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The Lack of Delivered Content
laxie
Member RarePosts: 1,123
in Star Citizen
First of all, let me say this is not a bashing on SC thread. There is a lot we don't know, lot we can't answer. At the same time, I am genuinely interested what you make of this.
About 1.5 years ago, Arena Commander was released. I think quite a bit of content was delivered then. We could finally fly around, fight AI, fight each other. You could follow the development, clearly see they have been putting a lot of work into making this happen. Since then, little significant content has been added into the playable game though. What's more, the deadlines they have been proposing have been missed completely.
I know there supposedly is a lot of content coming soon. Perhaps that is the case (I don't know). What I do know is that many of the systems that were claimed to be "1-2 months away" are now still being concepted out (and still 1-2 months away). I am talking about data persistence and shopping (which was said to be on the next months schedule in a recent dev blog), even though this was "1 month away" in Spring. Mutli-crew stations, which were recently said to be in the concept stage, though they were 1-2 months away for release in the Summer.
I am not saying it is a scam. I like the vision and think Arena Commander is nice. Clearly they have a lot of employees working on something.
But what is incomprehensible to me, is the lack of delivered stuff (and the greatly misestimated dates). How can you say planet shopping is coming in 1 month? To make that statement, you need to be fairly confident. You know you have X amount of relevant work done, X people assigned to the task - you deduce that with it being in the works and X amount of progress, it is 1 month away.
Then fast forward a year later, it is now coming in 1-2 months?
I just can't understand this. I was recently part of a team planning an event for 2000 guests. We said each visitor would get a 60 page magazine. We had about 6 months to do this task. So we broke down the plan, had each page laid out. When it was nearly done, we gave the company an estimate ("Ok, we have most pages done. We spoke to the printer, we can give you a draft copy in 2 weeks".)
Now imagine they ask me 3 months later (this is 6x the time I said I needed). I tell them it is coming in 1-2 weeks. So they ask me another 3 months later (6x the time from the second estimate), I tell them the pages are in concept stage and it is coming in 4 weeks. This scenario just doesn't make sense to me.
Was I not saying the truth when I gave them the original estimate? Perhaps I didn't have a magazine at all and was hoping I could wing it in 2 weeks. Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better? More importantly, what have I been working on the past 6 months? I was clearly assigned to do the magazine, saying I am working on it the whole time (that it is 1-2 weeks away). Yet, there is no magazine and I am saying it is now 4 weeks away, in the concept stage. Was I working on something else than the magazine?
Video game development is a fluid, ever changing process. They are perhaps working on the foundations to make other stuff happen. I get that.
But 3 years into the development, you say feature A is coming in 1 month, you are working on it. 1 year later, said feature A is coming in 2 months.
What is your take on this?
About 1.5 years ago, Arena Commander was released. I think quite a bit of content was delivered then. We could finally fly around, fight AI, fight each other. You could follow the development, clearly see they have been putting a lot of work into making this happen. Since then, little significant content has been added into the playable game though. What's more, the deadlines they have been proposing have been missed completely.
I know there supposedly is a lot of content coming soon. Perhaps that is the case (I don't know). What I do know is that many of the systems that were claimed to be "1-2 months away" are now still being concepted out (and still 1-2 months away). I am talking about data persistence and shopping (which was said to be on the next months schedule in a recent dev blog), even though this was "1 month away" in Spring. Mutli-crew stations, which were recently said to be in the concept stage, though they were 1-2 months away for release in the Summer.
I am not saying it is a scam. I like the vision and think Arena Commander is nice. Clearly they have a lot of employees working on something.
But what is incomprehensible to me, is the lack of delivered stuff (and the greatly misestimated dates). How can you say planet shopping is coming in 1 month? To make that statement, you need to be fairly confident. You know you have X amount of relevant work done, X people assigned to the task - you deduce that with it being in the works and X amount of progress, it is 1 month away.
Then fast forward a year later, it is now coming in 1-2 months?
I just can't understand this. I was recently part of a team planning an event for 2000 guests. We said each visitor would get a 60 page magazine. We had about 6 months to do this task. So we broke down the plan, had each page laid out. When it was nearly done, we gave the company an estimate ("Ok, we have most pages done. We spoke to the printer, we can give you a draft copy in 2 weeks".)
Now imagine they ask me 3 months later (this is 6x the time I said I needed). I tell them it is coming in 1-2 weeks. So they ask me another 3 months later (6x the time from the second estimate), I tell them the pages are in concept stage and it is coming in 4 weeks. This scenario just doesn't make sense to me.
Was I not saying the truth when I gave them the original estimate? Perhaps I didn't have a magazine at all and was hoping I could wing it in 2 weeks. Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better? More importantly, what have I been working on the past 6 months? I was clearly assigned to do the magazine, saying I am working on it the whole time (that it is 1-2 weeks away). Yet, there is no magazine and I am saying it is now 4 weeks away, in the concept stage. Was I working on something else than the magazine?
Video game development is a fluid, ever changing process. They are perhaps working on the foundations to make other stuff happen. I get that.
But 3 years into the development, you say feature A is coming in 1 month, you are working on it. 1 year later, said feature A is coming in 2 months.
What is your take on this?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
so what was your point?
One side will see it as an attack the other will call it gospel and here we go again.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/
There are two ways to look at this.
1. The hard stuff is behind this project and now they can reap the rewards of all that work and start pushing new systems out quickly.
2. This unplanned systems changes (some would call it mismanagement) has drained the project of time and money and made delivery of the game as promised impossible.
I really don't know which of those is the truth but my instincts is it's a little of both.
That makes creating a computer game a lot more unpredictable. Especially when we're talking about a project like Star Citizen where devs are trying to implement some features that haven't really been done before. They need to invent a way to do something, then redo it 3 times because the first attempts weren't good enough.
That doesn't excuse them failing so badly with their delivery estimates, though. That's just bad management and false promises.
plus THIS >>>Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better?>>>
I suspect that Chris Roberts was in certain areas heavily focussed on details and then lacked the time for the bigger picture .... until his brother set him straight again and gave the overall project once again more of an organised structure. While Chris may have favored the distributed "everyone is doing everything 24 h a day handing over from one studio to the other" Erin seems to have gotten his will of reorganizing all the studios along certain areas of expertise (CryEngine in Frankfurt, Audio in UK etc. ... moving positions around between studios to get a certain critical mass for work of better quality).
Did this take extra unplanned time ? You bet.
Will the project still be within the 5 year timeframe that I and many others expected since 2012 ... i think yes.
Have fun
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Still makes me wonder how a veteran of decades of game design can make the same mistakes, again and again. It is simple. Don't give out detailed release dates. Again and again. Well, unless it is driving something else (like ship sales?).
Roberts is a mediocre project manager and game designer imo. I'd bet a ton of money was wasted due to poor planning, and a lot was spent on high ticket items that probably could have been done cheaper and more efficiently. Roberts reputation (again, imo) is seriously inflated. Except in the PR and marketing departments. There he is great. I'd agree that bringing in Erin is a smart move, as he's produced games in the last 20 years, and can probably tone down some of Chris's extravagances.
I wouldn't vote for an SC MMO by 2017, at least not one in reasonably working condition. The big test there will be whether they can deliver the standalone game, in a competent fashion, by something like this time next year. That will tell a lot. I'd wait til then before seriously investing.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
.
This have been a good conversation
People generally have the same good/bad ideas over and over again.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you look at even the money scam side of things,even the ships are sometimes not delivered as working.
Honestly how could you sell it like that,that wouldn't fly anywhere in the real world.
I think ignoring another large summary or topic discussion,i will just have to say that i firmly believe that Chris does not know anything about making a MMO,he just knows his old shallow simple type Xwing game design and nothing more.He is trying to WIng it as he goes and why he constantly runs into problems.
On that same note,that is why he went the route of hoping to get gamer's to give him the money,he has no deadlines or people to answer to.If a professional publisher or knowledgeable investor was involved he would come out looking real bad,but he has none of that to answer to or explain things to.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm quite certain that SC hit some major roadblocks in trying to implement/integrate various parts of the game design. Most likely they tried to make the engine do things it was not designed to do, and then had to customise or redesign features or even abandon certain ideas/elements and come up with entirely new ones.
But it may not be in a project's best interest to publicly announce every setback and challenge faced by the team. Today's Twitter-driven reality can easily blow such honesty way out of proportion, specially on a headline project like SC.
Ironically, gamers used-to vilify publishers for forcing game development projects to stick to a schedule. Now they cry because nobody can force the self-funded KS projects to "deliver on time". Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
Well, if that's the case, Roberts shouldn't be spouting out wildly inaccurate release dates. Or provide countless detailed videos about the game's production. The guy is supposed to be this brilliant veteran designer, yet he doesn't get this? Unless, of course, the public pronouncements help boost sales....
Roberts has had games that were delayed by multiple years. Games that appeared on 'Vaporware of the Year' lists. Some, multiple times. And that was when he had the support of major game publishers. Digital Anvil, his personal company, never released a game he'd produced during the four years of his tenure.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Seriously though, its pretty good. Trying a little too hard to be Firefly at times, but i enjoyed it a lot.
Another one is good that just came out this season is called Killjoys.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Thanks, I've added Killjoys to my watch list. It sounds similar to Dark Matter based on the plot summary at IMDB.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
It is not.
The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.
What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.
Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line. Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Real quick, Star Citizen is:
A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
No Subscriptions
No Pay to Win
The campaign also says that estimated delivery of the final product is November 2014.
It is now November 2015 and they have raised way more money than they ever thought they would. So why is the game a year late with no launch date in sight?
Chalking that up to "development" doesn't cut it. Their budget grew by leaps and bounds, yet they have proven incapable of making the game in anything close to the time frame they estimated. That's not to say that they won't eventually make the game and that it won't be great, but I don't see how you can give them a pass to this point.
"We need a hammer."
"Ok, we'll start working on a hammer factory right away ..."
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
How many games deliver all features expected or stated? I know that Elite: Dangerous didn't deliver their Offline game. Even with published games, I know that NHL didn't deliver a franchise mode one year. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, obviously, but if you're setting a standard, then is this a standard that you uphold for all games you play? Or do you have a chip on your shoulder?
As far as delivery date is concerned. Again, games are delayed quite frequently. Also, the scope of the game changed during and after the crowd-funding. I didn't hear the yelling and screaming about the increased scope while these scope increases were happening. It was all about making the game into something that the community really wanted to see, not just a simplified space flight sim. That is, apparently, what the community wanted. Granted, I'm sure there are those who were more interested in having a game released on time, but the majority wanted a larger game and, with that, comes a longer schedule. In response to that increase in scope, they have began offering refunds to backers who aren't happy which is pretty nice, I think.
I really have a difficult time with armchair software developers with no idea what it takes to develop a game. Where a character might take a month to finish or an environment might take months to complete. Never mind that they're apparently trying to do something "impossible". I can appreciate your point about them missing their estimate, but I'd much rather see the game delivered with the features as it sits right now than a simplistic game devoid of any innovation. If you don't feel the same then I'd definitely request a refund. Otherwise, 2016 seems to be the year they're putting out there right now.
Crazkanuk
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Technically there already is a subscription for this game, 10 and 20/month options and pay to win can be debated with the ship sales. Everything else is still being waited on.
Bottom line is this, people bitch and moan cause games come out half arsed and basically suck but when someone tires to do it right and actually take their time.... people bitch and moan about it taking to long cry cry cry.
People making these games are gonna lose either way according to all the forum warriors (I include myself in that btw) so they might as well do as they think best regardless of the moaning.
That said the massive amount of money they raised beyond what they asked for in KS pretty much shows us they are doing something right and people would rather wait on them to get things right rather than rush out a half arsed game.
I am a fan of elite dangerous but tbh feel they took the opposite route of SC and tbh I am not happy with the end result. A bare-bones game where grouping (winging up) is tedious and doesn't work all that well, shallow game play, background simulation that is broken and CGs that more often than not have serious issues. I wont even get into "expansion seasonal" pricing....
I would rather wait.
And that OP is my take on it and how I feel about it.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
There will never be an actual game, but in like 20 years the hypothetical game will be absolutely mind-blowing.
And it seems the backers in this thread will be perfectly happy. It's a win/win.