As I have explained, it doesn't matter how hard, complex, etc.. they make the game, with tech these days, boxing is not a problem, the tech can handle extremely complex boxing, so there WILL be boxing regardless. So if your argument is that people may not do it because the game is too hard, that is false, laymen will be able to do it (seriously, look around for all the tech out there, an idiot can box without effort in any game these days).
All "the tech out there" as you call it, is more cheating than simply boxing. Take for example MQ vs tabbing between sessions - With MQ you can autoheal, autoattack, autobuff, autofollow and all kind of stuff that would be nearly impossible and very inefficient with tabbing.
So back to what I *actually* said in my post.. before the "cheating" software took over and before Eq became eaz-mode. Other than that I will just have to disagree that "any idiot" can box any game these days.. not if you are going to play these games at their full complexity. I would like to see you box ... Neverwinter .. GW2 .. WoW without cheating automated software.
Thing is, how are you going to police the cheaters from the such? I don't need to alt tab you do realize that? I can stay on a single instance and pass my input commands to other virtual PC instances over the network as if I were hosting multiple separate machines.
Do you think you are going to stop people from boxing that way? You do realize that it was technology and the newness of the concept that kept people in the early days of EQ from extensive boxing? Even then, the Legends server had a guild of 18 that ran raids all controlled by a single guy on 18 actual machines and keyboards. These days, that isn't needed.
As for your challenge? /sigh Understand the field before you make such claims.
First off, mouse and keyboard software can easily allow macros and scripting any laymen idiot could use. In fact, they allow actual real time macro inputs. Next, there is software that just sends your inputs to the network over a multicast address. Now, install as many virtual PCs (ie VMware, Oracle, etc...) as you like for as many characters as you want to run and you have it all right there.
You see, with a simple gaming keyboard that any idiot can buy and use, and freeware software that broadcasts your inputs as well as free Virtual PC software and I can have a full raid, automated and working better regardless of what idiot face rolling spam fest mainstream game you want to think I can't control with them.
Yes, it helps circumvent group content, but I'm still grouping regularly but its nice to have option.
You don't want the to stop multi-boxing because you are afraid you might actually have to play the game, group with others and with social skills like you display above, that would mean a lot of time "LFG" and whining in chat.
/shrug
Here i helped you understand what he was saying better.
He does not seem to be afraid to play the game as he already groups and boxes as well.
reading ftw.
Of course he does, he is an excellent driver as well!
I know his type. They are are full of it. He bots because he gains advantage, he also probably RMTs a lot as well and is a big supporter of such.
He is afraid his gimmicks won't be able to be used. Seen his type long before he was born.
I bot because I enjoy playing the game that way, not to gain any "advantage", in fact, I'm not even competing against anyone, except myself of course.
I don't have any real objections to RMT, but feel it's too expensive for the average player, mostly for the rich whales.
I don't use any gimmicks, I don't even remap my keyboard and I'm pretty sure I've been gaming longer than you are old. (1st Computer game was Star Trek on an IBM mainframe in 1977)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Multiboxers don't hurt the community. At the worst possible they are indifferend (if they really play a full group and don't invite others). Usually they don't and they do invite other people. 90% of multiboxing is a healer, or buffer only to minimize downtime at the cost of speed (yes you usually level slower, but you can fight without downtime).
A multiboxer that plays alone does not hurt anyone. A multiboxer that invites others is usually one of the better players to have in a group. And usually also one of the nicest.
But that's just my experience with EQ like games. I am sure there are other games that have gameplay mechanics that just screw over the community if someone boxes. Also... i still think people mix up boxing and botting way to much. Or just don't know the difference.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community. Community is a collection of people who are working together to gain an advantage in the game. While it may not be true of all people, the whole point of boxing is to gain advantage without needing others. In fact, you are literally paying more to gain an advantage in game that by definition, removes at least some need for interaction or "the community" in general.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community. Community is a collection of people who are working together to gain an advantage in the game. While it may not be true of all people, the whole point of boxing is to gain advantage without needing others. In fact, you are literally paying more to gain an advantage in game that by definition, removes at least some need for interaction or "the community" in general.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
It used to be legal to multibox in Eve online, but controversial, and a lot of players didn't like it, but now they have cracked down on multiboxing, and the software used for it, probably why the sub numbers have dropped in the last 6 months, obviously CCP felt it was worth it to do so, and i can't help but feel that the reason they did this, was more to do with the long term health of the game, particularly as it relates to community, Eve is a very social game after all, and i don't think multiboxing is at all conducive to social gameplay.
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
Easy: If they play for themselves, they don't affect the community. Noone notices them apart from seeing them run by. What bad does it do to the community ? If they would not play at all, nothing would change for the community either. If at all the community wins due to more money for the devs => better game.
Obviously this is not true IF and only IF the game is small enough that a few boxers can monopolize content. Keep in mind tho, not every boxer is actually doing a full group. Far far far from truth. Also there are not a lot of multiboxers anyways. Never seen more then a few people per server in any game i have played. Far from a real concern.
To the second point: Hell yeah it is fun, but it is also very stressful depending on the game. For doing progress i prefer solo play usually. Unless the game is easy enough to really do a group without having to do a sanity break every 30 min. This should not be an issue for Pantheon tho, if and again... only IF we get what the devs claim we will get.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
Easy: If they play for themselves, they don't affect the community. Noone notices them apart from seeing them run by. What bad does it do to the community ? If they would not play at all, nothing would change for the community either. If at all the community wins due to more money for the devs => better game.
Obviously this is not true IF and only IF the game is small enough that a few boxers can monopolize content. Keep in mind tho, not every boxer is actually doing a full group. Far far far from truth. Also there are not a lot of multiboxers anyways. Never seen more then a few people per server in any game i have played. Far from a real concern.
To the second point: Hell yeah it is fun, but it is also very stressful depending on the game. For doing progress i prefer solo play usually. Unless the game is easy enough to really do a group without having to do a sanity break every 30 min. This should not be an issue for Pantheon tho, if and again... only IF we get what the devs claim we will get.
I just don't think we should forget why earlier MMOs felt so much different. The ignorant say it was merely our first game so we romanticize about it, but in reality the entire experience was just different because everyone needed each other. It was so necessary, people were always glad to meet and play together. Since boxing and solo content have become all the rage, that bond and appreciation for other players has greatly diminished.
So yes, the community or playerbase at large is harmed by each player that occupies the world and its content while circumventing the multiplayer aspect of the game. The result is really not that different from games focusing on solo content. Either way, the game becomes less multiplayer.
As I have explained, it doesn't matter how hard, complex, etc.. they make the game, with tech these days, boxing is not a problem, the tech can handle extremely complex boxing, so there WILL be boxing regardless. So if your argument is that people may not do it because the game is too hard, that is false, laymen will be able to do it (seriously, look around for all the tech out there, an idiot can box without effort in any game these days).
All "the tech out there" as you call it, is more cheating than simply boxing. Take for example MQ vs tabbing between sessions - With MQ you can autoheal, autoattack, autobuff, autofollow and all kind of stuff that would be nearly impossible and very inefficient with tabbing.
So back to what I *actually* said in my post.. before the "cheating" software took over and before Eq became eaz-mode. Other than that I will just have to disagree that "any idiot" can box any game these days.. not if you are going to play these games at their full complexity. I would like to see you box ... Neverwinter .. GW2 .. WoW without cheating automated software.
Thing is, how are you going to police the cheaters from the such? I don't need to alt tab you do realize that? I can stay on a single instance and pass my input commands to other virtual PC instances over the network as if I were hosting multiple separate machines.
Do you think you are going to stop people from boxing that way? You do realize that it was technology and the newness of the concept that kept people in the early days of EQ from extensive boxing? Even then, the Legends server had a guild of 18 that ran raids all controlled by a single guy on 18 actual machines and keyboards. These days, that isn't needed.
As for your challenge? /sigh Understand the field before you make such claims.
First off, mouse and keyboard software can easily allow macros and scripting any laymen idiot could use. In fact, they allow actual real time macro inputs. Next, there is software that just sends your inputs to the network over a multicast address. Now, install as many virtual PCs (ie VMware, Oracle, etc...) as you like for as many characters as you want to run and you have it all right there.
You see, with a simple gaming keyboard that any idiot can buy and use, and freeware software that broadcasts your inputs as well as free Virtual PC software and I can have a full raid, automated and working better regardless of what idiot face rolling spam fest mainstream game you want to think I can't control with them.
Educate yourself, you are behind the times.
Sometimes people actually know more than you think they do.
I played 99-04, 09-10, progression servers x2; I have played half the classes as single characters to their full potential, boxed with alt-tab, with wineq, isboxer, mq on peq, and clocked over 1k days /played in Eq alone.. played and stayed up to date with most major mmorpgs for 15+ years, so please.. don't tell me i do not know what I am talking about - I know exactly what you can do with boxing in Eq or other games.
So back to my point which you choose to ignore: The game needs to provide sufficient game mechanics such that boxing is less efficient. Maybe you think that is not possible to do, I think it is.
Sometimes people actually know more than you think they do.
I played 99-04, 09-10, progression servers x2; I have played half the classes as single characters to their full potential, boxed with alt-tab, with wineq, isboxer, mq on peq, and clocked over 1k days /played in Eq alone.. played and stayed up to date with most major mmorpgs for 15+ years, so please.. don't tell me i do not know what I am talking about - I know exactly what you can do with boxing in Eq or other games.
So back to my point which you choose to ignore: The game needs to provide sufficient game mechanics such that boxing is less efficient. Maybe you think that is not possible to do, I think it is.
Your argument says otherwise.
None of that dismisses my point that people can easily handle game mechanics regardless of how difficult they try to make it. Your point about them making it less efficient is irrelevant because as I said, it can be made efficient with proper configuration and setup. If what you claim is true, then you know I am right.
The only way you are going to make it less efficient is to specifically put in anti-boxing code that specifically tries to stop it (which means they have to take a stance against it and actively work to that goal). You can not make the game where boxing is inefficient these days (the game play makes it so). You can put restrictions on what you think is allowed (ie you can't automate this, you can't macro that), but the fact is you can't stop someone from doing it. Boxing will be done, it will be more efficient, it will be a problem.
I just don't think we should forget why earlier MMOs felt so much different. The ignorant say it was merely our first game so we romanticize about it, but in reality the entire experience was just different because everyone needed each other. It was so necessary, people were always glad to meet and play together. Since boxing and solo content have become all the rage, that bond and appreciation for other players has greatly diminished.
So yes, the community or playerbase at large is harmed by each player that occupies the world and its content while circumventing the multiplayer aspect of the game. The result is really not that different from games focusing on solo content. Either way, the game becomes less multiplayer.
That is the point. It isn't that I think that boxing is some evil thing. As I have said, in a failing game that is group reliant, it can be a useful tool due to the fact there are not many people to group with in the lower levels.
Thing is, these guys go on about how it isn't a big deal, but I watched it slowly become a problem with EQ. One of my cleric friends changed to another class because boxing became so prevalent that many people had a pocket healer and refused them to the group because they didn't need another healer. It made certain classes less dependent and for a game where classes are supposed to be dependent on each other, this becomes a problem.
I have done boxing myself in some games and it allowed me to go camp mobs I normally couldn't do by myself. I saw others who also perm camped places. Back in the early days of EQ, if you didn't have the people and the right classes to make due, you had to choose other options. Boxing takes away that need to adapt and when you have contested dungeons and boxing is an easy option to every single player you start to see a problem.
Some here dismiss that it can be a problem and they use loose subjective reassurances about how people will still allow people to join their bot groups (how kind of them /boggle) so camps won't be take away, how they don't hurt anyone, etc... but all I see is the same arguments that gold buyers make when they justify that their actions of such have no effect on the rest of the game. The fact is, they don't care if it does, they just care about what they want.
At the end of the day, what is the point of game play in group system if people can circumvent it?
As ive said before, ive two boxed in nearly every mmo ive played without any third party programs. Its easy to play in windows mode with two different characters. I usually play a healer and a tank and just park the healer or have him on follow.
Now if i want to buy two accounts then that's my concern, plus this game is a PVE mmo not a PVP game. Ive been in groups before and had my healer on follow, more than times i can count ive saved the group or tank.
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
Easy: If they play for themselves, they don't affect the community. Noone notices them apart from seeing them run by. What bad does it do to the community ? If they would not play at all, nothing would change for the community either. If at all the community wins due to more money for the devs => better game.
Obviously this is not true IF and only IF the game is small enough that a few boxers can monopolize content. Keep in mind tho, not every boxer is actually doing a full group. Far far far from truth. Also there are not a lot of multiboxers anyways. Never seen more then a few people per server in any game i have played. Far from a real concern.
To the second point: Hell yeah it is fun, but it is also very stressful depending on the game. For doing progress i prefer solo play usually. Unless the game is easy enough to really do a group without having to do a sanity break every 30 min. This should not be an issue for Pantheon tho, if and again... only IF we get what the devs claim we will get.
Pantheon will be a contested content game. Those boxers take up camp spots, take up class roles in a group that would otherwise be for a real player which diminishes the benefits of choosing a needed class. Why play a healer when you can run around with a pocket healer? What benefit is there of being a druid/wizard that provides travel if everyone is running around with a pocket port class?
What about the accessibility of such that allows gold sellers to more easily farm money, items, etc... ? That is right, you don't think gold selling harms the game either.
You obviously aren't thinking past your own desire for play. None of your reasons are valid ones that objectively evaluate the issues. It is all excuses around your fun and your hollow assurances that it won't have any effect on the game.
Never mind the fact that those promoting boxing aren't looking for a hard game like EQ again with group focus, strong social reliance. They are looking for yet another game where they can circumvent play with technical gimmicks so they can gain advantage over intended play.
If you want a mainstream game where that sort of behavior is the point and the focus of play, there are numerous games out there. Enjoy.
Not sure how anyone can argue that allowing boxing doesn't have a negative affect on community. Community is a collection of people who are working together to gain an advantage in the game. While it may not be true of all people, the whole point of boxing is to gain advantage without needing others. In fact, you are literally paying more to gain an advantage in game that by definition, removes at least some need for interaction or "the community" in general.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
It used to be legal to multibox in Eve online, but controversial, and a lot of players didn't like it, but now they have cracked down on multiboxing, and the software used for it, probably why the sub numbers have dropped in the last 6 months, obviously CCP felt it was worth it to do so, and i can't help but feel that the reason they did this, was more to do with the long term health of the game, particularly as it relates to community, Eve is a very social game after all, and i don't think multiboxing is at all conducive to social gameplay.
Yep, it is a community killer. I have personally seen the effects of boxing on games. You can't take a group dependent game and then allow people to circumvent it by essentially playing "solo" via technical tools. It defeats the entire point of a group reliant game.
Actually some of the boxers might want to check out Dragons Dogma Online. It will allow a single player to control a whole party. And seeing as the game is designed with that in mind, no harm.
I had a friend who multi-boxed in EQ. Obviously one friend is just one data point in a big world. But his secondary character was a healer. When a real healer was available, he put his alt away and the player joined the group. There was no harm to the community. He only multi-boxed when no healer could be found.
I have never multi-boxed. Just the thought of trying to do that intimidates me. I have a hard enough time playing one character.
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Actually some of the boxers might want to check out Dragons Dogma Online. It will allow a single player to control a whole party. And seeing as the game is designed with that in mind, no harm.
Bingo! If that form of play is what people enjoy so much, why not play a game designed for it?
If you told me that I could go play a game that was very close to EQ and had all of the features that was like EQ, but put into a modern framework of today, maybe with a few changes here and there to improve upon the same general aspects of its intent, why... I would be there in an instant, which is why I am following this game.
I had a friend who multi-boxed in EQ. Obviously one friend is just one data point in a big world. But his secondary character was a healer. When a real healer was available, he put his alt away and the player joined the group. There was no harm to the community. He only multi-boxed when no healer could be found.
I have never multi-boxed. Just the thought of trying to do that intimidates me. I have a hard enough time playing one character.
Yes, but that harm is contingent on that player deciding to be polite by:
1. Inviting people to his group to do the content he his already doing solo (ie with his boxing characters). 2. Choosing to remove the boxing character from the game in order to facilitate a class he already has.
The problem is, all of that is contingent on the person in power (ie the person boxing) being so kind.
My experience with people is that people tend to not always be such and given the opportunity, they do what is best for them, not those around them.
The point of the group focused game is that people are reliant on others. That they must learn to play nice, be social, etc... or they won't be able to survive in the game without great limitations (ie playing only a solo class or making no progress because they can't get groups). What the boxing does is empower someone to ignore that process of play and that responsibility.
Also, I have experienced both types. I have experienced the nice people who do as you mention and I have experienced the bad apples as well. I would prefer that the bad apples not be given the power to do such as then they have he power to influence the system while without boxing they are subject to it (ie must become social in play).
Pantheon will be a contested content game. Those boxers take up camp spots, take up class roles in a group that would otherwise be for a real player which diminishes the benefits of choosing a needed class. Why play a healer when you can run around with a pocket healer? What benefit is there of being a druid/wizard that provides travel if everyone is running around with a pocket port class?
I will only talk about this point because it is ridiculous in my opinion...
Lets run some scenarios....
1. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a boxer. 2. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a group.
Which is causing my group the most grief? The boxer group or the "normal" group?
For me the answer is pretty simple...they both are!!!
If it is a boxer group or a normal group either way i cannot camp my spot so what do i do? I move the f**k on and get over it and come back some other time.
Or i could sit in the same spot and wait for my "turn" which could be hours in either situation.
So which is the uglier situation to you? I know you will say boxer, i just do not see why honestly...either way i cannot get the camp until either one is done!
Here is a funny one for you....
If i was not with a group, i may not get into the "normal" group if they have no need of my class...but that is life. BUT as a single player i have a better chance of getting into a box group than a normal group as not all boxers are assholes. The boxer may very well "sit" his similar class and allow me in....not gonna happen in a normal group until the class member leaves. (using this example because it has happened several times to me)
And guess what...when my group gets the camp and the boxer comes along...he is screwed as well, just like i was.
The irony is i have had boxers ask me to join groups often and i had a blast...did i care that he was boxing toons? Nah it was something to do and i met nice people. When my friends would log on i would take off and do my thing. And he was doing his.
just my 2 cents.
Btw Sinist i agree with pretty well everything you have said except the whole boxing thing....i have noticed your comments and we are on the same page except for this lol.
Pantheon will be a contested content game. Those boxers take up camp spots, take up class roles in a group that would otherwise be for a real player which diminishes the benefits of choosing a needed class. Why play a healer when you can run around with a pocket healer? What benefit is there of being a druid/wizard that provides travel if everyone is running around with a pocket port class?
I will only talk about this point because it is ridiculous in my opinion...
Lets run some scenarios....
1. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a boxer. 2. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a group.
Which is causing my group the most grief? The boxer group or the "normal" group?
For me the answer is pretty simple...they both are!!!
If it is a boxer group or a normal group either way i cannot camp my spot so what do i do? I move the f**k on and get over it and come back some other time.
Or i could sit in the same spot and wait for my "turn" which could be hours in either situation.
So which is the uglier situation to you? I know you will say boxer, i just do not see why honestly...either way i cannot get the camp until either one is done!
Here is a funny one for you....
If i was not with a group, i may not get into the "normal" group if they have no need of my class...but that is life. BUT as a single player i have a better chance of getting into a box group than a normal group as not all boxers are assholes. The boxer may very well "sit" his similar class and allow me in....not gonna happen in a normal group until the class member leaves. (using this example because it has happened several times to me)
And guess what...when my group gets the camp and the boxer comes along...he is screwed as well, just like i was.
The irony is i have had boxers ask me to join groups often and i had a blast...did i care that he was boxing toons? Nah it was something to do and i met nice people. When my friends would log on i would take off and do my thing. And he was doing his.
just my 2 cents.
Btw Sinist i agree with pretty well everything you have said except the whole boxing thing....i have noticed your comments and we are on the same page except for this lol.
The boxer is done by a single person, the group is 6 people. Do you not see how a single person is essentially soloing the content? Now imagine everyone in the game boxes (this is to make a point), so everyone is essentially soling the game and what was once a group game is now a solo game of individuals running full parties and instead of 4 groups of 6 people in each group competing for content, it is now 24 people soling bot groups all fighting for content.
As I said before, I don't want to be subject to the will of a single individual who decides if they want to have me or not because they already have it covered. In the group with each individual, there is an agreement among the group, more than a single person to appeal to and the choice to allow or dismiss a person less of an issue because you need a given class.
The boxer doesn't need you, you exist in his group at his sole discretion, nor does the boxer require social convention to exist as they control the content themselves.
The point is that boxing destroys the social reliance game.
I have watched it happen. I have seen games before they had boxing and then watched how they became after they started boxing. It is an issue, it will be an issue.
But the boxer wouldnt even be at the camp if they didnt box. Or if they were there at least other people would have the oppertunity to join the hunt.
Exactly, without that boxing, that boxer would be sitting at the zone line LFG and that need for a specific class now becomes important. Boxing removes that social reliance game play element.
The problem is, all of that is contingent on the person in power (ie the person boxing) being so kind.
Exactly!
But that is the very essence of a game design that depends on players acting respectfully of one another, and encountering social consequences if they do not.
In EQ, there were hundreds of ways players could aggravate each other and spoil their fun if they were of a mind. Of course, if someone makes a habit of doing things like that, good luck on them being invited to any difficult encounters where friends are needed.
But if we go down the road of protectionism, where does it lead? Are you now a fan of "mainstream" protection mechanics?
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The problem is, all of that is contingent on the person in power (ie the person boxing) being so kind.
Exactly!
But that is the very essence of a game design that depends on players acting respectfully of one another, and encountering social consequences if they do not.
In EQ, there were hundreds of ways players could aggravate each other and spoil their fun if they were of a mind. Of course, if someone makes a habit of doing things like that, good luck on them being invited to any difficult encounters where friends are needed.
But if we go down the road of protectionism, where does it lead? Are you now a fan of "mainstream" protection mechanics?
Wait, so you are actually going to argue that a mechanic that allows a single person to dominate the content and people will be subject to the whim of that individual allowing people to play is a social group element?
That has to be the dumbest argument I have ever heard. It is obvious now that you are emotionally driving your points because you are upset that I have identified your mainstream likes. Now you have to spin, attack and confuse with completely stupid arguments to try and conjure up some point.
No you were so busy wanting to be insulting that I think you skipped my post entirely.
In EQ there were people who didn't want there to be camps. But there were camps. And camp stealers.
People didn't like when some other guild took down a boss, or took over a dungeon, that they wanted to take down or run. But those mechanics remained.
People didn't like kill stealers. Trainers. Ninja looters. But all those mechanics remained.
EQ was chock full of mechanics that were hugely annoying. Yet the community developed norms, and methods of justice, to address those things without need of Developer interference.
For example, once when I camped Hadden a camp stealer appeared. His intention was to gank Hadden, despite my having been there already nearly 5 hours and having declared my camp. So I had about 20 of my guildmates drop by to surround the camp stealer and discuss with him their displeasure at his intentions. Seeing that it would be hard to get the drop on 21 people, and seeing also he was about to make 21 enemies, he left. That's how players solve problems.
You, by contrast, are arguing for a "developer make the bad man stop solution." And that's fine, but it's not in the spirit of how we handled things back in the day. If that's the game you are looking for, most of those types of issues were addressed in EQ2 and WoW.
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Comments
Thing is, how are you going to police the cheaters from the such? I don't need to alt tab you do realize that? I can stay on a single instance and pass my input commands to other virtual PC instances over the network as if I were hosting multiple separate machines.
Do you think you are going to stop people from boxing that way? You do realize that it was technology and the newness of the concept that kept people in the early days of EQ from extensive boxing? Even then, the Legends server had a guild of 18 that ran raids all controlled by a single guy on 18 actual machines and keyboards. These days, that isn't needed.
As for your challenge? /sigh Understand the field before you make such claims.
First off, mouse and keyboard software can easily allow macros and scripting any laymen idiot could use. In fact, they allow actual real time macro inputs. Next, there is software that just sends your inputs to the network over a multicast address. Now, install as many virtual PCs (ie VMware, Oracle, etc...) as you like for as many characters as you want to run and you have it all right there.
You see, with a simple gaming keyboard that any idiot can buy and use, and freeware software that broadcasts your inputs as well as free Virtual PC software and I can have a full raid, automated and working better regardless of what idiot face rolling spam fest mainstream game you want to think I can't control with them.
Educate yourself, you are behind the times.
I don't have any real objections to RMT, but feel it's too expensive for the average player, mostly for the rich whales.
I don't use any gimmicks, I don't even remap my keyboard and I'm pretty sure I've been gaming longer than you are old. (1st Computer game was Star Trek on an IBM mainframe in 1977)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A multiboxer that plays alone does not hurt anyone. A multiboxer that invites others is usually one of the better players to have in a group. And usually also one of the nicest.
But that's just my experience with EQ like games. I am sure there are other games that have gameplay mechanics that just screw over the community if someone boxes. Also... i still think people mix up boxing and botting way to much. Or just don't know the difference.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Pantheon is a PvE game guys. Relax. We all win.
Lets not kid ourselves altogether just because boxing may be fun.
Obviously this is not true IF and only IF the game is small enough that a few boxers can monopolize content. Keep in mind tho, not every boxer is actually doing a full group. Far far far from truth. Also there are not a lot of multiboxers anyways. Never seen more then a few people per server in any game i have played. Far from a real concern.
To the second point: Hell yeah it is fun, but it is also very stressful depending on the game. For doing progress i prefer solo play usually. Unless the game is easy enough to really do a group without having to do a sanity break every 30 min. This should not be an issue for Pantheon tho, if and again... only IF we get what the devs claim we will get.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
So yes, the community or playerbase at large is harmed by each player that occupies the world and its content while circumventing the multiplayer aspect of the game. The result is really not that different from games focusing on solo content. Either way, the game becomes less multiplayer.
I played 99-04, 09-10, progression servers x2; I have played half the classes as single characters to their full potential, boxed with alt-tab, with wineq, isboxer, mq on peq, and clocked over 1k days /played in Eq alone.. played and stayed up to date with most major mmorpgs for 15+ years, so please.. don't tell me i do not know what I am talking about - I know exactly what you can do with boxing in Eq or other games.
So back to my point which you choose to ignore: The game needs to provide sufficient game mechanics such that boxing is less efficient. Maybe you think that is not possible to do, I think it is.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
None of that dismisses my point that people can easily handle game mechanics regardless of how difficult they try to make it. Your point about them making it less efficient is irrelevant because as I said, it can be made efficient with proper configuration and setup. If what you claim is true, then you know I am right.
The only way you are going to make it less efficient is to specifically put in anti-boxing code that specifically tries to stop it (which means they have to take a stance against it and actively work to that goal). You can not make the game where boxing is inefficient these days (the game play makes it so). You can put restrictions on what you think is allowed (ie you can't automate this, you can't macro that), but the fact is you can't stop someone from doing it. Boxing will be done, it will be more efficient, it will be a problem.
Thing is, these guys go on about how it isn't a big deal, but I watched it slowly become a problem with EQ. One of my cleric friends changed to another class because boxing became so prevalent that many people had a pocket healer and refused them to the group because they didn't need another healer. It made certain classes less dependent and for a game where classes are supposed to be dependent on each other, this becomes a problem.
I have done boxing myself in some games and it allowed me to go camp mobs I normally couldn't do by myself. I saw others who also perm camped places. Back in the early days of EQ, if you didn't have the people and the right classes to make due, you had to choose other options. Boxing takes away that need to adapt and when you have contested dungeons and boxing is an easy option to every single player you start to see a problem.
Some here dismiss that it can be a problem and they use loose subjective reassurances about how people will still allow people to join their bot groups (how kind of them /boggle) so camps won't be take away, how they don't hurt anyone, etc... but all I see is the same arguments that gold buyers make when they justify that their actions of such have no effect on the rest of the game. The fact is, they don't care if it does, they just care about what they want.
At the end of the day, what is the point of game play in group system if people can circumvent it?
Now if i want to buy two accounts then that's my concern, plus this game is a PVE mmo not a PVP game. Ive been in groups before and had my healer on follow, more than times i can count ive saved the group or tank.
I'll be two boxing in this game.
What about the accessibility of such that allows gold sellers to more easily farm money, items, etc... ? That is right, you don't think gold selling harms the game either.
You obviously aren't thinking past your own desire for play. None of your reasons are valid ones that objectively evaluate the issues. It is all excuses around your fun and your hollow assurances that it won't have any effect on the game.
Never mind the fact that those promoting boxing aren't looking for a hard game like EQ again with group focus, strong social reliance. They are looking for yet another game where they can circumvent play with technical gimmicks so they can gain advantage over intended play.
If you want a mainstream game where that sort of behavior is the point and the focus of play, there are numerous games out there. Enjoy.
I have never multi-boxed. Just the thought of trying to do that intimidates me. I have a hard enough time playing one character.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you told me that I could go play a game that was very close to EQ and had all of the features that was like EQ, but put into a modern framework of today, maybe with a few changes here and there to improve upon the same general aspects of its intent, why... I would be there in an instant, which is why I am following this game.
1. Inviting people to his group to do the content he his already doing solo (ie with his boxing characters).
2. Choosing to remove the boxing character from the game in order to facilitate a class he already has.
The problem is, all of that is contingent on the person in power (ie the person boxing) being so kind.
My experience with people is that people tend to not always be such and given the opportunity, they do what is best for them, not those around them.
The point of the group focused game is that people are reliant on others. That they must learn to play nice, be social, etc... or they won't be able to survive in the game without great limitations (ie playing only a solo class or making no progress because they can't get groups). What the boxing does is empower someone to ignore that process of play and that responsibility.
Also, I have experienced both types. I have experienced the nice people who do as you mention and I have experienced the bad apples as well. I would prefer that the bad apples not be given the power to do such as then they have he power to influence the system while without boxing they are subject to it (ie must become social in play).
I will only talk about this point because it is ridiculous in my opinion...
Lets run some scenarios....
1. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a boxer.
2. My friends and i want to get a couple of fbss's in good old EQ...the camp is held by a group.
Which is causing my group the most grief? The boxer group or the "normal" group?
For me the answer is pretty simple...they both are!!!
If it is a boxer group or a normal group either way i cannot camp my spot so what do i do? I move the f**k on and get over it and come back some other time.
Or i could sit in the same spot and wait for my "turn" which could be hours in either situation.
So which is the uglier situation to you? I know you will say boxer, i just do not see why honestly...either way i cannot get the camp until either one is done!
Here is a funny one for you....
If i was not with a group, i may not get into the "normal" group if they have no need of my class...but that is life. BUT as a single player i have a better chance of getting into a box group than a normal group as not all boxers are assholes. The boxer may very well "sit" his similar class and allow me in....not gonna happen in a normal group until the class member leaves. (using this example because it has happened several times to me)
And guess what...when my group gets the camp and the boxer comes along...he is screwed as well, just like i was.
The irony is i have had boxers ask me to join groups often and i had a blast...did i care that he was boxing toons? Nah it was something to do and i met nice people. When my friends would log on i would take off and do my thing. And he was doing his.
just my 2 cents.
Btw Sinist i agree with pretty well everything you have said except the whole boxing thing....i have noticed your comments and we are on the same page except for this lol.
The boxer is done by a single person, the group is 6 people. Do you not see how a single person is essentially soloing the content? Now imagine everyone in the game boxes (this is to make a point), so everyone is essentially soling the game and what was once a group game is now a solo game of individuals running full parties and instead of 4 groups of 6 people in each group competing for content, it is now 24 people soling bot groups all fighting for content.
As I said before, I don't want to be subject to the will of a single individual who decides if they want to have me or not because they already have it covered. In the group with each individual, there is an agreement among the group, more than a single person to appeal to and the choice to allow or dismiss a person less of an issue because you need a given class.
The boxer doesn't need you, you exist in his group at his sole discretion, nor does the boxer require social convention to exist as they control the content themselves.
The point is that boxing destroys the social reliance game.
I have watched it happen. I have seen games before they had boxing and then watched how they became after they started boxing. It is an issue, it will be an issue.
But that is the very essence of a game design that depends on players acting respectfully of one another, and encountering social consequences if they do not.
In EQ, there were hundreds of ways players could aggravate each other and spoil their fun if they were of a mind. Of course, if someone makes a habit of doing things like that, good luck on them being invited to any difficult encounters where friends are needed.
But if we go down the road of protectionism, where does it lead? Are you now a fan of "mainstream" protection mechanics?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
That has to be the dumbest argument I have ever heard. It is obvious now that you are emotionally driving your points because you are upset that I have identified your mainstream likes. Now you have to spin, attack and confuse with completely stupid arguments to try and conjure up some point.
Yeah, good luck with that. /pats you on the head
In EQ there were people who didn't want there to be camps. But there were camps. And camp stealers.
People didn't like when some other guild took down a boss, or took over a dungeon, that they wanted to take down or run. But those mechanics remained.
People didn't like kill stealers. Trainers. Ninja looters. But all those mechanics remained.
EQ was chock full of mechanics that were hugely annoying. Yet the community developed norms, and methods of justice, to address those things without need of Developer interference.
For example, once when I camped Hadden a camp stealer appeared. His intention was to gank Hadden, despite my having been there already nearly 5 hours and having declared my camp. So I had about 20 of my guildmates drop by to surround the camp stealer and discuss with him their displeasure at his intentions. Seeing that it would be hard to get the drop on 21 people, and seeing also he was about to make 21 enemies, he left. That's how players solve problems.
You, by contrast, are arguing for a "developer make the bad man stop solution." And that's fine, but it's not in the spirit of how we handled things back in the day. If that's the game you are looking for, most of those types of issues were addressed in EQ2 and WoW.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests