The best game example of simple to complex is go. Just a handful of rules and the results can lead to complex and deep game play. It is side effects of the simple that creates the complex.
Now think about how many mmoRPGs would make a game complex. Add complex game mechanics and/or user interface. Rules upon Rules which make it complex. I don't believe people want that in an mmoRPG. Now interesting side effects, well, we already know that players will exploit any advantage and if you could design simple rules that lead to many interesting side effects, you just might have something there.
Also, some people look at depth as meaningful choices. I believe they mean I want N choices with N great results. They don't want N choices with a mix of good/average/bad results. Having all N choices have great results is uninteresting (boring?).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There are some games I like but when I log in it just feels like to much to go through to start playing again. The relearning curve feels just to high. I just want to continue the quest line or explore or kill stuff.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Like Kyleran, I've been playing EVE for some time (10+ years), and it's certainly a game that can be called complex. I love that there is so much to learn and so much to do; I very much appreciate logging in and saying to myself: "what do feel like doing today?". So complexity is something that I enjoy in my games if it is done right.
On the other hand, I've been playing Combat Arms (an FPS that is far from complex) since open beta. I believe I've been playing for close to 7 years if I had to guess, so for me it doesn't really matter one way or the other. I enjoy both simple and complex games, but I do like to have both options available.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
What is says to me is you can't make a choice without complete information.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
You sound like you over think simplicity. Gaming is not rocket science.
What is says to me is you can't make a choice without complete information.
Well in a game like EvE you kind of need to have a really good understanding of game systems in order to nt waste a lot of time or money.
It is not like WoW where specing wrong is solved in about five minutes even at max level.
But that is not the point... The point (and i agree) is that any game that force the player to either blindly trust their gut instinct or seek outside help have failed as a user experience. EvE is just one of the worst offenders in this regard.
Game complexity can come in many forms, however I have yet to see an MMO that would overall be considered "complex". I do think some players of certain games get a false sense of elitism when they play a game that is mostly niche that some have labeled as being complex. If they feel pride because of that then let them. Overall I think most people dislike games due to poor design or an overall lack of fun. I don't think complexity in a game has anything to do with it.
Game complexity can come in many forms, however I have yet to see an MMO that would overall be considered "complex". I do think some players of certain games get a false sense of elitism when they play a game that is mostly niche that some have labeled as being complex. If they feel pride because of that then let them. Overall I think most people dislike games due to poor design or an overall lack of fun. I don't think complexity in a game has anything to do with it.
It's not about pride or elitism, it's about enjoying a complex game that keeps you coming back for more.
I would say posts like only illustrate a definite case of some sort of inferiority complex that is completely unnecessary. If you only enjoy simple games, there's nothing wrong with that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
A came can be complex if the complex gameplay is still fun. EVE is a nice example because it showcases good and bad complex systems - the economic system is very complex, but the gameplay is still interesting and rewarding. EVE combat, however, is complex as far as managing a large fleet, but absolute crap in terms of interesting gameplay.
Right now I am playing FFXIV and I think that all of the classes in this game also fall on either end of the extreme. You are either managing multiple self buffs and enemy debuffs with lots of off GCD cooldowns, or your class is faceroll boring. Neither are enjoyable to me - particularly the focus on off GCD cooldowns to make up for the games stupid long 2.5 GCD. It is not a good tradeoff and makes for really crappy gameplay.
Another issue of "complexity" would be ability bloat. Always a sign of lazy/poor developing, it accidentally makes games more "complex" by giving players too many buttons to manage. I don't want to keep track of 30 damn buttons just to play correctly, if you can't cut it down under 24 gtfo.
Game complexity can come in many forms, however I have yet to see an MMO that would overall be considered "complex". I do think some players of certain games get a false sense of elitism when they play a game that is mostly niche that some have labeled as being complex. If they feel pride because of that then let them. Overall I think most people dislike games due to poor design or an overall lack of fun. I don't think complexity in a game has anything to do with it.
It's not about pride or elitism, it's about enjoying a complex game that keeps you coming back for more.
I would say posts like only illustrate a definite case of some sort of inferiority complex that is completely unnecessary. If you only enjoy simple games, there's nothing wrong with that.
I agree. Also if you feel a game is complex there is nothing wrong with that either.
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
What is says to me is you can't make a choice without complete information.
I shouldn't be expected to make a choice without complete information. Providing me with the information to make choices is one of the jobs of the game designer.
Obscure game reference time: Did you ever see any video footage of the Zelda games on the CDi? Two of them had rooms that were pitch black, and you had to use a torch to get through them. If you ran out of fuel, the room went pitch black and you were SOL unless you could guess your way accurately to an exit point. If you couldn't, you would die. Think about that. Would you consider that good game design? Is it fair to lose time or progress due to a lack of information needed to make choices? If you say "No", then that's kind of hypocritical since your assertion is that I'm unreasonable in wanting information needed to make choices.
There's a certain subset of gamers that like trial-and-error in their games. They want to learn how to play the game by making a whole lot of incorrect choices until they figure it out. Dark Souls players are largely of that mentality. And that's fine; I'm not attacking that style of play. Am I the target audience for EVE? Not really, because being asked to make choices over and over until I eventually find the sweet spot isn't my cup of tea. If that's your thing then more power to you.
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
You sound like you over think simplicity. Gaming is not rocket science.
For many people playing games is simply a matter of either liking it or not liking it, and that's perfectly valid. I'm the kind of person that likes to look at what I like and don't like about games and why I do or don't like those elements. So yes, I do think very critically and academically about the games I play. I find that it makes me better equipped to judge future games and how interested I am in them with less time invested. That's just me, but it is what it is.
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
Really? I quit specifically because I felt I had mastered the game and it had nothing it could offer me. Eve is notoriously difficult to learn but very simple once you get into it.
It is hard for me to think someone hasn't mastered the game in 6 years. I've played it for 3 years and I thought I knew most of what I could know about the game after just one year. You must be playing for other reasons or you don't play that often.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
If the game design just goes all over the place looking like some amateur put it together then it is not fun or good no matter how complex or not.
One idea i can't stand in games is mats that are worded so ridiculous that nobody has a clue what it is used for and a few games have done thins Tabula Rasa was one of them comes to mind.
Usually for me at least,simplicity completely ruins the game for me because they are usually simple because no effort was puit into the game at all,again just a mess of ideas tossed together and called a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It just depends on the kind of complexity. IMO spreadsheets for DPS calculations (as mentioned in #2) is not complex at all for me. I'd rather have complex mechanics where there's no real class balance and you have to mix & match your party. Where you have quest/boss chains (latter in FFXI and old L2) and an in-depth crafting crafting system.
Game complexity can come in many forms, however I have yet to see an MMO that would overall be considered "complex". I do think some players of certain games get a false sense of elitism when they play a game that is mostly niche that some have labeled as being complex. If they feel pride because of that then let them. Overall I think most people dislike games due to poor design or an overall lack of fun. I don't think complexity in a game has anything to do with it.
It's not about pride or elitism, it's about enjoying a complex game that keeps you coming back for more.
I would say posts like only illustrate a definite case of some sort of inferiority complex that is completely unnecessary. If you only enjoy simple games, there's nothing wrong with that.
No, he's right. People take pride in mastering complex or complicated games and the same people usually insist complexity is the same as depth.
These are the same sort of nitwits who think the more skillbars they have on their screen the deeper the game is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Certain people would get turned off by complexity but certain others do love it. I don't think that part actually influence numbers as much as some people seems to think.
But a bad UI is a different matter, a complex game with a good UI can be a joy to play while a simple game with a bad UI actually can be both harder and more annoying to learn.
So if you make a complex game you need to put a bit extra work into the UI and make a good tutorial.
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
Really? I quit specifically because I felt I had mastered the game and it had nothing it could offer me. Eve is notoriously difficult to learn but very simple once you get into it.
It is hard for me to think someone hasn't mastered the game in 6 years. I've played it for 3 years and I thought I knew most of what I could know about the game after just one year. You must be playing for other reasons or you don't play that often.
Eve isn't really that difficult a game to play, it has plenty of depth of course, and the skills system covers the different areas of play fairly well, it does after all allow for a great deal of scope in what those different types of play actually are, the only limiting factor in a sense being the players themselves, the 'complexity' in the game is really just how you interact with the other players, because there is no set clear goal that everyone is striving for, trying to understand everything would be like juggling cats.
Game complexity can come in many forms, however I have yet to see an MMO that would overall be considered "complex". I do think some players of certain games get a false sense of elitism when they play a game that is mostly niche that some have labeled as being complex. If they feel pride because of that then let them. Overall I think most people dislike games due to poor design or an overall lack of fun. I don't think complexity in a game has anything to do with it.
It's not about pride or elitism, it's about enjoying a complex game that keeps you coming back for more.
I would say posts like only illustrate a definite case of some sort of inferiority complex that is completely unnecessary. If you only enjoy simple games, there's nothing wrong with that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Eve isn't really that difficult a game to play, it has plenty of depth of course, and the skills system covers the different areas of play fairly well, it does after all allow for a great deal of scope in what those different types of play actually are, the only limiting factor in a sense being the players themselves, the 'complexity' in the game is really just how you interact with the other players, because there is no set clear goal that everyone is striving for, trying to understand everything would be like juggling cats.
I know better than to buy what you're saying. Did you see I said I played the game for 3 years?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Now think about how many mmoRPGs would make a game complex. Add complex game mechanics and/or user interface. Rules upon Rules which make it complex. I don't believe people want that in an mmoRPG. Now interesting side effects, well, we already know that players will exploit any advantage and if you could design simple rules that lead to many interesting side effects, you just might have something there.
Also, some people look at depth as meaningful choices. I believe they mean I want N choices with N great results. They don't want N choices with a mix of good/average/bad results. Having all N choices have great results is uninteresting (boring?).
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It's possible to get over that hump either through a lot of patience or by consulting outside resources, but the initial hump is the biggest hurdle.
What that says to me is that the complexity of a game's systems (the obfuscation of choice and consequence, by my definition) is not an insurmountable obstacle. Some people with a very strong focus and a strong drive to understand the game will get passed that point. This is well and good for those players, but it's bad for everyone else. I'm not making an argument about mass-market appeal or how developers should or shouldn't make games easier to understand. I'm not proposing that every game should lack complexity for the sake of the new player experience. All I'm suggesting is that complexity creates a very clear hurdle that has to be overcome. In the case of EVE I believe this hurdle was planned and understood and baked right into the design, so good for them. The problem is developers that lack talent and lack understanding either creating accidental complexity or deliberately creating complexity because they think it can replace depth.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Which specific developers make this claim? The only people I have heard saying this is players in forums.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
What is says to me is you can't make a choice without complete information.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Well in a game like EvE you kind of need to have a really good understanding of game systems in order to nt waste a lot of time or money.
It is not like WoW where specing wrong is solved in about five minutes even at max level.
But that is not the point... The point (and i agree) is that any game that force the player to either blindly trust their gut instinct or seek outside help have failed as a user experience. EvE is just one of the worst offenders in this regard.
This have been a good conversation
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I would say posts like only illustrate a definite case of some sort of inferiority complex that is completely unnecessary. If you only enjoy simple games, there's nothing wrong with that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Right now I am playing FFXIV and I think that all of the classes in this game also fall on either end of the extreme. You are either managing multiple self buffs and enemy debuffs with lots of off GCD cooldowns, or your class is faceroll boring. Neither are enjoyable to me - particularly the focus on off GCD cooldowns to make up for the games stupid long 2.5 GCD. It is not a good tradeoff and makes for really crappy gameplay.
Another issue of "complexity" would be ability bloat. Always a sign of lazy/poor developing, it accidentally makes games more "complex" by giving players too many buttons to manage. I don't want to keep track of 30 damn buttons just to play correctly, if you can't cut it down under 24 gtfo.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Obscure game reference time: Did you ever see any video footage of the Zelda games on the CDi? Two of them had rooms that were pitch black, and you had to use a torch to get through them. If you ran out of fuel, the room went pitch black and you were SOL unless you could guess your way accurately to an exit point. If you couldn't, you would die. Think about that. Would you consider that good game design? Is it fair to lose time or progress due to a lack of information needed to make choices? If you say "No", then that's kind of hypocritical since your assertion is that I'm unreasonable in wanting information needed to make choices.
There's a certain subset of gamers that like trial-and-error in their games. They want to learn how to play the game by making a whole lot of incorrect choices until they figure it out. Dark Souls players are largely of that mentality. And that's fine; I'm not attacking that style of play. Am I the target audience for EVE? Not really, because being asked to make choices over and over until I eventually find the sweet spot isn't my cup of tea. If that's your thing then more power to you.
It is hard for me to think someone hasn't mastered the game in 6 years. I've played it for 3 years and I thought I knew most of what I could know about the game after just one year. You must be playing for other reasons or you don't play that often.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If the game design just goes all over the place looking like some amateur put it together then it is not fun or good no matter how complex or not.
One idea i can't stand in games is mats that are worded so ridiculous that nobody has a clue what it is used for and a few games have done thins Tabula Rasa was one of them comes to mind.
Usually for me at least,simplicity completely ruins the game for me because they are usually simple because no effort was puit into the game at all,again just a mess of ideas tossed together and called a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
These are the same sort of nitwits who think the more skillbars they have on their screen the deeper the game is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
But a bad UI is a different matter, a complex game with a good UI can be a joy to play while a simple game with a bad UI actually can be both harder and more annoying to learn.
So if you make a complex game you need to put a bit extra work into the UI and make a good tutorial.
You stay sassy!
Or is that that some need the ego stroking?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky