Do people dislike games becuase of complexity?

muffins89

what do you think?

Octagon7711

It depends on how good the game is overall.  I use to do spread sheets and create builds for optimum dps or healing, review forums for tips and clues, and do a lot of research in advance but now a days I like to just jump on, play, and have fun even if it's not the best weapons set or gear.  

If the game is good I may put up with complexity for a brief while but probably won't stay long.  I don't think complexity is equal to fun and don't really like games with 10 different types of currencies and 15 different classifications for difficulty levels.  

muffins89

I like to think the answer is yes. 

if a game is too easy.  to me it's no fun.

on the flip side.  if a game is too hard it might be fun for a while.  but then it just becomes frustrating.

sunandshadow

I've definitely encountered systems within games that are so complex you can't "learn by doing", which makes them un-fun for many players, though not all.

Lyrian

Depends. It needs to be like an onion with the complexity layered on top of simple and reasonably easy to understand concepts. I don't want to have to break out a calculator every single time I get a new piece of gear to figure out what is better for me. But I don't want the game to be so simple that my path is practically chose for me.

goboygo

The best designed game systems, interfaces, are easy to pick up and hard to master.  Not many game designers are good at it.  What we usually get is:

Simple gameplay simple interface and mechanics.  < -- common

Simple gameplay convoluted interface and mechanics.  < -- all to common

Complex gameplay with convoluted interface and mechanics < -- less common by still more desirable

Complex gameplay with elegant interface easy to learn hard to master mechanics. < -- rare as hell the holy grail

Theocritus

I really cant remember a MMO that was too complex...Some of them overcomplicate simple things but that isnt complex.

Dauzqul

Complex games are daunting to new players. However, they offer so much more entertainment once you learn them.

Easy games are the first to be fun / bored of.

Flyte27

One thing I've noticed is I'm losing patience in terms of playing the looting and inventory game.  I enjoyed the Witcher 3 a lot, but I hated having to loot something every five seconds and then checking to see what needs to be sold and what needs to be kept.  It does add some measure of complexity, but it is extremely tedious.  I don't believe there is a need for so much loot in a game.  The Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/4 have this issue as well.  Divinity Original Sin is a decent compromise.  You don't get Loot quite as often which makes it less of a hassle to go through and see what you can do with it.

Complex controls aren't always better.  Sometimes they are just bad control schemes for either keyboard or gamepad.

I feel MMOs are most guilty of lack of complexity in terms of solo content, exploration, crafting, and usefulness to others in the game.

BigRambo

If we're talking about MMO's in general, then no complexity has nothing to do with whether a player likes the game or not.   I'll give you some examples of what really drives people away after a short a while (2-3 months max) 


 1- This should come at a no surprise, F2P games, yes those games that are suppose to be "FREE" if you want to stay weak all the way, or be like the "cool" (more like idiots) boys / girls and put money on the cash shop to enhance your gaming experience.  What people fail to understand is that the vast majority of people that cry about paying a sub fee (P2P) 10 to 15$ a month will go to a F2P title and put double or triple the sub fee a month???  *mind blown*  +   *I don't want to live on this planet anymore*   


2- EVE-Online, seriously for someone that has never played the game, they will find it pretty hard to get used to. But EVE used to be great, until CCP decided to give full power to their small niche of hardcore pricks and newbies can't even do anything in the game without having to constantly watch over their shoulder to not get blown up.  EVE-Online lost about 30K active players inside of a 3 year period and it slowly keeps dropping month after month. So what I'm saying, open world full loot PvP is a major no-no that drives people away, CCP used to have the perfect balance but dropped the ball big time and they are paying the price. 


3- Eastern games ... I fail to understand why people always hype on these games?  It's the same garbage that we keep getting thrown at our faces since 2010 but with "better" graphics. What happens here is that people will fall for the hype, play the new release that looks absolutely the same as the 50ish titles released before it, and when they start realizing that it's the same game but with different skins, they stop playing and uninstall the game. I'd name a few, but it would be more easier to just tell you to look at the game list of this site and pretty much everything since 2008-09, be it NCSoft, AerieGames, GPotato, Nexon and so on is a waste of time. If you're already playing one of the titles from X publisher, stick with it because there won't be much difference with their new release. The one title that comes up at the top of my head because I was anticipating it to be awesome and that's Ragnarok 2.  But barely played 20 minutes and it reminded me of ROSE Online and about 100 other titles that I tried before.  So yes, as far as I'm concerned, pretty much any game released by the Eastern world, especially MMO's, is a waste of time because it's more of the same. 


 So in conclusion, complexity will never drive people away, it's how the game is built around that will either keep people logging in hour after hour, or drive them away for good.  

 My only wish is for a Western Dev to make a MMO with the same battle system / concept as Nexon's Atlantica Online but without the stupid P2W cash shop and make it P2P.   

Vermillion_Raventhal

Flyte27 said:

One thing I've noticed is I'm losing patience in terms of playing the looting and inventory game.  I enjoyed the Witcher 3 a lot, but I hated having to loot something every five seconds and then checking to see what needs to be sold and what needs to be kept.  It does add some measure of complexity, but it is extremely tedious.  I don't believe there is a need for so much loot in a game.  The Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/4 have this issue as well.  Divinity Original Sin is a decent compromise.  You don't get Loot quite as often which makes it less of a hassle to go through and see what you can do with it.

Complex controls aren't always better.  Sometimes they are just bad control schemes for either keyboard or gamepad.

I feel MMOs are most guilty of lack of complexity in terms of solo content, exploration, crafting, and usefulness to others in the game.

I have always hated the overlooting. Tons of trash, tons of disconnected items from what you killed and tons of upgrades making finding something good mean less.  

CertheGreat

feels like new mmo's are trying way to hard im looking at you chronicles of elyria

nariusseldon

Dauzqul said:

Complex games are daunting to new players. However, they offer so much more entertainment once you learn them.

Easy games are the first to be fun / bored of.

Complexity is not necessary for challenges.

Chess is simple to learn, but difficult to master. The same applies to computer games. 

sunandshadow

Flyte27 said:

One thing I've noticed is I'm losing patience in terms of playing the looting and inventory game.  I enjoyed the Witcher 3 a lot, but I hated having to loot something every five seconds and then checking to see what needs to be sold and what needs to be kept.  It does add some measure of complexity, but it is extremely tedious.  I don't believe there is a need for so much loot in a game.  The Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/4 have this issue as well.  Divinity Original Sin is a decent compromise.  You don't get Loot quite as often which makes it less of a hassle to go through and see what you can do with it.

Complex controls aren't always better.  Sometimes they are just bad control schemes for either keyboard or gamepad.

I feel MMOs are most guilty of lack of complexity in terms of solo content, exploration, crafting, and usefulness to others in the game.

One of my absolute favorite mods for this type of game is one that nullifies inventory limits.  Then I can just loot everything, and only check it when I actually want to sell it.

jalexbrown

Complexity is bad.  Depth is good.

I think of depth as the amount of room I have to make meaningful choices within the game's mechanics.  On the other hand, I think of complexity as how hard it is to determine the choices available or their consequences.  Complexity obfuscates truth depth while masking itself as artificial depth.

Archlyte

Complicated says to me that someone was at least trying to add some longevity to the game. I love having a game that is very deep and multi-faceted so that I can learn it over time and appreciate the way it was put together. A simple game with no complexity is something that will bore me quickly because the meta is just not there. I am looking for something with hidden mechanics, shadow debuffs and buffs, stats and modifiers, crazy hard to find items that give a modifier to byzantine skills, etc. The harder it is for players to get all of the stars padded and put into their build the better I like it. If all you have to do is find the item with +500 universal stat then I have no interest. 

mark2123

I used to really like complex games as a kid and teenager when I had all the time in the world. The more complex the better.

Now, with wife, kids, job etc, I just want to be entertained for an hour or two.

fistorm

The more complex a game is the more strategy will be required.  I think all games should be complex.

Kaneth

Flyte27 said:

One thing I've noticed is I'm losing patience in terms of playing the looting and inventory game.  I enjoyed the Witcher 3 a lot, but I hated having to loot something every five seconds and then checking to see what needs to be sold and what needs to be kept.  It does add some measure of complexity, but it is extremely tedious.  I don't believe there is a need for so much loot in a game.  The Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3/4 have this issue as well.  Divinity Original Sin is a decent compromise.  You don't get Loot quite as often which makes it less of a hassle to go through and see what you can do with it.

Complex controls aren't always better.  Sometimes they are just bad control schemes for either keyboard or gamepad.

I feel MMOs are most guilty of lack of complexity in terms of solo content, exploration, crafting, and usefulness to others in the game.

At least Fallout 4 seems to address some of the issues with the over looting by adding value to items that can be broken down into core components and used to build/upgrade. Something that was sorely missing in Skyrim. 

fistorm

I remember in EQOA when you would loot a ton of gems while grinding then when inventoy was full you would go to town and sell them to crafters for 1k each, they would craft them all up and sell to merchant for 3k each.  Because the loot held solid disposable value, loot would never sit on auction.  Auction was only for really rare items people actually wanted.

Amathe

Complexity can add to a game being fun. But complexity in itself is not necessarily fun. 

Quirhid

Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.

No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.

tawess

For me complexity is fine... For an example i really enjoy raiding on a fairly advanced level. 

What is a problem for me is when games try to pass off time consuming as complex... Simple adding a ton of tedious little tasks does not make a game complex. Neither does a bloated skill system or a crafting system with unnecessary steps. Sure it strokes the ego of the one who master it... But it does not equal complexity. 

Many games get this wrong. 

Colt47

Complexity can be an issue, but usually it's how well a game teaches someone how to play that causes a lot of problems.  Think about it: how hard is it to pick up and play a game like Quake or Unreal Tournament 2004?  wasd moves the character, mouse changes where we aim, we got a fire and alt fire button, space bar is jump, C is crouch (usually), and 1-0 are weapons.  It takes very little for someone to understand how that works because we've gradually learned the ropes of the genre as we grew up.

Now take MMOs with systems not linked to controls, like crafting that utilizes a window, various timer bars, etc.  Those don't link naturally to physical controls and take more time to learn since we don't have a basis for it.  Also throw in specific key press orders for rotations, extra hot bars for potions, boss mechanics...

Kyleran

Quirhid said:

Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.

No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.

I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.

After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.

DrDread74

Some people play World of Warcraft and love it....

Some people play Dark Souls and love it.....

You rarely get people from those two groups hanging out together though.

I think the trick is if you're making a simple game, you need to have a feeling of steady progression for your time invested. "Farming" essentially

In the challenging games like Dark Souls, you need to make it that eventually you will make it over that hurdle and get a big chunk of progression and euphoria all at once.

It's like the difference between sipping sodas all day or doing Heroin once a week. I like the Heroin