Sinist said: Wow isn't getting an unfair assessment. WoW is making games for "everyone" and that is why it is dying. You can not make everyone happy, it is impossible.
It only works for a decade or so, just long enough for you to bank multiple billions in revenue.
So much better to milk 30k players (for as long as they'll let you) with an appeal to nostalgia pitch. Maybe you'll bank a million, some day. But by gum you didn't "sell out" rawr!
Boy bands make the music industry enormous amounts of money, does that make their music good quality or does it simply mean there are a lot of stupid people who are easily amused?
Sinist said: Boy bands make the music industry enormous amounts of money, does that make their music good quality or does it simply mean there are a lot of stupid people who are easily amused?
Ah, the appeal to superiority pitch, too. Always a classic.
Well, if it makes you feel better to be the "principled" starving musician, go nuts.
Personally, I think the marketing pitch is easy as hell to spot from a mile out.
The "game play things" that you discuss are not new to me, as I played EQ, and more often than not I am looking for the same things in Pantheon that you are (although one would hardly know it from our posts). I also played WoW for three years. But I'm not looking to "WoW-ify" Pantheon.
However, as I have said before, I am pretty sure that when EQ was designed, it was not intended that it be fun only for the most elite players, and with everyone else meant to eat cat food. I played with lots and lots of people who never went to EQ's darkest dungeons, never fought its biggest dragons, and never had its best items. But they too loved that game. LOTs of them loved it.
The FAQ say the game is meant for people who "enjoy cooperative and social play." I enjoy both those things. I know a lot of people from games you decry as "mainstream" who also enjoy them. There should be an ample audience for Pantheon at launch. For how long, I can't say. Like every other game company (and business for that matter), once you get people in the door you have to keep them happy. It's easier said than done.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Sinist said: Boy bands make the music industry enormous amounts of money, does that make their music good quality or does it simply mean there are a lot of stupid people who are easily amused?
Ah, the appeal to superiority pitch, too. Always a classic.
Well, if it makes you feel better to be the "principled" starving musician, go nuts.
Personally, I think the marketing pitch is easy as hell to spot from a mile out.
If we measured quality by such quantity, we would only eat McDonalds, shop at Walmart, and listen to One Direction.
Thankfully success and quality are not measured simply by how much you sell.
Your rebuttals to me though are kind of like a person admonishing another for wanting a quality steak when there is Burger King around the corner. Apparently I am "principled" and "elitist" for wanting something other than ground up animal parts.
Thanks for the education though, I should learn to accept what mainstream deems acceptable, wouldn't want to have an original thought or anything, it might spook the cattle.
If we measured quality by such quantity, we would only eat McDonalds, shop at Walmart, and listen to One Direction.
That is a valid point. But also true is the fact that if we judged quality based on rarity, we would eat peppermint goat testicles, shop at my mother-in-law's monthly garage sales, and listen to a band I played with in my garage.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If we measured quality by such quantity, we would only eat McDonalds, shop at Walmart, and listen to One Direction.
That is a valid point. But also true is the fact that if we judged quality based on rarity, we would eat peppermint goat testicles, shop at my mother-in-law's monthly garage sales, and listen to a band I played with in my garage.
I was not making an argument of extremes, he was. He was attempting to claim that quality was established by sales, which is an invalid premise. He was also implying that to not appeal to mainstream (ie making games that sell out to the masses) is consigning ones self to that of living as a starving musician, also an invalid premise.
I think the discussion has been very clear in establishing itself around the fact that Pantheon can be successful under its specific goals and audience and those who object aren't making an argument out of reason, but one out of a need to defend the status quot.
He appeared to be angry because I spoke ill of WoW, not the first time I ran into one of those devoted fans of mediocrity.
If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase.
Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority.
I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide
Totally disagree. This is the classic "copy & paste" mainstream mentality which thinks that majority of players wants to beat games within 2 months. I think this is a rather superficial analisys and very naive for the Industry to think so, this is the sort of mentality that is killing MMORPGs.
After WoW came out, we had 1000 MMORPGs that came out after it. 95% of them with a fast leveling curve. I struggle to think of any of those games that kept their original player base for more than a couple of months, and didn't have to go F2P in the process in order to survive.
I don't know why this is not obvious yet, but the End Game is the death of a MMORPG. People keep playing a MMORPG in a quest to reach the End Game, but once they reached it.....ooops their interest plummets. That happens systematically throughout all those MMOs, look around you, an experienced MMO player like yourself should have noticed this trend by now.
What the MMOs have to do is to make leveling much slower and the leveling content moreinteresting and more challenging, so people are not stressed to get to level caps as fast as they can. No one tried that yet, I hope Pantheon do not make the same mistake everyone else is doing, thinking that players hate leveling and are only interested in the End Game. I believe the opposite is true.
Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .
They won't.
Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.
It's not the games, it's the players that jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game.
Slower leveling won't change that one bit.
And your argument is based on the false premise that somehow their company will be more profitable if they appeal to a larger number of people for a shorter time.
No one has had slow leveling since the genre became inundated with the WoW formula. If the game is enjoyable and there is meaningful progression beyond just levels, it doesn't matter how long a level takes. The people you would lose to such a system are irrelevant anyway, because they aren't looking for a long term game, just something they can "beat" and move on.
Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .
They won't.
Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.
It's not the games, it's the players that jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game.
Slower leveling won't change that one bit.
Players jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game because 4 weeks was enough to completely finish any MMO that's been released in the last 10 years.
Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .
They won't.
Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.
It's not the games, it's the players that jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game.
Slower leveling won't change that one bit.
This issue is more of one with existing games that had a consistent base who then started streamlining for fast leveled content. Look at WoW. WoW is losing players because there is no long term play, just a fast race to the end and then a "spinning of wheels". Same with DDO and other types of games. They make the content so fast, so easy, that they can't retain their player bases.
Smedly even commented on this in his blog about how the wave of the future is sandbox player created content because they can't keep up in providing content to the players. I disagree with him as his problem is the very thing we are discussing which is making content to cater to convenience over game play and the result is locust style behavior that is impossible to keep up with.
So, basically if your game is good to start (which is the reason people leave in the first month), then you have to keep people busy and that requires long term development with "journey game", not "end game" so players are kept busy with content and developer have time to create new content.
Smedly is right about one thing. You can't make easy content that people can plow through in little time and keep up with them. The solution is to stop catering to the ADD crowd, even if it means reducing your target market size. There is no profit off the ADD crowd outside of marketing gimmicks for quick cash schemes.
If you want to profit off the ADD generation these days just make a new call of duty every year and ship it out, they eat that shit right up.
However for the niche crowd that Pantheon is looking to target we want old school Everquest style mechanics. I don't get why people come in and say it can't be done, look at all the money that is being made by indie developers on steam making hardcore oldschool games, it's practically a trend.
The content treadmill is a good analogy, because the problem for the last 10 years with these games is that the content has to be watered down garbage because the treadmill is set to its fastest setting, the devs only have about 2 weeks to make new content before the players chew through it.
I think the leveling curve should be even slower than EQ, the slower the better, because the more time the dev's have to make new content before I can consume it, the better.
EQ wasn't even that slow, in classic at a hardcore pace I could achieve max level in about 2-3 weeks, granted my gear would be total garbage and it would take me another 2-3 weeks to get it up to snuff, but I could do it. This is also with guaranteed groups every moment I was on, and doing nothing but leveling.
If they make it anything like Vanilla EQ1, they will be severely limiting their potential playerbase.
Sure anyone who played EQ1 here would be able to tolerate the rate of leveling - but we are a tiny minority.
I can see Pantheon being a slower pace game but I doubt that it will be anything as slow as Vanilla Eq1, because that would be a business suicide
Totally disagree. This is the classic "copy & paste" mainstream mentality which thinks that majority of players wants to beat games within 2 months. I think this is a rather superficial analisys and very naive for the Industry to think so, this is the sort of mentality that is killing MMORPGs.
After WoW came out, we had 1000 MMORPGs that came out after it. 95% of them with a fast leveling curve. I struggle to think of any of those games that kept their original player base for more than a couple of months, and didn't have to go F2P in the process in order to survive.
I don't know why this is not obvious yet, but the End Game is the death of a MMORPG. People keep playing a MMORPG in a quest to reach the End Game, but once they reached it.....ooops their interest plummets. That happens systematically throughout all those MMOs, look around you, an experienced MMO player like yourself should have noticed this trend by now.
What the MMOs have to do is to make leveling much slower and the leveling content moreinteresting and more challenging, so people are not stressed to get to level caps as fast as they can. No one tried that yet, I hope Pantheon do not make the same mistake everyone else is doing, thinking that players hate leveling and are only interested in the End Game. I believe the opposite is true.
Your argument is based on a false premise that slower leveling mmorpgs would retain their playerbase longer *today* .
They won't.
Mmorpg retention is still under 20% past firat month.
It's not the games, it's the players that jump ship after 4-6 weeks regardless of game.
Slower leveling won't change that one bit.
You have to keep in mind that Pantheon is not catered for all those hormone raging nerds.
A type of gameplay you don't enjoy doesn't become better if all you change is that you have to kill 2x/4x as many monster or complete 2x/4x as many cut and paste quests. The reason why people dislike modern mmorpg's has little to do with leveling pace, you wouldn't think WoW leveling would be any better if every quest involved killing 40 mobs instead of 10, it would just be four times the turd pile.
The positive thing about slowing down leveling in a game based on socializing and group content is that it gives you more opportunity to play with the same kind of players and allows you to create bonds that simply can't be created in a space where people gain a level every 1-3 hours.
However, there is a limit on how much repetition you can put players through until they say "I am sick and tired of this stuff, I want to see something new". The more mmorpg's you have played, the more you are likely to experience grind fatigue and that's why its much harder to make people connect to yet another mmorpg.
As much as people like to complain about younger players its in fact older players that has moved away from these sorts of games. The game has to be capable of capturing nerds in their late teens or young adulthood since they will be the ones creating game communities like we once did. They are the difference of a population of 5k vs one with 50k.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
A type of gameplay you don't enjoy doesn't become better if all you change is that you have to kill 2x/4x as many monster or complete 2x/4x as many cut and paste quests. The reason why people dislike modern mmorpg's has little to do with leveling pace, you wouldn't think WoW leveling would be any better if every quest involved killing 40 mobs instead of 10, it would just be four times the turd pile.
The positive thing about slowing down leveling in a game based on socializing and group content is that it gives you more opportunity to play with the same kind of players and allows you to create bonds that simply can't be created in a space where people gain a level every 1-3 hours.
However, there is a limit on how much repetition you can put players through until they say "I am sick and tired of this stuff, I want to see something new". The more mmorpg's you have played, the more you are likely to experience grind fatigue and that's why its much harder to make people connect to yet another mmorpg.
As much as people like to complain about younger players its in fact older players that has moved away from these sorts of games. The game has to be capable of capturing nerds in their late teens or young adulthood since they will be the ones creating game communities like we once did. They are the difference of a population of 5k vs one with 50k.
I think they are best off building a game on solid principals and foundations that we know to have worked in the past than applying more marketing gimmicks to attract players based on what is "perceived" to be the mindset of any given audience. In fact, it is that attempt at design to which has given us the games we have today.
Reminds me of Vangaurd, we would have to put groups together just to enter certain zones, and we would huddle together in fear waiting for a lock to pull and kite 5, mins later the mob would be dead, we would all get a little XP then sneak around and get into position for the next pull. Tense memorable and fun as hell.
I've yet to play a game since that inducing any sort of fear in death like that. Massive XP loss, corpse runs to retrieve your gear or suffer even greater losses summoning your tombstone. How about having someone stealth in, lasso and drag your tombstone out of danger, freaking awesome.
In vanguard recovering from death was in itself a mini game.
I don't think this would work in the modern day not because it is hard to get people to do but everyone complains if a game has grind now. It is weird actually. Every time I see these threads it's like "Oh this game used to be so deep and fun, we used to sit in one spot and kill the same 4 mobs in a group for 25 hours straight because we couldn't kill any other mobs so it was dangerous". That sounds horrible. Back in the day sure it was probably super fun, but today if a game came out like that I really doubt you would be there playing that. I know I'm probably going to get hate for saying that, but it's really weird in my eyes. Any time a korean grinder comes out everyone is like "Oh thats horrible korean grind" But isn't it basically the same thing? You get a group and grind mobs for hours. EQ didn't even have quests that were worth doing. I played the TL servers and I ground mobs for hours and gained like 3 levels it was super boring. Even while talking to people. It was monotony just to talk to group members. That's what guilds are for now.
The rogue scouting out the camp thanks to its stealth, the bard or monk pulling mobs, the enchanter controlling CC, the tank grabbing aggro, the shaman debuffing and slowing incoming mobs, and the healers and DPS doing their thing.
The fact the camp is "static" is what allows this amount of control and cooperation to work.
A type of gameplay you don't enjoy doesn't become better if all you change is that you have to kill 2x/4x as many monster or complete 2x/4x as many cut and paste quests. The reason why people dislike modern mmorpg's has little to do with leveling pace, you wouldn't think WoW leveling would be any better if every quest involved killing 40 mobs instead of 10, it would just be four times the turd pile.
The positive thing about slowing down leveling in a game based on socializing and group content is that it gives you more opportunity to play with the same kind of players and allows you to create bonds that simply can't be created in a space where people gain a level every 1-3 hours.
However, there is a limit on how much repetition you can put players through until they say "I am sick and tired of this stuff, I want to see something new". The more mmorpg's you have played, the more you are likely to experience grind fatigue and that's why its much harder to make people connect to yet another mmorpg.
As much as people like to complain about younger players its in fact older players that has moved away from these sorts of games. The game has to be capable of capturing nerds in their late teens or young adulthood since they will be the ones creating game communities like we once did. They are the difference of a population of 5k vs one with 50k.
Yes and no.
For many people, a slower leveling process naturally creates a greater attachment to both the game and your character. People simply enjoy filling up progress bars and striving to reach the highest level when it actually requires time and skill. Even moreso if its a cooperative effort and a social experience (shared adversity). Like anything you devote time to, you gain a sense of pride in your work and accomplishments.
However, you are right in that if the content is merely redundant and "cut and paste quests" its unlikely to hold most people's attention. Even the inner-completionist that drives most people (with character) to press on will justifiably, fold.
Without having "places to go and things to do", a slow leveling process won't be tolerable. On the other hand, if you give players that content with a slow leveling process, it will present many players with a challenge they not only enjoy, but can't resist persevering to complete.
I don't think this would work in the modern day not because it is hard to get people to do but everyone complains if a game has grind now. It is weird actually. Every time I see these threads it's like "Oh this game used to be so deep and fun, we used to sit in one spot and kill the same 4 mobs in a group for 25 hours straight because we couldn't kill any other mobs so it was dangerous". That sounds horrible. Back in the day sure it was probably super fun, but today if a game came out like that I really doubt you would be there playing that. I know I'm probably going to get hate for saying that, but it's really weird in my eyes. Any time a korean grinder comes out everyone is like "Oh thats horrible korean grind" But isn't it basically the same thing? You get a group and grind mobs for hours. EQ didn't even have quests that were worth doing. I played the TL servers and I ground mobs for hours and gained like 3 levels it was super boring. Even while talking to people. It was monotony just to talk to group members. That's what guilds are for now.
Yet many of us played EQ for many years. So, apparently camping wasn't as bad as you think it is. Also, saying EQ quests weren't worth doing? Did you even play EQ?
For many people, a slower leveling process naturally creates a greater attachment to both the game and your character. People simply enjoy filling up progress bars and striving to reach the highest level when it actually requires time and skill. Even moreso if its a cooperative effort and a social experience (shared adversity). Like anything you devote time to, you gain a sense of pride in your work and accomplishments.
However, you are right in that if the content is merely redundant and "cut and paste quests" its unlikely to hold most people's attention. Even the inner-completionist that drives most people (with character) to press on will justifiably, fold.
Without having "places to go and things to do", a slow leveling process won't be tolerable. On the other hand, if you give players that content with a slow leveling process, it will present many players with a challenge they not only enjoy, but can't resist persevering to complete.
I completely agree.
If your game is going to have a longer leveling curve, then there has to the content to support it. Variety of places to level and explore with a variety of mobs types and abilities to handle them.
I'm all for a longer curve of anything over 6 months to a year even. If i only have a few places to level and the landscapes are similar, then i'm going to get bored rather quickly. I need variety.
I also need some other aspect to compliment the leveling. Something i can do when i'm not fighting mobs. Perhaps something like proper housing or anything community related. Something that makes the journey just as important.
I seriously hope Pantheon is for the niche crowds who actually do care about the EQ1 experience and feel. Game hoppers, content locusts and easy/lazy levelers need not apply.
Its so funny, 16 years ago and I still remember my first zone run from Qeynos to Freeport. I was actually terrified. Some level 15 ranger said he knew the way so my wife and I, both level 6 figured what the hell. I remember dodging Cyclops and Griffons, then the jack ass took us through Beholders Gorge..needless to say that is where the party ended. To this day, its still one of my fondness memories of any game. It was my first MMO gaming experience. I follow Pantheon because Im hoping to find a game that can bring content that can bring emotion back to the genre.
When I first started playing SWG a guy on Tatoonie offered to run us to a leveling spot. No vehicles, so it was actually a long run to Wayfair and then to the Tusken Village next to it. The run in and of itself felt remarkable seeing dino size mobs around us and big flying creatures above us, with him telling us not to run to close to some of the beasts.
Tusken Village turned out to be a perfect leveling spot as there were mobs that ran from low to max levels spread out in little sections that cycled perfectly. Yes you could level your character from low to max in that one area but the best thing about it was making a lot of friends during the down cycles and getting a lot of tips and clues about the game. Great leveling, great discussions, good times. Eventually they moved the spot to the middle of nowhere and nerfed it to nothingness. After that there was still Tusken Fort. :-)
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Without having "places to go and things to do", a slow leveling process won't be tolerable. On the other hand, if you give players that content with a slow leveling process, it will present many players with a challenge they not only enjoy, but can't resist persevering to complete.
Yes I am not suggesting that xp grinding groups should be the game's principal activity. That would be awful. I would like to see it available as something you can do when it suits you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Its so funny, 16 years ago and I still remember my first zone run from Qeynos to Freeport. I was actually terrified. Some level 15 ranger said he knew the way so my wife and I, both level 6 figured what the hell. I remember dodging Cyclops and Griffons, then the jack ass took us through Beholders Gorge..needless to say that is where the party ended. To this day, its still one of my fondness memories of any game. It was my first MMO gaming experience. I follow Pantheon because Im hoping to find a game that can bring content that can bring emotion back to the genre.
I will never forget the night a mage and cleric I had befriended in Eastern Commonlands. I was a mere level 8 and we all wanted to see Rivervale. That required to get a SoW buff and invis because the lions in Western Commonlands could out run us. I remember hugging the right wall in Kithicor Forest to get to the entrance of Rivervale. Well the time we left Rivervale to get back to Freeport, it was night time in Kithacor and none of us knew that high level undead would spawn in the night. Won't forget that moment either.
Comments
Well, if it makes you feel better to be the "principled" starving musician, go nuts.
Personally, I think the marketing pitch is easy as hell to spot from a mile out.
The "game play things" that you discuss are not new to me, as I played EQ, and more often than not I am looking for the same things in Pantheon that you are (although one would hardly know it from our posts). I also played WoW for three years. But I'm not looking to "WoW-ify" Pantheon.
However, as I have said before, I am pretty sure that when EQ was designed, it was not intended that it be fun only for the most elite players, and with everyone else meant to eat cat food. I played with lots and lots of people who never went to EQ's darkest dungeons, never fought its biggest dragons, and never had its best items. But they too loved that game. LOTs of them loved it.
The FAQ say the game is meant for people who "enjoy cooperative and social play." I enjoy both those things. I know a lot of people from games you decry as "mainstream" who also enjoy them. There should be an ample audience for Pantheon at launch. For how long, I can't say. Like every other game company (and business for that matter), once you get people in the door you have to keep them happy. It's easier said than done.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If we measured quality by such quantity, we would only eat McDonalds, shop at Walmart, and listen to One Direction.
Thankfully success and quality are not measured simply by how much you sell.
Your rebuttals to me though are kind of like a person admonishing another for wanting a quality steak when there is Burger King around the corner. Apparently I am "principled" and "elitist" for wanting something other than ground up animal parts.
Thanks for the education though, I should learn to accept what mainstream deems acceptable, wouldn't want to have an original thought or anything, it might spook the cattle.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think the discussion has been very clear in establishing itself around the fact that Pantheon can be successful under its specific goals and audience and those who object aren't making an argument out of reason, but one out of a need to defend the status quot.
He appeared to be angry because I spoke ill of WoW, not the first time I ran into one of those devoted fans of mediocrity.
No one has had slow leveling since the genre became inundated with the WoW formula. If the game is enjoyable and there is meaningful progression beyond just levels, it doesn't matter how long a level takes. The people you would lose to such a system are irrelevant anyway, because they aren't looking for a long term game, just something they can "beat" and move on.
If you want to profit off the ADD generation these days just make a new call of duty every year and ship it out, they eat that shit right up.
However for the niche crowd that Pantheon is looking to target we want old school Everquest style mechanics. I don't get why people come in and say it can't be done, look at all the money that is being made by indie developers on steam making hardcore oldschool games, it's practically a trend.
The content treadmill is a good analogy, because the problem for the last 10 years with these games is that the content has to be watered down garbage because the treadmill is set to its fastest setting, the devs only have about 2 weeks to make new content before the players chew through it.
I think the leveling curve should be even slower than EQ, the slower the better, because the more time the dev's have to make new content before I can consume it, the better.
EQ wasn't even that slow, in classic at a hardcore pace I could achieve max level in about 2-3 weeks, granted my gear would be total garbage and it would take me another 2-3 weeks to get it up to snuff, but I could do it. This is also with guaranteed groups every moment I was on, and doing nothing but leveling.
The positive thing about slowing down leveling in a game based on socializing and group content is that it gives you more opportunity to play with the same kind of players and allows you to create bonds that simply can't be created in a space where people gain a level every 1-3 hours.
However, there is a limit on how much repetition you can put players through until they say "I am sick and tired of this stuff, I want to see something new". The more mmorpg's you have played, the more you are likely to experience grind fatigue and that's why its much harder to make people connect to yet another mmorpg.
As much as people like to complain about younger players its in fact older players that has moved away from these sorts of games. The game has to be capable of capturing nerds in their late teens or young adulthood since they will be the ones creating game communities like we once did. They are the difference of a population of 5k vs one with 50k.
I think they are best off building a game on solid principals and foundations that we know to have worked in the past than applying more marketing gimmicks to attract players based on what is "perceived" to be the mindset of any given audience. In fact, it is that attempt at design to which has given us the games we have today.
Point is, you make a game, not market gimmick.
Reminds me of Vangaurd, we would have to put groups together just to enter certain zones, and we would huddle together in fear waiting for a lock to pull and kite 5, mins later the mob would be dead, we would all get a little XP then sneak around and get into position for the next pull. Tense memorable and fun as hell.
I've yet to play a game since that inducing any sort of fear in death like that. Massive XP loss, corpse runs to retrieve your gear or suffer even greater losses summoning your tombstone. How about having someone stealth in, lasso and drag your tombstone out of danger, freaking awesome.
In vanguard recovering from death was in itself a mini game.
I love how EQ does combat.
Everyone gets a specific function.
The rogue scouting out the camp thanks to its stealth, the bard or monk pulling mobs, the enchanter controlling CC, the tank grabbing aggro, the shaman debuffing and slowing incoming mobs, and the healers and DPS doing their thing.
The fact the camp is "static" is what allows this amount of control and cooperation to work.
For many people, a slower leveling process naturally creates a greater attachment to both the game and your character. People simply enjoy filling up progress bars and striving to reach the highest level when it actually requires time and skill. Even moreso if its a cooperative effort and a social experience (shared adversity). Like anything you devote time to, you gain a sense of pride in your work and accomplishments.
However, you are right in that if the content is merely redundant and "cut and paste quests" its unlikely to hold most people's attention. Even the inner-completionist that drives most people (with character) to press on will justifiably, fold.
Without having "places to go and things to do", a slow leveling process won't be tolerable. On the other hand, if you give players that content with a slow leveling process, it will present many players with a challenge they not only enjoy, but can't resist persevering to complete.
If your game is going to have a longer leveling curve, then there has to the content to support it. Variety of places to level and explore with a variety of mobs types and abilities to handle them.
I'm all for a longer curve of anything over 6 months to a year even. If i only have a few places to level and the landscapes are similar, then i'm going to get bored rather quickly. I need variety.
I also need some other aspect to compliment the leveling. Something i can do when i'm not fighting mobs. Perhaps something like proper housing or anything community related. Something that makes the journey just as important.
Tusken Village turned out to be a perfect leveling spot as there were mobs that ran from low to max levels spread out in little sections that cycled perfectly. Yes you could level your character from low to max in that one area but the best thing about it was making a lot of friends during the down cycles and getting a lot of tips and clues about the game. Great leveling, great discussions, good times. Eventually they moved the spot to the middle of nowhere and nerfed it to nothingness. After that there was still Tusken Fort. :-)
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