The amount of whining about multiboxing is comical. I have seen lots of multiboxers in various games and yet i did the unthinkable...i ignored them and played with my friends...can you imagine that...i still had fun with the evil multiboxers all around me.
I'm more worried about what it will say about Pantheon if players are able to effectively box multiple characters.
Personally, I don't mind if people box as long as its far less efficient. If some guy is buffing and healing himself, slowly grinding away, that's not so much of a problem. In such a scenario, that person would likely welcome real people to join his group because it should drastically increase his group performance. If not, there is an issue.
Maybe, but the boxing would have to be so inefficient that it wouldn't even be worth playing two accounts at that point. Even at a 50% effectiveness rate, many people would still box to avoid having to be social and/or feeling obligated to a group.
The amount of whining about multiboxing is comical. I have seen lots of multiboxers in various games and yet i did the unthinkable...i ignored them and played with my friends...can you imagine that...i still had fun with the evil multiboxers all around me.
good lord the drama queens here are the best.
Yes, because ignoring things always seems to work out, especially in games where group dependency is an issue.
Look, these aren't whines, they are legitimate concerns. Dismissing such is just due to ignorance or approval.
Here's an example, of why multiboxing is unfair I feel.
I used to pull everything in PoN, plane of nightmare, onto one of my higher level characters. I leveled characters to lvl 70 in around 3 days. Other people took months.
By the time my character was lvl 70, the character hadn't killed a single mob by herself, she had never even casted a single spell. The only thing the character did was stand there and take XP for 70 levels without dying once.
And you could argue, that people who had higher level raid characters, should be granted the right to just level as many alts as quickly as possible.
I had every class in EQ at one point at max level.
But deep down inside, I knew it was completely unfair. It was only through multiboxing, through higher level characters, that you could so easily exploit the game like that.
You could PL like that with friends, but it was only through multiboxing that you could continuously level characters for your guild, that you could have whichever buffs you wanted on you 24/7, it was completely unfair.
EQ will always be my favorite MMO, but it will also always be the most unfair game I ever played. And multiboxing greatly attributed to the fact why the game wasn't fair.
Wait, what? YOU ruined YOUR EQ experience and now you wish to save others from doing likewise? Guess what, they don't want or need you to save them.
I multiboxed often in the early MMORPGS, including L1/2, DAOC, WOW and currently have 6 accts in EVE. It seems unnatural to not do so.
Understand though, I don't script or bot any of them, I run them all manually with a follow command being the only thing I use if the game supports it.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
Most of the objections in this thread are more a case of jealousy by people who can't or don't want to multibox rather than a real concern about damaging the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here's an example, of why multiboxing is unfair I feel.
I used to pull everything in PoN, plane of nightmare, onto one of my higher level characters. I leveled characters to lvl 70 in around 3 days. Other people took months.
By the time my character was lvl 70, the character hadn't killed a single mob by herself, she had never even casted a single spell. The only thing the character did was stand there and take XP for 70 levels without dying once.
And you could argue, that people who had higher level raid characters, should be granted the right to just level as many alts as quickly as possible.
I had every class in EQ at one point at max level.
But deep down inside, I knew it was completely unfair. It was only through multiboxing, through higher level characters, that you could so easily exploit the game like that.
You could PL like that with friends, but it was only through multiboxing that you could continuously level characters for your guild, that you could have whichever buffs you wanted on you 24/7, it was completely unfair.
EQ will always be my favorite MMO, but it will also always be the most unfair game I ever played. And multiboxing greatly attributed to the fact why the game wasn't fair.
Wait, what? YOU ruined YOUR EQ experience and now you wish to save others from doing likewise? Guess what, they don't want or need you to save them.
I multiboxed often in the early MMORPGS, including L1/2, DAOC, WOW and currently have 6 accts in EVE. It seems unnatural to not do so.
Understand though, I don't script or bot any of them, I run them all manually with a follow command being the only thing I use if the game supports it.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
Most of the objections in this thread are more a case of jealousy by people who can't or don't want to multibox rather than a real concern about damaging the game.
LOL. Not a surpise you are an eve player when you throw around stupid arguments like "you don't like it because you are jealous". What next, if we say we don't care for PvP, it is because we are unskilled care bears?
An idiot can multibox these days. There is no skill in it, none.
Let me take a page from your play book though....
You don't want the to stop multi-boxing because you are afraid you might actually have to play the game, group with others and with social skills like you display above, that would mean a lot of time "LFG" and whining in chat.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
You don't want the to stop multi-boxing because you are afraid you might actually have to play the game, group with others and with social skills like you display above, that would mean a lot of time "LFG" and whining in chat.
/shrug
Here i helped you understand what he was saying better.
He does not seem to be afraid to play the game as he already groups and boxes as well.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
You don't want the to stop multi-boxing because you are afraid you might actually have to play the game, group with others and with social skills like you display above, that would mean a lot of time "LFG" and whining in chat.
/shrug
Here i helped you understand what he was saying better.
He does not seem to be afraid to play the game as he already groups and boxes as well.
reading ftw.
Of course he does, he is an excellent driver as well!
I know his type. They are are full of it. He bots because he gains advantage, he also probably RMTs a lot as well and is a big supporter of such.
He is afraid his gimmicks won't be able to be used. Seen his type long before he was born.
The thing is, the line between botting and boxing is so incredibly thin, that even AAA gaming companies are having huge issues trying to police these things right now. Archeage has 1000s of bots going around farming everything in sight to be sure to have stock to sell to players via gold selling sites.
It really is an inevitability these days, but that is not to say you can't stop it and just don't try, in fact quite the opposite. It is so game-breaking and immersion ruining that it needs to be vigorously policed and stopped.
The reason there are so many bots in Archeage and they can't just remove them is because every time they ban a suspected bot, that person running it can just put in a ticket saying they made a mistake, and due to their customer service policies they really can't do anything other than unban them, there is no 100% guaranteed way to prove they were botting.
The only way to stop bots IMO is to do what Korea has done to stop it... force players to link their Social Security #'s to their accounts. And since that's not going to happen in America anytime soon, I'd say the best way we can deal with it is to take a hard-line stance, and putting boots on the ground (GM's) to sniff them out.
This may seem off topic, but it is not. Botting and boxing are one in the same, this coming from a person who has watched so many friends bot and box in games, when boxing if you cannot achieve what you desire in game, you WILL find other means to make it happen outside of game.
While a low percentage of players may do this, it only takes a that low percentage to ruin the game for everyone playing it. Case Example : Everquest progression server recently, there were 40 man bot raids doing raid bosses faster and more efficiently than any 40 real person squad could, and dungeon content was being monopolized by 6 mage groups farming loot to sell and make krono's and sell those for RL money.
TL:DR Boxing and botting will not be stopped, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't vigorously try, and in my opinion, both should be 100% illegal.
TL:DR Boxing and botting will not be stopped, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't vigorously try, and in my opinion, both should be 100% illegal.
Having logging and reporting tools in the game that are designed to catch botting can go a long way to stopping it. Most of the time as you said, someone reports them, then they contest it and the whole thing gets very difficult to establish, but... if there are special tools that they could create for reporting that could verify this and the only thing that needs to happen is another player sees it, turns on their logs/video/etc... and reports the activity after documenting it, well... you could have a much higher chance of validating a given occurrence.
As you said, you can't stop it, but you can make it very risky and unprofitable to do it.
I still think the best way is to have a server that bans it and allow it on other servers. It would be a nice case study as well, to see how such things truly affect the social environment.
I think it would be fair to assume that most of those who want a strict rule set server (Corpse runs, Harsh penalties, difficult travel, limited view options, you look like what you use, etc...) tend to agree along the same lines (though there are always some differing opinions) that anything that hampers the effort and goal of the game to be a bad thing.
Most of the objections in this thread are more a case of jealousy
People have been over these multibox arguments in games like EQ for over a decade.
I have listened to all excuses,
from "why does it bother you, I'm not hurting anyone", to "I still invite other players", to "it's just jealousy", to "I spend more money on the game, therefore I deserve more power". to "I only have 30 minutes to play and no time to group"
These same arguments pop up in other MMO, but they're the same arguments.
I have always felt that "It isn't fair", is the best argument againt multiboxing.
The gripe people have is that it is fundamentally unfair, I happen to agree with that argument, it's a much more solid argument that any of the pro-multiboxing excuses.
Will instantly decide to not play this game if it allows multiboxing.
Read the links CalmOceans provided, they are thinking of having it on the special rules server. So, if they allow that, we are golden and there will be no reason for someone to try and justify doing it on that special server.
Actually, CalmsOceans is citing to an EQ link.
Adamantine has the links to Pantheon forums where Kilsin said: "Boxing will be allowed, but the way our characters and abilities are set up it will make it very hard. We will not tolerate cheats, gold farmers or botting programs but having multiple accounts to dual box is perfectly fine."
The problem is with how to make a multi-boxed character extremely less efficient than playing a single character, while still implementing a slower-paced combat system. Even then, a gamer could probably easily work around most changes by using programmable keyboards/mice/joysticks. To prevent it, you might need a mechanism like mobs that are constantly moving, and in a way that can frustrate ranged in addition to melee DPS. I cannot see how to frustrate a healer as the second box without frustrating everyone in the process.
Simple easy way to discourage multiboxing and make it harder is to have alt tabing to each account screen go black for x amount of seconds before it comes back to graphical view, or simply add that black screen and lag for a few seconds before the screen goes back to the game screen. This deters multiboxing and also makes it so people can't use cheats or want to try. For dual monitors it would be the same way.
Now not many people have a second gaming computer next to their main box, but if a player has a second PC then the above ways would not work, then you would have to implement an ip restriction where only one account can be logged in at a time to the server from a single ip, if you want more than one you would then have to pay a fee to unlock a second account and then have to abide by special rules.
Isn't it cheating if someone has more time then me and can therefore play twice as much? He has an advantage on me! Isn't it cheating if someone has more friends and can farm dungeons more then i can? He has an advantage on me! Isn't it cheating if someone is plain out better then me and can kill harder mobs for faster xp? He has an advantage on me!
There are dozens of reasons why people get an advantage. If you are a good player no multiboxer in his right mind would NOT invite you to a group and replace one of his toons. If someone can box 6 toons better then you can play a single toon, it is not his fault.
Everyone can multibox since it will be allowed. Everyone has exactly the same chance. Just because some people choose to not use it, does not make it an exploit. Devs make the rules, not players. And don't get into the story of "morale". Morale is differend all over the world. Just compare USA / EU. One blocks everything that is remotly related to sex, but allows everyone to shoot at will... the other does the exact opposite. Both think "their" morale is supperior.
You can not argue with "morale" in a game that is ultimately played worldwide. So the only rules that matter are the rules that the devs make. It is their game, not yours. You are only choosing to play it, or not.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
You cant stop multi boxing and shouldn't. If someone has the ability to do it, who cares.
It's relatively easy to stop multi-boxing, but no company has tried it yet. Simply require a credit card to play, and perform a duplicate address rejection on the account residence address provided by the credit card provider. That way, if they want to multi-box a specific game, then they will have to provide false information to the credit card companies before they mess with your game. And obtaining a credit card under false pretenses can have severe consequences.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You cant stop multi boxing and shouldn't. If someone has the ability to do it, who cares.
It's relatively easy to stop multi-boxing, but no company has tried it yet. Simply require a credit card to play, and perform a duplicate address rejection on the account residence address provided by the credit card provider. That way, if they want to multi-box a specific game, then they will have to provide false information to the credit card companies before they mess with your game. And obtaining a credit card under false pretenses can have severe consequences.
So if i pay a game account for my son and want to play as well,..we are screwed. Same goes for all the families that use a family bank account and therefore have the same CC for every member of the family.
Also there are QUITE a few countries that do not commonly use credit cards at all and most people don't even have one. So either way: That would not work, like at all.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
You cant stop multi boxing and shouldn't. If someone has the ability to do it, who cares.
It's relatively easy to stop multi-boxing, but no company has tried it yet. Simply require a credit card to play, and perform a duplicate address rejection on the account residence address provided by the credit card provider. That way, if they want to multi-box a specific game, then they will have to provide false information to the credit card companies before they mess with your game. And obtaining a credit card under false pretenses can have severe consequences.
So if i pay a game account for my son and want to play as well,..we are screwed. Same goes for all the families that use a family bank account and therefore have the same CC for every member of the family.
Also there are QUITE a few countries that do not commonly use credit cards at all and most people don't even have one. So either way: That would not work, like at all.
There are ways to work with that, even if it just flags your account to be monitored for such behavior as that would go a long ways to narrowing down possible offenders.
As for the CC issue, the idea of having to have a CC for a sub is not something new, lots of companies did it for years, so this wouldn't be an issue.
Point is, it can be greatly limited if a company desires it, though most companies really don't care. Though we can see where that attitude got us with games today. /shrug
Isn't it cheating if someone has more time then me and can therefore play twice as much? He has an advantage on me! Isn't it cheating if someone has more friends and can farm dungeons more then i can? He has an advantage on me! Isn't it cheating if someone is plain out better then me and can kill harder mobs for faster xp? He has an advantage on me!
There are dozens of reasons why people get an advantage. If you are a good player no multiboxer in his right mind would NOT invite you to a group and replace one of his toons. If someone can box 6 toons better then you can play a single toon, it is not his fault.
Everyone can multibox since it will be allowed. Everyone has exactly the same chance. Just because some people choose to not use it, does not make it an exploit. Devs make the rules, not players. And don't get into the story of "morale". Morale is differend all over the world. Just compare USA / EU. One blocks everything that is remotly related to sex, but allows everyone to shoot at will... the other does the exact opposite. Both think "their" morale is supperior.
You can not argue with "morale" in a game that is ultimately played worldwide. So the only rules that matter are the rules that the devs make. It is their game, not yours. You are only choosing to play it, or not.
It isn't about advantage. Anyone making that argument is starting with a false premise. It is about the action of such having a negative result on the game. This is important because many aspects of the games features are designed to require people to play the game within those intended realms. Circumventing those intended play mechanics can have serious consequences on the intent of the game. That is, if you build a game that is centered around group dynamics, social reliance, group based content and play in order to facilitate such interaction and then allow people through technical circumvention to disregard it, then it kind of defeats your initial sales pitch.
If you don't care about that, then you are missing the point of this game.
It isn't about advantage. Anyone making that argument is starting with a false premise. It is about the action of such having a negative result on the game. This is important because many aspects of the games features are designed to require people to play the game within those intended realms. Circumventing those intended play mechanics can have serious consequences on the intent of the game. That is, if you build a game that is centered around group dynamics, social reliance, group based content and play in order to facilitate such interaction and then allow people through technical circumvention to disregard it, then it kind of defeats your initial sales pitch.
If you don't care about that, then you are missing the point of this game.
I do not see it. Here is your negative result...if we say no to boxing....boxers may very well not play at all which will hurt the community because boxers also group and the developers because ya know money pays the bills.
As much as they say they only want so many subs, allot of those subs could come from boxers....also something i have noticed especially in EQ...boxers rarely only box...allot of boxers do it from boredom or for time reasons. So we want to cut off boxers because they somehow mess up our grouping????how exactly???
Did you ever consider some boxers might well say screw it they are not playing the game if they have to group which means less income for the company and less part time groupers...this would be bad in my opinion. I would rather have part time group mates than an empty server.
The boxers do not affect players nearly as much as being said here on these forums...the biggest bs i hear is "oh they can sit on a camp all day and farm loot" or "omfg they are killing all the mobs" well no shit skippy so can me and my friends and we have indeed done that. Boxers are fun to watch, but rarely are they as skilled as a group that always plays together, especially when shit hits the fan and some adds pop up...then the skill difference is drastically different.
Multi-boxing is not anywhere near the top of the possible issues this game will face.
1. Is it hard enough? God i hope so. Make me question every freaking mob i attack...will i die??? there is little to no fear in games nowadays.... 2. Is the level duration really going to feel like it means something to actually level. I would love original EQ level times...did not like hell levels but hell i would rather do those than the shit nowadays. 3. Will the crafting be rewarding or fluff? Make crafting hard but the items truly worthwhile. I hate crafting an item after gathering all the materials only to walk into a dungeon and here have this one it is far superior....make crafting matter.
There are tons of other things that will make this game fail miserably, boxing is not in my opinion in the top 20 worries i have and i would rather have boxer subs than limited subs.
There is only one way a game should prevent multiboxing, and that is by providing gamplay that makes it less desireable to do it. Locking by IP is a stupid idea for a group centric game that will surely attract families or other players who are on the same network. AND the game is Pantheon not Eq, so no one even know yet if multiboxing will be an attractive choice given the game mechanics.
Or said in another way, if the game does not offer sufficient interesting possibilities for playing one character only, then the problem lies with the game and preventing multiboxing will only make less customers.
Also, back before MQ took over all of Eq, multiboxing was not very harmful and for the most part consisting of one secondary account with a rezzer, cr, porter, and playing two accounts in a group was only viable for very specific situations because you would quickly become much less efficient and slow your group down. Those players who wanted to solo never got far with their two-box of a monk/shammy or similar, and certainly never locked down full group content. Nowadays where Eq is a pushover, is a completely different situation.
It isn't about advantage. Anyone making that argument is starting with a false premise. It is about the action of such having a negative result on the game. This is important because many aspects of the games features are designed to require people to play the game within those intended realms. Circumventing those intended play mechanics can have serious consequences on the intent of the game. That is, if you build a game that is centered around group dynamics, social reliance, group based content and play in order to facilitate such interaction and then allow people through technical circumvention to disregard it, then it kind of defeats your initial sales pitch.
If you don't care about that, then you are missing the point of this game.
I do not see it. Here is your negative result...if we say no to boxing....boxers may very well not play at all which will hurt the community because boxers also group and the developers because ya know money pays the bills.
As much as they say they only want so many subs, allot of those subs could come from boxers....also something i have noticed especially in EQ...boxers rarely only box...allot of boxers do it from boredom or for time reasons. So we want to cut off boxers because they somehow mess up our grouping????how exactly???
Did you ever consider some boxers might well say screw it they are not playing the game if they have to group which means less income for the company and less part time groupers...this would be bad in my opinion. I would rather have part time group mates than an empty server.
The boxers do not affect players nearly as much as being said here on these forums...the biggest bs i hear is "oh they can sit on a camp all day and farm loot" or "omfg they are killing all the mobs" well no shit skippy so can me and my friends and we have indeed done that. Boxers are fun to watch, but rarely are they as skilled as a group that always plays together, especially when shit hits the fan and some adds pop up...then the skill difference is drastically different.
Multi-boxing is not anywhere near the top of the possible issues this game will face.
1. Is it hard enough? God i hope so. Make me question every freaking mob i attack...will i die??? there is little to no fear in games nowadays.... 2. Is the level duration really going to feel like it means something to actually level. I would love original EQ level times...did not like hell levels but hell i would rather do those than the shit nowadays. 3. Will the crafting be rewarding or fluff? Make crafting hard but the items truly worthwhile. I hate crafting an item after gathering all the materials only to walk into a dungeon and here have this one it is far superior....make crafting matter.
There are tons of other things that will make this game fail miserably, boxing is not in my opinion in the top 20 worries i have and i would rather have boxer subs than limited subs.
Ok rant over
Have a great day!
K
Interesting, so your objection to this is to say the game will lose those who don't want to be a social part of the game and are looking for a way to bypass the games design so they can solo with multiple characters?
Hmm... Not seeing the problem here.
Also, I never said there weren't other issues to look at, but if you think that boxing can't create problems in a competitive social reliant game, then you aren't being honest.
As for the other issues:
1. Hard is the plan, remember Brads Vision of risk/reward is the foundation of this games focus. You will have to earn your way.
2. I am with you, and I think VR understands this as well, I think levels are going to take quite a while to go through. Remember, the journey is what made EQ great, not the end game. VR understands this.
3. Crafting is a tricky one. They have to be very careful with this and they know it. Some of the scuttlebutt is that crafting may not even directly compete with drops. That would give each focus its own uniqueness and make both valuable.
I understand your concern, but keep in mind many of these things have to be dealt with early on or they become a problem that is unmanageable later. There are far too many skilled "abusers" these days and if you don't establish a solid mechanic of play and consider the contingencies to a given situation, you could end up with with a heck of a lot of problems.
I am not harping on boxing, as I said earlier in the thread boxing has helped games with dwindling populations, but... it can also harm new games with healthy populations. As I said, with this day and age, the technology is easily able to give a single player expert control over numerous accounts at a time with little skill or cost.
So should they put all their time to this? No, but they had better have a game plan to consider it or when/if it becomes a problem, it will ruin the game.
There is only one way a game should prevent multiboxing, and that is by providing gamplay that makes it less desireable to do it. Locking by IP is a stupid idea for a group centric game that will surely attract families or other players who are on the same network. AND the game is Pantheon not Eq, so no one even know yet if multiboxing will be an attractive choice given the game mechanics.
Or said in another way, if the game does not offer sufficient interesting possibilities for playing one character only, then the problem lies with the game and preventing multiboxing will only make less customers.
Also, back before MQ took over all of Eq, multiboxing was not very harmful and for the most part consisting of one secondary account with a rezzer, cr, porter, and playing two accounts in a group was only viable for very specific situations because you would quickly become much less efficient and slow your group down. Those players who wanted to solo never got far with their two-box of a monk/shammy or similar, and certainly never locked down full group content. Nowadays where Eq is a pushover, is a completely different situation.
When multi-boxing started to be used to any real effect on EQ, the game had been out for years, multiple expansions and a severely dwindling population. Boxing was a means that kept games like EQ going, but it would have harmed the game if it was done at release.
As I have explained, it doesn't matter how hard, complex, etc.. they make the game, with tech these days, boxing is not a problem, the tech can handle extremely complex boxing, so there WILL be boxing regardless. So if your argument is that people may not do it because the game is too hard, that is false, laymen will be able to do it (seriously, look around for all the tech out there, an idiot can box without effort in any game these days).
Now as for it being worth it? Always... in a game even remotely like EQ that is group dependent/contested/very rare loot, boxing will be a benefit.
So, it will happen, it will be worth it. This is a fact and with the types of players these days who see any means of gaining such outside game advantage as "part of the game", it will be done often to the detriment to game play.
They will need to deal with it, but... I think it would be a good solution that people be given a choice. What better way to achieve such than with special rule-set servers? This way, boxers can box on open rule set servers and not on closed ones. Seems fair right?
I'm sure it was the dev's first thought to think about multiboxing instead of giving you a couple of copies to give to a friend or family member just to show off how stupid you are for pledging so much.
As I have explained, it doesn't matter how hard, complex, etc.. they make the game, with tech these days, boxing is not a problem, the tech can handle extremely complex boxing, so there WILL be boxing regardless. So if your argument is that people may not do it because the game is too hard, that is false, laymen will be able to do it (seriously, look around for all the tech out there, an idiot can box without effort in any game these days).
All "the tech out there" as you call it, is more cheating than simply boxing. Take for example MQ vs tabbing between sessions - With MQ you can autoheal, autoattack, autobuff, autofollow and all kind of stuff that would be nearly impossible and very inefficient with tabbing.
So back to what I *actually* said in my post.. before the "cheating" software took over and before Eq became eaz-mode. Other than that I will just have to disagree that "any idiot" can box any game these days.. not if you are going to play these games at their full complexity. I would like to see you box ... Neverwinter .. GW2 .. WoW without cheating automated software.
Comments
The amount of whining about multiboxing is comical. I have seen lots of multiboxers in various games and yet i did the unthinkable...i ignored them and played with my friends...can you imagine that...i still had fun with the evil multiboxers all around me.
good lord the drama queens here are the best.
Look, these aren't whines, they are legitimate concerns. Dismissing such is just due to ignorance or approval.
I multiboxed often in the early MMORPGS, including L1/2, DAOC, WOW and currently have 6 accts in EVE. It seems unnatural to not do so.
Understand though, I don't script or bot any of them, I run them all manually with a follow command being the only thing I use if the game supports it.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
Most of the objections in this thread are more a case of jealousy by people who can't or don't want to multibox rather than a real concern about damaging the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
An idiot can multibox these days. There is no skill in it, none.
Let me take a page from your play book though....
You don't want the to stop multi-boxing because you are afraid you might actually have to play the game, group with others and with social skills like you display above, that would mean a lot of time "LFG" and whining in chat.
/shrug
He does not seem to be afraid to play the game as he already groups and boxes as well.
reading ftw.
I know his type. They are are full of it. He bots because he gains advantage, he also probably RMTs a lot as well and is a big supporter of such.
He is afraid his gimmicks won't be able to be used. Seen his type long before he was born.
It really is an inevitability these days, but that is not to say you can't stop it and just don't try, in fact quite the opposite. It is so game-breaking and immersion ruining that it needs to be vigorously policed and stopped.
The reason there are so many bots in Archeage and they can't just remove them is because every time they ban a suspected bot, that person running it can just put in a ticket saying they made a mistake, and due to their customer service policies they really can't do anything other than unban them, there is no 100% guaranteed way to prove they were botting.
The only way to stop bots IMO is to do what Korea has done to stop it... force players to link their Social Security #'s to their accounts. And since that's not going to happen in America anytime soon, I'd say the best way we can deal with it is to take a hard-line stance, and putting boots on the ground (GM's) to sniff them out.
This may seem off topic, but it is not. Botting and boxing are one in the same, this coming from a person who has watched so many friends bot and box in games, when boxing if you cannot achieve what you desire in game, you WILL find other means to make it happen outside of game.
While a low percentage of players may do this, it only takes a that low percentage to ruin the game for everyone playing it. Case Example : Everquest progression server recently, there were 40 man bot raids doing raid bosses faster and more efficiently than any 40 real person squad could, and dungeon content was being monopolized by 6 mage groups farming loot to sell and make krono's and sell those for RL money.
TL:DR Boxing and botting will not be stopped, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't vigorously try, and in my opinion, both should be 100% illegal.
As you said, you can't stop it, but you can make it very risky and unprofitable to do it.
I still think the best way is to have a server that bans it and allow it on other servers. It would be a nice case study as well, to see how such things truly affect the social environment.
I think it would be fair to assume that most of those who want a strict rule set server (Corpse runs, Harsh penalties, difficult travel, limited view options, you look like what you use, etc...) tend to agree along the same lines (though there are always some differing opinions) that anything that hampers the effort and goal of the game to be a bad thing.
Just because I don't think multiboxing is a good idea in games, doesn't mean it ruined anything fro me.
EQ was much more than just multiboxing. And I only did that around Gates. I played 99% of EQ without any multiboxing whatsoever.
I have listened to all excuses,
from "why does it bother you, I'm not hurting anyone",
to "I still invite other players",
to "it's just jealousy",
to "I spend more money on the game, therefore I deserve more power".
to "I only have 30 minutes to play and no time to group"
These same arguments pop up in other MMO, but they're the same arguments.
I have always felt that "It isn't fair", is the best argument againt multiboxing.
The gripe people have is that it is fundamentally unfair, I happen to agree with that argument, it's a much more solid argument that any of the pro-multiboxing excuses.
you can launch 10 EQ instances on a single PC if you want
No, the disagreements have always revolved around the fact, that many people feel multiboxing is unfair, and negatively affects the community.
And after having seen the effects of multiboxing being played out for over a decade, those people against multiboxing, have a solid argument.
In a few weeks, the first EQ server where you can no longer launch more than one instance will be launched.
The argument that multiboxing hurt the community for example, can easily be substantiated.
Now not many people have a second gaming computer next to their main box, but if a player has a second PC then the above ways would not work, then you would have to implement an ip restriction where only one account can be logged in at a time to the server from a single ip, if you want more than one you would then have to pay a fee to unlock a second account and then have to abide by special rules.
Isn't it cheating if someone has more friends and can farm dungeons more then i can? He has an advantage on me!
Isn't it cheating if someone is plain out better then me and can kill harder mobs for faster xp? He has an advantage on me!
There are dozens of reasons why people get an advantage. If you are a good player no multiboxer in his right mind would NOT invite you to a group and replace one of his toons. If someone can box 6 toons better then you can play a single toon, it is not his fault.
Everyone can multibox since it will be allowed. Everyone has exactly the same chance. Just because some people choose to not use it, does not make it an exploit. Devs make the rules, not players. And don't get into the story of "morale". Morale is differend all over the world. Just compare USA / EU. One blocks everything that is remotly related to sex, but allows everyone to shoot at will... the other does the exact opposite. Both think "their" morale is supperior.
You can not argue with "morale" in a game that is ultimately played worldwide. So the only rules that matter are the rules that the devs make. It is their game, not yours. You are only choosing to play it, or not.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Also there are QUITE a few countries that do not commonly use credit cards at all and most people don't even have one. So either way: That would not work, like at all.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
There are ways to work with that, even if it just flags your account to be monitored for such behavior as that would go a long ways to narrowing down possible offenders.
As for the CC issue, the idea of having to have a CC for a sub is not something new, lots of companies did it for years, so this wouldn't be an issue.
Point is, it can be greatly limited if a company desires it, though most companies really don't care. Though we can see where that attitude got us with games today. /shrug
It isn't about advantage. Anyone making that argument is starting with a false premise. It is about the action of such having a negative result on the game. This is important because many aspects of the games features are designed to require people to play the game within those intended realms. Circumventing those intended play mechanics can have serious consequences on the intent of the game. That is, if you build a game that is centered around group dynamics, social reliance, group based content and play in order to facilitate such interaction and then allow people through technical circumvention to disregard it, then it kind of defeats your initial sales pitch.
If you don't care about that, then you are missing the point of this game.
I do not see it. Here is your negative result...if we say no to boxing....boxers may very well not play at all which will hurt the community because boxers also group and the developers because ya know money pays the bills.
As much as they say they only want so many subs, allot of those subs could come from boxers....also something i have noticed especially in EQ...boxers rarely only box...allot of boxers do it from boredom or for time reasons. So we want to cut off boxers because they somehow mess up our grouping????how exactly???
Did you ever consider some boxers might well say screw it they are not playing the game if they have to group which means less income for the company and less part time groupers...this would be bad in my opinion. I would rather have part time group mates than an empty server.
The boxers do not affect players nearly as much as being said here on these forums...the biggest bs i hear is "oh they can sit on a camp all day and farm loot" or "omfg they are killing all the mobs" well no shit skippy so can me and my friends and we have indeed done that. Boxers are fun to watch, but rarely are they as skilled as a group that always plays together, especially when shit hits the fan and some adds pop up...then the skill difference is drastically different.
Multi-boxing is not anywhere near the top of the possible issues this game will face.
1. Is it hard enough? God i hope so. Make me question every freaking mob i attack...will i die??? there is little to no fear in games nowadays....
2. Is the level duration really going to feel like it means something to actually level. I would love original EQ level times...did not like hell levels but hell i would rather do those than the shit nowadays.
3. Will the crafting be rewarding or fluff? Make crafting hard but the items truly worthwhile. I hate crafting an item after gathering all the materials only to walk into a dungeon and here have this one it is far superior....make crafting matter.
There are tons of other things that will make this game fail miserably, boxing is not in my opinion in the top 20 worries i have and i would rather have boxer subs than limited subs.
Ok rant over
Have a great day!
K
Or said in another way, if the game does not offer sufficient interesting possibilities for playing one character only, then the problem lies with the game and preventing multiboxing will only make less customers.
Also, back before MQ took over all of Eq, multiboxing was not very harmful and for the most part consisting of one secondary account with a rezzer, cr, porter, and playing two accounts in a group was only viable for very specific situations because you would quickly become much less efficient and slow your group down. Those players who wanted to solo never got far with their two-box of a monk/shammy or similar, and certainly never locked down full group content. Nowadays where Eq is a pushover, is a completely different situation.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Interesting, so your objection to this is to say the game will lose those who don't want to be a social part of the game and are looking for a way to bypass the games design so they can solo with multiple characters?
Hmm... Not seeing the problem here.
Also, I never said there weren't other issues to look at, but if you think that boxing can't create problems in a competitive social reliant game, then you aren't being honest.
As for the other issues:
1. Hard is the plan, remember Brads Vision of risk/reward is the foundation of this games focus. You will have to earn your way.
2. I am with you, and I think VR understands this as well, I think levels are going to take quite a while to go through. Remember, the journey is what made EQ great, not the end game. VR understands this.
3. Crafting is a tricky one. They have to be very careful with this and they know it. Some of the scuttlebutt is that crafting may not even directly compete with drops. That would give each focus its own uniqueness and make both valuable.
I understand your concern, but keep in mind many of these things have to be dealt with early on or they become a problem that is unmanageable later. There are far too many skilled "abusers" these days and if you don't establish a solid mechanic of play and consider the contingencies to a given situation, you could end up with with a heck of a lot of problems.
I am not harping on boxing, as I said earlier in the thread boxing has helped games with dwindling populations, but... it can also harm new games with healthy populations. As I said, with this day and age, the technology is easily able to give a single player expert control over numerous accounts at a time with little skill or cost.
So should they put all their time to this? No, but they had better have a game plan to consider it or when/if it becomes a problem, it will ruin the game.
As I have explained, it doesn't matter how hard, complex, etc.. they make the game, with tech these days, boxing is not a problem, the tech can handle extremely complex boxing, so there WILL be boxing regardless. So if your argument is that people may not do it because the game is too hard, that is false, laymen will be able to do it (seriously, look around for all the tech out there, an idiot can box without effort in any game these days).
Now as for it being worth it? Always... in a game even remotely like EQ that is group dependent/contested/very rare loot, boxing will be a benefit.
So, it will happen, it will be worth it. This is a fact and with the types of players these days who see any means of gaining such outside game advantage as "part of the game", it will be done often to the detriment to game play.
They will need to deal with it, but... I think it would be a good solution that people be given a choice. What better way to achieve such than with special rule-set servers? This way, boxers can box on open rule set servers and not on closed ones. Seems fair right?
So back to what I *actually* said in my post.. before the "cheating" software took over and before Eq became eaz-mode. Other than that I will just have to disagree that "any idiot" can box any game these days.. not if you are going to play these games at their full complexity. I would like to see you box ... Neverwinter .. GW2 .. WoW without cheating automated software.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0