Back to the wall xp groups

Amathe

When I played EQ, on many nights I would join a small xp group in some safe spot in a zone and just pull mobs again and again. In those days zones presented many dangers, and you were less likely just to run through one. 

As another example, Velketor's Labyrinth. It was filled with camp spots where groups would pull the nearby mobs for xp (and if you stayed long enough decent loot). 

While that may sound dull and repetitious, it was actually a very social experience. We spent our time laughing and talking as we fought. 

I hope that Pantheon can make a space for that type of play. I sorely miss it. 

Slapshot1188

Leveling is too fast nowadays. By the time you get settled into a spot you have leveled... 20 minutes later again...

Amathe

True. I also miss leveling taking time, to where you have an actual 30s experience and a 40s experience and so on, that isn't just one evening. 

Sinist

Slapshot1188 said:

Leveling is too fast nowadays. By the time you get settled into a spot you have leveled... 20 minutes later again...

That will likely change with Pantheon. For myself, if a game doesn't have extremely long leveling curves, then it won't be a game I will play. I have had enough of the ADD crowd MMOs.

Krimzin

Its so funny, 16 years ago and I still remember my first zone run from Qeynos to Freeport. I was actually terrified. Some level 15 ranger said he knew the way so my wife and I, both level 6 figured what the hell. I remember dodging Cyclops and Griffons, then the jack ass took us through Beholders Gorge..needless to say that is where the party ended. To this day, its still one of my fondness memories of any game. It was my first MMO gaming experience. I follow Pantheon because Im hoping to find a game that can bring content that can bring emotion back to the genre.

Amathe

Good story Krimzin. I completely relate.

It's also funny what people remember when looking back on a game they once played.

For example, I barely recall the day I finished the Swiftwind leg of the Ranger epic. But I remember in detail a day I spent with a good friend in Fungus Grove working on a quest together. And don't even get me started on Crushbone Castle. A thousand memories there lol. 

So often these days people rush through the parts of the game that someday they will remember the fondest. 

Krimzin

That is what today's MMO doesn't offer.  The OP was talking about Grind Groups, I had a several that I always tried to get into. It was always the same people who were pushing as hard as I was and you got to know the good players. With today's MMO and the LFR style play, you never know anyone. The only people you might remember are the assholes. If you do your job, you are anonymous. If you got a bad reputation in Everquest, you might as well just hang it up. You weren't going to get into any groups, guilds or raids. Players mattered. Reputation mattered.  WTB a game where those things matter. Hope Pantheon is it.

Wizardry

Slapshot1188 said:

Leveling is too fast nowadays. By the time you get settled into a spot you have leveled... 20 minutes later again...

This is true but no reason every developer has to keep copying terrible game designs.
 For myself it is not only about grouping and plausible realism in both mechanics and ideals,it is about making levels meaningful.

If using levels,each should be exactly the same,just as we have birthdays,it is the same  every year.I would like to see very long tenures between levels like make levels more like aging,maybe 1 level every 3 weeks or so.Put some meaning into each level.Utilize sub classes that way it gives your character a lot more to advance/progress with.

Stealing ideas from a game i love,we could be leveling skills instead of a level number.Use the level number instead as a base like in aging,you would need to be a certain age to realistically learn certain skills,so it would work hand in hand.

You could have 30+ skills and faction favor and crafting and guild ideas to give players plenty to do within each year/level.Quests to learn new skills,new weapon abilities,new defense maneuvers then perform player>player combos to raise those skills etc etc.

It is called DEPTH,put some in your game and you won't need to be a meaningless leveling game racing to end game raid looting.

Raidan_EQ

Amathe said:

When I played EQ, on many nights I would join a small xp group in some safe spot in a zone and just pull mobs again and again. In those days zones presented many dangers, and you were less likely just to run through one. 

As another example, Velketor's Labyrinth. It was filled with camp spots where groups would pull the nearby mobs for xp (and if you stayed long enough decent loot). 

While that may sound dull and repetitious, it was actually a very social experience. We spent our time laughing and talking as we fought. 

I hope that Pantheon can make a space for that type of play. I sorely miss it. 

I loved those exp groups as well.  And, I asked on the official forums back in January a question for the Developer Roundtables (Camp-style Dungeons vs. Crawls) and they had responded that there would be a combination of both.  Again, it was awhile ago, and I haven't seen/heard any updates since.

Sovrath

Wizardry said:

You could have 30+ skills and faction favor and crafting and guild ideas to give players plenty to do within each year/level.Quests to learn new skills,new weapon abilities,new defense maneuvers then perform player>player combos to raise those skills etc etc.

It is called DEPTH,put some in your game and you won't need to be a meaningless leveling game racing to end game raid looting.

that's not depth, it's breadth.

Depth would be having those skills lead to other things, maybe situationally, maybe changing depending how they are used in combination and against "what". It's about "going somewhere", exploring a chain of possibilities.

Just havign 30 + skills means nothing except you have a lot of skills.

though you did mention combos so that can be the start of some sort of depth. 

TheJoda

Ahhh the good old days, of pulling for a xp group and dropping trains on the neighbors.

ste2000

Sinist said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Leveling is too fast nowadays. By the time you get settled into a spot you have leveled... 20 minutes later again...

That will likely change with Pantheon. For myself, if a game doesn't have extremely long leveling curves, then it won't be a game I will play. I have had enough of the ADD crowd MMOs.

I really hope so.
I am tired as well of reaching level cap after a month, it is not what MMORPGs should be about.

In my view MMORPGs are about the journey, so the longer the journey is, the better.

Kefo

DMKano said:

If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase. 

Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority. 

I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide 

Pantheon isn't aiming for a large crowd though but the older crowd that likes this type of pace. They aren't planning to get millions of players so they aren't expecting to make WoW level revenue. As long as they plan the business realistically then they won't commit business suicide.

ste2000

DMKano said:

If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase. 

Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority. 

I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide 

Totally disagree.
This is the classic "copy & paste" mainstream mentality which thinks that majority of players wants to beat games within 2 months.
I think this is a rather superficial analisys and very naive for the Industry to think so, this is the sort of mentality that is killing MMORPGs.

After WoW came out, we had 1000 MMORPGs that came out after it.
95% of them with a fast leveling curve.
I struggle to think of any of those games that kept their original player base for more than a couple of months, and didn't have to go F2P in the process in order to survive.

I don't know why this is not obvious yet, but the End Game is the death of a MMORPG.
People keep playing a MMORPG in a quest to reach the End Game, but once they reached it.....ooops their interest plummets.
That happens systematically throughout all those MMOs, look around you, an experienced MMO player like yourself should have noticed this trend by now.

What the MMOs have to do is to make leveling much slower and the leveling content moreinteresting and more challenging, so people are not stressed to get to level caps as fast as they can.
No one tried that yet, I hope Pantheon do not make the same mistake everyone else is doing, thinking that players hate leveling and are only interested in the End Game.
I believe the opposite is true.

Sinist

DMKano said:

If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase. 

Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority. 

I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide 

VR only needs a small amount of subs to succeed. Out of millions of potential customers, a small percent is a huge success for a team of this size and modest development budget.

Do the math, sit down and run the numbers. A small game can easily be very successful if they run it like a small company. Big companies need big returns, being profitable isn't enough, they need to reach a significant level of profit to justify the venture.

Pantheon doesn't need to be the next WoW, or the next big hit. It just needs a small steady and healthy interest in the game to which will allow them to pay the bills and have enough to continue development. It is in VRs best interest to do what they do well, than do what others do in order to broaden their audience. Jack of all trades, is a master of none.

Besides, I agree with Brad in that if he can obtain his Vision (TM) to the full extent of its realization, even some mainstreamers will find such mechanics and environments entertaining (though there are some you can never please, nor should you even try).

Amathe

I think that enough players are tired of the "rush to a max level end game lobby" model, that Pantheon can carve a niche that features slower progression.   

ste2000

DMKano said:

ste2000 said:

Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .

They won't. 

Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.

Did you just read my post?
Because I explained why retantion is so low after just a couple of months.
Once players hit End Game, they had their prize and quit.
Reaching the end game is the goal modern MMORPGs are built around, it became like a race, once you get through the finishing line, you stop running, simple as that.
You don't see runners that keep going around the track in circle after the race is over do you?
Yet the industry expect players to stick around playing the End Game, which to me is equal to going running around the track once the race is over.....there is simply no point.
It is actually simple psychology if you think about.

I believe that the industry vision is based on the false pretence that players like to jump from game to game, and that's because they insist in considering MMOs on par with other games.
I am a gamer and I like to play a game, beat it and move to another, so in this case they might have a point.
But when I play a MMO though, I like to play it for years and stick with it for as long as I can.

So the industry is currently making MMOs based on my "mainstream gamer" persona and keep ignoring my "MMO" persona, as if it doesn't exists.
The problem is that the mainstream industry never really understood what MMORPGs stands for.
So I hope that someone like Brad Mcquad can make a MMO which is as close as possible to the original purpose of a MMO, which was socialising and creating a comunity around it......not just play a game.

My fear is that Pantheon will end up being another generic MMO because Mcquaid listen to people like you.
I hope someone has the balls to prove this misconception wrong.

Sinist

DMKano said:

Sinist said:

DMKano said:

If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase. 

Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority. 

I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide 

VR only needs a small amount of subs to succeed. Out of millions of potential customers, a small percent is a huge success for a team of this size and modest development budget.

Do the math, sit down and run the numbers. A small game can easily be very successful if they run it like a small company. Big companies need big returns, being profitable isn't enough, they need to reach a significant level of profit to justify the venture.

Pantheon doesn't need to be the next WoW, or the next big hit. It just needs a small steady and healthy interest in the game to which will allow them to pay the bills and have enough to continue development. It is in VRs best interest to do what they do well, than do what others do in order to broaden their audience. Jack of all trades, is a master of none.

Besides, I agree with Brad in that if he can obtain his Vision (TM) to the full extent of its realization, even some mainstreamers will find such mechanics and environments entertaining (though there are some you can never please, nor should you even try).

Correct but let's say Pantheon only needs 30k players to stay afloat, wouldn't it be so much better for them to have 150k active players?

Even an indie game like Pantheon will strive for as a many players as possible because $$$

A game launch + first 3 months is where most of the money comes in due to retention rates, so making a few tweaks go attract more players for max launch payout is usually worth it.

Why stop there? How about 1 million? Heck lets shoot for 12 million and make the next WoW killer! /sarc

The more you try to appeal to a wider audience, the more likely you will run off your niche audience. I know this because several games over the years have done just that.

VR has to decide what their priority is (which by the way, they have with their Tenant/features and numerous statements). Is it to make the most money possible in making a game? Or is it to make a game they want to make and be as profitable as they can in making that game? If it is the former, then they should scrap Pantheon and go into the mobile MMO market, it is a huge money maker right now. If it is the latter, they should stick with the "Vision" and do their very best to see it to complete realization.

Kefo

DMKano said:

Correct but let's say Pantheon only needs 30k players to stay afloat, wouldn't it be so much better for them to have 150k active players?

Even an indie game like Pantheon will strive for as a many players as possible because $$$

A game launch + first 3 months is where most of the money comes in due to retention rates, so making a few tweaks go attract more players for max launch payout is usually worth it.

Sure 150K players is better than 30K players but it should happen naturally and not trying to force it. If you have 30K players and your business is doing well, players are happy and you are turning a profit then you don't suddenly decide I am going appeal to the mainstream gamer and then do a complete 180 on your game design.

You keep what you are doing and if more people sub then bonus for you, if not then oh well you still have a steady revenue stream.

danwest58

Let's really talk about XP groups and leveling because I feel too this is a very important topic.  However we need to look at the CORE part of MMOs today.  If most of the game's focus is on End Game Raiding, AKA WOW, FFXIV, and all the other MMOS having slow leveling will just kill your game.  I am sorry but if all the focus is on end game raiding people will just want to get to end game in a few days and raid.

NOW with that said if you make the MMO about the journey and raiding is just a part of the game but not THE GAME; then and only then you can have low leveling.  You have to go back to a time where in games like UO and SWG where even taking on tough monsters having several players even if they are not maxed in their skills they can down that content.  For example when I did Champion spawns in UO I did with with my Bard, he was a 3x GM (Magic, Meditation, Music)  my other skills were in the 80s even Provoke.  Guess what I didnt have a problem doing a Champion spawn because I joined 30 + other players that were their.  It also didnt take Raid like coordination to get the champion spawn complete.  It was FUN.  Even though I was leveling my skills.  I didnt have to be at max skills to do the Champion spawn.

If you do that having longer leveling can be done because the game does not start at end level it just makes it so you are less likely to get your ass handed to you when taking on tougher content.

As for XP Groups.  You have to be very careful with XP Groups.  Today people don't have time to wait 2 to 3 hours just to get into a FFXI like XP Group.  I am sorry but that will kill any game and thats a fact, we have players who today cannot play an MMO without a Party Finder who does not put them in a group in 10 minutes.  Now we dont need to be that stupid.  But we can balance out the need for a group with having good solo content for players who only have 30 or so minutes to play on a holiday for example.  SWG is a good example of this.  I didnt go out and try to kill a Rancor myself, I did that with a group, how ever I could go kill mobs that my skill will let me do BUT it was not the best XP.  It allowed me to have a few short period play seasons between other things but it pushed me to group with people to get better XP.  

The Key to Pantheon as well as other MMOs is balance between old school and new school ways.  

Sinist

DMKano said:

Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .

They won't. 

Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.

It's not the games, it's the players that jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game.

Slower leveling won't change that one bit.

This issue is more of one with existing games that had a consistent base who then started streamlining for fast leveled content. Look at WoW. WoW is losing players because there is no long term play, just a fast race to the end and then a "spinning of wheels". Same with DDO and other types of games. They make the content so fast, so easy, that they can't retain their player bases.

Smedly even commented on this in his blog about how the wave of the future is sandbox player created content because they can't keep up in providing content to the players. I disagree with him as his problem is the very thing we are discussing which is making content to cater to convenience over game play and the result is locust style behavior that is impossible to keep up with.

So, basically if your game is good to start (which is the reason people leave in the first month), then you have to keep people busy and that requires long term development with "journey game", not  "end game" so players are kept busy with content and developer have time to create new content.

Smedly is right about one thing. You can't make easy content that people can plow through in little time and keep up with them. The solution is to stop catering to the ADD crowd, even if it means reducing your target market size. There is no profit off the ADD crowd outside of marketing gimmicks for quick cash schemes.

Amathe

Sinist said:

WoW is losing players because there is no long term play, just a fast race to the end and then a "spinning of wheels". Same with DDO and other types of games. They make the content so fast, so easy, that they can't retain their player bases. 

I think WoW is losing players more because it is an 11 year old game competing in a market with many newer games, especially GW2. And I would have to say that a game which has around 6 million players after 11 years has done rather well at maintaining its audience. 

Getting the end game right is not easy. If you make it so hard that only 5% of the players will ever do it, then it's hardly worth having at all. If instead you make it so manageable that most people can do it, you alienate people who are looking for a real challenge, and face the problem of content exhaustion outpacing new production. 

Rather than give poor old WoW a kick in the jimmies, I think it would be better to see what can be taken away from its lessons that still fits with this game. And one lesson is that WoW has done a decent job of creating end game raiding that increases in difficulty, so that a lot of people can get a taste of it, but much fewer ever complete it on its highest difficulty setting. 

That way, there is something for everyone under the tree.

Antiquated

I like the idea that creatures are born, in infinite supply, at a predictable trickle just fast enough to meet the demand. Camping is a red-blooded American activity that makes perfect sense.

Particularly if you do it MUD-style, standing on a growing pile of creature corpses and trash gear that will continue to grow as long as the segment is loaded, or until the server crashes, whichever comes first.

"Immersive," yup yup yup.

Sinist

Amathe said:

Sinist said:

WoW is losing players because there is no long term play, just a fast race to the end and then a "spinning of wheels". Same with DDO and other types of games. They make the content so fast, so easy, that they can't retain their player bases. 

I think WoW is losing players more because it is an 11 year old game competing in a market with many newer games, especially GW2. And I would have to say that a game which has around 6 million players after 11 years has done rather well at maintaining its audience. 

Getting the end game right is not easy. If you make it so hard that only 5% of the players will ever do it, then it's hardly worth having at all. If instead you make it so manageable that most people can do it, you alienate people who are looking for a real challenge, and face the problem of content exhaustion outpacing new production. 

Rather than give poor old WoW a kick in the jimmies, I think it would be better to see what can be taken away from its lessons that still fits with this game. And one lesson is that WoW has done a decent job of creating end game raiding that increases in difficulty, so that a lot of people can get a taste of it, but much fewer ever complete it on its highest difficulty setting. 

That way, there is something for everyone under the tree.

Thing is Amathe, none of those games have anywhere near the subscription base WoW had, so where did they all go? MMOs are dying right now because of their designs.

Wow isn't getting an unfair assessment. WoW is making games for "everyone" and that is why it is dying. You can not make everyone happy, it is impossible. Look at DDO right now. People want a new mode above "elite"  (called reaper) because elite has become the mode everyone does and can do which is so ridiculously easy everyone is soloing it. You would think that wouldn't be an issue, that adding another difficulty would be fine, but nope... there is much strife over it because the crowd who likes to easy solo the elites are worried that better gear will drop in the reaper mode to which they won't be able to solo.

You can not please everyone and every game that does is failing for many reasons, a lot of it being that you can only do some mundane task over and over before the game is just a boring pointless effortless grind. They are bleeding people because there is no point in the game anymore. I know people who still play and I swear they bitch constantly about how there is nothing to do, they are bored, blah blah, but if you suggest harder more difficult content, longer leveling, etc... as is discussed here, they freak out and want nothing to do with it.

I played all of WoW up until BC, then off and on up to Cata, with a couple of returns to check it out after and the game is nothing what it was, it is a entertainment theme park chat room with boring content, pointless tasks, and ridiculous rewards (ie you stacked 100 widgets, here is the ARMOR OF THE GODS!!!).

WoW is failing because of mainstream game design and that same market is bailing on the PC MMO market to capture the next fad market in mobile (Turbine/Warner bros have put their MMOs on autopilot and chased that market, which is typical for big business who chase money, make money, but don't make games).

That is not to say that WoW doesn't have some interesting solutions it had and interesting mechanics, but the fact is that if you make games for everyone, only the lowest common denominator will be happy.

It is important that Pantheon continue on focusing to its Tenants and serving a very specific design and style as that way, people can choose to play the game or not based on their acceptance of that style of play, after all the entire market is mostly focused on one style of play (ie lowest common denominator) and as Brad believes (and I agree), many people are going to enjoy Pantheon when it is finished because all of these "game play" things that I discuss, that brad talks about, etc... they really are the "key" to an addictive game play experience. They didn't call EQ "Evercrack" for nothing.

Antiquated

Sinist said:
Wow isn't getting an unfair assessment. WoW is making games for "everyone" and that is why it is dying. You can not make everyone happy, it is impossible.

It only works for a decade or so, just long enough for you to bank multiple billions in revenue.

So much better to milk 30k players (for as long as they'll let you) with an appeal to nostalgia pitch. Maybe you'll bank a million, some day. But by gum you didn't "sell out" rawr!

Wonder if the wife and kids care if I "sell out" or not? Or should I go for the seven-figure salary? Hmm, decisions decisions.

Vorthanion

No one knows how a well crafted, truly niche MMO will perform in today's market, but it's about time someone tried.  I'm a firm believer that niche MMOs are the future of this genre.  I feel that much of the dissatisfaction that gamers are expressing right now is due to the homogenized monstrosities that are being developed.  Competing play styles being forced to play nice together is a recipe for mediocrity.