You are describing GW2 unless I missed something. In GW2 you have classes that can heal and other that can tank better, but they are watered down version of the Trinity. In the end players end up in a zerg fest, it is way more convenient.
Please go read my thread. You will have a better understanding. My proposal of reinventing the trinity is the exact opposite of GW2. I actually have a Section in there "Negating Zerging & Focus Fire."
I would recommend that the game have incentives to encourage people to group. If players advance from experience or some other way then give an increased bonus for each person in the group. The game could still allow solo play but just make it where much more is gained if you group.
1) (class swapping) Could be a possible way to do it but not the only group related solution.
2) (Dual Specs Classes) I agree with the idea to give everyone equal "damage dealer" opportunities but an additional special role. Depending on the game the special role could be essential or non-essential to the group.
3) (Mercs/bots) Can supplement for lacking a player. Also, doesn't exactly solve the "group problem". Sure, it fills in a gap so that a group can proceed without a player/ role but it doesn't make grouping more fun. SWTOR has shown there is a difficult balance with them to keep other players relevant. In MP games sometimes they are worthwhile to make a full group possible but rarely are a good enough replacement.
Dungeon finder/ auto-group matching - Makes it really easy to form a group but no meaningful social interaction takes place. I'm not even sure if that is a persuable objective anymore in a MMORPG where people expect to play alongside but not with others.(as @neonaka pointed out)
Why do people care to have a massive (65+) numbers of players near them anyway? I find whatever, "immersion atmosphere" there to be from it rather useless if most the content is blandly solo and at trivial difficulty. So I say- grouping in MMORPGs isn't worth trying to solve. Much better for an rpg game to not be massive and be very good in the competitive/cooperative department.
I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the
core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not
ALONGSIDE people.
who are "we"? I don't play MMO to play with people. I play MMO because some have good gameplay & IP.
Solution .. easy. Make it optional with LFD, and a chat channel, and solo content.
Those whose - want to solo ... solo - want to click a button into a PUG group, hit the LFD - want to social .. go into chat channel and spent ages putting groups together.
Options are good. No one can force other to play in ways they do not like.
NO. The worst thing MOST CURRENT MMO's do is attempt to appease everyone. The ONLY real solution is for developers to stop this nonsense and make ONE game with ONE design pattern. If they cater to solo, fine. If they cater to groups, fine. The reason there are so many trash games is because they're trying too damn much and ruining it.
Whenever I start a new MMO I think, "awesome, something for me to play with my friends" and then we get in, start learning the game and all we can think is, "so when does the group content start?".
Games that allow full solo play are NOT group friendly. If you think so, then you are simply not a group minded player. Period.
NO. The worst thing MOST CURRENT MMO's do is attempt to appease everyone. The ONLY real solution is for developers to stop this nonsense and make ONE game with ONE design pattern.
Yes, you are right. They should make single player games (fallout), online games with instanced dungeons (Diablo 3), instanced pvp games (WoT, LoL) and so on.
NO. The worst thing MOST CURRENT MMO's do is attempt to appease everyone. The ONLY real solution is for developers to stop this nonsense and make ONE game with ONE design pattern.
Yes, you are right. They should make single player games (fallout), online games with instanced dungeons (Diablo 3), instanced pvp games (WoT, LoL) and so on.
and since you don't like playing with other players in an MMO you should stick with single player games and stfu, right?
Refresh my memory as to the topic of this post, because you are one confused sob.
I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the
core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not
ALONGSIDE people.
...
The problem is that in general DPS far outnumber Healers and Tanks, making it difficult to make groups. In a way it is understandable, those
two roles are far more demanding than any DPS class, if you do a
mistake people will point fingers at you, and that's extra stress most
people do not want.
Not discounting your post, or the issues raised, they are valid and something that, if solved, would improve MMOs in general. However...
1. There seems to be a lot of people that DO just want to play ALONGSIDE others. It may seem a bit weird, but there is something to be said for seeing other people doing 'random' things in an otherwise static world.
2. All your solutions are basically the same thing, i.e. allow people to play a tank / healer even if they rolled DPS, and none of them address the problem, which as you stated is that few people want to take on those roles (i.e. they will queue as DPS anyway). I also think being able to just switch classes / roles at level cap is a terrible idea as even certain players who have leveled tanks / healers are.. less than good.
Maybe it's just that I play all three roles in FFXIV but I don't really see a massive problem here, at least not one that requires the changes suggested, because, well...
1. Allowing anyone to play a role that they are not trained in is just a bad idea (and yes part of this is that the game needs to do more to train players to play well). Also, FFXIV does allow you to switch roles on a single character, as long as you've leveled it.
2. By allowing groups without a certain class composition to complete content you only discourage the use of rarer classes. Almost everyone seems to deride GW2 for all the classes being DPS with no defined role, but what do you think would happen to a trinity game if Tanks and Healers were not needed?
2.1. Without the strict structure of 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS (as an example) and the game imposing who is who, how much chaos do you think you average PUG is going to be? See: GW2
3. By being rarer, and having more responsibility, Tanks and Healers have the perk of getting groups faster (and having more power within the group ). With great power comes great responsibility, but the reverse is also true.
I'm not saying there is no problem here, it's just not THAT big, and the solution isn't a bunch crazy algorithms trying to give everyone a perfect experience. What games need to do better, a lot better in some cases, is to encourage communication, and make it easier and more natural for like minded players to 'meet'.
Entirely how this is done I'm not sure... but a group finder with a few more options like 'My Server Only', 'Favor players I like'* (commended in the FFXIV world), and possibly even 'Speed Run Only', would help.
Also, and I think this is a must, the ability to do any and all content (looking at you solo story instances) in a group. I absolutely hate having to say 'sorry, gotta drop the group so I can do my story mission'. I don't care if it trivialises solo content, that should be my choice. Going even further, players should be able to sync down (up never made much sense to me) and get partial quest rewards for helping others.
* Note that this would only be a slight weighting and could increase wait times for those that choose this option. But, it would mean that if two (or more) players are regularly on at the same time and like each other they will be grouped more frequently (than strict queue / total random), and thus have a chance to become friends.
I think more devs need to look at how CoH did this. Despite being repetitive with dungeons (buildings/caves) combat was fun. People loved playing tanks and healers and cc and dps, there were tonnes of them. Tanks loved herding, cc loved locking up a half dozen mobs, healers loved their mass heals/radiation/kinetic bursts... it was just fun.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
But a key was that any group was viable, whether you had a tank or not, or a cc or not, it was so well keyed that quite literally any group combination would work effectively to take down mobs (still some worked better than others). So no tank, who cares, we can still work. No healer, who cares, we are good. NO cc, fine we can pull..... and they all did enough damage so who cares if no dps.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
NO. The worst thing MOST CURRENT MMO's do is attempt to appease everyone. The ONLY real solution is for developers to stop this nonsense and make ONE game with ONE design pattern.
Yes, you are right. They should make single player games (fallout), online games with instanced dungeons (Diablo 3), instanced pvp games (WoT, LoL) and so on.
and since you don't like playing with other players in an MMO you should stick with single player games and stfu, right?
Why would i do that and miss out on unique gameplay and IP? Tell me, where I can play ant-man and combat with his shrinking power except on Marvel Heroes?
Or fight a klingon bird of prey and then beam down on a away mission except on STO?
@ste2000
You and I have disagreed a bit on other forum post. Here I will have to agree with you. I play MMOs to play with other people. Not all the time mind you. I am not grouped up every minute of every day I play the game. Personally this is why I say Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW had great Solo and Group based play. Yes I could solo to max level, however for me it was more enjoyable and I did this with my friends I grouped when I could to not only run instances but to run quest together. My wife and I did this back when she was leveling her druid in Vanilla WOW and I was leveling my priest. We made leveling easier and more enjoyable.
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
We don't need to completely reinvent the wheel when it comes to grouping. Basically people who want to solo should however it should be well the least beneficial way to play the game. And Premade grouping NOT LFR/LFG grouping should be the most beneficial because harder content will have the best gear and you will get gear to drop faster.
Examples of this would be the Warriors tanking chest piece in WOW. That was a long pain in the ass quest chain. Yes you had to do instances but it should push you to group and show you the benefits of grouping.
Example of Premade groups would be having Vanilla/TBC instances again which require CC (Maybe not Shadowlabs level CC but CC still) that drop Blue gear and some Epic gear like BC did. Also make loot drops selectable. Say I am a Pali Tank who can heal or DPS too with Offspecs. I can select 1 other spec that gear could drop for me as an extra piece. This is only an option with Premade groups. If a LFG tool is used, the instance is basically a mosh pit setup where players dont get anything but leveling greens and content is done just so you can see it. Its a true tourist mode. Basically has no benefit to players when it comes to gear or skill progression.
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
What you said is not the "problem". There is no "problem", only that you do not like current design.
They push LFD not because the devs want to, is because the players like it.
Premade grouping and social communities do not need to be pushed if the audience already want it. The only "problem" here is that your preferences is not what devs catering for.
I'm on the same page as the OP. I really miss playing MMO's focused on grouping because to me soloing is extremely boring and defeats the purpose of playing this style of game. If FFXI had a decent player base I'd probably go back.
I think Rift does a decent job of trying to get people to play together. All classes can play any role and can switch any time out of combat, so if you lose your tank and can't find a replacement, someone can switch roles and then just find another dps. I also like how groups auto-form when doing rifts and zone events. It's strange that nobody wants to form groups to do content but they'll flock to the zone events because it's much more fun than soloing.
Personally I'd like to see a return of dungeons that aren't group instanced, like those prevalent in DAoC. The best drops were there and you could generally find groups to invite you along. I really don't think it would be that difficult to design a game that allows solo play but encourages group play for harder content & better rewards without doing the whole dungeon finder trinity thing.
I think more devs need to look at how CoH did this. Despite being repetitive with dungeons (buildings/caves) combat was fun. People loved playing tanks and healers and cc and dps, there were tonnes of them. Tanks loved herding, cc loved locking up a half dozen mobs, healers loved their mass heals/radiation/kinetic bursts... it was just fun.
But a key was that any group was viable, whether you had a tank or not, or a cc or not, it was so well keyed that quite literally any group combination would work effectively to take down mobs (still some worked better than others). So no tank, who cares, we can still work. No healer, who cares, we are good. NO cc, fine we can pull..... and they all did enough damage so who cares if no dps.
This works for games like UO where players would kill stuff like Champion spawns where 20+ people would just show up and kill stuff then kill the champion. It does not work though for games with instances.
The KEY to fixing Grouping with instances is to stop making them part of the end game treadmill and make it it's own set of progression. AND the only way to do that is bring in CC no more AOE tanking and no LFG tools. Now a group Finder tool where I could list myself looking for a group and people contact me. But no random match making. Random Match Making is a core problem to grouping today. Random Match making is great for mash button instances just to see the instance. It is not good for anything that requires Teamwork. Teamwork is the core to any group activity.
So Trinity is NEEDED. The key with Trinity is 2 fold. First Encourage Premades and Encourage them to play together vs jumping ship. Next thing make classes different from each other but still make instances doable with any mix of Tank, Healer, or DPS/Support classes. For example one of my BRD runs we had a Ret Pali who Off Tanked for me, I tanked, my wife healed, my friend James was the mage who also CCed and my other friend played a Rogue. Another group I ran with I healed, my friend Tim Tanked, Rick DPSed on a Lock which also gave us CC, My wife did Balance, and James again was our Mage. We could manage with any mixture of the trinity. Why? Because the groups were not so hard that it took a strict Trinity group to have equal CCs, with a tank and healer. We could OT sometimes, we could CC more others. We had short and long CCs.
Done right, like Vanilla WOW and TBC did (This is coming from someone who already played 4 other MMOs before WOW came around AND was in MMOs 6 years before WOW) Grouping and Trinity works. You dont need Pre-WOW stuff and you dont need Whack a mole content like we have today. BALANCE is the key and what well got right. Ya 40 mans were hell but hard raids with around 10 people its doable. That could offset the 40 man stuff. Or Scale raids to allow us to bring more than 10 people. Or make a raid a hard 10 core players trinity base then the others could be what ever they wanted.
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
What you said is not the "problem". There is no "problem", only that you do not like current design.
They push LFD not because the devs want to, is because the players like it.
Premade grouping and social communities do not need to be pushed if the audience already want it. The only "problem" here is that your preferences is not what devs catering for.
Sorry Nariusseldon, I again respectfully disagree like I always will with you. You are the type of player better off in a Single player game. You are the reason why we have trash for MMOs and MMOs are in the hole. MMOs are and will always be made for people who want communities and pushing premade stuff. Why do you think there are countless Kickstarters for these games? Because its not made for Farmville players like you.
If FFXI had a decent player base I'd probably go back.
Outside of old outdated death mechanics, this is one of the core reasons I never will go back to UO. Yea there is like 30K people playing it. But the world is DEAD to me. Thats why I think Kickstarts who build their game with things like full loot open world PVP which will get less than 30K people are wasting their times. Because the worlds will feel dead.
You did have some other valid points. I just feel having instances where its not like Shadowlabs where if you dont have at least 2 long term CCs and 2 short term you are likely to wipe setups, we could have better groups. Also I think making classes simpler to play that don't require massive rotations for dungeons would be helpful. Hell my friend James who played a Mage all the time in WOW had no problems playing Arcane and throwing nothing but Arcane Bolts. It was enough damage to kill mobs with other Mobs CCed like a healer in a mob.
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
What you said is not the "problem". There is no "problem", only that you do not like current design.
They push LFD not because the devs want to, is because the players like it.
Premade grouping and social communities do not need to be pushed if the audience already want it. The only "problem" here is that your preferences is not what devs catering for.
Sorry Nariusseldon, I again respectfully disagree like I always will with you. You are the type of player better off in a Single player game. You are the reason why we have trash for MMOs and MMOs are in the hole. MMOs are and will always be made for people who want communities and pushing premade stuff. Why do you think there are countless Kickstarters for these games? Because its not made for Farmville players like you.
Clearly, not all MMOs are made for people who want communities. Otherwise, why would you complain in this topic?
If you have to beg devs to push pre-made groups, they are clearly not a priority in today's MMO. And why is that? Because devs don't want that audience.
If MMO is made for people who want communities and pre-made groups, will LFD a standard feature? Will soloability a selling point?
Sure there are small KS projects trying to cater to the niche ... but clearly it is not the AAA mainstream. Otherwise, why would they even need KS?
I also want to mention as well that group oriented game play encourages a better community. In Everquest, even though it was forced grouping, it inspired a community. A community in which you knew who were good players, the best tanks, the best healers, the best healers, as well as who were the worst players that complained, ninja looted or overall was terrible at their class. A group oriented game created a server reputation for everyone. For instance, everyone wanted to be in my groups because I made the best groups. I think being accountable for you as a player is what the industry needs.
I don't get MMOs that do not put grouping at the
core of their game, I really don't, after all we do play MMOs to play WITH people not
ALONGSIDE people. I don't have anything against people that like more solo friendly MMOs, I believed everyone should have a game tailored to them. So this post is not about Group MMOs vs Solo MMOs. But unfortunately (for me) today, the Solo friendly MMOs far outnumber the Group friendly ones, and the few games that put more emphasis on Group don't do a great job at it. So I play MMO to play with groups of people, that is my play-style, having said that I too get frustrated when I can't get a group to run a dungeon or complete a difficult quest. So the challenges of finding a group doesn't affect only solo oriented players but particularly people who actually prefer to group. If I can't group, I won't play, and that's a problem. No wonder players do not like the so called "forced" group, sometimes finding a Group is a game in itself.
The solution though is not having a Dungeon Finder, because as everyone knows, it creates even more problems (people becomes disconnected with the game). I believe that the biggest problem with the group system as we know it is the stiff Trinity Mechanics. Don't
get me wrong, the Trinity is essential for me to enjoy group content (the essence of Role Play is playing a role),
but the design of this mechanics is as old as EQ (possibly D&D) and
never really evolved. The problem is that in general DPS far outnumber Healers and Tanks, making it difficult to make groups. In a way it is understandable, those
two roles are far more demanding than any DPS class, if you do a
mistake people will point fingers at you, and that's extra stress most
people do not want.
So how do you correct this problem? There are few ways to do it:
1) You are what you wear Basically
instead of having classes set in stone, based on traditional skill
advancement, your class is dictated by the equipment you are wearing. A
good example is Warframe, it is not a MMORPG but if you play it (it is
free) you understand what I mean. So
if a group is looking for a Healer to start and you are wearing your
Sorcerer outfit, you put the healer gear on and you can fill that
vacancy. This is a bit immersion sensitive, but I believe the benefits far outnumber the cons.
2) Dual Specs Classes Few games tried this approach but it was always half baked. WoW for example offer dual Specs but ironically don't actually help the cause of group finding. What
it does is to allow Tanks and Healers to be viable DPS, unfortunately
it doesn't allow the opposite which is DPS classes that can turn into
Healers or Tanks. It doesn't have to be immersion breaker either. A paladin for example can be both a Knight (Tank) or a Cleric (Healer) A Necromancer can be both a Lich (Tank) or a Summoner (DPS) A Sorcerer can be both a Wizard (DPS) or an Acolyte (Healer) And so on.
3) Hire a Merc I know what you are thinking, it has already been done. But in my version you impersonate the Merc, so it is not the game that controls it but it is you. Nobody in their right mind would trust an NPC Healing your group. Only
one Merc character per group will be allowed and the effect would last
around 2 hours which should be enough to complete any content. Other restrictions might apply to avoid turning the game into a PvE MOBA. This
system needs a bit more thought than the other two I suggested but if
is well implemented and balanced it could be the best compromise.
Of course there are other reasons why people don't like Group focused MMOs, it could be the content, it could be the mechanics of the game, other people simply don't like to Group. But I believe that if the industry doesn't address issues that concern players that actually like to group, group centric MMOs will progressivelly become more rare, which is a shame.
So what are your thoughts guys? Do you think any of those suggestions might help making MMOs more group friendly?
Here is a pro tip: Try to formulate your thoughts in simple, fewest possible sentences.
An effort to formulate your thoughts properly and precisely will help you avoiding false premise you usually start with and build the following wall of text upon and in general getting lost in your very own thoughts, making the wall of text senseless, just like post you linked to.
Start with basic analysis. In order for players to team up, they need a content that is accessible, rewarding and desired. However there are several issues:
1) Character progression
Teaming up meaningfully a lvl 1 and lvl 50 characters is difficult to achieve.
2) Rewards
Teaming up should be rewarding but if the reward is supposed also an incentive to run same content in a group, it will become difficult to balance - if grouping isn't reward enough, it will fail as incentive, if the reward is too high, solo players will be penalized.
3) Desire
Whatever you propose, you need to keep in mind why games evolved into what they are now - games with most players/revenue are those that hint what people like the most. There is no point coming up with an idea that will "fix" the problem mechanically but will lack any appeal to players.
The "problem" was already solved. Most titles provide plenty of group content at their "end game", some provide dedicated, instanced content, some use level scaling, etc.
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
What you said is not the "problem". There is no "problem", only that you do not like current design.
They push LFD not because the devs want to, is because the players like it.
Premade grouping and social communities do not need to be pushed if the audience already want it. The only "problem" here is that your preferences is not what devs catering for.
Sorry Nariusseldon, I again respectfully disagree like I always will with you. You are the type of player better off in a Single player game. You are the reason why we have trash for MMOs and MMOs are in the hole. MMOs are and will always be made for people who want communities and pushing premade stuff. Why do you think there are countless Kickstarters for these games? Because its not made for Farmville players like you.
Clearly, not all MMOs are made for people who want communities. Otherwise, why would you complain in this topic?
If you have to beg devs to push pre-made groups, they are clearly not a priority in today's MMO. And why is that? Because devs don't want that audience.
If MMO is made for people who want communities and pre-made groups, will LFD a standard feature? Will soloability a selling point?
Sure there are small KS projects trying to cater to the niche ... but clearly it is not the AAA mainstream. Otherwise, why would they even need KS?
Again What you state here is CLEARLY why WOW is failing as well as many other MMOs. While I will say there is a SPACE for Mainstream heavily group based MMO because there is. The problem is every publisher is trying to get WOW 12 Million Sub numbers by catering to people like you who dont play MMOs, you more play just an Online RPG.
Nariusseldon. I am going to make it clear. I don't like you at all and never will. This is because you are the person that bitches endlessly if a game is not F2P. You bitch if it does not conform to exactly your personal style of game play. You are not happy in any game and NEVER will be. You know why? You just consume games you do not play them to be a part of them. Yet you endlessly go on to each game forum and trash them because they do not conform to what you want. You are not taking 1 part like I do a Permdeath or a Death Penalty that I hate. No you talk 100% negatively about the game Hell you do that until they become F2P then they are the next coming of WOW until the next game you want F2P. For that that fact, I dont like you and I will never agree with you.
Again What you state here is CLEARLY why WOW is failing as well as many other MMOs. While I will say there is a SPACE for Mainstream heavily group based MMO because there is. The problem is every publisher is trying to get WOW 12 Million Sub numbers by catering to people like you who dont play MMOs, you more play just an Online RPG.
The problem is, there is unlikely anything but your bias to back up those claims. nariusseldon is right there.
Comments
And yes, MMOs can learn from Diablo 3.
1) (class swapping) Could be a possible way to do it but not the only group related solution.
2) (Dual Specs Classes) I agree with the idea to give everyone equal "damage dealer" opportunities but an additional special role. Depending on the game the special role could be essential or non-essential to the group.
3) (Mercs/bots) Can supplement for lacking a player. Also, doesn't exactly solve the "group problem". Sure, it fills in a gap so that a group can proceed without a player/ role but it doesn't make grouping more fun. SWTOR has shown there is a difficult balance with them to keep other players relevant. In MP games sometimes they are worthwhile to make a full group possible but rarely are a good enough replacement.
Dungeon finder/ auto-group matching - Makes it really easy to form a group but no meaningful social interaction takes place. I'm not even sure if that is a persuable objective anymore in a MMORPG where people expect to play alongside but not with others.(as @neonaka pointed out)
Why do people care to have a massive (65+) numbers of players near them anyway? I find whatever, "immersion atmosphere" there to be from it rather useless if most the content is blandly solo and at trivial difficulty. So I say- grouping in MMORPGs isn't worth trying to solve. Much better for an rpg game to not be massive and be very good in the competitive/cooperative department.
Whenever I start a new MMO I think, "awesome, something for me to play with my friends" and then we get in, start learning the game and all we can think is, "so when does the group content start?".
Games that allow full solo play are NOT group friendly. If you think so, then you are simply not a group minded player. Period.
Refresh my memory as to the topic of this post, because you are one confused sob.
1. There seems to be a lot of people that DO just want to play ALONGSIDE others. It may seem a bit weird, but there is something to be said for seeing other people doing 'random' things in an otherwise static world.
2. All your solutions are basically the same thing, i.e. allow people to play a tank / healer even if they rolled DPS, and none of them address the problem, which as you stated is that few people want to take on those roles (i.e. they will queue as DPS anyway). I also think being able to just switch classes / roles at level cap is a terrible idea as even certain players who have leveled tanks / healers are.. less than good.
Maybe it's just that I play all three roles in FFXIV but I don't really see a massive problem here, at least not one that requires the changes suggested, because, well...
1. Allowing anyone to play a role that they are not trained in is just a bad idea (and yes part of this is that the game needs to do more to train players to play well). Also, FFXIV does allow you to switch roles on a single character, as long as you've leveled it.
2. By allowing groups without a certain class composition to complete content you only discourage the use of rarer classes. Almost everyone seems to deride GW2 for all the classes being DPS with no defined role, but what do you think would happen to a trinity game if Tanks and Healers were not needed?
2.1. Without the strict structure of 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS (as an example) and the game imposing who is who, how much chaos do you think you average PUG is going to be? See: GW2
3. By being rarer, and having more responsibility, Tanks and Healers have the perk of getting groups faster (and having more power within the group
I'm not saying there is no problem here, it's just not THAT big, and the solution isn't a bunch crazy algorithms trying to give everyone a perfect experience. What games need to do better, a lot better in some cases, is to encourage communication, and make it easier and more natural for like minded players to 'meet'.
Entirely how this is done I'm not sure... but a group finder with a few more options like 'My Server Only', 'Favor players I like'* (commended in the FFXIV world), and possibly even 'Speed Run Only', would help.
Also, and I think this is a must, the ability to do any and all content (looking at you solo story instances) in a group. I absolutely hate having to say 'sorry, gotta drop the group so I can do my story mission'. I don't care if it trivialises solo content, that should be my choice. Going even further, players should be able to sync down (up never made much sense to me) and get partial quest rewards for helping others.
* Note that this would only be a slight weighting and could increase wait times for those that choose this option. But, it would mean that if two (or more) players are regularly on at the same time and like each other they will be grouped more frequently (than strict queue / total random), and thus have a chance to become friends.
Non group pvp?
Why would i do that and miss out on unique gameplay and IP? Tell me, where I can play ant-man and combat with his shrinking power except on Marvel Heroes? Or fight a klingon bird of prey and then beam down on a away mission except on STO?
The Problem today is two fold. People want to speed level to end game to raid and they also dont want to be tied down to instances where it takes hours to get a group because instances become a part of the treadmill. Instead of Instances being well you get better gear to help you along your chosen path. As for rush to end game, this is due to WOW focusing on getting everyone into Raiding instead of having some long ass quest to get very good gear (Thinking of the Warriors Epic Chest piece from Vanilla WOW where it was a huge quest to do) or having alternate ways of gearing up (BC Heroics).
We don't need to completely reinvent the wheel when it comes to grouping. Basically people who want to solo should however it should be well the least beneficial way to play the game. And Premade grouping NOT LFR/LFG grouping should be the most beneficial because harder content will have the best gear and you will get gear to drop faster.
Examples of this would be the Warriors tanking chest piece in WOW. That was a long pain in the ass quest chain. Yes you had to do instances but it should push you to group and show you the benefits of grouping.
Example of Premade groups would be having Vanilla/TBC instances again which require CC (Maybe not Shadowlabs level CC but CC still) that drop Blue gear and some Epic gear like BC did. Also make loot drops selectable. Say I am a Pali Tank who can heal or DPS too with Offspecs. I can select 1 other spec that gear could drop for me as an extra piece. This is only an option with Premade groups. If a LFG tool is used, the instance is basically a mosh pit setup where players dont get anything but leveling greens and content is done just so you can see it. Its a true tourist mode. Basically has no benefit to players when it comes to gear or skill progression.
There are so many things that can be done to push Premade grouping again and social communities that are getting thrown to the side so we can get a big pool of players if we market to Farmville and Solo gamers not to MMO Gamers.
They push LFD not because the devs want to, is because the players like it.
Premade grouping and social communities do not need to be pushed if the audience already want it. The only "problem" here is that your preferences is not what devs catering for.
I think Rift does a decent job of trying to get people to play together. All classes can play any role and can switch any time out of combat, so if you lose your tank and can't find a replacement, someone can switch roles and then just find another dps. I also like how groups auto-form when doing rifts and zone events. It's strange that nobody wants to form groups to do content but they'll flock to the zone events because it's much more fun than soloing.
Personally I'd like to see a return of dungeons that aren't group instanced, like those prevalent in DAoC. The best drops were there and you could generally find groups to invite you along. I really don't think it would be that difficult to design a game that allows solo play but encourages group play for harder content & better rewards without doing the whole dungeon finder trinity thing.
The KEY to fixing Grouping with instances is to stop making them part of the end game treadmill and make it it's own set of progression. AND the only way to do that is bring in CC no more AOE tanking and no LFG tools. Now a group Finder tool where I could list myself looking for a group and people contact me. But no random match making. Random Match Making is a core problem to grouping today. Random Match making is great for mash button instances just to see the instance. It is not good for anything that requires Teamwork. Teamwork is the core to any group activity.
So Trinity is NEEDED. The key with Trinity is 2 fold. First Encourage Premades and Encourage them to play together vs jumping ship. Next thing make classes different from each other but still make instances doable with any mix of Tank, Healer, or DPS/Support classes. For example one of my BRD runs we had a Ret Pali who Off Tanked for me, I tanked, my wife healed, my friend James was the mage who also CCed and my other friend played a Rogue. Another group I ran with I healed, my friend Tim Tanked, Rick DPSed on a Lock which also gave us CC, My wife did Balance, and James again was our Mage. We could manage with any mixture of the trinity. Why? Because the groups were not so hard that it took a strict Trinity group to have equal CCs, with a tank and healer. We could OT sometimes, we could CC more others. We had short and long CCs.
Done right, like Vanilla WOW and TBC did (This is coming from someone who already played 4 other MMOs before WOW came around AND was in MMOs 6 years before WOW) Grouping and Trinity works. You dont need Pre-WOW stuff and you dont need Whack a mole content like we have today. BALANCE is the key and what well got right. Ya 40 mans were hell but hard raids with around 10 people its doable. That could offset the 40 man stuff. Or Scale raids to allow us to bring more than 10 people. Or make a raid a hard 10 core players trinity base then the others could be what ever they wanted.
Outside of old outdated death mechanics, this is one of the core reasons I never will go back to UO. Yea there is like 30K people playing it. But the world is DEAD to me. Thats why I think Kickstarts who build their game with things like full loot open world PVP which will get less than 30K people are wasting their times. Because the worlds will feel dead.
You did have some other valid points. I just feel having instances where its not like Shadowlabs where if you dont have at least 2 long term CCs and 2 short term you are likely to wipe setups, we could have better groups. Also I think making classes simpler to play that don't require massive rotations for dungeons would be helpful. Hell my friend James who played a Mage all the time in WOW had no problems playing Arcane and throwing nothing but Arcane Bolts. It was enough damage to kill mobs with other Mobs CCed like a healer in a mob.
If you have to beg devs to push pre-made groups, they are clearly not a priority in today's MMO. And why is that? Because devs don't want that audience.
If MMO is made for people who want communities and pre-made groups, will LFD a standard feature? Will soloability a selling point?
Sure there are small KS projects trying to cater to the niche ... but clearly it is not the AAA mainstream. Otherwise, why would they even need KS?
An effort to formulate your thoughts properly and precisely will help you avoiding false premise you usually start with and build the following wall of text upon and in general getting lost in your very own thoughts, making the wall of text senseless, just like post you linked to.
Start with basic analysis. In order for players to team up, they need a content that is accessible, rewarding and desired. However there are several issues:
1) Character progression
Teaming up meaningfully a lvl 1 and lvl 50 characters is difficult to achieve.
2) Rewards
Teaming up should be rewarding but if the reward is supposed also an incentive to run same content in a group, it will become difficult to balance - if grouping isn't reward enough, it will fail as incentive, if the reward is too high, solo players will be penalized.
3) Desire
Whatever you propose, you need to keep in mind why games evolved into what they are now - games with most players/revenue are those that hint what people like the most. There is no point coming up with an idea that will "fix" the problem mechanically but will lack any appeal to players.
The "problem" was already solved. Most titles provide plenty of group content at their "end game", some provide dedicated, instanced content, some use level scaling, etc.
Nariusseldon. I am going to make it clear. I don't like you at all and never will. This is because you are the person that bitches endlessly if a game is not F2P. You bitch if it does not conform to exactly your personal style of game play. You are not happy in any game and NEVER will be. You know why? You just consume games you do not play them to be a part of them. Yet you endlessly go on to each game forum and trash them because they do not conform to what you want. You are not taking 1 part like I do a Permdeath or a Death Penalty that I hate. No you talk 100% negatively about the game Hell you do that until they become F2P then they are the next coming of WOW until the next game you want F2P. For that that fact, I dont like you and I will never agree with you.
You are in some sort of denial state...