Just to put your mind at ease, here is an example of the limitations that I would put on a free trial account:
No /tell No /shout No /auction No /ooc Limited /say - max 1 per minute Limited /trade - only with free trial players Limited /invite - max 1 per minute maybe w/ only trial players Limited zone access - only to the starter city and surrounding zones containing 1-10 content
Chat should be mostly restricted to /reply to players that sent them tells, or /groupsay to players that agreed to group with them.
The account should be active up to level 10, and expire 1 month after account creation.
side note: I also think free trial characters (that don't subscribe) should be wiped after 6 months and their character name released.
Given those restrictions, a trial player would have little opportunity to cause trouble.
Just to put your mind at ease, here is an example of the limitations that I would put on a free trial account:
No /tell No /shout No /auction No /ooc Limited /say - max 1 per minute Limited /trade - only with free trial players Limited /invite - max 1 per minute maybe w/ only trial players Limited zone access - only to the starter city and surrounding zones containing 1-10 content
Chat should be mostly restricted to /reply to players that sent them tells, or /groupsay to players that agreed to group with them.
The account should be active up to level 10, and expire 1 month after account creation.
side note: I also think free trial characters (that don't subscribe) should be wiped after 6 months and their character name released.
Given those restrictions, a trial player would have little opportunity to cause trouble.
The chat restrictions aren't an issue as one if need can easily /ignore or turn off a chat channel. The trade and invite limitations aren't the problem here either.
It is the having to deal with them physically, that is harass you in person (ie running around you into you, blocking you, attacking your mobs, training you with more mobs, etc...).
Add in boxing and botting, and you get rare camps perma camped by griefers and gold sellers, etc...
There are tons of ways to cause trouble (loot stealing, in group harassment, etc) and when there is no means to stop the person, no means of consequence (CC banned, lost sub time, etc...), then it will be a problem.
I can list you numerous ways they can do things. You can't ban the IP as they can easily use numerous proxy services that have blocks of IPs. This also creates problems as with no cost incurred from accounts, box sales, or subs, boxing becomes a no cost solution for any and all which creates the issue of people soloing the content.
See, I don't want to play with them. I want nothing to do with them, they will be a problem. That is not to say that these poorly behaved folks don't exist on a pay service, but it does serve to "weed" out some of the people who have no intention of paying for the game.
Now I am certainly not saying they shouldn't have such a features on special servers, but I don't want to play with them. I don't want to spend the first 10 levels of my experience with Pantheon fighting off FTP idiots who have nothing better to do than gimmick the game because they hate Brad and Pantheon. I want to build social reliance that comes with all the responsibilities of such. Your first 10 levels is often where you will start running into people, grouping with them, etc... FTP isn't a good start for such as a person who is unwilling to pay to play the game is not serious enough to waste time with.
Again, I am not saying there shouldn't be such an offering, but let people choose to avoid a server that provides it. I don't think that is too unreasonable to ask for, do you? I mean, after all... if they are thinking about special rule set servers, do we really need a FTP offering for lets say the hardcore server? Like I said, a server that caters to such would allow new people to "try" the game, but not saddle people with those fly by night types and while some may decide to play Pantheon seriously, most will pass through without even a modicum of concern for the game.
I'd hope they'd be limited to only /reply and /group, and only have access to 1-10 content near the city they start at.
I don't think that will be enough. It is likely most of the dungeons and rare spawns will be perma camped by gold farmers and bots/boxing groups, etc... Then you have the FTP trolls, harassers, and griefers following around people and messing with them. Just think of every bad thing that you could do in EQ, that was controlled by reputation and think about how a FTP player has no consequence, no monetary expense, etc... and it will be bad. Every FTP game I have tried is littered with such, Pantheon will be no different and I think it is a bad decision to force people who want to pay to play the game from the start to have to play with the FTP crowd.
What I would suggest is that they make a special server that is only for FTP players and contains the content that they want to be allowed for FTP. Then, if the person decides to pay to play the game, they are then moved to a pay to play server. This way, pay to play never has to deal with the numerous issues that will come from FTP content.
I don't know how others feel, but it is a major turn off to play with the FTP crowd. I have been there, done that, and it is why I don't play MMOs these days.
Don't think this will be necessary at all. Without the ability to spam, and access to only a few zones, there is very little a trial account can do. What, they're gonna grief a newbie dungeon are they? Are they going to spam emote to people in town? I mean honestly, there just isn't that much they can do.
Never had a problem in any game with harassment in chat. In fact, my habit in most modern games while I still played was to log in and first turn off all the social chat channels, contact my friends make a guild and we rarely talked or dealt with anyone outside of our guild. So chat harassment was never an issue.
You have to think about things past chat use. In EQ, you could block doors, does pantheon have such a mechanic? In EQ, you could train people, you could kill steal, etc...
With FTP comes unlimited accounts, which means boxing/botting, so now you are competing with one person for group spawns and it cost the FTP nothing.
With FTP there is zero accountability. You and I have discussed numerous topics where we assured people that social realms would regulate the abusers. I agree, but not with FTP as there is no consequence. FTP doesn't care if they get thrown out, banned, blacklisted, etc... They will simply make another toon to exploit and harass as they did before.
Free comes with zero accountability. At least with a pay account, they have to come back with a new pay source and if they only accept credit cards or pay sources with personal identification, then this limits the broad abuse returning, not to mention the money loss by the abuser and gain by VR.
There is no reason for it not to be on a separate server, a "here, try out our game" server or the like. It is only a negative to put FTP players with pay players.
I don't know about others, but this would be a deal breaker for me personally. I have had too many issues with FTP games, I won't bother wasting 10 levels (of what is supposed to be long and meaningful play) running around with a bunch of people I refuse to play with today. Call it what you will, but I won't bother, not with a game that is even remotely like EQ.
I don't know about others, but this would be a deal breaker for me personally. I have had too many issues with FTP games, I won't bother wasting 10 levels (of what is supposed to be long and meaningful play) running around with a bunch of people I refuse to play with today. Call it what you will, but I won't bother, not with a game that is even remotely like EQ.
The game is barely in alpha and you're quitting if it deviates from your expectations on one feature?
Brad, I hope you get around to reading this. This is why your target market may need to be widened just a bit. If you put all your apples in the basket of customers who, if they don't get one thing they want they /ragequit, that's a pretty fickle customer base!
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but really thats much ado about nothing. Trial accounts will probably have access to a small fraction of the world. The opportunity to "grief" in the ways you described will be so limited, other than people playing alts, or other free players between levels 1 in 10, no one will even see these people. Its sounds like you think no legitimate player will ever try the game.
I'm personally much more concerned about ways that such accounts can be used to spam chat for gold and item selling services. That absolutely must be prevented, and players should not have to constantly put people on /ignore or opt out of chat channels like /ooc.
I guess we will have to wait and see whether a trial server is necessary. The whole idea behind not creating a separate trial island or trial server is that they want to show the player what the world is really like, with all its inhabitants, activities and common interactions intact. To put them on their own server will undoubtedly limit that experience.
I don't know about others, but this would be a deal breaker for me personally. I have had too many issues with FTP games, I won't bother wasting 10 levels (of what is supposed to be long and meaningful play) running around with a bunch of people I refuse to play with today. Call it what you will, but I won't bother, not with a game that is even remotely like EQ.
The game is barely in alpha and you're quitting if it deviates from your expectations on one feature?
Brad, I hope you get around to reading this. This is why your target market may need to be widened just a bit. If you put all your apples in the basket of customers who, if they don't get one thing they want they /ragequit, that's a pretty fickle customer base!
This is a discussion (as you so clearly pointed out to me in another thread), am I not to share me likes, dislikes and things that will make me not want to play? I notice you did not meet one of the issues I have with this "feature". I made some very specific points of concern and yet you attended to none of them.
You did however use this as a means to again push your agenda. Brad spent two whole posts explaining how we should be polite with people like you, how we should try to explain things, work with you and encourage you to see what this game has to offer, yet... you prove my point and work against his with this very response. In fact, you show your own words in a previous thread to be hypocritical as rather than just simply attending to the logic of the concerns I had, you dismissed them and whined to Brad about how he should not make games for his current niche.
I stated that I won't play a game if I have to wade through 10 levels of FTP garbage to get to the real game. I gave my reasons, explained them properly using logical process and I expect people if they are going to object to them, to do me the common courtesy of actually attending to the discussion rather than acting like a child running off to papa in hopes of gaining favor.
No Dullahan has been able to achieve this level of civil discourse, how about you come over to the adults table and join us? Or is that being too impolite in dealing with your oh so delicate nature?
Just to put your mind at ease, here is an example of the limitations that I would put on a free trial account:
No /tell No /shout No /auction No /ooc Limited /say - max 1 per minute Limited /trade - only with free trial players Limited /invite - max 1 per minute maybe w/ only trial players Limited zone access - only to the starter city and surrounding zones containing 1-10 content
Chat should be mostly restricted to /reply to players that sent them tells, or /groupsay to players that agreed to group with them.
The account should be active up to level 10, and expire 1 month after account creation.
side note: I also think free trial characters (that don't subscribe) should be wiped after 6 months and their character name released.
Given those restrictions, a trial player would have little opportunity to cause trouble.
The chat restrictions aren't an issue as one if need can easily /ignore or turn off a chat channel. The trade and invite limitations aren't the problem here either.
It is the having to deal with them physically, that is harass you in person (ie running around you into you, blocking you, attacking your mobs, training you with more mobs, etc...).
Add in boxing and botting, and you get rare camps perma camped by griefers and gold sellers, etc...
There are tons of ways to cause trouble (loot stealing, in group harassment, etc) and when there is no means to stop the person, no means of consequence (CC banned, lost sub time, etc...), then it will be a problem.
I can list you numerous ways they can do things. You can't ban the IP as they can easily use numerous proxy services that have blocks of IPs. This also creates problems as with no cost incurred from accounts, box sales, or subs, boxing becomes a no cost solution for any and all which creates the issue of people soloing the content.
See, I don't want to play with them. I want nothing to do with them, they will be a problem. That is not to say that these poorly behaved folks don't exist on a pay service, but it does serve to "weed" out some of the people who have no intention of paying for the game.
Now I am certainly not saying they shouldn't have such a features on special servers, but I don't want to play with them. I don't want to spend the first 10 levels of my experience with Pantheon fighting off FTP idiots who have nothing better to do than gimmick the game because they hate Brad and Pantheon. I want to build social reliance that comes with all the responsibilities of such. Your first 10 levels is often where you will start running into people, grouping with them, etc... FTP isn't a good start for such as a person who is unwilling to pay to play the game is not serious enough to waste time with.
Again, I am not saying there shouldn't be such an offering, but let people choose to avoid a server that provides it. I don't think that is too unreasonable to ask for, do you? I mean, after all... if they are thinking about special rule set servers, do we really need a FTP offering for lets say the hardcore server? Like I said, a server that caters to such would allow new people to "try" the game, but not saddle people with those fly by night types and while some may decide to play Pantheon seriously, most will pass through without even a modicum of concern for the game.
So are you speaking from experience or stereotype? To be honest, I've played multiple subscription MMORPGs and plenty of F2P games my assessment would be that this has very little to do with the model itself. See we actually encourage the behaviour because we now have things like twitch, youtube, etc. where being a raging a-hole isn't only accepted, but it's encouraged. It's comic relief. That being said, I've found that the F2P games I've played tend to have much better communities in general. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's that the value isn't tied to a subscription, so hanging out and just chilling isn't costing you anything. I remember sitting around in a raid, in WoW, for an hour before we even started anything. You can't do that now. Sorry, but you really don't have a clue about F2P. You sound like Donald Trump talking about crime.
As far as the question of value of effort vs buying character development. The buying aspect will always be something that appeals to a limited subset of people. If you're interested in that, great! However, I feel like many MMOs have concentrated on creating barriers for these groups, making it harder for them to level quickly. Not only is this futile, because people end up maxing level in 24 hours or less anyway, but it also creates massive barriers for others who aren't interested in that level grind. Honestly, I think that if they stick to the idea of a social-oriented game world, they'll be fine, but that means creating an environment where the trip to max level is 40 or 50 hours, not 300. Destiny is a great example of a pick-up-and-play game. It's easy to recruit people and have them playing with their friends in a matter of hours, which should be the whole idea of a social game.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but really thats much ado about nothing. Trial accounts will probably have access to a small fraction of the world. The opportunity to "grief" in the ways you described will be so limited, other than people playing alts, or other free players between levels 1 in 10, no one will even see these people. Its sounds like you think no legitimate player will ever try the game.
I'm personally much more concerned about ways that such accounts can be used to spam chat for gold and item selling services. That absolutely must be prevented, and players should not have to constantly put people on /ignore or opt out of chat channels like /ooc.
I guess we will have to wait and see whether a trial server is necessary. The whole idea behind not creating a separate trial island or trial server is that they want to show the player what the world is really like, with all its inhabitants, activities and common interactions intact. To put them on their own server will undoubtedly limit that experience.
It isn't an opinion Dullahan, these are very specific issues that have occurred in many other games and are likely to occur in this.
I am not sure how you don't think this will be a concern? You keep dismissing it like it won't be an issue, that it is "only" 10 levels, but 10 levels is supposed to be a long time.
There are many aspects, for instance:
1. Population issues with FTP are enormous. Keep in mind that they aren't preparing for millions of players, but a certain niche number. That does not mean that millions won't give it a go if the buzz gets out and it costs nothing to try. After all, FTP costs nothing but time and that is what FTP hoppers do, they hop from game to game.
2. Botting/Boxing. this is also an issue as there is no cost factor to multiple accounts, so anyone with the notion to try it will be able to and when we consider the ease of boxing these days, it will be much more accessible, which means more likely an issue with it. With FTP, it means more people having entire groups of PCs *solo* farming 1-10 content that is contested.
3. As I mentioned, there are numerous elements in game play that regardless of chatting, can be used to abuse (player collision, training, kill stealing, taunt wiping raids, etc...). With no consequence or regulating factor due to it being "free", this will create problems. Honestly, explain to me how a free account at low level in contested content with numerous mechanics that can cause issues with other players is not going to have a problem?
Spam and chat gold is not an issue, as I said I could always turn it off.. it is the least of worries in a game because proper technology these days and you can limit your chat to only selective people. The other things I mentioned you can't control, you will be at the mercy of the them and the games rules/mechanics.
Personally, I don't see it as possible to make a game like EQ with the freedom and openness of the system which relied on community policing as possible with FTP. There is zero risk/loss for the FTP player.
It doesn't have to be a special island, just a server with the content they are going to allow and when someone decides to start subbing, their character is auto-transferred to a pay server they select. This way, pay players don't deal with any of the "possible" abuses I mentioned from free players. Sure, there will still be those that exist on the pay servers, but not to the level that FTP has.
Of course you can express your likes and dislikes - curious at times as they may be. If you don't like FTP early levels, that's your prerogative, just as is your right to say so. No quarrel there.
But I am just surprised that as many pixels as you have expended railing against "mainstream" and "casual" gamers - who you contend suffer from a sense of entitlement, and who you argue require that games be redesigned to their personal needs in contravention of the game's tenants - that you would threaten to never play the game at all if you can't have your way on an issue that is fully in line with those tenants?
Pantheon says in the FAQ that it is a social game. According to you, the first thing you do when you play a game is to turn off every chat channel, find your friends, and spend the rest of the game ignoring everyone else. And while that may be a godsend for the other players in those games, it is a very odd position to take while simultaneously insisting that all other posters must toe the line and strictly adhere to Pantheon's design philosophy.
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
You can't play an mmorpg and be the boy in a plastic bubble, with whom no one can converse, approach, or interact with. Sooner or later in a social game you will have a social experience, wanted or unwanted. Take comfort in knowing that once someone meets you, they likely will not wish to repeat that experience.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
No he did not, if you were reading my responses and his, you would already know that.
Forcing me to play with people who have no interest in the game is not social. I played social games in the early years, I led raids of 70+ people, managed events, organized the guilds and dealt with social strife in both raid and guild environments. My monks name was not unknown in both skill and friendliness in EQ.
Again, maybe you can attend to the discussion rather than just telling me to deal with FTP players because I am anti-social? It is an obvious fallacious argument.
Again, I am not asking to not play with people. I am asking that I not be forced to play with FTP people due to the many reasons I have already explained and you have failed to answer.
So please attend to the discussion and not your opinion of my personal abilities, you know... because it is not "polite" to make such fallacies.
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
No he did not, if you were reading my responses and his, you would already know that.
Forcing me to play with people who have no interest in the game is not social. I played social games in the early years, I led raids of 70+ people, managed events, organized the guilds and dealt with social strife in both raid and guild environments. My monks name was not unknown in both skill and friendliness in EQ.
Again, maybe you can attend to the discussion rather than just telling me to deal with FTP players because I am anti-social? It is an obvious fallacious argument.
Again, I am not asking to not play with people. I am asking that I not be forced to play with FTP people due to the many reasons I have already explained and you have failed to answer.
So please attend to the discussion and not your opinion of my personal abilities, you know... because it is not "polite" to make such fallacies.
As long as we're on the topic of fallacious arguments, you have given no evidence that F2P corrupts the gaming environment to the degree that you're indicating.
Honestly, it's people like you who are the problem. It's the entitled and the elitist. You act as though you have a better understanding of the gaming market than Brad does. You're acting like this is a massive oversight that they're going to regret because they aren't going to be able to manage it. These decisions are never taken lightly. However, if having F2P players on the server prevents you from playing then I'll pick up the slack of the void that you left behind and commit to subscribing to the game because, honestly, there's no need for people like you. If you really don't want to play with these "types" of people then google Saga of Lucimia. They outright tell people to fuck off on their website if you don't like their game (which is sub model). So sounds like it's more along the lines of what you're looking for.
Your concerns about population are ones I think the people who make the game can figure out. I'm pretty sure if Pantheon has a flood of people wanting to try out their game, that would be a "good problem."
Bots. I swear you see a bot around every fence post. What's a level 1 bot going to do? Camp your level 70 dragon? And what's it going to do that you can't avoid?
Your claim that people will "farm" 1-10 content. Who does that? I have been playing mmos for nearly 13 years and have never seen people farming newbie content to any noticeable degree. And suppose they did? That makes them king of the Brackwell Pumpkin Patch? How long will they find that entertaining?
Harassment. It's a game full of people. That's always a risk. You have played mmos all these years and you are afraid some FTP level 1 may bump into you or KS your skelly? Honestly these are the type of "arguments" you claim have not adequately been addressed?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
No he did not, if you were reading my responses and his, you would already know that.
Forcing me to play with people who have no interest in the game is not social. I played social games in the early years, I led raids of 70+ people, managed events, organized the guilds and dealt with social strife in both raid and guild environments. My monks name was not unknown in both skill and friendliness in EQ.
Again, maybe you can attend to the discussion rather than just telling me to deal with FTP players because I am anti-social? It is an obvious fallacious argument.
Again, I am not asking to not play with people. I am asking that I not be forced to play with FTP people due to the many reasons I have already explained and you have failed to answer.
So please attend to the discussion and not your opinion of my personal abilities, you know... because it is not "polite" to make such fallacies.
As long as we're on the topic of fallacious arguments, you have given no evidence that F2P corrupts the gaming environment to the degree that you're indicating.
Honestly, it's people like you who are the problem. It's the entitled and the elitist. You act as though you have a better understanding of the gaming market than Brad does. You're acting like this is a massive oversight that they're going to regret because they aren't going to be able to manage it. These decisions are never taken lightly. However, if having F2P players on the server prevents you from playing then I'll pick up the slack of the void that you left behind and commit to subscribing to the game because, honestly, there's no need for people like you. If you really don't want to play with these "types" of people then google Saga of Lucimia. They outright tell people to fuck off on their website if you don't like their game (which is sub model). So sounds like it's more along the lines of what you're looking for.
No evidence?
I provided very specific premises to support my supposition.
Where are you attending to them? Where did you even attempt to deal with a single concern I mentioned?
You accuse me of telling people to "fuck off", but you aren't having a discussion, you are telling me to accept it or to "fuck off".
I brought up the issues, I explained my concerned and I even provided possible solutions. What is your response?
Hmm... Yep... I am the bad guy here.. yep, sure am.
The real irony is you calling me entitled while you demand that FTP be allowed on a paying server.
Your concerns about population are ones I think the people who make the game can figure out. I'm pretty sure if Pantheon has a flood of people wanting to try out their game, that would be a "good problem."
Bots. I swear you see a bot around every fence post. What's a level 1 bot going to do? Camp your level 70 dragon? And what's it going to do that you can't avoid?
Your claim that people will "farm" 1-10 content. Who does that? I have been playing mmos for nearly 13 years and have never seen people farming newbie content to any noticeable degree. And suppose they did? That makes them king of the Brackwell Pumpkin Patch? How long will they find that entertaining?
Harassment. It's a game full of people. That's always a risk. You have played mmos all these years and you are afraid some FTP level 1 may bump into you or KS your skelly? Honestly these are the type of "arguments" you claim have not adequately been addressed?
1. Population.
That is not an answer, it is a feel good response. Here is the reality. If VR prepares for millions, it means lots of expense in their networking/server capabilities which to be honest, they don't have the budget for. So, in reality, it means massive influxes of players coming into the game which causes stress on the servers, stress on the content balance and them frantically applying solutions.
Brad already mentioned they should be able to adapt server populations based on loads, but... keep in mind here... FTP provides ZERO income to them. Which means, if they have a very robust amount of players coming to "try" the game for a bit, it is all cost and no income. Also consider that levels 1-10 are supposed to take a while, not be some weekend jaunt.
So, even if VR is able to handle the load of FTP, it is going to be at an enormous cost to them with only the "hope" of retained interest, which... I would set at around maybe at most 5% of that base. Now add up the costs of providing for that many people for the return of that low of a chance of sub?
My speculation is that the servers will be overloaded with people, making game play a nightmare, and because as I said, many will be FTP (why pay when you can play for free right?) there won't be enough money to sustain it and the play experience will greatly suffer, maybe even become some massive boondoggle of a release.
Now Brad can come in and explain otherwise with various solutions he has planned (which was all that I was asking for people to consider and discuss here), I am not saying I know everything, but I am not a laymen when it comes to technology and the various aspects of these fields. So, I am not arm chairing like a clueless idiot.
2. Bots
Your argument is ignorant. who said anything about just a level 1 bott? That is another fallacy to dismiss the issue. I said boxing and botting. They go hand in hand depending on your focus. Also, do you not think there will be dungeon content and rare mob content with 1-10? Will there be no group content for a level 1-10? In the boxing discussion, I already explained I can box a full group with complete ease regardless of how difficult or action based they make the game. Now, take that understanding and realize that with FTP I can have a full group of accounts with no cost to me at all?
So now what do you say? We have a group game, with class interdependence, and social reliance with FTP players setting up 6 accounts and soloing (ie controlling a full group solo) group dungeon spawns. What are you going to do? Ask politely for the to let you in?
3. Harassment
Yes, welcome to the real world. Thing is, paying to get in removes those who obviously have zero interest in playing the game and are just there to harass. They have no investment, so why do they care? The game is free right? No loss, no consequence right? I am not arguing to be away from people, merely pointing out that FTP has zero responsibility, zero consequence to a player and comes with many problems.
Lastly, I am not asking for Brad to remove such. I am merely saying that there should be a way to play the game as a paying customer and not be forced to share the experience with someone who does not want to pay because they often do not share the same expectations that a pay to play player does.
In the end, by having a separate server for FTP, you remove the chance of that interrupting your paying player experience. Both get what they want, no issues, no problems.
Now honestly, explain to me how that is bad? Where is the downside here?
I definitely hear the concerns and don't disagree with most of them. We haven't committed to the details as to how the free trial will work, other than to say you won't be handicapped in the sense that you'll be able to try the full game out, levels 1-X (with X likely being 10). I'm not a fan of trials (games or really any software) that severely limit what you can do because you don't really get a good picture or feel for the depth and breadth of the game. We want people to have an opportunity to fully experience what Pantheon has to offer, at least at that level range. If we limit the 'Pantheon experience' then we limit people who've never experienced a game like Pantheon from truly experiencing it. Or for the more skeptical to see what the game is really all about.
That said, if it makes sense to have servers for those who pay up front, then we'll do it. Our server architecture is very flexible and cloud based. I mentioned in a post awhile back that if a server gets too crowded, we can easily and quickly deploy new servers. The same applies here.
We're going to learn a lot during alpha and beta, however. Not just what to tweak and balance, or what new systems work or don't, but also how the community builds and evolves. If we need to protect that community going into launch by having both free trial servers (I'm not going to use the term FTP, because FTP more often than not is not truly free -- you are handicapped and then barraged by cash shops) as well as servers only accessible to those who pay up front, then we will.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
I remember day 1 of my EQ experience. I walked around (and of course fell out of) Kelethin, just trying to see what kind of game it was. I was wearing the obligatory newbie rags. But there, sitting astride a horse, was some player who looked like he could have been Sir Lancelot. I thought "man, someday I could be that guy. That would be awesome." Then I set about trying to do that. Seeing that player inspired me to want to keep playing, even whilst I was running to the guards for help being chased by bees and bats.
A FTP player on a strictly FTP server will never have that experience or any similar one. He or she will not interact with, or even see, higher level players. They will not make the friends that I made when I was low level (many of whom I went on to adventure with for years).
And that would be bad.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I definitely hear the concerns and don't disagree with most of them. We haven't committed to the details as to how the free trial will work, other than to say you won't be handicapped in the sense that you'll be able to try the full game out, levels 1-X (with X likely being 10). I'm not a fan of trials (games or really any software) that severely limit what you can do because you don't really get a good picture or feel for the depth and breadth of the game. We want people to have an opportunity to fully experience what Pantheon has to offer, at least at that level range. If we limit the 'Pantheon experience' then we limit people who've never experienced a game like Pantheon from truly experiencing it. Or for the more skeptical to see what the game is really all about.
That said, if it makes sense to have servers for those who pay up front, then we'll do it. Our server architecture is very flexible and cloud based. I mentioned in a post awhile back that if a server gets too crowded, we can easily and quickly deploy new servers. The same applies here.
We're going to learn a lot during alpha and beta, however. Not just what to tweak and balance, or what new systems work or don't, but also how the community builds and evolves. If we need to protect that community going into launch by having both free trial servers (I'm not going to use the term FTP, because FTP more often than not is not truly free -- you are handicapped and then barraged by cash shops) as well as servers only accessible to those who pay up front, then we will.
My discussion was not to hold your feet to the fire or to make demands. I was merely pointing out the limitations of what I personally would accept and the concerns I had, as well as the reasoning behind them. I mean, this is the time to voice them though, it gives you enough time to consider and take actions on anything that you have not considered.
With your technology, it may be feasible to implement a system where the move from FTP and PTP could be seamless, allowing a choice of a PTP to move into a FTP server if they so chose or a avoid it entirely. This way everyone can be happy.
I remember day 1 of my EQ experience. I walked around (and of course fell out of) Kelethin, just trying to see what kind of game it was. I was wearing the obligatory newbie rags. But there, sitting astride a horse, was some player who looked like he could have been Sir Lancelot. I thought "man, someday I could be that guy. That would be awesome." Then I set about trying to do that. Seeing that player inspired me to want to keep playing, even whilst I was running to the guards for help being chased by bees and bats.
A FTP player on a strictly FTP server will never have that experience or any similar one. He or she will not interact with, or even see, higher level players. They will not make the friends that I made when I was low level (many of whom I went on to adventure with for years).
And that would be bad.
That can still happen, I am not saying that there should only be some small island server only for FTP people and no PTP people. What I am asking for is the choice to choose a server that does not have FTP.
I completely understand your experience, but keep in mind, you experienced it on a pay to play game of people who wanted to play the game, who thought spending 40 bucks for the game for the first month was worth it during a time where most people who played games were a very different crowd than that of today.
The FTP player has no decision process. They had no commitment and so there are differing aspects here.
Why not servers that allow FTP and some that do not? This way, some who have no issues with that will still play on those servers and continue on the way up to the higher levels, allowing the same circumstance to occur that you experienced.
For me personally, I want to play on a hardcore server with corpse runs, items left on the corpse, big exp loss without other class assistance, no 3rd person view, long long leveling, long fights, etc... if such a server is possible, is there really a need to have FTP on it? I don't want to rain on others parades, I simply want to have the experience of EQ, that I once knew and know I will love today to be accessible to me because as it is now, that game does not exist in any remote form in any slightest bit.
I think we can all have our cake and eat it too in this aspect. The server tech really can make these things a reality.
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
No he did not, if you were reading my responses and his, you would already know that.
Forcing me to play with people who have no interest in the game is not social. I played social games in the early years, I led raids of 70+ people, managed events, organized the guilds and dealt with social strife in both raid and guild environments. My monks name was not unknown in both skill and friendliness in EQ.
Again, maybe you can attend to the discussion rather than just telling me to deal with FTP players because I am anti-social? It is an obvious fallacious argument.
Again, I am not asking to not play with people. I am asking that I not be forced to play with FTP people due to the many reasons I have already explained and you have failed to answer.
So please attend to the discussion and not your opinion of my personal abilities, you know... because it is not "polite" to make such fallacies.
As long as we're on the topic of fallacious arguments, you have given no evidence that F2P corrupts the gaming environment to the degree that you're indicating.
Honestly, it's people like you who are the problem. It's the entitled and the elitist. You act as though you have a better understanding of the gaming market than Brad does. You're acting like this is a massive oversight that they're going to regret because they aren't going to be able to manage it. These decisions are never taken lightly. However, if having F2P players on the server prevents you from playing then I'll pick up the slack of the void that you left behind and commit to subscribing to the game because, honestly, there's no need for people like you. If you really don't want to play with these "types" of people then google Saga of Lucimia. They outright tell people to fuck off on their website if you don't like their game (which is sub model). So sounds like it's more along the lines of what you're looking for.
No evidence?
I provided very specific premises to support my supposition.
Where are you attending to them? Where did you even attempt to deal with a single concern I mentioned?
You accuse me of telling people to "fuck off", but you aren't having a discussion, you are telling me to accept it or to "fuck off".
I brought up the issues, I explained my concerned and I even provided possible solutions. What is your response?
Hmm... Yep... I am the bad guy here.. yep, sure am.
The real irony is you calling me entitled while you demand that FTP be allowed on a paying server.
Ok, so, first of all, your quotes of examples are fallacious, to use your own words again.
1) Regarding population, you already say that Brad makes mention that the load is scalable and cloud-based.
2) Secondly, you say that F2P provides no income, but the evidence seems to speak to the contrary. In fact, SWTOR is a perfect example where a game has flourished under F2P and makes considerably more using the F2P model then they did using straight subscription model.
3) You have no idea what it costs to run a server. I can tell you that I worked in e-Commerce like 10 years ago where we served thousands of clients processing upwards of a billion dollars a year in sales, billions of visitors annually, millions of emails on a daily basis, and the cost for our server farm was like $130k per month. Keeping in mind that a server farm with multiple redundancies in order to maintain bank standard up-times. Game servers I'm not sure about, but I can certainly tell you that bandwidth is much cheaper now, too, than it was back then. Feel free to throw out some numbers if you like. However, there are plenty of private servers out there supporting thousands of users for no subscription.
4) Please, if you're not a layman, then feel free to tell us about your game design experience.
5) Re: Bots, if there is any value to the game then there will be bots. I'll also tell you that VR will not be able to combat bots. If WoW wasn't able to, with their seemingly unlimited resources, why do you think that VR will be able to? There are plenty of reasons for this, but I think it generally boils down to cost. What is the value of combating bots? It doesn't provide anything to the paying customers other than normalizing the economy. If you believe that making this a sub-only game will prevent bots, you're ridiculous. In fact, I'd say that it would be worse. You've established that people subbed to the game have money and are willing to spend it. It's like a focused audience.
6) There is no evidence that F2P games lead to more harassment. That's your own opinion. There's plenty of evidence either way. In the end, if someone wants to harass someone, they'll find a way to do it. There are simply some people who will go out of their way to harass others. It happens in paid games and F2P games. You can find plenty of anecdotal evidence around the web to support that.
I guess it comes down to what the population of Pantheon proves to be and how many concierge servers Brad wants to have. According to his posts, it will be easier in his game to do that than in games past. I would not know.
I can think of dozens of server types/special rule sets that I might like to see. Probably other players can too. But if you keep dividing and subdividing the game servers then eventually you have light populations, which most people don't like. And it also starts blurring what the game actually is.
I am crazy mad in love with the idea of a hardcore server. That is brilliant. It's the best idea anybody ever had. Please let all those folks go there. Shit, I'm actually wiping away a tear of gratitude.
Of course, when every uber guild in Pantheon is having to be on that server to avoid otherwise being accused of ez-mode play, and when they all have to fight the same dragon, in a contested dungeon, they will quarrel amongst each other like wet cats in a bag and probably all quit the game. But don't tell Brad I said that. Keep telling him it's a good idea.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I guess it comes down to what the population of Pantheon proves to be and how many concierge servers Brad wants to have. According to his posts, it will be easier in his game to do that than in games past. I would not know.
I can think of dozens of server types/special rule sets that I might like to see. Probably other players can too. But if you keep dividing and subdividing the game servers then eventually you have light populations, which most people don't like. And it also starts blurring what the game actually is.
I am crazy mad in love with the idea of a hardcore server. That is brilliant. It's the best idea anybody ever had. Please let all those folks go there. Shit, I'm actually wiping away a tear of gratitude.
Of course, when every uber guild in Pantheon is having to be on that server to avoid otherwise being accused of ez-mode play, and when they all have to fight the same dragon, in a contested dungeon, they will quarrel amongst each other like wet cats in a bag and probably all quit the game. But don't tell Brad I said that. Keep telling him it's a good idea.
Well, I was on Test Server in EQ for the first year before they did the wipe and I think at max population we had around 800 people. It was great, people had to rely on each other and reputation was absolute. Also, the guilds tended to work together to goals because of need as opposed to production servers who fought like cats and dogs. Besides, I was never a "current end game" raider. I always thought it was best to let them fight over the new content and then do the older content at our own pace.
So I think rule-set servers can work fine, and the rest who need a large pop sever, well... you can pack them all together and keep them happy. I will wager though, people will want to play on the hardcore server if there is one, not because it is "hardcore", but because it is those types of rule sets to which I personally believe what made EQ so memorable, both its good and its bad. The reason we can't seem to find that type of game again these days is because people aren't willing to consider that it was the bad that made the good so enjoyable.
Oh yeah, and I should mention that I wasn't telling you to fuck off, I was saying that if you're looking for a group-based game that is subscription only and will never change or sell out then I'd suggest looking up Saga of Lucimia. They literally say "Fuck off. You aren't our target audience" It's a game they're building their own way, the way they want it and they're unapologetic about it. Seriously, if you're that concerned about models and who's going to be participating in the game, then I'd check it out.
I remember day 1 of my EQ experience. I walked around (and of course fell out of) Kelethin, just trying to see what kind of game it was. I was wearing the obligatory newbie rags. But there, sitting astride a horse, was some player who looked like he could have been Sir Lancelot. I thought "man, someday I could be that guy. That would be awesome." Then I set about trying to do that. Seeing that player inspired me to want to keep playing, even whilst I was running to the guards for help being chased by bees and bats.
A FTP player on a strictly FTP server will never have that experience or any similar one. He or she will not interact with, or even see, higher level players. They will not make the friends that I made when I was low level (many of whom I went on to adventure with for years).
And that would be bad.
You bring up a great point -- many noobs get inspired when they see higher level or established players, and we definitely want that to happen. Were we to have open trial servers as well as pay-up-front servers, there'd be nothing stopping the more experienced Pantheon player (maybe they played a lot of the earlier MMOs and so feel right at home and advance quicker and/or they played during beta and so know where to go and what to do so more than a complete newbie) from playing on the 'open trial' servers. I think for every player who would want to play on the pay-up-front server (assuming we go in this direction -- I am not setting anything in stone here -- just thinking out loud and brainstorming with the rest of you), there would be at least one or more who would choose the free open trial servers.
I can certainly see many players who would be drawn to the 'pay up front' server because they only want to interact with a more committed community. But I also see many players joining the open servers, not being as bothered by the lookie-loos and complete noobs, and in fact, enjoying the type of community that will emerge there. Some really enjoy mentoring noobs. Some like the extra challenge of interacting with a less mature community, etc.
And of course, there will be /ignore commands, customer service, etc. -- a player, whether he is paying for the game or not, who is disrupting and interfering with the fun of even one other player (and usually it's more than one) is not a player who is good for the game, the community we want to see emerge, etc.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
I guess it comes down to what the population of Pantheon proves to be and how many concierge servers Brad wants to have. According to his posts, it will be easier in his game to do that than in games past. I would not know.
I can think of dozens of server types/special rule sets that I might like to see. Probably other players can too. But if you keep dividing and subdividing the game servers then eventually you have light populations, which most people don't like. And it also starts blurring what the game actually is.
I am crazy mad in love with the idea of a hardcore server. That is brilliant. It's the best idea anybody ever had. Please let all those folks go there. Shit, I'm actually wiping away a tear of gratitude.
Of course, when every uber guild in Pantheon is having to be on that server to avoid otherwise being accused of ez-mode play, and when they all have to fight the same dragon, in a contested dungeon, they will quarrel amongst each other like wet cats in a bag and probably all quit the game. But don't tell Brad I said that. Keep telling him it's a good idea.
Just wanted to say that I agree that if the idea of different servers goes too far, it would indeed sub-divide the players too much, potentially hurting player population (and avoiding under-population is paramount). So, yes, we have the tech to make rolling out additional servers easy, but we'll be doing it in response to demand and a rising overall population, e.g. the idea isn't to launch day one with a bunch of servers, regular or special. Also, given our plan to have open servers where you can play for free levels 1-X means that a lot of lookie-loos will come in, play a bit, decide the game is not for them, and leave. This is inescapable. So we will have plans in place to smoothly consolidate servers as well, as some of them will naturally shrink. My guess is a bunch of people come to try out the game, some leave, but then more come as those who wanted to wait and see, or who can only be reached by word-of-mouth, start appearing. So if one was to graph it, it would be higher at first, then a dip, and then a steady growth upward from there. We'll have the servers in place we think we need at launch (based on Beta 4 population, etc), then be ready to consolidate and then expand again.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so, first of all, your quotes of examples are fallacious, to use your own words again.
It is not my word, is a word and it is in a dictionary, look it up... it means assumptions, inaccurate, not true, etc... It is also based on the aspect of arguments which are used to avoid logical position and escape through tactics that are meant to avoid dealing with the failure of a premise (ie a foundation of position). So don't use "words" because I use them, use them because you know them and apply them properly.
2) Secondly, you say that F2P provides no income, but the evidence seems
to speak to the contrary. In fact, SWTOR is a perfect example where a
game has flourished under F2P and makes considerably more using the F2P
model then they did using straight subscription model.
This is where your fallacy comes in. You see, this is a straw man. I wasn't arguing FTP as a concept, I was arguing FTP as it concerns Brads implementation of such. That is, his 1-10 FTP is free, no stores, no potions to buy, no gimmicks, etc... it means they allow people to play the game up to level 1-X (1-10 was one example they were thinking of) for free. So, how do you make money on that plan? Hmm? Maybe read about the game first before you start arguing a position?
4) Please, if you're not a layman, then feel free to tell us about your game design experience.
Game design? This isn't a game design issue. It is a server costs, bandwidth cost, etc... type of issue. It costs money for hardware, for people to run and manage those servers as well as the cost of all that bandwidth from the traffic that the business incurs. I hope you realize, the businesses out there carry an extraordinary amount of the costs for you to have your cheap internet right? Did you think VR simply threw up their servers on a cable connection with unlimited bandwidth for a cool $49.95 a month?
They pay for what they use and it gets costly if they haven't planned accordingly. So, if you design for a base of 100-300k people and all of a sudden you are slammed with 1.5 million, sure... you can open more servers, increase your bandwidth, but maybe you can clear something up for me... where are you going to get that money from your FTP base if you aren't charging them anything and you aren't selling things in a store or gimmicking players with buy in content? I am all ears, please share for us?
5) Re: Bots, if there is any value to the game then there will be bots.
I'll also tell you that VR will not be able to combat bots. If WoW
wasn't able to, with their seemingly unlimited resources, why do you
think that VR will be able to? There are plenty of reasons for this, but
I think it generally boils down to cost. What is the value of combating
bots? It doesn't provide anything to the paying customers other than
normalizing the economy. If you believe that making this a sub-only game
will prevent bots, you're ridiculous. In fact, I'd say that it would be
worse. You've established that people subbed to the game have money and
are willing to spend it. It's like a focused audience.
I brought up boxers and bots. Both are and issue, and if you were again attending to my point rather than fallaciously arguing a straw man, you would note that my point was that with a pay to play game, the company at the least were able to gain compensation via box sales and subs for each account the player used to box and if they were caught, they lost that expense. Now, compare that to the FTP account that costs nothing and can be infinitely created with no consequence. Go ahead, explain how FTP boxing and PTP boxing are on equal footing financially for the company. We are waiting.
6) There is no evidence that F2P games lead to more harassment. That's
your own opinion. There's plenty of evidence either way. In the end, if
someone wants to harass someone, they'll find a way to do it. There are
simply some people who will go out of their way to harass others. It
happens in paid games and F2P games. You can find plenty of anecdotal
evidence around the web to support that.
FTP games have no consequence mechanism. You see, If Billy pays for the game through box/sub or the like, Billy is invested. Now certainly, Billy can be a tool and harass people, but he risks losing his account, his investment in the game which means Billy has to go buy another game, and sub all over again. Now certainly, Billy may actually be Tom Cruise and have enormous amounts of cash and so can continually fund the repetition of harassing, buying a new game and new sub, and then repeating this cycle over and over, but.. do you see the issue here? Most aren't that stupid, most aren't that well off that they will continually do something so idiotic. Even if they did, with a pay system, usually they can require a CC or some other verifiable system where they can ban Mr. Cruise permanently through other means.
Now compare that to a FTP game. No pay source (unless you require a CC, which you know people will throw tantrums over), no way to verify account ownership, no way to curb anything. No accountability, no consequence, etc....
So, evidence? Not empirically established, but reasoned by simple logic that it would suggest it is more likely to occur than that of a pay to play game.
Comments
No /tell
No /shout
No /auction
No /ooc
Limited /say - max 1 per minute
Limited /trade - only with free trial players
Limited /invite - max 1 per minute maybe w/ only trial players
Limited zone access - only to the starter city and surrounding zones containing 1-10 content
Chat should be mostly restricted to /reply to players that sent them tells, or /groupsay to players that agreed to group with them.
The account should be active up to level 10, and expire 1 month after account creation.
side note: I also think free trial characters (that don't subscribe) should be wiped after 6 months and their character name released.
Given those restrictions, a trial player would have little opportunity to cause trouble.
It is the having to deal with them physically, that is harass you in person (ie running around you into you, blocking you, attacking your mobs, training you with more mobs, etc...).
Add in boxing and botting, and you get rare camps perma camped by griefers and gold sellers, etc...
There are tons of ways to cause trouble (loot stealing, in group harassment, etc) and when there is no means to stop the person, no means of consequence (CC banned, lost sub time, etc...), then it will be a problem.
I can list you numerous ways they can do things. You can't ban the IP as they can easily use numerous proxy services that have blocks of IPs. This also creates problems as with no cost incurred from accounts, box sales, or subs, boxing becomes a no cost solution for any and all which creates the issue of people soloing the content.
See, I don't want to play with them. I want nothing to do with them, they will be a problem. That is not to say that these poorly behaved folks don't exist on a pay service, but it does serve to "weed" out some of the people who have no intention of paying for the game.
Now I am certainly not saying they shouldn't have such a features on special servers, but I don't want to play with them. I don't want to spend the first 10 levels of my experience with Pantheon fighting off FTP idiots who have nothing better to do than gimmick the game because they hate Brad and Pantheon. I want to build social reliance that comes with all the responsibilities of such. Your first 10 levels is often where you will start running into people, grouping with them, etc... FTP isn't a good start for such as a person who is unwilling to pay to play the game is not serious enough to waste time with.
Again, I am not saying there shouldn't be such an offering, but let people choose to avoid a server that provides it. I don't think that is too unreasonable to ask for, do you? I mean, after all... if they are thinking about special rule set servers, do we really need a FTP offering for lets say the hardcore server? Like I said, a server that caters to such would allow new people to "try" the game, but not saddle people with those fly by night types and while some may decide to play Pantheon seriously, most will pass through without even a modicum of concern for the game.
Never had a problem in any game with harassment in chat. In fact, my habit in most modern games while I still played was to log in and first turn off all the social chat channels, contact my friends make a guild and we rarely talked or dealt with anyone outside of our guild. So chat harassment was never an issue.
You have to think about things past chat use. In EQ, you could block doors, does pantheon have such a mechanic? In EQ, you could train people, you could kill steal, etc...
With FTP comes unlimited accounts, which means boxing/botting, so now you are competing with one person for group spawns and it cost the FTP nothing.
With FTP there is zero accountability. You and I have discussed numerous topics where we assured people that social realms would regulate the abusers. I agree, but not with FTP as there is no consequence. FTP doesn't care if they get thrown out, banned, blacklisted, etc... They will simply make another toon to exploit and harass as they did before.
Free comes with zero accountability. At least with a pay account, they have to come back with a new pay source and if they only accept credit cards or pay sources with personal identification, then this limits the broad abuse returning, not to mention the money loss by the abuser and gain by VR.
There is no reason for it not to be on a separate server, a "here, try out our game" server or the like. It is only a negative to put FTP players with pay players.
I don't know about others, but this would be a deal breaker for me personally. I have had too many issues with FTP games, I won't bother wasting 10 levels (of what is supposed to be long and meaningful play) running around with a bunch of people I refuse to play with today. Call it what you will, but I won't bother, not with a game that is even remotely like EQ.
Brad, I hope you get around to reading this. This is why your target market may need to be widened just a bit. If you put all your apples in the basket of customers who, if they don't get one thing they want they /ragequit, that's a pretty fickle customer base!
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm personally much more concerned about ways that such accounts can be used to spam chat for gold and item selling services. That absolutely must be prevented, and players should not have to constantly put people on /ignore or opt out of chat channels like /ooc.
I guess we will have to wait and see whether a trial server is necessary. The whole idea behind not creating a separate trial island or trial server is that they want to show the player what the world is really like, with all its inhabitants, activities and common interactions intact. To put them on their own server will undoubtedly limit that experience.
You did however use this as a means to again push your agenda. Brad spent two whole posts explaining how we should be polite with people like you, how we should try to explain things, work with you and encourage you to see what this game has to offer, yet... you prove my point and work against his with this very response. In fact, you show your own words in a previous thread to be hypocritical as rather than just simply attending to the logic of the concerns I had, you dismissed them and whined to Brad about how he should not make games for his current niche.
I stated that I won't play a game if I have to wade through 10 levels of FTP garbage to get to the real game. I gave my reasons, explained them properly using logical process and I expect people if they are going to object to them, to do me the common courtesy of actually attending to the discussion rather than acting like a child running off to papa in hopes of gaining favor.
No Dullahan has been able to achieve this level of civil discourse, how about you come over to the adults table and join us? Or is that being too impolite in dealing with your oh so delicate nature?
So are you speaking from experience or stereotype? To be honest, I've played multiple subscription MMORPGs and plenty of F2P games my assessment would be that this has very little to do with the model itself. See we actually encourage the behaviour because we now have things like twitch, youtube, etc. where being a raging a-hole isn't only accepted, but it's encouraged. It's comic relief. That being said, I've found that the F2P games I've played tend to have much better communities in general. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's that the value isn't tied to a subscription, so hanging out and just chilling isn't costing you anything. I remember sitting around in a raid, in WoW, for an hour before we even started anything. You can't do that now. Sorry, but you really don't have a clue about F2P. You sound like Donald Trump talking about crime.
As far as the question of value of effort vs buying character development. The buying aspect will always be something that appeals to a limited subset of people. If you're interested in that, great! However, I feel like many MMOs have concentrated on creating barriers for these groups, making it harder for them to level quickly. Not only is this futile, because people end up maxing level in 24 hours or less anyway, but it also creates massive barriers for others who aren't interested in that level grind. Honestly, I think that if they stick to the idea of a social-oriented game world, they'll be fine, but that means creating an environment where the trip to max level is 40 or 50 hours, not 300. Destiny is a great example of a pick-up-and-play game. It's easy to recruit people and have them playing with their friends in a matter of hours, which should be the whole idea of a social game.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I am not sure how you don't think this will be a concern? You keep dismissing it like it won't be an issue, that it is "only" 10 levels, but 10 levels is supposed to be a long time.
There are many aspects, for instance:
1. Population issues with FTP are enormous. Keep in mind that they aren't preparing for millions of players, but a certain niche number. That does not mean that millions won't give it a go if the buzz gets out and it costs nothing to try. After all, FTP costs nothing but time and that is what FTP hoppers do, they hop from game to game.
2. Botting/Boxing. this is also an issue as there is no cost factor to multiple accounts, so anyone with the notion to try it will be able to and when we consider the ease of boxing these days, it will be much more accessible, which means more likely an issue with it. With FTP, it means more people having entire groups of PCs *solo* farming 1-10 content that is contested.
3. As I mentioned, there are numerous elements in game play that regardless of chatting, can be used to abuse (player collision, training, kill stealing, taunt wiping raids, etc...). With no consequence or regulating factor due to it being "free", this will create problems. Honestly, explain to me how a free account at low level in contested content with numerous mechanics that can cause issues with other players is not going to have a problem?
Spam and chat gold is not an issue, as I said I could always turn it off.. it is the least of worries in a game because proper technology these days and you can limit your chat to only selective people. The other things I mentioned you can't control, you will be at the mercy of the them and the games rules/mechanics.
Personally, I don't see it as possible to make a game like EQ with the freedom and openness of the system which relied on community policing as possible with FTP. There is zero risk/loss for the FTP player.
It doesn't have to be a special island, just a server with the content they are going to allow and when someone decides to start subbing, their character is auto-transferred to a pay server they select. This way, pay players don't deal with any of the "possible" abuses I mentioned from free players. Sure, there will still be those that exist on the pay servers, but not to the level that FTP has.
Again, I don't think my concern is without merit.
Of course you can express your likes and dislikes - curious at times as they may be. If you don't like FTP early levels, that's your prerogative, just as is your right to say so. No quarrel there.
But I am just surprised that as many pixels as you have expended railing against "mainstream" and "casual" gamers - who you contend suffer from a sense of entitlement, and who you argue require that games be redesigned to their personal needs in contravention of the game's tenants - that you would threaten to never play the game at all if you can't have your way on an issue that is fully in line with those tenants?
Pantheon says in the FAQ that it is a social game. According to you, the first thing you do when you play a game is to turn off every chat channel, find your friends, and spend the rest of the game ignoring everyone else. And while that may be a godsend for the other players in those games, it is a very odd position to take while simultaneously insisting that all other posters must toe the line and strictly adhere to Pantheon's design philosophy.
I have not addressed your concerns because other posters have done so adequately already. Simply put, there is little a 1-10 player can do to you. And even less that you can't prevent by ignoring them.
You can't play an mmorpg and be the boy in a plastic bubble, with whom no one can converse, approach, or interact with. Sooner or later in a social game you will have a social experience, wanted or unwanted. Take comfort in knowing that once someone meets you, they likely will not wish to repeat that experience.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
No he did not, if you were reading my responses and his, you would already know that.
Forcing me to play with people who have no interest in the game is not social. I played social games in the early years, I led raids of 70+ people, managed events, organized the guilds and dealt with social strife in both raid and guild environments. My monks name was not unknown in both skill and friendliness in EQ.
Again, maybe you can attend to the discussion rather than just telling me to deal with FTP players because I am anti-social? It is an obvious fallacious argument.
Again, I am not asking to not play with people. I am asking that I not be forced to play with FTP people due to the many reasons I have already explained and you have failed to answer.
So please attend to the discussion and not your opinion of my personal abilities, you know... because it is not "polite" to make such fallacies.
As long as we're on the topic of fallacious arguments, you have given no evidence that F2P corrupts the gaming environment to the degree that you're indicating.
Honestly, it's people like you who are the problem. It's the entitled and the elitist. You act as though you have a better understanding of the gaming market than Brad does. You're acting like this is a massive oversight that they're going to regret because they aren't going to be able to manage it. These decisions are never taken lightly. However, if having F2P players on the server prevents you from playing then I'll pick up the slack of the void that you left behind and commit to subscribing to the game because, honestly, there's no need for people like you. If you really don't want to play with these "types" of people then google Saga of Lucimia. They outright tell people to fuck off on their website if you don't like their game (which is sub model). So sounds like it's more along the lines of what you're looking for.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Your concerns about population are ones I think the people who make the game can figure out. I'm pretty sure if Pantheon has a flood of people wanting to try out their game, that would be a "good problem."
Bots. I swear you see a bot around every fence post. What's a level 1 bot going to do? Camp your level 70 dragon? And what's it going to do that you can't avoid?
Your claim that people will "farm" 1-10 content. Who does that? I have been playing mmos for nearly 13 years and have never seen people farming newbie content to any noticeable degree. And suppose they did? That makes them king of the Brackwell Pumpkin Patch? How long will they find that entertaining?
Harassment. It's a game full of people. That's always a risk. You have played mmos all these years and you are afraid some FTP level 1 may bump into you or KS your skelly? Honestly these are the type of "arguments" you claim have not adequately been addressed?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I provided very specific premises to support my supposition.
Where are you attending to them? Where did you even attempt to deal with a single concern I mentioned?
You accuse me of telling people to "fuck off", but you aren't having a discussion, you are telling me to accept it or to "fuck off".
I brought up the issues, I explained my concerned and I even provided possible solutions. What is your response?
Hmm... Yep... I am the bad guy here.. yep, sure am.
The real irony is you calling me entitled while you demand that FTP be allowed on a paying server.
1. Population.
That is not an answer, it is a feel good response. Here is the reality. If VR prepares for millions, it means lots of expense in their networking/server capabilities which to be honest, they don't have the budget for. So, in reality, it means massive influxes of players coming into the game which causes stress on the servers, stress on the content balance and them frantically applying solutions.
Brad already mentioned they should be able to adapt server populations based on loads, but... keep in mind here... FTP provides ZERO income to them. Which means, if they have a very robust amount of players coming to "try" the game for a bit, it is all cost and no income. Also consider that levels 1-10 are supposed to take a while, not be some weekend jaunt.
So, even if VR is able to handle the load of FTP, it is going to be at an enormous cost to them with only the "hope" of retained interest, which... I would set at around maybe at most 5% of that base. Now add up the costs of providing for that many people for the return of that low of a chance of sub?
My speculation is that the servers will be overloaded with people, making game play a nightmare, and because as I said, many will be FTP (why pay when you can play for free right?) there won't be enough money to sustain it and the play experience will greatly suffer, maybe even become some massive boondoggle of a release.
Now Brad can come in and explain otherwise with various solutions he has planned (which was all that I was asking for people to consider and discuss here), I am not saying I know everything, but I am not a laymen when it comes to technology and the various aspects of these fields. So, I am not arm chairing like a clueless idiot.
2. Bots
Your argument is ignorant. who said anything about just a level 1 bott? That is another fallacy to dismiss the issue. I said boxing and botting. They go hand in hand depending on your focus. Also, do you not think there will be dungeon content and rare mob content with 1-10? Will there be no group content for a level 1-10? In the boxing discussion, I already explained I can box a full group with complete ease regardless of how difficult or action based they make the game. Now, take that understanding and realize that with FTP I can have a full group of accounts with no cost to me at all?
So now what do you say? We have a group game, with class interdependence, and social reliance with FTP players setting up 6 accounts and soloing (ie controlling a full group solo) group dungeon spawns. What are you going to do? Ask politely for the to let you in?
3. Harassment
Yes, welcome to the real world. Thing is, paying to get in removes those who obviously have zero interest in playing the game and are just there to harass. They have no investment, so why do they care? The game is free right? No loss, no consequence right? I am not arguing to be away from people, merely pointing out that FTP has zero responsibility, zero consequence to a player and comes with many problems.
Lastly, I am not asking for Brad to remove such. I am merely saying that there should be a way to play the game as a paying customer and not be forced to share the experience with someone who does not want to pay because they often do not share the same expectations that a pay to play player does.
In the end, by having a separate server for FTP, you remove the chance of that interrupting your paying player experience. Both get what they want, no issues, no problems.
Now honestly, explain to me how that is bad? Where is the downside here?
That said, if it makes sense to have servers for those who pay up front, then we'll do it. Our server architecture is very flexible and cloud based. I mentioned in a post awhile back that if a server gets too crowded, we can easily and quickly deploy new servers. The same applies here.
We're going to learn a lot during alpha and beta, however. Not just what to tweak and balance, or what new systems work or don't, but also how the community builds and evolves. If we need to protect that community going into launch by having both free trial servers (I'm not going to use the term FTP, because FTP more often than not is not truly free -- you are handicapped and then barraged by cash shops) as well as servers only accessible to those who pay up front, then we will.
--
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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I will explain why it is bad.
I remember day 1 of my EQ experience. I walked around (and of course fell out of) Kelethin, just trying to see what kind of game it was. I was wearing the obligatory newbie rags. But there, sitting astride a horse, was some player who looked like he could have been Sir Lancelot. I thought "man, someday I could be that guy. That would be awesome." Then I set about trying to do that. Seeing that player inspired me to want to keep playing, even whilst I was running to the guards for help being chased by bees and bats.
A FTP player on a strictly FTP server will never have that experience or any similar one. He or she will not interact with, or even see, higher level players. They will not make the friends that I made when I was low level (many of whom I went on to adventure with for years).
And that would be bad.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
With your technology, it may be feasible to implement a system where the move from FTP and PTP could be seamless, allowing a choice of a PTP to move into a FTP server if they so chose or a avoid it entirely. This way everyone can be happy.
I completely understand your experience, but keep in mind, you experienced it on a pay to play game of people who wanted to play the game, who thought spending 40 bucks for the game for the first month was worth it during a time where most people who played games were a very different crowd than that of today.
The FTP player has no decision process. They had no commitment and so there are differing aspects here.
Why not servers that allow FTP and some that do not? This way, some who have no issues with that will still play on those servers and continue on the way up to the higher levels, allowing the same circumstance to occur that you experienced.
For me personally, I want to play on a hardcore server with corpse runs, items left on the corpse, big exp loss without other class assistance, no 3rd person view, long long leveling, long fights, etc... if such a server is possible, is there really a need to have FTP on it? I don't want to rain on others parades, I simply want to have the experience of EQ, that I once knew and know I will love today to be accessible to me because as it is now, that game does not exist in any remote form in any slightest bit.
I think we can all have our cake and eat it too in this aspect. The server tech really can make these things a reality.
Ok, so, first of all, your quotes of examples are fallacious, to use your own words again.
1) Regarding population, you already say that Brad makes mention that the load is scalable and cloud-based.
2) Secondly, you say that F2P provides no income, but the evidence seems to speak to the contrary. In fact, SWTOR is a perfect example where a game has flourished under F2P and makes considerably more using the F2P model then they did using straight subscription model.
3) You have no idea what it costs to run a server. I can tell you that I worked in e-Commerce like 10 years ago where we served thousands of clients processing upwards of a billion dollars a year in sales, billions of visitors annually, millions of emails on a daily basis, and the cost for our server farm was like $130k per month. Keeping in mind that a server farm with multiple redundancies in order to maintain bank standard up-times. Game servers I'm not sure about, but I can certainly tell you that bandwidth is much cheaper now, too, than it was back then. Feel free to throw out some numbers if you like. However, there are plenty of private servers out there supporting thousands of users for no subscription.
4) Please, if you're not a layman, then feel free to tell us about your game design experience.
5) Re: Bots, if there is any value to the game then there will be bots. I'll also tell you that VR will not be able to combat bots. If WoW wasn't able to, with their seemingly unlimited resources, why do you think that VR will be able to? There are plenty of reasons for this, but I think it generally boils down to cost. What is the value of combating bots? It doesn't provide anything to the paying customers other than normalizing the economy. If you believe that making this a sub-only game will prevent bots, you're ridiculous. In fact, I'd say that it would be worse. You've established that people subbed to the game have money and are willing to spend it. It's like a focused audience.
6) There is no evidence that F2P games lead to more harassment. That's your own opinion. There's plenty of evidence either way. In the end, if someone wants to harass someone, they'll find a way to do it. There are simply some people who will go out of their way to harass others. It happens in paid games and F2P games. You can find plenty of anecdotal evidence around the web to support that.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I guess it comes down to what the population of Pantheon proves to be and how many concierge servers Brad wants to have. According to his posts, it will be easier in his game to do that than in games past. I would not know.
I can think of dozens of server types/special rule sets that I might like to see. Probably other players can too. But if you keep dividing and subdividing the game servers then eventually you have light populations, which most people don't like. And it also starts blurring what the game actually is.
I am crazy mad in love with the idea of a hardcore server. That is brilliant. It's the best idea anybody ever had. Please let all those folks go there. Shit, I'm actually wiping away a tear of gratitude.
Of course, when every uber guild in Pantheon is having to be on that server to avoid otherwise being accused of ez-mode play, and when they all have to fight the same dragon, in a contested dungeon, they will quarrel amongst each other like wet cats in a bag and probably all quit the game. But don't tell Brad I said that. Keep telling him it's a good idea.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
So I think rule-set servers can work fine, and the rest who need a large pop sever, well... you can pack them all together and keep them happy. I will wager though, people will want to play on the hardcore server if there is one, not because it is "hardcore", but because it is those types of rule sets to which I personally believe what made EQ so memorable, both its good and its bad. The reason we can't seem to find that type of game again these days is because people aren't willing to consider that it was the bad that made the good so enjoyable.
Oh yeah, and I should mention that I wasn't telling you to fuck off, I was saying that if you're looking for a group-based game that is subscription only and will never change or sell out then I'd suggest looking up Saga of Lucimia. They literally say "Fuck off. You aren't our target audience" It's a game they're building their own way, the way they want it and they're unapologetic about it. Seriously, if you're that concerned about models and who's going to be participating in the game, then I'd check it out.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I can certainly see many players who would be drawn to the 'pay up front' server because they only want to interact with a more committed community. But I also see many players joining the open servers, not being as bothered by the lookie-loos and complete noobs, and in fact, enjoying the type of community that will emerge there. Some really enjoy mentoring noobs. Some like the extra challenge of interacting with a less mature community, etc.
And of course, there will be /ignore commands, customer service, etc. -- a player, whether he is paying for the game or not, who is disrupting and interfering with the fun of even one other player (and usually it's more than one) is not a player who is good for the game, the community we want to see emerge, etc.
--
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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Just wanted to say that I agree that if the idea of different servers goes too far, it would indeed sub-divide the players too much, potentially hurting player population (and avoiding under-population is paramount). So, yes, we have the tech to make rolling out additional servers easy, but we'll be doing it in response to demand and a rising overall population, e.g. the idea isn't to launch day one with a bunch of servers, regular or special. Also, given our plan to have open servers where you can play for free levels 1-X means that a lot of lookie-loos will come in, play a bit, decide the game is not for them, and leave. This is inescapable. So we will have plans in place to smoothly consolidate servers as well, as some of them will naturally shrink. My guess is a bunch of people come to try out the game, some leave, but then more come as those who wanted to wait and see, or who can only be reached by word-of-mouth, start appearing. So if one was to graph it, it would be higher at first, then a dip, and then a steady growth upward from there. We'll have the servers in place we think we need at launch (based on Beta 4 population, etc), then be ready to consolidate and then expand again.
--
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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Yes, scaled means costs scale as well. So, as with players scaling, so does costs and Pantheons FTP doesn't provide income for those costs.
This is where your fallacy comes in. You see, this is a straw man. I wasn't arguing FTP as a concept, I was arguing FTP as it concerns Brads implementation of such. That is, his 1-10 FTP is free, no stores, no potions to buy, no gimmicks, etc... it means they allow people to play the game up to level 1-X (1-10 was one example they were thinking of) for free. So, how do you make money on that plan? Hmm? Maybe read about the game first before you start arguing a position?
Game design? This isn't a game design issue. It is a server costs, bandwidth cost, etc... type of issue. It costs money for hardware, for people to run and manage those servers as well as the cost of all that bandwidth from the traffic that the business incurs. I hope you realize, the businesses out there carry an extraordinary amount of the costs for you to have your cheap internet right? Did you think VR simply threw up their servers on a cable connection with unlimited bandwidth for a cool $49.95 a month?
They pay for what they use and it gets costly if they haven't planned accordingly. So, if you design for a base of 100-300k people and all of a sudden you are slammed with 1.5 million, sure... you can open more servers, increase your bandwidth, but maybe you can clear something up for me... where are you going to get that money from your FTP base if you aren't charging them anything and you aren't selling things in a store or gimmicking players with buy in content? I am all ears, please share for us?
I brought up boxers and bots. Both are and issue, and if you were again attending to my point rather than fallaciously arguing a straw man, you would note that my point was that with a pay to play game, the company at the least were able to gain compensation via box sales and subs for each account the player used to box and if they were caught, they lost that expense. Now, compare that to the FTP account that costs nothing and can be infinitely created with no consequence. Go ahead, explain how FTP boxing and PTP boxing are on equal footing financially for the company. We are waiting.
FTP games have no consequence mechanism. You see, If Billy pays for the game through box/sub or the like, Billy is invested. Now certainly, Billy can be a tool and harass people, but he risks losing his account, his investment in the game which means Billy has to go buy another game, and sub all over again. Now certainly, Billy may actually be Tom Cruise and have enormous amounts of cash and so can continually fund the repetition of harassing, buying a new game and new sub, and then repeating this cycle over and over, but.. do you see the issue here? Most aren't that stupid, most aren't that well off that they will continually do something so idiotic. Even if they did, with a pay system, usually they can require a CC or some other verifiable system where they can ban Mr. Cruise permanently through other means.
Now compare that to a FTP game. No pay source (unless you require a CC, which you know people will throw tantrums over), no way to verify account ownership, no way to curb anything. No accountability, no consequence, etc....
So, evidence? Not empirically established, but reasoned by simple logic that it would suggest it is more likely to occur than that of a pay to play game.