How do you solve the Group problem?

ste2000

Right........I was reading a very interesting post here.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/442364/a-good-grouping-game-must-create-good-groups/p1
The OP makes very good points about why making a Group friendly MMO is not such an easier feature after all.
I strongly suggest you read that post to understand better what I am trying to achieve with this one.

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.
I don't have anything against people that like more solo friendly MMOs, I  believed everyone should have a game tailored to them.
So this post is not about Group MMOs vs Solo MMOs.
But unfortunately (for me) today, the Solo friendly MMOs far outnumber the Group friendly ones, and the few games that put more emphasis on Group don't do a great job at it.
So I play MMO to play with groups of people, that is my play-style, having said that I too get frustrated when I can't get a group to run a dungeon or complete a difficult quest.
So the challenges of finding a group doesn't affect only solo oriented players but particularly people who actually prefer to group.
If I can't group, I won't play, and that's a problem.
No wonder players do not like the so called "forced" group, sometimes finding a Group is a game in itself.

The solution though is not having a Dungeon Finder, because as everyone knows, it creates even more problems (people becomes disconnected with the game).
I believe that the biggest problem with the group system as we know it is the stiff Trinity Mechanics.
Don't get me wrong, the Trinity is essential for me to enjoy group content (the essence of Role Play is playing a role), but the design of this mechanics is as old as EQ (possibly D&D) and never really evolved.
The problem is that in general DPS far outnumber Healers and Tanks, making it difficult to make groups.
In a way it is understandable, those two roles are far more demanding than any DPS class, if you do a mistake people will point fingers at you, and that's extra stress most people do not want.

So how do you correct this problem?
There are few ways to do it:

1) You are what you wear
Basically instead of having classes set in stone, based on traditional skill advancement, your class is dictated by the equipment you are wearing.
A good example is Warframe, it is not a MMORPG but if you play it (it is free) you understand what I mean.
So if a group is looking for a Healer to start and you are wearing your Sorcerer outfit, you put the healer gear on and you can fill that vacancy.
This is a bit immersion sensitive, but I believe the benefits far outnumber the cons.

2) Dual Specs Classes
Few games tried this approach but it was always half baked.
WoW for example offer dual Specs but ironically don't actually help the cause of group finding.
What it does is to allow Tanks and Healers to be viable DPS, unfortunately it doesn't allow the opposite which is DPS classes that can turn into Healers or Tanks.
It doesn't have to be immersion breaker either.
A paladin for example can be both a Knight (Tank) or a Cleric (Healer)
A Necromancer can be both a Lich (Tank) or a Summoner (DPS)
A Sorcerer can be both a Wizard (DPS) or an Acolyte (Healer)
And so on.

3) Hire a Merc
I know what you are thinking, it has already been done.
But in my version you impersonate the Merc, so it is not the game that controls it but it is you.
Nobody in their right mind would trust an NPC Healing your group.
Only one Merc character per group will be allowed and the effect would last around 2 hours which should be enough to complete any content.
Other restrictions might apply to avoid turning the game into a PvE MOBA.
This system needs a bit more thought than the other two I suggested but if is well implemented and balanced it could be the best compromise.

Of course there are other reasons why people don't like Group focused MMOs, it could be the content, it could be the mechanics of the game, other  people simply don't like to Group.
But I believe that if the industry doesn't address issues that concern players that actually like to group, group centric MMOs will progressivelly become more rare, which is a shame.

So what are your thoughts guys?
Do you think any of those suggestions might help making MMOs more group friendly?

nariusseldon

ste2000 said:

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.

who are "we"? I don't play MMO to play with people. I play MMO because some have good gameplay & IP.

Solution .. easy. Make it optional with LFD, and a chat channel, and solo content. 

Those whose
- want to solo ... solo
- want to click a button into a PUG group, hit the LFD 
- want to social .. go into chat channel and spent ages putting groups together.

Options are good. No one can force other to play in ways they do not like. 

sunandshadow

ste2000 said:

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.

No no and hell no I do NOT play MMOs to play directly with other people.

Quizzical

The solution that I'd propose is that the game have no pure DPS classes.  Rather, all classes do about the same DPS.  The role difference between classes is what else the class does.  Some classes can DPS and tank.  Some can DPS and heal.  Some can DPS and buff allies.  Some can DPS and crowd control.  Throw in DPS and whatever other role you want.  Maybe some classes can DPS and fill more than one other role, but not as well as a class that is purely focused on one other role.

This way, there can't be a glut of unwanted DPS players, as there wouldn't be any pure DPS players.  Actually, there probably would be some that wanted to be pure DPS and disregard their other role, but they'd be idiots, unwanted because they're dead weight in a group, not because of their class.

ste2000

@nariusseldon and @sunandshadow

I don't think neither of you read my post until the end.

"ste2000 said:

I don't have anything against people that like more solo friendly MMOs, I  believed everyone should have a game tailored to them.
So this post is not about Group MMOs vs Solo MMOs."


You obviously are part of this category

"ste2000 said:

Of course there are other reasons why people don't like Group focused MMOs, it could be the content, it could be the mechanics of the game, other  people simply don't like to Group."

This post is obviously not meant to you, you can keep playing whatever games you are playing, I am not trying to change your minds.
As I said some people just don't like to group, and I respect that.
Though personally I don't get it.

neonaka

@ste2000 - You can never solve this problem now, because the majority of the genre today are made up of these "who are "we"? I don't play MMO to play with people. I play MMO because some have good gameplay & IP." and "No no and hell no I do NOT play MMOs to play directly with other people."

Back in the day developers designed and made MMO's with the MM part in mind. Todays MMO's should be renamed to MASORPG or MASOG's. Massive Anti-Social Online Games. Good luck playing Everquest or DAoC or FF11 solo. I mean you could but you were going to struggle and you would never have anything but mediocre gear in those games without support from guilds or players. Gone are the days of adventure and socialization. Sure there are a few out there still. Eve Online really benefits and almost forces corp. or grouping to be safe as an example (though you are never really safe) but those games are far and few between. 

I am not really sure when MMO gaming went down hill like it did. People will say it was due to that generation of gamers getting older and not having the time to devote 20 hours a day camping spawns, People will say WoW ruined it all with streamlined themepark on rails style gaming opening the genres to everyone from the 6 yr old xbox kids to the 90 yr old grannies, People will say developers stopped caring about making quality games in exchange for the quick dollar in their pockets. 

Maybe it all of these or maybe it is none of them, but to answer your question, it will never be that way again and it is kinda sad. 

ste2000

Quizzical said:

The solution that I'd propose is that the game have no pure DPS classes.  Rather, all classes do about the same DPS.  The role difference between classes is what else the class does.  Some classes can DPS and tank.  Some can DPS and heal.  Some can DPS and buff allies.  Some can DPS and crowd control.  Throw in DPS and whatever other role you want.  Maybe some classes can DPS and fill more than one other role, but not as well as a class that is purely focused on one other role.

This way, there can't be a glut of unwanted DPS players, as there wouldn't be any pure DPS players.  Actually, there probably would be some that wanted to be pure DPS and disregard their other role, but they'd be idiots, unwanted because they're dead weight in a group, not because of their class.

So that would be number 2

I was inclined on that one as well, Dual Class is easy to implement and if the classes are designed right it shouldn't be immersion breaking.
As I said, if a Paladin can either be a Knight or a Cleric doesn't really break the Lore does it?
A Paladin is already a mix of both, but in this case he can chose to be one of the 2 and be more effective in his chosen role rather than be the Jack of all trades and good at none he usually is.

nariusseldon

neonaka said:

I am not really sure when MMO gaming went down hill like it did. People will say it was due to that generation of gamers getting older and not having the time to devote 20 hours a day camping spawns, People will say WoW ruined it all with streamlined themepark on rails style gaming opening the genres to everyone from the 6 yr old xbox kids to the 90 yr old grannies, People will say developers stopped caring about making quality games in exchange for the quick dollar in their pockets. 

What you miss is that "went down hill" is subjective. What happened is that MMO devs figure out they actually don't want to cater to the MMO veterans ... they would rather cater to those who want to solo, and don't mind toxic community.

For the larger market, is a time with new games, and growth. 

Devs still care ... they just don't care about your preferences. 

Kyleran

nariusseldon said:

neonaka said:

I am not really sure when MMO gaming went down hill like it did. People will say it was due to that generation of gamers getting older and not having the time to devote 20 hours a day camping spawns, People will say WoW ruined it all with streamlined themepark on rails style gaming opening the genres to everyone from the 6 yr old xbox kids to the 90 yr old grannies, People will say developers stopped caring about making quality games in exchange for the quick dollar in their pockets. 

What you miss is that "went down hill" is subjective. What happened is that MMO devs figure out they actually don't want to cater to the MMO veterans ... they would rather cater to those who want to solo, and don't mind toxic community.

For the larger market, is a time with new games, and growth. 

Devs still care ... they just don't care about your preferences. 

You are right, once developers figured out the easiest way to extract money from the masses they stuck to that path.

But you are wrong....quality is not at all subjective.

sunandshadow

ste2000 said:

@nariusseldon and @sunandshadow

I don't think neither of you read my post until the end.

"ste2000 said:

I don't have anything against people that like more solo friendly MMOs, I  believed everyone should have a game tailored to them.
So this post is not about Group MMOs vs Solo MMOs."


You obviously are part of this category

"ste2000 said:

Of course there are other reasons why people don't like Group focused MMOs, it could be the content, it could be the mechanics of the game, other  people simply don't like to Group."

This post is obviously not meant to you, you can keep playing whatever games you are playing, I am not trying to change your minds.
As I said some people just don't like to group, and I respect that.
Though personally I don't get it.

You made a sweeping generalization which was clearly false and said that you don't understand why it would be false.  We responded because we want you to understand it, since it is definitely false for us.  No one enjoys having others not acknowledge or understand their existence, and it's generally a helpful thing to do to post explaining something someone says they don't understand.  I don't have any problem with you liking group-focused MMOs or wanting to talk specifically about their design; that's a good thing to make a thread about.  And if you had put at the beginning, "This thread is about designing group-focused MMOs" or if you had phrased your statement about "we play MMOs because..." to specify that those who like group-focused MMOs play them because they want to play with other players, then I wouldn't have been irritated or replied to express that irritation.  But I do have a problem with anyone remaining clueless about why some people prefer solo-focused MMOs.  If you're going to think about and discuss game design, it's important to understand the different types of players and why they like different things.

Pepeq

The *group* problem is the fact that 99% of the player base wants to pew pew dps and only 1% wants to tank or heal... hence the removal of the trinity in GW2.  And yet people cried because it lacked a trinity.  In other words, they couldn't handle the utter chaos of pure dps in an instance.

There are plenty of MMOs that have classes that are essentially every role all wrapped up into a single toon.  Again, this hasn't changed the problem at hand... everyone still just wants to dps.

There are also plenty of MMOs employing the artificial toon as your side kick.  Some have as many as 4 running around with you... you have your group and you can dps to your hearts content because the bots will tank and heal for you.  This gets boring because it's obvious you can never fail under this scheme, so why even bother?

So in a nutshell, the *group* problem is a misdirect.  It's easy to point the finger at not being able to find a group but in reality there are ample opportunities to group... too many in fact.  All it has done has made everyone with they were on a server all by themselves so that they don't have to compete with others for rare spawns, achievements, et al.

goboygo

nariusseldon said:

ste2000 said:

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.

who are "we"? I don't play MMO to play with people. I play MMO because some have good gameplay & IP.

Solution .. easy. Make it optional with LFD, and a chat channel, and solo content. 

Those whose
- want to solo ... solo
- want to click a button into a PUG group, hit the LFD 
- want to social .. go into chat channel and spent ages putting groups together.

Options are good. No one can force other to play in ways they do not like. 

"I don't play MMO's to play with people"

Uhh okay.

Quizzical

ste2000 said:

Quizzical said:

The solution that I'd propose is that the game have no pure DPS classes.  Rather, all classes do about the same DPS.  The role difference between classes is what else the class does.  Some classes can DPS and tank.  Some can DPS and heal.  Some can DPS and buff allies.  Some can DPS and crowd control.  Throw in DPS and whatever other role you want.  Maybe some classes can DPS and fill more than one other role, but not as well as a class that is purely focused on one other role.

This way, there can't be a glut of unwanted DPS players, as there wouldn't be any pure DPS players.  Actually, there probably would be some that wanted to be pure DPS and disregard their other role, but they'd be idiots, unwanted because they're dead weight in a group, not because of their class.

So that would be number 2

I was inclined on that one as well, Dual Class is easy to implement and if the classes are designed right it shouldn't be immersion breaking.
As I said, if a Paladin can either be a Knight or a Cleric doesn't really break the Lore does it?
A Paladin is already a mix of both, but in this case he can chose to be one of the 2 and be more effective in his chosen role rather than be the Jack of all trades and good at none he usually is.

You're proposing that a healer DPS class be given the option whether he wants to focus on being a healer or being DPS.  In that way, you still end up with some healer players and DPS players, and that they happen to be the same class is irrelevant.

I'm proposing just the opposite.  For a healer DPS class, don't give a player choices whether to be spec as a healer or as DPS.  You can give a player plenty of choices of, do you want to be better at healing this way or that way.  Or do you want to be better at DPS this way or that way.  But never a choice of do you want to be better at healing or do you want to be better at DPS.

You could still have specialization points, but those points are earmarked for a healing tree or a DPS tree.  You could still have gear with stats, but some gear slots are earmarked for damage stats and others for healing stats.

If you make it impossible for a player to focus on DPS to the exclusion of all else, and thereby crippling is other, "real" role, you won't have a glut of players who do exactly that for soloing purposes and are thus undesired in a group.

ste2000

sunandshadow said:

ste2000 said:

You made a sweeping generalization which was clearly false and said that you don't understand why it would be false.  We responded because we want you to understand it, since it is definitely false for us. 

But you still didn't finish reading the whole thread, apparently.
What you don't get is the the post wasn't aimed at you.
If you cared to read it, (probably) you will understand it is aimed at people that like to group, that's why I said "we".
This post is about how to make MMO more group friendly for people that already like to group.

Read the posts carefully before deciding to chip in.

sunandshadow

ste2000 said:

sunandshadow said:

You made a sweeping generalization which was clearly false and said that you don't understand why it would be false.  We responded because we want you to understand it, since it is definitely false for us. 

But you still didn't finish reading the whole thread, apparently.
What you don't get is the the post wasn't aimed at you.
If you cared to read it, (probably) you will understand it is aimed at people that like to group, that's why I said "we".
This post is about how to make MMO more group friendly for people that already like to group.

Read the posts carefully before deciding to chip in.

You didn't write the first post clearly, with all your info in the right order.  That's why you are getting people responding in an irritated hurry without reading the whole thing.  Just do it better next time and this problem won't occur, that's all.

ste2000

sunandshadow said:

ste2000 said:

You didn't write the first post clearly, with all your info in the right order.  That's why you are getting people responding in an irritated hurry without reading the whole thing.  Just do it better next time and this problem won't occur, that's all.

Hey don't blame me if you read only 10% of the post.
I know it is a bit long and for people with not much patience is a bit of a struggle, but if its too much of a bother you should just ignore it and move on.
Reading just part of it and making assumptions doesn't give you solid basis for a intelligent discussion.

iixviiiix

Solve group problem ? go mob grind .
Share able contents is key of good group game.

Albatroes

To solve the grouping problem, you must first make 4-5 threads about the problem of grouping.....I blame WoW for everyone thinking their thoughts are special enough to make a bunch of different threads on the same topic...

Axehilt

What group problem?  Modern MMORPGs have streamlined groups for a while now, resulting in convenient, fun grouping gameplay.

If there's a problem it's in combat quality, as nobody has managed to surpass WOW's combat design and combat is actually what you're doing while grouping so it's a huge part of grouping being fun.  Several MMORPGs have had fun enough combat design to be worth playing for a while, so it's not like WOW's the only game that's managed to have good grouping (otherwise we couldn't say the problem was solved.)  But when you look at CoH, ESO, FFXIV, RIFT, and a few others, they were all good fun to group in and there wasn't any "problem" to grouping.

Admittedly a few MMORPGs slip up now and then too (SWTOR's awful group-conversations) but for the most part the failure tends to be lousy combat rather than grouping itself.

azzamasin

ste2000 said:

Right........I was reading a very interesting post here.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/442364/a-good-grouping-game-must-create-good-groups/p1
The OP makes very good points about why making a Group friendly MMO is not such an easier feature after all.
I strongly suggest you read that post to understand better what I am trying to achieve with this one.

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.
I don't have anything against people that like more solo friendly MMOs, I  believed everyone should have a game tailored to them.
So this post is not about Group MMOs vs Solo MMOs.
But unfortunately (for me) today, the Solo friendly MMOs far outnumber the Group friendly ones, and the few games that put more emphasis on Group don't do a great job at it.
So I play MMO to play with groups of people, that is my play-style, having said that I too get frustrated when I can't get a group to run a dungeon or complete a difficult quest.
So the challenges of finding a group doesn't affect only solo oriented players but particularly people who actually prefer to group.
If I can't group, I won't play, and that's a problem.
No wonder players do not like the so called "forced" group, sometimes finding a Group is a game in itself.

The solution though is not having a Dungeon Finder, because as everyone knows, it creates even more problems (people becomes disconnected with the game).
I believe that the biggest problem with the group system as we know it is the stiff Trinity Mechanics.
Don't get me wrong, the Trinity is essential for me to enjoy group content (the essence of Role Play is playing a role), but the design of this mechanics is as old as EQ (possibly D&D) and never really evolved.
The problem is that in general DPS far outnumber Healers and Tanks, making it difficult to make groups.
In a way it is understandable, those two roles are far more demanding than any DPS class, if you do a mistake people will point fingers at you, and that's extra stress most people do not want.

So how do you correct this problem?
There are few ways to do it:

1) You are what you wear
Basically instead of having classes set in stone, based on traditional skill advancement, your class is dictated by the equipment you are wearing.
A good example is Warframe, it is not a MMORPG but if you play it (it is free) you understand what I mean.
So if a group is looking for a Healer to start and you are wearing your Sorcerer outfit, you put the healer gear on and you can fill that vacancy.
This is a bit immersion sensitive, but I believe the benefits far outnumber the cons.

2) Dual Specs Classes
Few games tried this approach but it was always half baked.
WoW for example offer dual Specs but ironically don't actually help the cause of group finding.
What it does is to allow Tanks and Healers to be viable DPS, unfortunately it doesn't allow the opposite which is DPS classes that can turn into Healers or Tanks.
It doesn't have to be immersion breaker either.
A paladin for example can be both a Knight (Tank) or a Cleric (Healer)
A Necromancer can be both a Lich (Tank) or a Summoner (DPS)
A Sorcerer can be both a Wizard (DPS) or an Acolyte (Healer)
And so on.

3) Hire a Merc
I know what you are thinking, it has already been done.
But in my version you impersonate the Merc, so it is not the game that controls it but it is you.
Nobody in their right mind would trust an NPC Healing your group.
Only one Merc character per group will be allowed and the effect would last around 2 hours which should be enough to complete any content.
Other restrictions might apply to avoid turning the game into a PvE MOBA.
This system needs a bit more thought than the other two I suggested but if is well implemented and balanced it could be the best compromise.

Of course there are other reasons why people don't like Group focused MMOs, it could be the content, it could be the mechanics of the game, other  people simply don't like to Group.
But I believe that if the industry doesn't address issues that concern players that actually like to group, group centric MMOs will progressivelly become more rare, which is a shame.

So what are your thoughts guys?
Do you think any of those suggestions might help making MMOs more group friendly?

Speak for yourself, I play MMO's (or did) to play Alongside others to create an immersive game play setting that single player RPG's can not deliver.

I got started in this genre way back in 1999 with Asheron's Call, the first MMO that prioritized being able to play the game in a solo way.  If I want to group, and I assure you that I do, I want to do so with players I know, trust and have a bond with, I.E. friends.  Being forced to group to level like in DAoC was the primary reason I lasted only 2 years there, whereas I played games like AC and WoW with large solo opportunities for 14+ years.

ste2000

azzamasin said:

Speak for yourself, I play MMO's (or did) to play Alongside others to create an immersive game play setting that single player RPG's can not deliver.

I am speaking for myself.
In fact if you care to read the whole post you understand that the post is not about Solo vs Group play.
It is trying to address the problems of Group focused MMOs that managed to alienate even people who like to group like myself, because of their archaic design.

I say to you what I said to the other 2 distracted readers, read everything before posting.
If you can't be bothered to read what people has to say, you shouldn't really comment.
I bet you just stopped at this sentence and decide to fire off your fingers without reading anything else:

ste2000 said:

I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not ALONGSIDE people.

Am I right?

nariusseldon

Kyleran said:

But you are wrong....quality is not at all subjective.

If you are talking about graphics rendering, stability of code ... yes. If you talk about design .... no.

Even graphics ..art is subjective.

Otherwise, i will view any game with excess walking, down-time, waiting for boats, without LFD feature .. as low quality. I am sure you do not agree. So now that becomes preferences. 

Eronakis

In theory I have already solved this answer. You have to reinvent the trinity game play by not devaluing distinct roles, change the over all core game play, redefine the tanking role and not making healing a necessity but a commodity. The trick is in how you design combat mechanics to give other options to defense rather than a tanking class and to a healing class, but not at the same time omitting those class roles. To encourage grouping without the endless wait time is to simply allow any class comp to have an opportunity to survive with or without a tank or a healer class. Simply put, the players have to adapt to that encounter and potentially have to play differently to survive if those roles are not available at the time.

Please refer to my thread, "Reinventing the Trinity Game Play" Here: http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/442172/reinventing-the-trinity-gameplay/p1

But if course this response will get swiped under the rug because no one wants to hear a viable solution that makes sense.

ste2000

@Eronakis

You are describing GW2 unless I missed something.
In GW2 you have classes that can heal and other that can tank better, but they are watered down version of the Trinity.
In the end players end up in a zerg fest, it is way more convenient.

Eronakis

Quizzical said:

The solution that I'd propose is that the game have no pure DPS classes.  Rather, all classes do about the same DPS.  The role difference between classes is what else the class does.  Some classes can DPS and tank.  Some can DPS and heal.  Some can DPS and buff allies.  Some can DPS and crowd control.  Throw in DPS and whatever other role you want.  Maybe some classes can DPS and fill more than one other role, but not as well as a class that is purely focused on one other role.

This way, there can't be a glut of unwanted DPS players, as there wouldn't be any pure DPS players.  Actually, there probably would be some that wanted to be pure DPS and disregard their other role, but they'd be idiots, unwanted because they're dead weight in a group, not because of their class.

This is actually another way of solving the group issue for the majority. It's not a bad idea, however, you will still find players wanting to have certain roles in group and won't group unless those certain roles are in group. I do believe this is the best way for the traditional trinity game play. But it doesn't entirely solve the grouping issue. 

Ledrir

I like to group and I like the trinity division of classes.  I am looking for a game that encourages grouping and working with other people.  I would recommend that the game have incentives to encourage people to group.  If players advance from experience or some other way then give an increased bonus for each person in the group.  The game could still allow solo play but just make it where much more is gained if you group.

You could also have encounters or dungeons that would need a group or raid to complete.  I'm sure there are other ways to create incentives to group.  And I agree with the OP when he stated that he understands people like to solo but there are many games out there that are focused on allowing players to solo but there needs to be some games that focus on players who like to group.