IMO this is a big factor in why a lot of players like myself have become anti-social in MMOs. Naturally its not limited to this.
Player Elitism, Trolls, unneeded cursing in voice-chat or world chat, Graphic sexual remarks (discussions of rape), putting other players down, Anti-Christian/Muslim remarks, Players that are Drunk or High, Political discussions, bullying, Do nothing Guilds or Guilds with stupid high demands of players, Bigoted race remarks, lack of thanks for helping other players, etc, etc.
Many MMO players and former MMO players that I have spoken with prefer the casual/solo gameplay with a smidgeon of grouping due to the above issues. There is absolutely no need for (far too many) players to be in one of the categories above. Communities need to step up and shut the garbage down as much as humanly possible.
You aren't anti-social. The people you describe in the second paragraph are. Preferring to not socialize with them is a good thing. Just because they've ganged up doesn't mean you are anti-social. They are the one's who are destroying the social aspects. Not you.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
I find it strange how people can only be sociable when grouped. The rare times I'm actually social is with my guild/global chat when I'm soloing/crafting.
The reason for this is MMOs are getting more enjoyable to solo. A lot of gamers like a reason to kill things, Questing gives them that.
The reason people where more social in older MMO's was because on the whole they were very dull to solo. Grinding solo with no one to talk to was a depressing experience in older MMOs, you needed people to get over the monotony.
Also, todays MMOs being anti-social is completely anecdotal, I'm seeing a lot of socialising in the ones I'm playing. Be it helping new players out, grouping for dungeons, world encounters, RPing etc.
The idea you need group combat content to encourage socialising is idiotic.
OP, download WoW (or any MMO for that matter) and watch General Chat for 5 mins in a populated zone. That's all the explanation you'll need. There are some really really bad people in this world and reading zone chat reminds you of it. Heck, many forums will show this as well. Can you blame folks for not wanting to interact with others for fear of having to interact with those kinds of people? They say losing something reveals character, and I keep that in mind when I lose in PvP. I think General chat and forums reveal character as well. Sadly, good character in gaming seems to be in short supply these days.
Who the (bleep) are you to say (bleep)ing players are (bleep)ing anti social? (BLEEP) YOU!
Couldn't resist.
More to the OP, there's multiple reasons for the increasingly hostile environments, most of which have been listed here but at the end of the day, the bulk of humanity just sucks.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO design. The more MOBA play style influences how MMOs are made, the more it will push players away from making friends. You dont need friends in MMOs any more. Not saying there is not pockets of great communities in all MMOs, but you can get by just fine without them. Dungeon finds, generic classes so any class can fill a hole in a team. No one needs you, anyone will do. Quests are designed to play solo with the community being trained to play solo and spec solo. They get to end game and wonder why they need to team, often quiting and going to the next MMO as its not the same play style from level 1 to max.
The roots were in EQ, when players started multi-boxing with two or more computers. But those were few and far between. But people complained that the game was to group orientated, and that they would log on and do nothing for a couple of hours. This was even before WOW was released.
Then EQ2 and WOW were released. WOW was clearly the superior game and superior product, and you would solo the entire way to the level cap and then group for end instances.
EQ2 was a flop. So much so that they had to redesign the entire game and make it just like WOW, which is is and it is a pretty good WOW clone.
Once WOW started getting millions of players instead of the tens of thousands (like EQ) that was the end of group orientated games.
So people expect not to have to talk to a single person in any MMO they play, and you know what, it actually works. I leveled a character to the end game in Star Trek Online and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I chatted. Same with Elder Scrolls Online, same with The Secret World.....every game is the same way.
There have only been a couple of exceptions, and those are old games like EVE or FFXI.
First and foremost, so sorry for the long winded post. I got started and it just kinda spewed out while watching Scrooged on my other screen.
While I think that some have already hit a major point when
speculating that some of it comes down to elitism through “DPS meters and
similar mods”. I believe this is a more
complicated and diverse issue stemming from a multitude of factors which are
borne from not only publishers but developers and consumers.
The, what I would call, immediacy-imperative which is what
you get when todays’ gamer population is inundated with things they can do
quickly and NOW. When you’re not only
forcefully smacked in the face with 100’s of games that allow you to not only
do whatever you want NOW but get flashy sounds and rewards for doing it NOW, it’s
hard to see why things aren’t moving in that general direction. When you look at some of the more popular
mobile games, the vast majority of them are set up so that you can hop on at
almost any time and ‘do something’ RIGHT NOW.
When you are faced with a waiting period, you have a nice way of
completing that timed task with an RMT currency. You cannot have a game centered on social
interaction if you can do just about everything immediately.
Looking for Group systems. Drop yourself in a queue and do a match in an
instanced and timed zone with not repercussions what so ever. There is no motivation to group up other than
you’ll get the benefits from a win faster if you group up with those who you
know and trust who make a real effort to improve the efficiency of the group as
a whole. The World of Warcraft LFG
system is a great example. While there
were many times that you could see the LFG channel spammed with “hey, I need a
group for {x} or I am a {y} LFG!”, you had entire guilds being created by
people looking for a base of players to pull from to dungeoneer with. When I first joined a WoW guild, it was
because it was far easier to find good dungeon groups, not because we only
invited the best of the best but you ended up developing real relationships
with the people in your guild and it would be beneficial to the group as a
whole to help each other get better at the game. A massive portion of grouping is done this
way now and while the cities appear populated, they are mostly full of people
semi-afk waiting for another dungeon or raid timer to pop where they enter and
basically act like a school of fish, each person reacting to the movements of
others but never really conversing.
Another byproduct of an LFG system, especially cross
server/realm LFG systems, is the devolution of civility. ‘Back in my day’ people got black-balled from
groups at times because they were just toxic.
They would have to earn back the privilege of working with certain
groups. That toxicity is so ubiquitous
in MMO culture now because we now have all of these systems in place to get
around it (LFG, server transfers, name changes, etc). While being black-balled for other, elitist
reasons is bad, I think that we’ve gone too far to the other side and there
aren’t any real consequences to being a complete ass aside from a GM stepping
in to punish the ass, which isn’t a real solution.
Participation trophies.
This ties into the previous two points.
If you are always gifted with rewards, even for losing, you end up in a
system that rewards you for a) not caring about the outcome, b) not caring how
good you play, c) not caring about self-improvement and d) not realizing that a
partner or small group could vastly improve your experience. This isn’t to say that participation rewards
aren’t a good thing but the extent that they are handed out now, it’s almost
easier to lose faster than it is to put in a good effort and try to win. I’ve been through this so much in recent MMOs
that it’s disheartening.
Another thing developers are doing is removing the need to
micro-manage anything that doesn’t directly focus on the primary aspect/focus
of the game. You have things like world
auction houses which remove the need to move goods from one region to the other. In this case, there is no need to form up a
posse or work with outsiders to defend your trade goods as you move them. Conversely, you do not have the ability to take
on those groups of people with a group of your own. In this case, I think Archeage had it right
(at least the system that was employed pre-Release). If you wanted to make some good coin, you
needed to do trade runs. If you wanted
to make a lot of coin fast, you needed to brave the more dangerous trade
runs. This resulted in not only raiding
parties and blockades but counter forces to protect or break through the
hostile forces. Despite your belief’s on
PvP and ganking, these activities are GOOD FOR THE GAME and CONTRIBUTE GREATELY
TO THE VIBRANCY OF THE GAME.
Crafting is, more likely than not, is a solo mans
side-activity. There is no reason for
me, as a crafter, to make a lasting relationship with a gatherer of specific
goods at a specific quality. If you want
to look at a superb example of a resource and crafting system, take a look at
Ryzome. It’s incredibly deep and
characters can specialize in different resource gathering. Those people are sought after by high-end
crafters and there are long-term relationships created and maintained in that
game due to the resource/crafting system.
Simplicity of content.
Why should I group up when it’s far more efficient for me to blast
through all this content by myself? Lets
look, again, at WoW. Every class is self
sufficient. The previously stalwart
warriors who could easily take a massive pounding now can dish out ridiculously
high damage and heal himself. When WoW
launched, they had hybrid classes (basically good at it all but master of none)
which is essentially what all the classes are now. Why should a warrior run around with a healer
when he can just pop a few cooldowns every 5 minutes and regenerate all his
health or dish out as much damage as a mage?
My last point is probably going to be the most controversial
and ties in directly with my previous point.
The removal of the Trinity or other such systems. While the Trinity is often either loved or
hated, I like it primarily because it forces people to rely on others, thus
create relationships. In my eyes, these
systems are not used because people want to do everything themselves (a byproduct
of just about everything else discussed).
Interdependency drives and motivates people to socialize because it’s
nearly a requirement to partake in COOPERATIVE ventures, which is what
dungeoneering and PvP’ing were always about.
Not just video games, its all of society. Scaring the hell out of me. We live in the age of communication and technology has made us nearly incapable of personal conversation.
Who the (bleep) are you to say (bleep)ing players are (bleep)ing anti social? (BLEEP) YOU!
Couldn't resist.
More to the OP, there's multiple reasons for the increasingly hostile environments, most of which have been listed here but at the end of the day, the bulk of humanity just sucks.
There I go again.
I can't wait for that new mmoRPG called City of Hermits!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Who the (bleep) are you to say (bleep)ing players are (bleep)ing anti social? (BLEEP) YOU!
Couldn't resist.
More to the OP, there's multiple reasons for the increasingly hostile environments, most of which have been listed here but at the end of the day, the bulk of humanity just sucks.
There I go again.
I can't wait for that new mmoRPG called City of Hermits!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not just video games, its all of society. Scaring the hell out of me. We live in the age of communication and technology has made us nearly incapable of personal conversation.
I like to do my own thing and know I can progress without grouping. I like to go at my own pace so I prefer not to group while leveling. I also got burned out on scheduled raids and having to use voice chat.
I like to do my own thing and know I can progress without grouping. I like to go at my own pace so I prefer not to group while leveling. I also got burned out on scheduled raids and having to use voice chat.
Isn't this an almost textbook definition of Anti-social? Why even play a game that involves players if you just want to play alone?
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
I like to do my own thing and know I can progress without grouping. I like to go at my own pace so I prefer not to group while leveling. I also got burned out on scheduled raids and having to use voice chat.
Isn't this an almost textbook definition of Anti-social? Why even play a game that involves players if you just want to play alone?
I think a slight distinction can/should be made between anti-social and wanting to decompress after a long day. With that being said, that seems to be the general mode of play developed by game publishers these days.
Because people value their time. It's that simple.
I don't like waiting 10+ minutes for a group, whether if it's for a dungeon or a quest. I don't want to socialize about what i ate or what my dog and cat are doing. If you want to socialize, use Facebook for that stuff.
Because people value their time. It's that simple.
I don't like waiting 10+ minutes for a group, whether if it's for a dungeon or a quest. I don't want to socialize about what i ate or what my dog and cat are doing. If you want to socialize, use Facebook for that stuff.
Which is fine but that style of gameplay isn't conducive to the social interaction and interplay that is a big part of the MMO experience. MMOs that do not have those motivations to socialize don't last and consistently lose playerbase, which generally means the game/servers/worlds dieing...imo.
Maybe this will help. Seems to be some of the usual extrovert confusion between asocial and antisocial.
There is easily space for both in this discussion. While the underlying motivation to solo'ing may be different, the fact that MMOs have actively developing ways to accommodate both motivations is detracting from the overall experience.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
The reason for this is MMOs are getting more enjoyable to solo. A lot of gamers like a reason to kill things, Questing gives them that.
The reason people where more social in older MMO's was because on the whole they were very dull to solo. Grinding solo with no one to talk to was a depressing experience in older MMOs, you needed people to get over the monotony.
Also, todays MMOs being anti-social is completely anecdotal, I'm seeing a lot of socialising in the ones I'm playing. Be it helping new players out, grouping for dungeons, world encounters, RPing etc.
The idea you need group combat content to encourage socialising is idiotic.
Couldn't resist.
More to the OP, there's multiple reasons for the increasingly hostile environments, most of which have been listed here but at the end of the day, the bulk of humanity just sucks.
There I go again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Then EQ2 and WOW were released. WOW was clearly the superior game and superior product, and you would solo the entire way to the level cap and then group for end instances.
EQ2 was a flop. So much so that they had to redesign the entire game and make it just like WOW, which is is and it is a pretty good WOW clone.
Once WOW started getting millions of players instead of the tens of thousands (like EQ) that was the end of group orientated games.
So people expect not to have to talk to a single person in any MMO they play, and you know what, it actually works. I leveled a character to the end game in Star Trek Online and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I chatted. Same with Elder Scrolls Online, same with The Secret World.....every game is the same way.
There have only been a couple of exceptions, and those are old games like EVE or FFXI.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I have been called anti-social, because I'd spend all my nights at a computer screen playing an MMORPG instead of going out and socializing.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
While I think that some have already hit a major point when speculating that some of it comes down to elitism through “DPS meters and similar mods”. I believe this is a more complicated and diverse issue stemming from a multitude of factors which are borne from not only publishers but developers and consumers.
The, what I would call, immediacy-imperative which is what you get when todays’ gamer population is inundated with things they can do quickly and NOW. When you’re not only forcefully smacked in the face with 100’s of games that allow you to not only do whatever you want NOW but get flashy sounds and rewards for doing it NOW, it’s hard to see why things aren’t moving in that general direction. When you look at some of the more popular mobile games, the vast majority of them are set up so that you can hop on at almost any time and ‘do something’ RIGHT NOW. When you are faced with a waiting period, you have a nice way of completing that timed task with an RMT currency. You cannot have a game centered on social interaction if you can do just about everything immediately.
Looking for Group systems. Drop yourself in a queue and do a match in an instanced and timed zone with not repercussions what so ever. There is no motivation to group up other than you’ll get the benefits from a win faster if you group up with those who you know and trust who make a real effort to improve the efficiency of the group as a whole. The World of Warcraft LFG system is a great example. While there were many times that you could see the LFG channel spammed with “hey, I need a group for {x} or I am a {y} LFG!”, you had entire guilds being created by people looking for a base of players to pull from to dungeoneer with. When I first joined a WoW guild, it was because it was far easier to find good dungeon groups, not because we only invited the best of the best but you ended up developing real relationships with the people in your guild and it would be beneficial to the group as a whole to help each other get better at the game. A massive portion of grouping is done this way now and while the cities appear populated, they are mostly full of people semi-afk waiting for another dungeon or raid timer to pop where they enter and basically act like a school of fish, each person reacting to the movements of others but never really conversing.
Another byproduct of an LFG system, especially cross server/realm LFG systems, is the devolution of civility. ‘Back in my day’ people got black-balled from groups at times because they were just toxic. They would have to earn back the privilege of working with certain groups. That toxicity is so ubiquitous in MMO culture now because we now have all of these systems in place to get around it (LFG, server transfers, name changes, etc). While being black-balled for other, elitist reasons is bad, I think that we’ve gone too far to the other side and there aren’t any real consequences to being a complete ass aside from a GM stepping in to punish the ass, which isn’t a real solution.
Participation trophies. This ties into the previous two points. If you are always gifted with rewards, even for losing, you end up in a system that rewards you for a) not caring about the outcome, b) not caring how good you play, c) not caring about self-improvement and d) not realizing that a partner or small group could vastly improve your experience. This isn’t to say that participation rewards aren’t a good thing but the extent that they are handed out now, it’s almost easier to lose faster than it is to put in a good effort and try to win. I’ve been through this so much in recent MMOs that it’s disheartening.
Another thing developers are doing is removing the need to micro-manage anything that doesn’t directly focus on the primary aspect/focus of the game. You have things like world auction houses which remove the need to move goods from one region to the other. In this case, there is no need to form up a posse or work with outsiders to defend your trade goods as you move them. Conversely, you do not have the ability to take on those groups of people with a group of your own. In this case, I think Archeage had it right (at least the system that was employed pre-Release). If you wanted to make some good coin, you needed to do trade runs. If you wanted to make a lot of coin fast, you needed to brave the more dangerous trade runs. This resulted in not only raiding parties and blockades but counter forces to protect or break through the hostile forces. Despite your belief’s on PvP and ganking, these activities are GOOD FOR THE GAME and CONTRIBUTE GREATELY TO THE VIBRANCY OF THE GAME.
Crafting is, more likely than not, is a solo mans side-activity. There is no reason for me, as a crafter, to make a lasting relationship with a gatherer of specific goods at a specific quality. If you want to look at a superb example of a resource and crafting system, take a look at Ryzome. It’s incredibly deep and characters can specialize in different resource gathering. Those people are sought after by high-end crafters and there are long-term relationships created and maintained in that game due to the resource/crafting system.
Simplicity of content. Why should I group up when it’s far more efficient for me to blast through all this content by myself? Lets look, again, at WoW. Every class is self sufficient. The previously stalwart warriors who could easily take a massive pounding now can dish out ridiculously high damage and heal himself. When WoW launched, they had hybrid classes (basically good at it all but master of none) which is essentially what all the classes are now. Why should a warrior run around with a healer when he can just pop a few cooldowns every 5 minutes and regenerate all his health or dish out as much damage as a mage?
My last point is probably going to be the most controversial and ties in directly with my previous point. The removal of the Trinity or other such systems. While the Trinity is often either loved or hated, I like it primarily because it forces people to rely on others, thus create relationships. In my eyes, these systems are not used because people want to do everything themselves (a byproduct of just about everything else discussed). Interdependency drives and motivates people to socialize because it’s nearly a requirement to partake in COOPERATIVE ventures, which is what dungeoneering and PvP’ing were always about.
I can't wait for that new mmoRPG called City of Hermits!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Anyone can go out to any social setting and be antisocial.
Do you start blaming the bride and groom when you attend a wedding?
Do you blame the bartender, waitter/waitress, or the owner at the local bar/restaurant you go to?
Do you blame the bus driver or Metro Transit when you take the public transit?
It's so easy for folks to point the finger never taking personal responsibility.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why even play a game that involves players if you just want to play alone?
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Maybe this will help. Seems to be some of the usual extrovert confusion between asocial and antisocial.
I don't like waiting 10+ minutes for a group, whether if it's for a dungeon or a quest. I don't want to socialize about what i ate or what my dog and cat are doing. If you want to socialize, use Facebook for that stuff.
Which is fine but that style of gameplay isn't conducive to the social interaction and interplay that is a big part of the MMO experience. MMOs that do not have those motivations to socialize don't last and consistently lose playerbase, which generally means the game/servers/worlds dieing...imo.
There is easily space for both in this discussion. While the underlying motivation to solo'ing may be different, the fact that MMOs have actively developing ways to accommodate both motivations is detracting from the overall experience.
I dislike when they think introverted means shy. lol
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"