At this point, I can't defend Kickstater's hands-off policies. They've sent me private messages basically telling me to let it go and are enabling Mhyre to be the fraud he is. So apparently Kickstater doesn't give a sh*t about people who give their hard earned money to frauds and are totally ok with frauds making campaigns as long as they keep getting paid. It's apparent they don't care about backers beyond their wallets, and are willing to silence discourse.
I've now decided to take any future business to IndieGogo who actually states clearly in their policy that they hold creators accountable, versus Kickstarter and their blatant distancing from all responsibility.
As always-- I promised to update the thread when fresh news comes around! It's been 5 months since the last update. Update 51 has been released 6/8/2017 and click the link to read more!
This is the post along with the title "Failed Kickstarter Project? Yes! Developer begins casting reputation restoration." a title and content which was then removed within 24H. I'm glad people are still finding entertainment in a 2 year old post.
One backer has jumped to conclusions. I want to make clear that no conclusions have been made on my end.
He
is soon to be offering refunds, and is still communicating with his
backers. I suppose after two years of making mistakes of my own- and
learning from those mistakes has made me far more apologetic to those
who make mistakes. As the other MMORPG.com users have said in this thread. Try to be
KS-Smart with your money, and only support projects with experienced
developers, and those with previous crowdfunding success, oh- and a real tech demo perhaps.
His reputation may be ruined for the time being, but that does not mean
he cannot try to right a wrong.
---
Edit: This was originally apart of the front page message, later removed. A massive post bomb shell hits the ground and devastates everything in
its path! Midora is cancelled! Turn the clock two years later, and now
the ground and plants are beginning to heal! This is a story of a man
who did not take the money and run, and is instead on the heels of doing
something which almost never happens. Instead of going silent and
hiding in the shadows- he instead stands up and faces his failure head
on!
---- I changed the title of the thread (6/9/2017) as my mood/views
towards this guy has honestly changed quite a bit after reading a post
in the latest update explaining to backers as to why he is offering full
refunds. He is interacting with backers instead of hiding in the
shadows, and I cant help but 'sorta like em' for trying to own up to his
failure and face it head on. I created this thread because Midora
lacked communication with his own backers, and I thought by creating
this thread it would raise discussions on projects that have poor
communication with their own backers.
He does not owe his backers
anything (my opinion) and it's clear that money was indeed spent on
Midora development (but in the wrong places) such as on an incomplete
engine for example instead of using Unity that would've allowed him to
focus on world building and content creation. (Please check out page 3 which investigates the work done by the past developers of Midora;
and we concluded that professional work had been done- certainly not
for free.) and we continue to see promising postings of someone who is
trying to make a real effort to redeem himself.
Once again full
disclosure; I'm not a backer of this project! I just wanted to write up a
fun popcorn worthy story- and I got what I wanted two years ago and
moved on.... but now that story is changing and well... my faith is
slowly being restored in him and he may be able to stick it to other
kickstarters that show zero communication, or make little to no real
efforts to restoring ones reputation.
I wouldn't jump too quick into making Mhyre sound like a hero. The point is, regardless of whether or not he's claiming he plans on refunding the money to backers, he lied. He ran a fraudulent campaign from the start, knowing he wouldn't have enough money to fund his project....knowing he was asking for less than 50% of what was needed, deceitfully pretending that the game was practically finished and just needed to get a nudge over the edge when in fact there wasn't even 2 minutes worth of an alpha. He swindled backers out of $70,000 that he still doesn't intend to pay back in full, nor in a realistic timeframe. His current plan will take 10-30 years to pay everyone back...when he never should have asked for or accepted the money int he first place.
He's a total fraud, and likely the only reason he's offering refunds are the [at least] 5 FTC complaints filed against him, and other legal pressures backers have started to pressure him with. He's likely banking on the people who are kind enough to say "keep my money" to get him out of this mess he created, and STILL he's keeping money given to him under fraudulent pretenses.
I wouldn't jump too quick into making Mhyre sound like a hero. The point is, regardless of whether or not he's claiming he plans on refunding the money to backers, he lied. He ran a fraudulent campaign from the start, knowing he wouldn't have enough money to fund his project....knowing he was asking for less than 50% of what was needed, deceitfully pretending that the game was practically finished and just needed to get a nudge over the edge when in fact there wasn't even 2 minutes worth of an alpha. He swindled backers out of $70,000 that he still doesn't intend to pay back in full, nor in a realistic timeframe. His current plan will take 10-30 years to pay everyone back...when he never should have asked for or accepted the money int he first place.
He's a total fraud, and likely the only reason he's offering refunds are the [at least] 5 FTC complaints filed against him, and other legal pressures backers have started to pressure him with. He's likely banking on the people who are kind enough to say "keep my money" to get him out of this mess he created, and STILL he's keeping money given to him under fraudulent pretenses.
I will delete the first paragraph and edit it into the above post for sake of keeping history. I'm not trying to make his recent actions sound heroic or anything, but I
will admit that I got into the comic spirit in my first new paragraph. I must make good on my promise to reverse certain comments, and spin a fair view on the steps he promises to take at the end of the month. He is clearly not trying to run away from his past mistakes, and I refuse to reflect the wrong message in the title, and main post.
This thread was originally created to share a story of a KS-Project that was refusing to update its backers for months on end. I wanted to create a discussion on KS projects that go radio silent, and run away with the money. It was the case for a while- but Mhyre eventually told how things were truly going on. He streamed publicly on Twitch and explained his situation, and while it was incredibly boring- it was also quite revealing and at that point I sorta moved on from Midora.
As a non backer of Midora- I feel awful for all those who invested money into a failed project. I do still believe you are entitled to something. However, my views have vastly changed over the years. You support a project on KS- and you basically kiss your money goodbye. I can no longer view him in a negative light, when he is so desperately trying to be seen in a positive light. I cannot name a single project that has ever considered refunding backers on KS.
He had professional artists, and sound designers (*& More) who were clearly paid. We investigated the fraud, con-artist, scammer, claims in a very long earlier investigation post which debunked it all. Money was indeed spent on Midora, but certainly not in the right area's. We received a tech-demo which showed the shard engine in action. He should've used the Unity engine which could've done everything they created in shard from the very start.
I still believe he is very inexperienced, and definitely bit more than he could chew. It was clear that it was his first game, and everything about the game's description indicates an inexperienced game developer. I highly doubt a project like Midora would pass 30k pledges in 2017. Tons of people have learned from their mistakes, and lots of people seem a bit crowdfunding smarter compared to two years ago.
I agree that KS-projects that seek less money than they actually need is wrong and misleading AF) but many projects sadly already do this- and try to 'make it'. Mhyre never claimed to know much about game development. He hired others who were skillful in game development, and tried to lead them too a loss which still burns surely. However- we're talking about an inexperienced guy here, and his first game- and technically his first Kickstarter Project.
I want to tell you to broaden your horizons a bit, but I don't think you want to bother doing that for Midora or Mhyre in your above post. I understand the frustration of supporting a project that failed to come
to life, but most people these days would chalk it as a loss and move
on now. I refuse to continue to bash and put pressure on someone- when they are making an effort to appeal.
I cannot fully understand as to why you're still upset, when I thought
your goal was getting something in return. However- now it seems you
want more than just your money back.
I think Kickstarter is attracting the wrong kind of people to the genre.....It gives the feeling of "we can make money for nothing" and too many just blindly throw their money at these people
Lemme ask this one..... July 12 2014 William announces that Midora was successfully funded. Fast Forward to December 7 2014. Will updates us, saying physical rewards like posters should be shipped out January or February. April 10 2015, Will announces a pause in Midora, and gives his website of epicminds.net (coming soon since 2015, still not up as of the time this is posted). 26 April 2015, Early access is announced for May, saying there is a 99.78 and change percent chance of Early Access. 21 July, a message saying early access is ' in the works.'
Now, let's bump up to 5 October 2015. Will admits that he knowingly lowballed how much money he needed for Midora. He needed 40-50 thousand dollars more than he set his goal for. This revelation came over a year after he was 'successfully' funded.
So, given that information, how can anyone believe that this guy anything but a fraud and charlatan? Sure, he's 'offering refunds,' and some people have already said they don't want refunds. So he won't be paying full price in the end. Also, you're not eligible for a refund unless you go through PayPal (according to Will). There will be some people who go, "Screw it. I don't want a PayPal account. He can have my money." Will will be paying substantially less than what he raised. But let's take a Midora doomsday scenario. Everyone gets PayPal and everyone wants their money back. Will has told me (and I've got the email traffic on this one) that once refunds start, he'll be able to refund between 200-400 dollars per month. He raised 73K and change. Even if he manages to stick to this budget and timetable, it'll take between 15 and 30 years for everyone to be refunded.
For those who didn't back Midora and are backing Will now, you're deluded. Myself and The Lucha Dork and Tracey and Strike Commando who got front row seats to this debacle. We're not armchair quarterbacking it because we were in the game (figuratively speaking, as no game exists).
One backer has jumped to conclusions. I want to make clear that no conclusions have been made on my end, and all my own views on the Midora can change at anytime.
Welcome to the mmorpg.com Midora discussion! //Thanks David / @StrikeCommando for putting this thread on the radar and giving exposure!//
I want to make clear that no conclusions have been made, and that any text post made by me, and all my own views on the project can change at anytime. My personal views on the project does not
mean any other readers from mmorpg.com feel the same way. I have the
ability to change the title of the thread, and the contents of every
single post I made. This week I made some changes to spin a fair view, to the upcoming changes. All backers who read this are invited to join the discussion on mmorpg.com and this thread to provide more insight into Midora.
I created this thread because Midora
and the developer, lacked proper communication with his own backers. I thought by creating
this thread it would raise discussions on projects that have poor
communication with their own backers. This discussion has long passed, and the developer has properly passed on communication. The moment the developer came clean, and admitted the project was not moving forward- was when the thread served its purpose.
The thread has largely been inactive in the past year- up until Myhre posted an update that refunds were coming soon. I came here to update everyone about the refunds, and attached my own personal thoughts in a new post, and main post.@StrikeCommando I have zero intention of making Mhyre sound like a hero, and will go one step further to say that I didn't make him sound like a hero at all.
I'm absolutely not saying that he is to be excused, but at least he's not trying to hide like other Kickstarter creators. You are welcome to disagree with my own personal views, and removal of calling him a con-artist, scammer, etc- but I refuse to continue attacking someone who is trying to do right. You can continue to call him whatever you like, but I will personally no longer host those words as promised earlier in the year.
Will admits that he knowingly lowballed how much money he needed for Midora. He needed 40-50 thousand dollars more than he set his goal for. This revelation came over a year after he was 'successfully' funded.
So, given that information, how can anyone believe that this guy anything but a fraud and charlatan?
Midora's development history indicates some Incompetence, and clearly displays an inexperienced first-time game developer.
You take one look at the main description of Midora, and the first thing that comes across is that this is his first game. You made the decision to support that project, and part ways with your money. Many other much larger projects lowball how much they truly need-- biggest example would be Double Fine's Broken Age: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-07-03-double-fine-needs-more-money-to-complete-broken-age
I can name many that take the money, and cease communications with backers, but cannot name one that offers refunds. His reputation is currently in shatters, and nobody will ever support him in crowdfunding ever again. Isn't that enough for you and other dissatisfied backers? and if not-- isn't a full refund? I understand the unhappy backers, but I also understand the backers that are completely okay with departing with their money.
...If I was coming to a conclusion on anything- it would be that 'some' Midora backers are failing to come to terms that they funded a stinker. Myhre suffered a bad failure and he's trying to do right by refunding you guys, and I want to make sure this old thread updates 'outsiders' on his efforts on to vindicate himself . I hope you guys get your money back, but I also hope you learn from this experience, and become smarter in the future projects you decide support.
You're not getting it bro. I'd have been happy if Will did not intentionally low ball how much he needed to find Midora, ran a successful Kickstarter campaign, and then failed. His goal was 60,000 dollars, but without telling any of his backers until over a year later, needed closer to 110,000 dollars. He raised 73K and called it a success knowing that he didn't have the actual capital needed. He willfully and knowlingly deceived his Kickstarter community. That's not incompetence. That's deceit.
As one of his backers, I believe it to be me right to know where my money went. I've repeatedly asked Will for a hard numbers break down that he refuses to disclose. If he treated any financial institution like this, he'd get nailed to the cross for it.
As one of his backers, I believe it to be me right to know where my money went. I've repeatedly asked Will for a hard numbers break down that he refuses to disclose. If he treated any financial institution like this, he'd get nailed to the cross for it.
Actually I think your "rights" are limited to the KSer terms of service which you freely agreed to.
I doubt you are entitled to much more until a govt agency or court decides to get involved.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Too bad it didn't do well. This looked like a pretty damn good 16 bit Zelda clone. It also looks really good on the KS gameplay video. I don't trust any crowdfunding but i would have purchased this game at launch.
I hope the developer/s continue making it on their own free time even if it takes many years, maybe as a hobby project like the metroid fans did their AM2R remake. I think any project you make can help you grow your developer portfolio.
1: Per the KS terms of use, here are the creator's obligations when a project has failed.
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
This was not accomplished. He says all the money was used on the game and bills, however he has refused to break it down further.
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
Nope. That didn't happen either.
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
This is why I want a break down of how funding was spent. It would satisfy this caveat.
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
You can't tell me that setting a goal of 60,000, and then over a year later say you needed 40,000-50,000 more and you knew that from the get go. You do no get to pull they one off and then claim honesty. You don't get to put a time line on material rewards knowing you don't have the funding to produce said rewards and claim honesty.
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
Refunds were put on the table a year ago. Then a year of silence. This caveat does not have anything about a timeline, so he gets a win on this one.
2: Yeah. I made a bet and lost. However I made a bet against stacked odds that no one knew about but the guy taking the money. It's like being told I have 3 to 1 odds on a roulette game, and while the ball is spinning, after the guy at the wheel says no more bets, that he tells you that no matter where the ball is going to land, you're going to lose. People on this board appear to be using phrases like 'incompetence' and 'lack of experience' but not 'cheat' or 'swindler.'
You're not getting it bro. I'd have been happy if Will did not intentionally low ball how much he needed to find Midora, ran a successful Kickstarter campaign, and then failed. His goal was 60,000 dollars, but without telling any of his backers until over a year later, needed closer to 110,000 dollars. He raised 73K and called it a success knowing that he didn't have the actual capital needed. He willfully and knowlingly deceived his Kickstarter community. That's not incompetence. That's deceit.
Nobody is defending his actions- or his confession of taking in less than he truly needed. I believe many other projects are guilty of starting a Kickstarter, and asking for less than what they truly need for the sake of having a successful project. The major difference between those projects, and this one is that they never confess to it. -- Keep in mind his reputation as a Game Developer is shattered and this confession could be used against him in his future projects.
They post an update that explains
what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them
from finishing the project as planned;
This was not
accomplished. He says all the money was used on the game and bills,
however he has refused to break it down further.
I agree that he could've done a much better job breaking it down, and should consider revisiting it. I contacted him on twitter earlier in the year and asked if he would provide deeper details in this area, and here was his response half a year ago.
They work diligently and in good faith to bring the
project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s
communicated to backers;
Nope. That didn't happen either.
He said it would take until next summer to deliver refunds Jan-2016, and
now he is pushing to make his promise of refunding backers into
reality. He also intends to continue the project in the distant future.
They’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
You can't tell me that setting a goal of 60,000, and then over a year later say you needed 40,000-50,000 more and you knew that from the get go. You do no get to pull they one off and then claim honesty. You don't get to put a time line on material rewards knowing you don't have the funding to produce said rewards and claim honesty.
I replied to this in my first paragraph, but I will say it again. Nobody is defending his confession of taking in less than he needed. Kickstarter project creators that do this should never be allowed to start another crowdfunding campaign ever again. You may have funded a stinker, but you were also apart of putting an end to his wrongdoings. You got a confession out of him which will probably be used against him in his future projects.
People on this board appear to be using phrases like 'incompetence' and 'lack of experience' but not 'cheat' or 'swindler.'
I called him incompetent and inexperienced- because he has shown over the years to be just that! He didn't have the experience to push his project past the finish line. He failed to properly communicate with his backers throughout development. He failed to show any real progress during development. He failed to properly manage $50,000. He focused on spending all that money on talent, assets, bills & food. -- with little to no results!
Not a single person here is defending or supporting his past actions.
The point is, regardless of whether or not he's claiming he plans on refunding the money to backers, he lied. He ran a fraudulent campaign from the start, knowing he wouldn't have enough money to fund his project....knowing he was asking for less than 50% of what was needed, deceitfully pretending that the game was practically finished and just needed to get a nudge over the edge when in fact there wasn't even 2 minutes worth of an alpha. He swindled backers out of $70,000 that he still doesn't intend to pay back in full, nor in a realistic timeframe. His current plan will take 10-30 years to pay everyone back...when he never should have asked for or accepted the money int he first place.
He relied on stretch goals like a fool- hoping he would get more than what he was asking. Many projects do this in hopes of going past the finish line, and many fail without ever confessing any wrongdoing. Your money is spent and gone- but it was spent on the game. Once again- even if he refunds backers... nobody will forget the past.
He surely won't-- but I do hope in a way- that everyone will be able to move on from this, that everyone will learn from this.
--This is unrelated to the above discussions--
I found a very distant link to the true origins of Midora that may be of interest to readers. In a way- It shows that he did spent money on his own project (August; 2011)
Midora's failed indiegogo was in 2013, and first failed Kickstarter in Dec-2013, and third Kickstarter in June-2014.
Here he is looking to hire people years before his crowdfunding campaign in 2011- using the Orx Engine--- and the most interesting bit is that it wasn't called Midora.
I'll do my best to make sure this isn't one sided by quoting you in a screen shot. Why don't you make an account here, so I don't have to quote you when you refer to me in your posts. The same invite to this thread extends to all Kickstarter backers of Midora!
My personal thoughts on all of your 'spam-like' posts is that they are all very popcorn/spam worthy. I read half of the post you mention, and concluded it was a glorious amount of spam, and perhaps some wasted time and effort.
Now that I know you will read this... I'm curious how much you supported Midora for? and if you intend to ask for a refund once available. I'm intentionally baiting you to answer here- but I will respond to you no matter the site.
--- EDIT: I deleted my initial shock post edit on the first page, as I no longer feel as shocked about that happening anymore. You can find the reaction recorded- 8 posts above this one. I will continue updating this thread on the latest events surrounding Midora, and will try to stay neutral as possible.
Is this better? Yeah. I know. The mask really throws people off.
I pledged 25 bucks, which I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the range of 25 bucks more than you backed.
And just my perspective here, but once it became clear to me that Midora was nothing more than a scam, I concluded that it's nothing more than a joke. Not even a running joke. Powerwalking joke, maybe, but running requires more effort. The punchline is that there are still people that will even insinuate that it's not a black and white fraud and even applaud Will for what they previeve as effort. Yes, I've backed multiple Kickstarter projects that have bombed or are in the process of bombing, but Willie over here at Midora habitually made excuses his lack of action instead of any viable attempt to rectify his actions initially and he's been straight up arrogant. Yes, I understand that Midora is his creative baby or some sympathetic lament. However when you intentionally undershoot your budget and then refuse to let another company give you hand, that's not defending your creative integrity. That's denying your customer base the product you promised.
So yes. It's a joke. I'll treat Midora as such until I'm no longer laughing.
Thanks for taking the time for verifying yourself as a backer, and taking the time to share your perspective. My goal is not to piss off backers of this project, or defend how this project was grossly handled. I probably shouldn't of weighed in as I already have on PG.5- and won't add anything more on my end. @StrikeCommando@HereToHeckle
As a heads up for my next post- I will probably be editing the title once the next update is posted.
7/25/17 (The update is not out yet--- Yes- It's late! Im posting for a different reason)
Matter resolved. I simply wish to update the thread on the
latest events surrounding Midora, and to do so without changing hearts,
minds, opinions surrounding this project. I highly doubt any of my words had any affect on anyone's opinion on the game, developer, or backers of the project.
@StrikeCommando Post here or PM me so we can solve
this issue you have with me and the thread so I can resolve it. I plan to change the title once the update comes out to reflect his latest update. I promise to do a better job!
---- Edit: I'll make sure to strike a neutral stance in my next title choice and edit the main post to contain the previous story and the latest update on refunds.
I haven't logged in since my last reply and haven't seen your edits and re-edits to correct your comments. And Kickstarter doesn't let you delete comments once committed so since I didn't see your corrections, there's not much I can do to undo the comment. I still feel like you're being too lenient on the guy, and maybe that's because it wasn't your money he took under fraudulent pretenses....I suspect if you were in our shoes, you might feel differently. But I acknowledge your corrections.
Well at least he is doing the right thing more can I say about one game that I backed that I really regret backing, which has made me never back an Indie game with such a small development team again as a result especially if outside of the U.S, yes Kickstarter is always full of drama, but now I only back big projects on Kickstarter like "Crow Fall & Ashes OF Creation" because both studios have a decent amount of people, lots of updates and look promising.
Update 52 - Refunds are live. has been released 8/17/17!
Unfortunately- its locked to backersonly!
It would be cool if a current backer with access to Update 52- could screencap (or copy and paste some text) of the main post, including some comments which may be of interestor fun to read.
(Excluding any important links which could compromise the refunding process.)
Comments
I've now decided to take any future business to IndieGogo who actually states clearly in their policy that they hold creators accountable, versus Kickstarter and their blatant distancing from all responsibility.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/posts/1906644
One backer has jumped to conclusions. I want to make clear that no conclusions have been made on my end.
He is soon to be offering refunds, and is still communicating with his backers. I suppose after two years of making mistakes of my own- and learning from those mistakes has made me far more apologetic to those who make mistakes. As the other MMORPG.com users have said in this thread. Try to be KS-Smart with your money, and only support projects with experienced developers, and those with previous crowdfunding success, oh- and a real tech demo perhaps.His reputation may be ruined for the time being, but that does not mean he cannot try to right a wrong.
---
Edit: This was originally apart of the front page message, later removed. A massive post bomb shell hits the ground and devastates everything in its path! Midora is cancelled! Turn the clock two years later, and now the ground and plants are beginning to heal! This is a story of a man who did not take the money and run, and is instead on the heels of doing something which almost never happens. Instead of going silent and hiding in the shadows- he instead stands up and faces his failure head on!
----
I changed the title of the thread (6/9/2017) as my mood/views towards this guy has honestly changed quite a bit after reading a post in the latest update explaining to backers as to why he is offering full refunds. He is interacting with backers instead of hiding in the shadows, and I cant help but 'sorta like em' for trying to own up to his failure and face it head on. I created this thread because Midora lacked communication with his own backers, and I thought by creating this thread it would raise discussions on projects that have poor communication with their own backers.
He does not owe his backers anything (my opinion) and it's clear that money was indeed spent on Midora development (but in the wrong places) such as on an incomplete engine for example instead of using Unity that would've allowed him to focus on world building and content creation. (Please check out page 3 which investigates the work done by the past developers of Midora; and we concluded that professional work had been done- certainly not for free.) and we continue to see promising postings of someone who is trying to make a real effort to redeem himself.
Once again full disclosure; I'm not a backer of this project! I just wanted to write up a fun popcorn worthy story- and I got what I wanted two years ago and moved on.... but now that story is changing and well... my faith is slowly being restored in him and he may be able to stick it to other kickstarters that show zero communication, or make little to no real efforts to restoring ones reputation.
6/8/2017 - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/posts/1906644
image: http://forums.mmorpg.com/uploads/editor/ad/fyrz0cqsqb9w.png
He's a total fraud, and likely the only reason he's offering refunds are the [at least] 5 FTC complaints filed against him, and other legal pressures backers have started to pressure him with. He's likely banking on the people who are kind enough to say "keep my money" to get him out of this mess he created, and STILL he's keeping money given to him under fraudulent pretenses.
This thread was originally created to share a story of a KS-Project that was refusing to update its backers for months on end. I wanted to create a discussion on KS projects that go radio silent, and run away with the money. It was the case for a while- but Mhyre eventually told how things were truly going on. He streamed publicly on Twitch and explained his situation, and while it was incredibly boring- it was also quite revealing and at that point I sorta moved on from Midora.
As a non backer of Midora- I feel awful for all those who invested money into a failed project. I do still believe you are entitled to something. However, my views have vastly changed over the years. You support a project on KS- and you basically kiss your money goodbye. I can no longer view him in a negative light, when he is so desperately trying to be seen in a positive light. I cannot name a single project that has ever considered refunding backers on KS.
He had professional artists, and sound designers (*& More) who were clearly paid. We investigated the fraud, con-artist, scammer, claims in a very long earlier investigation post which debunked it all. Money was indeed spent on Midora, but certainly not in the right area's. We received a tech-demo which showed the shard engine in action. He should've used the Unity engine which could've done everything they created in shard from the very start.
I still believe he is very inexperienced, and definitely bit more than he could chew. It was clear that it was his first game, and everything about the game's description indicates an inexperienced game developer. I highly doubt a project like Midora would pass 30k pledges in 2017. Tons of people have learned from their mistakes, and lots of people seem a bit crowdfunding smarter compared to two years ago.
I agree that KS-projects that seek less money than they actually need is wrong and misleading AF) but many projects sadly already do this- and try to 'make it'. Mhyre never claimed to know much about game development. He hired others who were skillful in game development, and tried to lead them too a loss which still burns surely. However- we're talking about an inexperienced guy here, and his first game- and technically his first Kickstarter Project.
I want to tell you to broaden your horizons a bit, but I don't think you want to bother doing that for Midora or Mhyre in your above post. I understand the frustration of supporting a project that failed to come to life, but most people these days would chalk it as a loss and move on now. I refuse to continue to bash and put pressure on someone- when they are making an effort to appeal. I cannot fully understand as to why you're still upset, when I thought your goal was getting something in return. However- now it seems you want more than just your money back.
Now, let's bump up to 5 October 2015. Will admits that he knowingly lowballed how much money he needed for Midora. He needed 40-50 thousand dollars more than he set his goal for. This revelation came over a year after he was 'successfully' funded.
So, given that information, how can anyone believe that this guy anything but a fraud and charlatan?
Sure, he's 'offering refunds,' and some people have already said they don't want refunds. So he won't be paying full price in the end. Also, you're not eligible for a refund unless you go through PayPal (according to Will). There will be some people who go, "Screw it. I don't want a PayPal account. He can have my money." Will will be paying substantially less than what he raised.
But let's take a Midora doomsday scenario. Everyone gets PayPal and everyone wants their money back. Will has told me (and I've got the email traffic on this one) that once refunds start, he'll be able to refund between 200-400 dollars per month. He raised 73K and change. Even if he manages to stick to this budget and timetable, it'll take between 15 and 30 years for everyone to be refunded.
For those who didn't back Midora and are backing Will now, you're deluded. Myself and The Lucha Dork and Tracey and Strike Commando who got front row seats to this debacle. We're not armchair quarterbacking it because we were in the game (figuratively speaking, as no game exists).
Welcome to the mmorpg.com Midora discussion! //Thanks David / @StrikeCommando for putting this thread on the radar and giving exposure!//
I want to make clear that no conclusions have been made, and that any text post made by me, and all my own views on the project can change at anytime. My personal views on the project does not mean any other readers from mmorpg.com feel the same way. I have the ability to change the title of the thread, and the contents of every single post I made. This week I made some changes to spin a fair view, to the upcoming changes. All backers who read this are invited to join the discussion on mmorpg.com and this thread to provide more insight into Midora.
I created this thread because Midora and the developer, lacked proper communication with his own backers. I thought by creating this thread it would raise discussions on projects that have poor communication with their own backers. This discussion has long passed, and the developer has properly passed on communication. The moment the developer came clean, and admitted the project was not moving forward- was when the thread served its purpose.
The thread has largely been inactive in the past year- up until Myhre posted an update that refunds were coming soon. I came here to update everyone about the refunds, and attached my own personal thoughts in a new post, and main post. @StrikeCommando I have zero intention of making Mhyre sound like a hero, and will go one step further to say that I didn't make him sound like a hero at all.
I'm absolutely not saying that he is to be excused, but at least he's not trying to hide like other Kickstarter creators. You are welcome to disagree with my own personal views, and removal of calling him a con-artist, scammer, etc- but I refuse to continue attacking someone who is trying to do right. You can continue to call him whatever you like, but I will personally no longer host those words as promised earlier in the year.
Midora's development history indicates some Incompetence, and clearly displays an inexperienced first-time game developer.
You take one look at the main description of Midora, and the first thing that comes across is that this is his first game. You made the decision to support that project, and part ways with your money. Many other much larger projects lowball how much they truly need-- biggest example would be Double Fine's Broken Age: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-07-03-double-fine-needs-more-money-to-complete-broken-age
I can name many that take the money, and cease communications with backers, but cannot name one that offers refunds. His reputation is currently in shatters, and nobody will ever support him in crowdfunding ever again. Isn't that enough for you and other dissatisfied backers? and if not-- isn't a full refund? I understand the unhappy backers, but I also understand the backers that are completely okay with departing with their money.
...If I was coming to a conclusion on anything- it would be that 'some' Midora backers are failing to come to terms that they funded a stinker. Myhre suffered a bad failure and he's trying to do right by refunding you guys, and I want to make sure this old thread updates 'outsiders' on his efforts on to vindicate himself . I hope you guys get your money back, but I also hope you learn from this experience, and become smarter in the future projects you decide support.
I doubt you are entitled to much more until a govt agency or court decides to get involved.
Quite honestly, you made a bad bet and lost.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hope the developer/s continue making it on their own free time even if it takes many years, maybe as a hobby project like the metroid fans did their AM2R remake. I think any project you make can help you grow your developer portfolio.
Just my thoughts.
1: Per the KS terms of use, here are the creator's obligations when a project has failed.
- they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
This was not accomplished. He says all the money was used on the game and bills, however he has refused to break it down further.- they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
Nope. That didn't happen either.they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
This is why I want a break down of how funding was spent. It would satisfy this caveat.
- they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
You can't tell me that setting a goal of 60,000, and then over a year later say you needed 40,000-50,000 more and you knew that from the get go. You do no get to pull they one off and then claim honesty. You don't get to put a time line on material rewards knowing you don't have the funding to produce said rewards and claim honesty.- they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
Refunds were put on the table a year ago. Then a year of silence. This caveat does not have anything about a timeline, so he gets a win on this one.2: Yeah. I made a bet and lost. However I made a bet against stacked odds that no one knew about but the guy taking the money. It's like being told I have 3 to 1 odds on a roulette game, and while the ball is spinning, after the guy at the wheel says no more bets, that he tells you that no matter where the ball is going to land, you're going to lose. People on this board appear to be using phrases like 'incompetence' and 'lack of experience' but not 'cheat' or 'swindler.'
I agree that he could've done a much better job breaking it down, and should consider revisiting it. I contacted him on twitter earlier in the year and asked if he would provide deeper details in this area, and here was his response half a year ago.
He said it would take until next summer to deliver refunds Jan-2016, and now he is pushing to make his promise of refunding backers into reality. He also intends to continue the project in the distant future.
I replied to this in my first paragraph, but I will say it again. Nobody is defending his confession of taking in less than he needed. Kickstarter project creators that do this should never be allowed to start another crowdfunding campaign ever again. You may have funded a stinker, but you were also apart of putting an end to his wrongdoings. You got a confession out of him which will probably be used against him in his future projects.
I called him incompetent and inexperienced- because he has shown over the years to be just that! He didn't have the experience to push his project past the finish line. He failed to properly communicate with his backers throughout development. He failed to show any real progress during development. He failed to properly manage $50,000. He focused on spending all that money on talent, assets, bills & food. -- with little to no results!
Not a single person here is defending or supporting his past actions.
He relied on stretch goals like a fool- hoping he would get more than what he was asking. Many projects do this in hopes of going past the finish line, and many fail without ever confessing any wrongdoing. Your money is spent and gone- but it was spent on the game. Once again- even if he refunds backers... nobody will forget the past.
He surely won't-- but I do hope in a way- that everyone will be able to move on from this, that everyone will learn from this.
--This is unrelated to the above discussions--
I found a very distant link to the true origins of Midora that may be of interest to readers. In a way- It shows that he did spent money on his own project (August; 2011)
Here he is looking to hire people years before his crowdfunding campaign in 2011- using the Orx Engine--- and the most interesting bit is that it wasn't called Midora.
Project Milana: (Year 2011)
https://mail.orx-project.org/forum?func=view&catid=13&id=3118http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12667
He was also a Pixel Artist
http://pixeljoint.com/p/34085.htm
Don't worry!
I'll do my best to make sure this isn't one sided by quoting you in a screen shot. Why don't you make an account here, so I don't have to quote you when you refer to me in your posts. The same invite to this thread extends to all Kickstarter backers of Midora!
My personal thoughts on all of your 'spam-like' posts is that they are all very popcorn/spam worthy. I read half of the post you mention, and concluded it was a glorious amount of spam, and perhaps some wasted time and effort.
Now that I know you will read this... I'm curious how much you supported Midora for? and if you intend to ask for a refund once available. I'm intentionally baiting you to answer here- but I will respond to you no matter the site.
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EDIT: I deleted my initial shock post edit on the first page, as I no longer feel as shocked about that happening anymore. You can find the reaction recorded- 8 posts above this one. I will continue updating this thread on the latest events surrounding Midora, and will try to stay neutral as possible.
I pledged 25 bucks, which I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the range of 25 bucks more than you backed.
And just my perspective here, but once it became clear to me that Midora was nothing more than a scam, I concluded that it's nothing more than a joke. Not even a running joke. Powerwalking joke, maybe, but running requires more effort. The punchline is that there are still people that will even insinuate that it's not a black and white fraud and even applaud Will for what they previeve as effort. Yes, I've backed multiple Kickstarter projects that have bombed or are in the process of bombing, but Willie over here at Midora habitually made excuses his lack of action instead of any viable attempt to rectify his actions initially and he's been straight up arrogant. Yes, I understand that Midora is his creative baby or some sympathetic lament. However when you intentionally undershoot your budget and then refuse to let another company give you hand, that's not defending your creative integrity. That's denying your customer base the product you promised.
So yes. It's a joke. I'll treat Midora as such until I'm no longer laughing.
As a heads up for my next post- I will probably be editing the title once the next update is posted.
@StrikeCommando Post here or PM me so we can solve this issue you have with me and the thread so I can resolve it. I plan to change the title once the update comes out to reflect his latest update. I promise to do a better job!
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Edit: I'll make sure to strike a neutral stance in my next title choice and edit the main post to contain the previous story and the latest update on refunds.
Unfortunately- its locked to backers only!
It would be cool if a current backer with access to Update 52- could screencap (or copy and paste some text) of the main post, including some comments which may be of interest or fun to read.
(Excluding any important links which could compromise the refunding process.)
Questions:
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Mhyre has made his twitter account private and pledged to cease communications to his Kickstarter backers after an explosive back and forth argument in the public Kickstarter comments. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/comments