forums are seemingly from people expecting the content to be faceroll. ANet stated on a number of occasions that the new content was going to be more difficult than old work tyria, and that's turned out to be true. You can run the old "zerker" meta, but most will struggle with the glassiness of it. I have found myself using somewhat tankier gear, like mixing knights and valkyrie stats for more toughness and vitality without sacrificing a ton of dps. I have also found myself switching to my ranged weapon more often to keep out of danger zones and either finishing a mob off, or weakening them to move in for a quick melee kill.
People need to learn to step away from the glass cannon mentality and move into builds with more sustain.
Metacritic user rating is 5.3 based on 99 ratings thus far. I gave it a 6. I might like it more or less in next week or so.
I don't think you actually can judge a MMO expansion in 3 days and some uncomplete betas. Now, I am not saying that it deserves higher points (or lower) but it takes at least 6 weeks before you have played enough. The last Wow expansion got really high scores the first weeks but became less and less popular with time and the other way around is far from unlikely as well.
Don't post scores before you at least got a weeks gameplay in the final release please, even that is unfair but then you have far more clue than after 3 days at least.
I will give it a score eventually, but that will be at least a month from now when I am certain.
Coming from some one who's played Guild Wars 2 since beta. The only
thing exceptional that has come out of this game since then is the Super
Adventure Box. Yet they even withhold that from us with its return
indefinitely delayed.
All we're left with, is this uninteresting and uninspiring content that we have to do a thousand times over.
Minimal content is gated behind heavily repetitive as well as recycled content. Client crashes for large events that have been around for a year or more are still not fixed. Stay away is my recommendation.
Expansion is certainly not worth the price tag.
Suuuuurrre. Once you actually play it instead repeating what you heard on teh 'net.
Youre still butthurt about WS. Time to let it go. It didnt make a dent in GW2.
I have played it. I stopped playing when I was going through the story content and hit a hard gating requirement in order to continue. When myself and a guildie cannot play together because they have to go through hours of grinding the same events (aka "content") over and over to get on the same step I am. That's when I believe this game is no longer what we're seeking.
As for Wildstar, that was a disappointment. I don't play that any more either. Not sure what straws you're trying to grab there.
It's never good to see when a game fails. But it's never good when players are being exploited either.
I think gating is a very good way of advancement....
those people there choose to repeat those events over and over... Because there espescially in this game are so many other ways to advance... Making it a grindy buisness was their choice...
Quite incorrect. There is only one way to advance in the new HoT masteries. That is only by doing the same PVE events in the new zone area over and over. You do not have a choice.
People have already expressed this complaint in threads such as this one that plague the official forums.
The percentages in the poll have not changed. From the beginning of the thread, the number of positives vs. the regrets has held at roughly 2 to one. It's the number of people who haven't purchased that I am wondering about. Is that usually this high for an expansion in a high profile game?
You have to ask? On this site? lol
Just see some of the names that trolled GW2 topics for 3 years claiming they now bought the expansion and its not worth it. You have to wonder, but then if they DID buy it (very doubtful), joke is on them.
All one has to do is view the official forums to see all the complaints. Having played for the majority of the weekend since the first day of expansion release. I say their complaints are quite valid.
This thread is quite useful to find out if the expansion is for you:
official forums have been full pf complaints about anything and everything for last 3 years.
forums dont represent anything. Once you show me a game in which forums arent pretty much all complaints and whining about anything and everything.....you may have a point.
Metacritic user rating is 5.3 based on 99 ratings thus far. I gave it a 6. I might like it more or less in next week or so.
I don't think you actually can judge a MMO expansion in 3 days and some uncomplete betas. Now, I am not saying that it deserves higher points (or lower) but it takes at least 6 weeks before you have played enough. The last Wow expansion got really high scores the first weeks but became less and less popular with time and the other way around is far from unlikely as well.
Don't post scores before you at least got a weeks gameplay in the final release please, even that is unfair but then you have far more clue than after 3 days at least.
I will give it a score eventually, but that will be at least a month from now when I am certain.
Wildstar got hyper scores. And, well, rest is history.
Not that MC is always wrong, but usually, very unrelieable, especially at launch.
I was thinking about buying it but good god the fanbois in here are terrible defending things that are very untrue. Rift nor GW2 started public questing at all it was warhammer online and rift just made them mobile. Guild wars 2 events are no different than rifts they spawn based on triggers. Action Combat has been in most single player games way before GW2 was even thought about. Not to mention leveling loot was in other games as well before GW2 like EQ2. Man I understand defending your game because you love it but good grief at least try to back up your facts or do a fact check. Also Bully is right majority of the threads on their boards is complaining about grinding and gated content to the point that Anet said they were removing some obstacles to get into certain areas. I think some of these fans just play there game alt tab out , and then come post some nonsene if they see someone critiquing it here.
Dynamic events.. not public events. WO's events were just static on a timer and exactly the same every time regardless of the outcome. You couldn't even fail them, they would stay in the same state until someone else came along to complete them, hence NOT dynamic. No one is fanboi-ing. You're just using that label to justify your own point of view. I have plenty of issues with the game, such as sPvP getting very little in this expansion, but everything you've tried to contradict here is just wrong, you are just plain wrong... either because you didn't understand what others meant or you're basing opinions on things you haven't properly experienced first hand. Whether or not someone is a fanboi doesn't change that. I think you need to do a fact check yourself or at least learn about the game before trying to slate what others have said. I don't care if other people like the game or not.. and I really don't care which game did what first, really doesn't matter. What I don't like is those people giving out misinformation to those thinking about trying it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Quite incorrect. There is only one way to advance in the new HoT masteries. That is only by doing the same PVE events in the new zone area over and over. You do not have a choice.
People have already expressed this complaint in threads such as this one that plague the official forums.
If you are perfectly happy with GW2 then getting HoT is probably a no brainer, but, if you are not particularly invested in the game then no, i doubt whether the new expansion will change that.
If you are perfectly happy with GW2 then getting HoT is probably a no brainer, but, if you are not particularly invested in the game then no, i doubt whether the new expansion will change that.
^ This guy know what he's talking about. But that's pretty much valid for every game. Doubt the expansion of Witcher 3 was made to draw in tons of new players.
Also about the link @AzurePower posted. I've also noticed that you liked SAB, when it was up at least. The reason I'm bringing it up is because there were people complaining about it too. You see, not everyone likes 8-bit MMORPGs Does this means that SAB was complete and utter failure? I think not. I quite enjoyed it myself and hope they'll have another go at it in the near future. It's way better April's Fools than the last airplane animation in cities we had last time around alright.
If you are perfectly happy with GW2 then getting HoT is probably a no brainer, but, if you are not particularly invested in the game then no, i doubt whether the new expansion will change that.
this is nothing like the core game
+STOs last expansion gave me more content without charging a dime
many of us are truly disappointed
i spent 100s of hours on my main toon, but somehow he still feels a lot weaker,
I haven't picked GW2's expac up yet. But only because I'm currently playing through SWTOR Kotfe. I do plan on picking it up sometime in Nov. Most likely after I finish Starcraft 2 : Void.
Metacritic user rating is 5.3 based on 99 ratings thus far. I gave it a 6. I might like it more or less in next week or so.
More than half of it are 9s and 10s and the under half of it are 0s & 1s (mostly complaining that you have to play the game to get stuff).
Not a very helpful place to go by.
Yeah, Metacritic does suffer from 0 or 10 syndrome. Most forms of entertainment are never a 0 or a 10, yet the people who post scores on these sites tend to deal only in absolutes: "bestest game ever, 10", or "worstest game ever, 0".
Events.. although Rift did these first the approach is very different. TBH though I think Rift did them better, less scripted, but many would disagree.
No trinity.
Introducing ways for players to want to play together even though they don't know each other... without making them actively choose to do it.
Weapon skills/Weapon Swapping.
Real underwater combat with it's own set of skills to use.
Dungeon paths, 8 dungeons was actually 32.
Fractals.
Always personal loot.
Personal gathering.
There's many more...
Innovate does not mean invent.
Nothing on that list was done by Gw2 first ...
1.
Events -laughable , many games have done this dating back to Asherons Call ...Warhammer , Rift .. Nothing inovative
2. Trinity - Laughable ... UO had no trinity 17 years ago .. Asherons Call as well ... Nothing Innovative
3..lmfao really so weak not even worth a reply.. nothing Innovative
4.. Weapon Swapping with skills ... errr UO again
5. Real Underwater combat ... Even EQ had underwater combat and it was very real ... Placing a different set of pixels in your hand with a new bloom effect .. Is not innovative (see stripe on TP)
6 . Dungeon Paths .. Laughable several games did this prior to GW2 .. nothing innovative
7.Fractals ... lol really .. same as above lil dungeons with stages .. Done before .. Nothing innovative
8.Personal Loot .. many games did this prior to GW2 .. Nothing innovative
9.Personal Gathering .. Many games again . give personal loot and carfting mats , long before GW2 ..
Innovate doe have a meaning tho .. and nothing on your list applies
Save the money for new Fallout game. You will thank me later. (my wife bought it against my advice and now she regrets it. According to her maybe worth 20 bucks for the content it offers).
That is old criticism. The current criticism is that it takes too long. You have at least some 60+ hours of content. That is way more than most games one can buy.
Please stop telling us what we think is worth our money or not? given your track record on GW2 forums and the way you jump on anything that criticises this game, i have zero interest in what you have to say.
Folks bitched about having all weapons skills available to you too soon in vanilla GW2.
ANet changed it up and the best folks can do is toss out "GATED"
I swear every game is subjected to this and hammered by fucking divas.
Yes, it's gated! You have to make an effort and play the game to unlock content/progression. No one said you had to be good at it, unless you're obviously bad.
If this is enough to keep you from dropping $50. Thank god! You are doing many of us a huge favor.
Events.. although Rift did these first the approach is very different. TBH though I think Rift did them better, less scripted, but many would disagree.
No trinity.
Introducing ways for players to want to play together even though they don't know each other... without making them actively choose to do it.
Weapon skills/Weapon Swapping.
Real underwater combat with it's own set of skills to use.
Dungeon paths, 8 dungeons was actually 32.
Fractals.
Always personal loot.
Personal gathering.
There's many more...
Innovate does not mean invent.
Nothing on that list was done by Gw2 first ...
Innovation is not always about something BRAND fucking NEW!
It can be about making a more effective product or process ...ect.
Gw2 was never the 1st MMO invented. They made their product better than a lot of MMO's.
Revenant........That is from the Necro? Necro is my favorite GW2 class.
It's an entirely new class. It rounds out the third heavy armour class option. It can use a sword (main and offhand), hammer, axe (offhand), mace (mainhand), staff, shield (offhand), and spear for the underwater weapon.
It has some shadowstep (teleport) skills, melee skills, and some interesting aoe conditionals. It has Dwarf (Jalis Ironhammer), Demon (Mallyx the Unyielding), Centaur (Ventari), and Assassin (Shiro Tagachi) as skill sets. Specializations are Corruption, Retribution, Salvation, and Devastation. The elite specializations are pretty cool.
Ahh, thank you. However, should I decide to buy it, I'd probably just stick with my Necro. I've always loved it's versatility. This sounds fun, But I honestly don't think I'd have a whole new 80 levels in me to do over again.
But I'm still in the wait and see phase with this.
PvP with your Necro and save your tombs for for your next toons.
Don't get me wrong the game is fun, is it worth what you get for $50? No, i think it should have been a free patch not a fee. Maybe im just spoiled playing warcraft so much, but i feel that anet is still half ass with their content.
Hands down worst argument ever!
10yr vs 3yr game content.
WoW Expac were never free until they started bundling them up recently.
If this is what Anet rolled out for HoT content, the next 7 years looks very promising.
Events.. although Rift did these first the approach is very different. TBH though I think Rift did them better, less scripted, but many would disagree.
No trinity.
Introducing ways for players to want to play together even though they don't know each other... without making them actively choose to do it.
Weapon skills/Weapon Swapping.
Real underwater combat with it's own set of skills to use.
Dungeon paths, 8 dungeons was actually 32.
Fractals.
Always personal loot.
Personal gathering.
There's many more...
Innovate does not mean invent.
Nothing on that list was done by Gw2 first ...
1.
Events -laughable , many games have done this dating back to Asherons Call ...Warhammer , Rift .. Nothing inovative
2. Trinity - Laughable ... UO had no trinity 17 years ago .. Asherons Call as well ... Nothing Innovative
3..lmfao really so weak not even worth a reply.. nothing Innovative
4.. Weapon Swapping with skills ... errr UO again
5. Real Underwater combat ... Even EQ had underwater combat and it was very real ... Placing a different set of pixels in your hand with a new bloom effect .. Is not innovative (see stripe on TP)
6 . Dungeon Paths .. Laughable several games did this prior to GW2 .. nothing innovative
7.Fractals ... lol really .. same as above lil dungeons with stages .. Done before .. Nothing innovative
8.Personal Loot .. many games did this prior to GW2 .. Nothing innovative
9.Personal Gathering .. Many games again . give personal loot and carfting mats , long before GW2 ..
Innovate doe have a meaning tho .. and nothing on your list applies
You still going now that you've figured out what innovate means? Again.. you keep saying something else did it first... Innovate does not mean invent. Shall I repeat that again the next time you post? It means taking something and either 1. Adding things to it 2. Modernising it (which GW2 did with almost everything) or 3. Changing certain aspects of it. Innovate does not necessarily mean made better. Saying GW2 is like EQ, AC or UO is absolutely ridiculous. It isn't and when you can come to terms with what I'm saying here you'll know that it's an innovative game.
Is GW2 like the games you claim to have done these things before? Is the underwater combat in EQ like in GW2? When was personal loot done in an MMO before? I don't mean allocated loot, I don't mean roundhouse corpse looting while in a group and I don't mean rolling... I mean personal loot.
If you can admit that GW2 isn't like the other games you claim did everything innovative that GW2 does first.. then just move on mate. You're properly wasting your time. If you think GW2 is like UO, EQ and AC then you might as well stop trying to convince others with your way of thinking because it is clearly wrong.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Events.. although Rift did these first the approach is very different. TBH though I think Rift did them better, less scripted, but many would disagree.
No trinity.
Introducing ways for players to want to play together even though they don't know each other... without making them actively choose to do it.
Weapon skills/Weapon Swapping.
Real underwater combat with it's own set of skills to use.
Dungeon paths, 8 dungeons was actually 32.
Fractals.
Always personal loot.
Personal gathering.
There's many more...
Innovate does not mean invent.
Nothing on that list was done by Gw2 first ...
1.
Events -laughable , many games have done this dating back to Asherons Call ...Warhammer , Rift .. Nothing inovative
2. Trinity - Laughable ... UO had no trinity 17 years ago .. Asherons Call as well ... Nothing Innovative
3..lmfao really so weak not even worth a reply.. nothing Innovative
4.. Weapon Swapping with skills ... errr UO again
5. Real Underwater combat ... Even EQ had underwater combat and it was very real ... Placing a different set of pixels in your hand with a new bloom effect .. Is not innovative (see stripe on TP)
6 . Dungeon Paths .. Laughable several games did this prior to GW2 .. nothing innovative
7.Fractals ... lol really .. same as above lil dungeons with stages .. Done before .. Nothing innovative
8.Personal Loot .. many games did this prior to GW2 .. Nothing innovative
9.Personal Gathering .. Many games again . give personal loot and carfting mats , long before GW2 ..
Innovate doe have a meaning tho .. and nothing on your list applies
I am going to jump in here. I need to make a few statements about GW2. But 1st, I will admit, I played the game a lot, I have extra slots so i have every class to a minimum of level 50 OK, only my Ranger isn't 80. Everything else is 80 and i have 2 Necromancers. When Fractals 1st came out, I had max Agony Resist on my Engineer and Guardian. At that time, only Accessories and back pieces were Ascended. I really liked the game.
Now that I have said that, I feel I need to be clear on something, One of my biggest criticisms of GW2 was around their "innovation" Their motivation was all wrong. They were to focused on creating a game that should have been called "NOTWoW Online" Their innovation revolved to heavily around this. INstead of looking where things truly needed improvement, they threw everything out. Even the stuff that was proven to work and didn't need improvement. But becase that's how it worked for WoW, GW2 was going to do it differently. They shot themselves in the foot. All their innovation was around re inventing the wheel. Much of it didn't actually overcome an obstacle, it was just supposed to be "NotWoW" That means, their new wheel, didn't spin any faster. Almost everything GW2 "Innovated" came with a significant trade off that hurt the game.
I'll pick a few from the list.
Events? What was one of the biggest complaints about GW2? As I recall People really weren't embracing the whole concept of the personal story. But that's the trade off for Dynamic Events. What they couldn't do in the open world, they did with the PS.
The No Trinity? For as much as they made it work, they broke it too. Again, the system brought as much wrong with it as it did right...A Trade Off
Weapon Skills? That wasn't really innovation To be fair, Anarchy Online had equipped weapon based skills back in 2001.
Personal nodes? Yeah, the supply was overwhelming and demand went to shit so it became pointless to gather. WTF when you could buy it from the TP for little more than vendor trash.
I'll stop there, but IMO, for many new things that GW2 brought to the table, they lost something valuable from it.
I also want to be fair about the game.....meaning, I still want to and am leaning towards buying the expansion. I think it would at least leave me feeling I got my money's worth.
Comments
The Mastery system is fun, and basically makes you want to do pretty much everything since it's basically works like a XP bar. XP boosters seem to help out too, and I have a ton of birthday boosters sitting around (I have 12 level 80s atm). The big three you need are gliding, updraft training and bouncy mushroom use, all of which are easily obtainable within the first hour or two of entering the new areas. Plus with the system being account wide, it doesn't feel like much of a grind.
The complaints I am seeing on the forums are seemingly from people expecting the content to be faceroll. ANet stated on a number of occasions that the new content was going to be more difficult than old work tyria, and that's turned out to be true. You can run the old "zerker" meta, but most will struggle with the glassiness of it. I have found myself using somewhat tankier gear, like mixing knights and valkyrie stats for more toughness and vitality without sacrificing a ton of dps. I have also found myself switching to my ranged weapon more often to keep out of danger zones and either finishing a mob off, or weakening them to move in for a quick melee kill.
People need to learn to step away from the glass cannon mentality and move into builds with more sustain.
Don't post scores before you at least got a weeks gameplay in the final release please, even that is unfair but then you have far more clue than after 3 days at least.
I will give it a score eventually, but that will be at least a month from now when I am certain.
People have already expressed this complaint in threads such as this one that plague the official forums.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/hot/How-would-you-rate-the-HoT-Fun-Factor/first
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
official forums have been full pf complaints about anything and everything for last 3 years.
forums dont represent anything. Once you show me a game in which forums arent pretty much all complaints and whining about anything and everything.....you may have a point.
Not that MC is always wrong, but usually, very unrelieable, especially at launch.
If you want to unlock the elite spec you can play WvW.
And of course there are players with max specialization by day 2.
OMG the grind.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Also about the link @AzurePower posted. I've also noticed that you liked SAB, when it was up at least. The reason I'm bringing it up is because there were people complaining about it too. You see, not everyone likes 8-bit MMORPGs
this is nothing like the core game
+STOs last expansion gave me more content without charging a dime
many of us are truly disappointed
i spent 100s of hours on my main toon, but somehow he still feels a lot weaker,
than the day i created him
not much of a progression
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
2. Trinity - Laughable ... UO had no trinity 17 years ago .. Asherons Call as well ... Nothing Innovative
3..lmfao really so weak not even worth a reply.. nothing Innovative
4.. Weapon Swapping with skills ... errr UO again
5. Real Underwater combat ... Even EQ had underwater combat and it was very real ... Placing a different set of pixels in your hand with a new bloom effect .. Is not innovative (see stripe on TP)
6 . Dungeon Paths .. Laughable several games did this prior to GW2 .. nothing innovative
7.Fractals ... lol really .. same as above lil dungeons with stages .. Done before .. Nothing innovative
8.Personal Loot .. many games did this prior to GW2 .. Nothing innovative
9.Personal Gathering .. Many games again . give personal loot and carfting mats , long before GW2 ..
Innovate doe have a meaning tho .. and nothing on your list applies
ANet changed it up and the best folks can do is toss out "GATED"
I swear every game is subjected to this and hammered by fucking divas.
Yes, it's gated! You have to make an effort and play the game to unlock content/progression. No one said you had to be good at it, unless you're obviously bad.
If this is enough to keep you from dropping $50. Thank god! You are doing many of us a huge favor.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Innovation is not always about something BRAND fucking NEW!
It can be about making a more effective product or process ...ect.
Gw2 was never the 1st MMO invented. They made their product better than a lot of MMO's.
10yr vs 3yr game content.
WoW Expac were never free until they started bundling them up recently.
If this is what Anet rolled out for HoT content, the next 7 years looks very promising.
You still going now that you've figured out what innovate means? Again.. you keep saying something else did it first... Innovate does not mean invent. Shall I repeat that again the next time you post? It means taking something and either 1. Adding things to it 2. Modernising it (which GW2 did with almost everything) or 3. Changing certain aspects of it. Innovate does not necessarily mean made better. Saying GW2 is like EQ, AC or UO is absolutely ridiculous. It isn't and when you can come to terms with what I'm saying here you'll know that it's an innovative game.
Is GW2 like the games you claim to have done these things before? Is the underwater combat in EQ like in GW2? When was personal loot done in an MMO before? I don't mean allocated loot, I don't mean roundhouse corpse looting while in a group and I don't mean rolling... I mean personal loot.
If you can admit that GW2 isn't like the other games you claim did everything innovative that GW2 does first.. then just move on mate. You're properly wasting your time. If you think GW2 is like UO, EQ and AC then you might as well stop trying to convince others with your way of thinking because it is clearly wrong.
Now that I have said that, I feel I need to be clear on something, One of my biggest criticisms of GW2 was around their "innovation" Their motivation was all wrong. They were to focused on creating a game that should have been called "NOTWoW Online" Their innovation revolved to heavily around this. INstead of looking where things truly needed improvement, they threw everything out. Even the stuff that was proven to work and didn't need improvement. But becase that's how it worked for WoW, GW2 was going to do it differently. They shot themselves in the foot. All their innovation was around re inventing the wheel. Much of it didn't actually overcome an obstacle, it was just supposed to be "NotWoW" That means, their new wheel, didn't spin any faster. Almost everything GW2 "Innovated" came with a significant trade off that hurt the game.
I'll pick a few from the list.
Events? What was one of the biggest complaints about GW2? As I recall People really weren't embracing the whole concept of the personal story. But that's the trade off for Dynamic Events. What they couldn't do in the open world, they did with the PS.
The No Trinity? For as much as they made it work, they broke it too. Again, the system brought as much wrong with it as it did right...A Trade Off
Weapon Skills? That wasn't really innovation To be fair, Anarchy Online had equipped weapon based skills back in 2001.
Personal nodes? Yeah, the supply was overwhelming and demand went to shit so it became pointless to gather. WTF when you could buy it from the TP for little more than vendor trash.
I'll stop there, but IMO, for many new things that GW2 brought to the table, they lost something valuable from it.
I also want to be fair about the game.....meaning, I still want to and am leaning towards buying the expansion. I think it would at least leave me feeling I got my money's worth.
but fews people have fun with