"I'll tell you why I think BDO will go P2W. It's nothing more than my personal opinion that the Western demographic is being played for a complex (Good publicity) Bait-N-Switch game."
It's possible. However it's also possible that the game will not become the ultimate p2w Apocolypse like Jonas is suggesting.
My main point is that it doesn't have to happen, and I'm not sure if it would even be a good idea to do it. Most MMOs in the West succeed without p2w.
I do expect that we will be able to trade items on the marketplace eventually. I don't however expect that to happen very quickly, and when it does I don't expect it to immediately become a p2w Apocolypse overnight.
Even if it does, I don't necessarily think it will be game breaking. I've read plenty of posts on reddit from people playing the KR version and stating that p2w affects them rarely if ever.
***
Honestly I don't think Daum at this point knows whether or not they're going to go with a p2w system. I suspect they'll look at box sales and in-game shop sales and weigh that against the potential profits (and losses) of going p2w and make a decision from there.
I'll tell you what they are going to do. They are going to maintain a profit margin in the best way they can. The difference in our opinions is that I believe that margin to be a lot tighter than you do.
But sure, anything's possible, I can not read the future. Only guess.
One thing that you can take to the bank... they're not going to make a decidedly different version of the game for the west just because the players ask for it. They don't have 3 entirely different development teams, just one. You're buying into the Korean game with english added... they're not making a entirely different game for the west.
Uhh except that there have been changes made for the western market already. They will release differing versions if it will net them more money. Getting rid of p2w elements, changing around how pvp works, making the game b2p instead of f2p, and other differences already vary greatly in the US/EU vs korea/russia...
Those things don't functionally change the game... now if they had 44 classes in the west version and only 2 in the Korean version, then you'd have a functional change to the game. All the rest you mention are not radical code/asset changes... those things can be overlaid onto the base game. Hence the ease in which they can add/remove them.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check Pearl Abyss = P2W company? check
It is delusional to think that they are going to create the next GW2 based on these facts.
Even if the game doesn't go full P2W right away:
RNG crafting + insane vertical stat scaling = dead pvp game
The game already has a BUILT IN LACK OF LONGEVITY which means it MUST go P2W if they want to make a profit since they are not selling millions of boxes.
They will have to do what GW2 and SWTOR have done and allow converting cash into in game currency. The DIFFERENCE is that in BDO this can be converted directly into PVP power which you can't do in western games since the best gear is BOP or in GW2's case has very little vertical scaling.
Stop claiming Pearl Abyss is going to make the next GW2, its IMPOSSIBLE with the current itemization/gear system.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check Pearl Abyss = P2W company? check
It is delusional to think that they are going to create the next GW2 based on these facts.
Even if the game doesn't go full P2W right away:
RNG crafting + insane vertical stat scaling = dead pvp game
The game already has a BUILT IN LACK OF LONGEVITY which means it MUST go P2W if they want to make a profit since they are not selling millions of boxes.
They will have to do what GW2 and SWTOR have done and allow converting cash into in game currency. The DIFFERENCE is that in BDO this can be converted directly into PVP power which you can't do in western games since the best gear is BOP or in GW2's case has very little vertical scaling.
Stop claiming Pearl Abyss is going to make the next GW2, its IMPOSSIBLE with the current itemization/gear system.
Anything is possible. It is delusional to believe that BDO going down the P2W route is impossible, but it isn't 100% guaranteed to either, regardless of how many checks you list.
People seem to love RNG with or without ways to get around it. They also love convenience, vanity, fluff crap.
Boxes/Keys are available in many/most? popular online games across multiple genres and bring in a lot of cash from what I understand. While they can be looked at as P2W, if worth while items are .001% or whatever, I don't see it as a huge concern myself.
Hearthstone is a competitive "PVP" game of sorts and has both RNG and P2W. Nets Blizzard millions.
Diablo 3 (maybe it's just Blizzard?) another RNG with in-game casino features that keeps fans coming back.
GW2 is F2P now I believe? I doubt HoT or whatever box sells are keeping them going. Looking at the current shop options, seems like there is much similarity to what they are doing with BDO. We'll pretend nothing in it provides any sort of P2W advantage...
Although BDO =/= GW2. Just as GW2 =/= WoW or insert whatever comparison. Same goes for throwing AA in there.
BDO KR has been going for over a year. Not sure what longevity is exactly, but they don't see to be slowing down with adding content/updates.
It is very possible that BDO NA/EU sells content updates as expansions for $X. I'd pay at least $25+ for Valencia for example. Along with Awakening Weapons or access to over +15 gear. Not a huge difference compared to buying HoT and gaining new content, class, gear, etc. Is it fair to those that want to buy the game and nothing more? Not so much, but they aren't a charity.
You are right to point out the gear stat scaling and it is the only real issue I have. However, if they address it, would remove quite a lot of issue from the game and allow PVP to balance out after a while if the grind to get to the "top" still remains very hard. If +18 is only 5% better than +17 but takes 200% longer to reach, it will be worth it to those that can reach it, but not so much that it is required to compete outside of 1v1 dueling.
Which is why I like passive training in Crowfall. Someone new can reach a decent competitive point relatively quickly, but those with the time/money can get a head. It isn't fair, but isn't crazy unfair either (so far).
Obviously it is a "what if" BDO's scaling is looked at, but as people reach 50+ and +15 gear, I'm assuming all eyes will be on Daum to figure it out. Not going to be day 10 that the issue happens out of no where.
In the end, it is a wait and see situation for those of us that will be or would like to play at some point. I'm taking the risk just as I've done for two decades. I dropped a couple hundred on Crowfall with zero promise of a product I'll even like. Games are for entertainment (me at least) and if they seem like a scam, chore, or unpleasant time, no need to bother yourself with them.
Despite you disliking the KR/BDO/AA whatever model, others do. Great you want to prevent the spread of such evil things, but unfortunately those logging in and funding these products outnumber you quite a bit.
And you can keep spamming blogs about whatever random drivel pops into your head. BDO will not sell anywhere close to GW2 and will need to add cash4currency which can be converted into power.
I am not debating that P2W / RNG can make money. It is the best way to make money quickly, especially if you are not a well known company. It does however ruin the integrity and long term enjoyment of PvP.
You can't pay blizzard $1000 and make your archmage card 100x stronger than other people with the same card, but you will be able to do exactly that in BDO.
BDO has less P2W than AA for at least the 'launch phase', but most of the other major problems are exactly the same in terms of pvp balance. BDO is closer to AA than it is to any other game, so stop comparing it to western games as if they are completely redesigning the game.
Your standards are: people log into game, therefore game = good. There is literally no point in talking to you.
And you can keep spamming blogs about whatever random drivel pops into your head. BDO will not sell anywhere close to GW2 and will need to add cash4currency which can be converted into power.
I am not debating that P2W / RNG can make money. It is the best way to make money quickly, especially if you are not a well known company. It does however ruin the integrity and long term enjoyment of PvP.
You can't pay blizzard $1000 and make your archmage card 100x stronger than other people with the same card, but you will be able to do exactly that in BDO.
BDO has less P2W than AA for at least the 'launch phase', but most of the other major problems are exactly the same in terms of pvp balance. BDO is closer to AA than it is to any other game, so stop comparing it to western games as if they are completely redesigning the game.
Your standards are: people log into game, therefore game = good. There is literally no point in talking to you.
Your standards: Whatever you like = good. You seem to fail at grasping that everyone doesn't think or want exactly what you do.
"Good" is 100% subjective.
While I type a lot, not sure what I've said that would fall under the drivel spam category, if you aren't able to come up with anything beyond your go to standard of BDO = AA = Bad, it's all find and dandy. I understand that many lack the ability to read/respond to such complex comments with so many words that require you to look beyond your blinders.
BDO doesn't need to sell GW2 numbers just as GW2 doesn't need to sell WoW numbers. Each product is its own bubble. What works or doesn't for one doesn't mean much for the other.
Funny thing however is BDO could follow GW2 and launch B2P, add free content updates, switch to F2P, start selling content updates/expansions, and live off the shop just as GW2 does. Casino is a common part of gaming and not a concern in my eyes. Only real major hurdles are high end gear scaling and RMT, both of which they've said will be looked at before they make it into the game. If they can balance those two, BDO's overall format won't be drastically different than GW2.
You don't like the game design, payment model, developer, publisher, etc. Don't see you having any point in being here beyond being critical for the sake of it. It's your right, but you haven't accomplished anything.
I simply respond because I find it entertaining
AA looked like a hot mess from the get go, glad I didn't bother with it, sorry you bought in. Looks like you only played it for a month and are still raging about over a year later.
And you can keep spamming blogs about whatever random drivel pops into your head. BDO will not sell anywhere close to GW2 and will need to add cash4currency which can be converted into power.
I am not debating that P2W / RNG can make money. It is the best way to make money quickly, especially if you are not a well known company. It does however ruin the integrity and long term enjoyment of PvP.
You can't pay blizzard $1000 and make your archmage card 100x stronger than other people with the same card, but you will be able to do exactly that in BDO.
BDO has less P2W than AA for at least the 'launch phase', but most of the other major problems are exactly the same in terms of pvp balance. BDO is closer to AA than it is to any other game, so stop comparing it to western games as if they are completely redesigning the game.
Your standards are: people log into game, therefore game = good. There is literally no point in talking to you.
Except thus far nothing in the cash shop is sellable to anyone in the NA/EU version which is different than the korean version. At this point it is purely speculation from you that this is what is going to happen for certain when everything thus far has pointed to p2w being something they'd like to keep off the table in NA/EU thus far... Daum Europe is not Daum Korea and while they may answer to Daum korea they are not the same team nor are they going to target for a korean marketplace when the publisher themselves is a european branch of a korean publisher that employs mostly europeans and knows that p2w isn't as popular in the west and will kill a game that could be profitable over here by adding it.
They have done nothing to show that it will be p2w in the west and everything to show thus far that they are trying to remove any p2w elements period has been done. Anything else is purely speculation at this point based on your inane hatred toward korean games for whatever reason.
Except thus far nothing in the cash shop is sellable to anyone in the NA/EU version which is different than the korean version. At this point it is purely speculation from you that this is what is going to happen for certain when everything thus far has pointed to p2w being something they'd like to keep off the table in NA/EU thus far... Daum Europe is not Daum Korea and while they may answer to Daum korea they are not the same team nor are they going to target for a korean marketplace when the publisher themselves is a european branch of a korean publisher that employs mostly europeans and knows that p2w isn't as popular in the west and will kill a game that could be profitable over here by adding it.
They have done nothing to show that it will be p2w in the west and everything to show thus far that they are trying to remove any p2w elements period has been done. Anything else is purely speculation at this point based on your inane hatred toward korean games for whatever reason.
But but look at AA and how terrible it is!
While I'm not a fool and have two decades of mmo disappointment baggage, still find the crystal ball doom and gloomers to be so silly.
If it happens, it happens. Until then, enjoy the pixels and try to have a little fun.
Oh well, cognitive dissonance is strong in some people.
The MMORPG genre will continue to deteriorate and get raped by greedy manipulative companies because they can clearly get away with it. Shame.
There are folks like myself that simply accept it as it is and realize gaming/life isn't perfect and getting all worked up over pixels at the cost of potential entertainment isn't worth the hassle. We all have different values/standards/limits. A little wasted time/money is of little importance if I get decent entertainment in return, even for a limited time.
Unfortunately there are folks like you that compare gaming to be raped and take it far too seriously. If it is that bad, remove yourself from the equation.
Wasting your time on forums about games/genres you have no hope for yet are still engaging with seems pretty pointless. Still have hope for the industry after little change for 15+ years? Who is fooling themselves?
Except thus far nothing in the cash shop is sellable to anyone in the NA/EU version which is different than the korean version. At this point it is purely speculation from you that this is what is going to happen for certain when everything thus far has pointed to p2w being something they'd like to keep off the table in NA/EU thus far... Daum Europe is not Daum Korea and while they may answer to Daum korea they are not the same team nor are they going to target for a korean marketplace when the publisher themselves is a european branch of a korean publisher that employs mostly europeans and knows that p2w isn't as popular in the west and will kill a game that could be profitable over here by adding it.
They have done nothing to show that it will be p2w in the west and everything to show thus far that they are trying to remove any p2w elements period has been done. Anything else is purely speculation at this point based on your inane hatred toward korean games for whatever reason.
"No tricks, no traps"
Why you people can't understand that AA did exactly the same and hid the worst aspects of its P2W until people were invested is beyond me.
They don't care if going people get mad and leave because the entire point of these games with +99 upgrades and massive vertical stat scaling is to appeal to the whales who spend tens of thousands to be king of the hill. A few bucks here and there is chump change and the whole B2P is just a way to farm the plebs who are dumb enough to believe the marketing copy which is very vauge.
Except thus far nothing in the cash shop is sellable to anyone in the NA/EU version which is different than the korean version. At this point it is purely speculation from you that this is what is going to happen for certain when everything thus far has pointed to p2w being something they'd like to keep off the table in NA/EU thus far... Daum Europe is not Daum Korea and while they may answer to Daum korea they are not the same team nor are they going to target for a korean marketplace when the publisher themselves is a european branch of a korean publisher that employs mostly europeans and knows that p2w isn't as popular in the west and will kill a game that could be profitable over here by adding it.
They have done nothing to show that it will be p2w in the west and everything to show thus far that they are trying to remove any p2w elements period has been done. Anything else is purely speculation at this point based on your inane hatred toward korean games for whatever reason.
But but look at AA and how terrible it is!
While I'm not a fool and have two decades of mmo disappointment baggage, still find the crystal ball doom and gloomers to be so silly.
If it happens, it happens. Until then, enjoy the pixels and try to have a little fun.
AA always had people whining about this and that. Now we have fixes to those problems in BDO and people are whining about the fixes. It is freaking hilarious how the doom and gloom crowd tries this with every single mmorpg and very few have full on died when you consider the multitude released. If BDO can pull in enough people and keep enough for servers + a bit of profit it is likely it will continue operating for a long time.
AA's overall problems weren't even it's "p2w" nature (and i use quotes cuz people were calling it p2w from day 1 of head start). Before a lot of changes were made to AA they still had a problem of faction balance that led to massive issues. Eastern was very clearly favored on many a server (west on some) and while AA has built in tools to manage faction balance Trion didn't bother using them at all so it quickly became a heavily unbalanced game where sheer force of numbers won anything.
Then you had the problem of letting zerg guilds exist and the other problem of allowing housing on the main trade island where you'd go to be able to get things to get ships and other stuff and this created other problems such as a guild literally being able to hold that island and making pvp hard as hell because of disappearing player character models due to all the crap firing off (and this was with a gtx 770 4gb) The game had problems that existed beyond the realm of their cash shop that ultimately killed the fun for a lot of people before any of the RNG stuff came up (which lets face it it is just a different gear progression system vs the other type of rng gear treadmill of heroic (or higher) dungeon / raid runs that may ultimately take just as much time / effort)
The doom and gloom people need to realize that not every game is the same, a company doesn't necessarily operate the same in every region it operates in with gaming etc. The people pointing out "Ohh the game does this, this and this in this region therefore pearl abyss = pay 2 win devs".
First off to clear something up with these people who seem to have no real grasp on the business of video games in general. A game developer DOES NOT decide the monetization method of the game they develop. The monetization is up to who they pick up as a publisher and that publisher in whatever region they decide to do business in will decide how money/profit is to be made using in game methods, they forward this after a deal has been struck and ask for the changes to be made to the game to operate how they need it to in that area after paying for the rights to operate in that region to the game developer who ultimately makes their money through these licensing deals and not by selling items themselves although they may get a cut the better a game does in a specific region profit wise.
Another thing to add in the case of BDO is that Korea and Russian versions of the game have entirely different publishers and that the EU/NA version of the game is being handled by a European based subsidiary of the Korean publisher. Yes, Daum operates under a cash shop heavy infrastructure that may even be pay2win in Korea, their target market in Korea is massively different than their target market inside of EU/NA regions however and many Koreans end up going to gaming cafes to play where the idea of a "sub" on top of having to already pay for time at the gaming cafe is a bit of an asinine idea to these people as they are already paying to access these games to the cafe owners/operators. As such korea has a flourishing cash shop market that is usually tweaked a bit different as they tend to buy differing things vs the west when talking about games. These are target demographics in that region and daum who has only operated in Korea thus far would be completely and utterly stupid not to target a cash shop (even a p2w one in that region)
Then we come to Daum Europe who doing what I just said is talking to Pearl Abyss and saying "Hey we need this this and this changed to be what we feel is the most profitable in this region". They changed the monetization model entirely for the EU/US market and they changed a lot of things in the cash shop and even in how certain systems (like karma) works for it... People need to realize that publishers have a lot of say normally for mmorpgs and games in general (why a lot end up rushed)
Why you people can't understand that AA did exactly the same and hid the worst aspects of its P2W until people were invested is beyond me.
They don't care if going people get mad and leave because the entire point of these games with +99 upgrades and massive vertical stat scaling is to appeal to the whales who spend tens of thousands to be king of the hill. A few bucks here and there is chump change and the whole B2P is just a way to farm the plebs who are dumb enough to believe the marketing copy which is very vauge.
Could you clarify a few facts about AA since that seems to be what has you all worked up?
Which aspects did they hide? While I didn't play, I've read multiple people say the P2W aspects were clear before launch. Those that bought in far in advance I guess would of been out of luck, but Betas had P2W hidden?
How has AA change since launch, you quit a month after release, has it improved over time? Or is a game a failure without possibility to improve?
I also don't fully know what is available in AA shop, but isn't straight power/gear available without reliance on other players? Even this isn't possible on KR. Unless convenience buffs are P2W and which most western games have as well (GW2 I see you).
Which I think is a pretty significant fact. Someone can't just throw cash at the BDO cash shop and become all powerful, they can have more chances at the RNG casino, but beyond that, other people actually have to obtain/upgrade all the gear from actually playing the game as intended that whales then buy off the market.
Again, unless I'm missing something BDO doesn't seem to be a carbon copy of AA in these ways.
Without player to player trading, no way to buy power from 3rd parties or take advantage of the system beyond people willingly grinding away to sell expensive gear for cash shop fluff that they value more. If someone want to exchange 100000 hours of their life for a $20 costume, no problem to me. They could of just as easily used that to beat me down in PVP as I will neither give up on real life nor go broke for a video game.
Why you people can't understand that AA did exactly the same and hid the worst aspects of its P2W until people were invested is beyond me.
They don't care if going people get mad and leave because the entire point of these games with +99 upgrades and massive vertical stat scaling is to appeal to the whales who spend tens of thousands to be king of the hill. A few bucks here and there is chump change and the whole B2P is just a way to farm the plebs who are dumb enough to believe the marketing copy which is very vauge.
Could you clarify a few facts about AA since that seems to be what has you all worked up?
Which aspects did they hide? While I didn't play, I've read multiple people say the P2W aspects were clear before launch. Those that bought in far in advance I guess would of been out of luck, but Betas had P2W hidden?
How has AA change since launch, you quit a month after release, has it improved over time? Or is a game a failure without possibility to improve?
I also don't fully know what is available in AA shop, but isn't straight power/gear available without reliance on other players? Even this isn't possible on KR. Unless convenience buffs are P2W and which most western games have as well (GW2 I see you).
Which I think is a pretty significant fact. Someone can't just throw cash at the BDO cash shop and become all powerful, they can have more chances at the RNG casino, but beyond that, other people actually have to obtain/upgrade all the gear from actually playing the game as intended that whales then buy off the market.
Again, unless I'm missing something BDO doesn't seem to be a carbon copy of AA in these ways.
Without player to player trading, no way to buy power from 3rd parties or take advantage of the system beyond people willingly grinding away to sell expensive gear for cash shop fluff that they value more. If someone want to exchange 100000 hours of their life for a $20 costume, no problem to me. They could of just as easily used that to beat me down in PVP as I will neither give up on real life nor go broke for a video game.
They can't even do that is the thing (putting money into the cash shop to get more chances at RNG that is) at least at launch nothing in the cash shop is sellable on AH and the like so unless that changes over time you won't be able to just throw money at the game to get more powerful, you will need to work at it like everyone else would. At this point they are assuming it will change without any concrete evidence of it.
The only guarantee you have is no selling cash items in the AH for the "launch phase". If you have any experience with MMO PR talk that is basically an admission that it will be in the game.
My prediction is that in one of the first patches they will modify the drop rate of black stones then add an RNG loot crate to the cash shop that contains them (archeum in AA). The P2W will be much more about getting access to crafting materials, energy and upgrade attempts and less about buying gear directly.
The only guarantee you have is no selling cash items in the AH for the "launch phase". If you have any experience with MMO PR talk that is basically an admission that it will be in the game.
My prediction is that in one of the first patches they will modify the drop rate of black stones then add an RNG loot crate to the cash shop that contains them (archeum in AA). The P2W will be much more about getting access to crafting materials, energy and upgrade attempts and less about buying gear directly.
Still purely speculation. Saying At launch doesn't mean anything because maybe they will allow a test of the marketplate before launch that allows for some selling to test out some things before closing it. There are a few ways to take it with "PR Speak" We have not dealt with Daum games at all in the west so stating we know for certain what a company is going to do is asinine. Just because one company does X doesn't mean another company will also do X. To further add to this people seem to leave out the second part of the actual thread they pull this from.
Cash Shop items will not be possible to sell on the marketplace at launch phase
If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace
As is shown here while they may open cash shop items to be sellable in the AH at some point it's looking like they are going to have a max price set for said items that won't let people profit too much off of them. And to further add if you want to toss speculation into the mix they may make it so you can only buy X amount of cash shop items per month or something too.
What you are failing to take into account is the game design. The gear system / stats not only mirrors AA, but hundreds if not thousands of P2W Asian games.
Its is impossible for a game with this system to be successful long term because even without P2W the gear scaling will make the game unplayable for all but the most hardcore. Since the game has this built in self-destruct switch, they will absolutely go P2W because that is how you monetize these types of games. The game is obviously not going to be successful (financially) as B2P.
And BTW the strongest evidence is not AA, but the exact same game in 2 other regions.
What you are failing to take into account is the game design. The gear system / stats not only mirrors AA, but hundreds if not thousands of P2W Asian games.
Its is impossible for a game with this system to be successful long term because even without P2W the gear scaling will make the game unplayable for all but the most hardcore. Since the game has this built in self-destruct switch, they will absolutely go P2W because that is how you monetize these types of games. The game is obviously not going to be successful (financially) as B2P.
And BTW the strongest evidence is not AA, but the exact same game in 2 other regions.
So every single person playing in KR/JP/RU is dumping tons of cash into them?
You are failing to see is that not everyone is concerned about being in the top tier aka minority PVP bracket or that some are able/willing to put in a ton of time/effort to reach such heights without paying.
RMT/Cash shop simply allows one to skip the hassle, but it is not impossible to be "good" and avoid being P2W.
Is it the best system? No, but you are talking in extremes when only a small percent even make it that far. I can log in and see how many lvl X are playing along with how many guilds have which nodes/POI controlled. Find it very hard to believe that every single one of them are entirely P2W.
Allein said You are failing to see is that not everyone is concerned about being in
the top tier aka minority PVP bracket or that some are able/willing to
put in a ton of time/effort to reach such heights without paying.
Correct me if im wrong but they would still be affected by those top tier players since the game is owpvp so those ppl will dominate everything and drive those other ppl out of the game since they can't compete with those players if they don't pay after a while. We all know how much the western pvp audience loves grieving and this game makes it very easy. Btw even if they don't actually make the game officialy p2w at first, ppl will just buy gold from Gold traders like in every other game to get an advantage, the temptation is simply way to big. This gear based owpvp system is inherently flawed and way to easy to exploit or you could also say it was made like this on purpose.
But i think it's fine the game is a korean grinder and was made for this audience, pve players and ppl that don't like unbalanced and gear based open world pvp will leave the game rather quickly since there will be simply no content for them anyway.
People are absolutly delusional these days. Every game will have a cashshop and every game will turn pay to win maybe not at start but later on when income goes down.
Its how mmo's work these days, publishers found a way to generate extra income and they aint letting this source go anymore.
You can stop playing mmo's if you are waiting for a tripple A mmo without this bullshit.
Its sad and bullshit but this is the age and era of cashshops / DLC's / micro transactions.
If you get past this then enjoy while it lasts, join a good guild have fun or just quit mmo's.
People are absolutly delusional these days. Every game will have a cashshop and every game will turn pay to win maybe not at start but later on when income goes down.
Its how mmo's work these days, publishers found a way to generate extra income and they aint letting this source go anymore.
You can stop playing mmo's if you are waiting for a tripple A mmo without this bullshit.
Its sad and bullshit but this is the age and era of cashshops / DLC's / micro transactions.
If you get past this then enjoy while it lasts, join a good guild have fun or just quit mmo's.
That always depends on what you perceive as p2w but there are a lot of games with cash shops that don't really give you a direct advantage like in this game since there are simply no game mechanics to allow that. Generally Asian publishers seem to be the worst by far. For example GW2 and ESO both have cash shops and are as far from p2w as it get's it wouldn't even be possible to turn them into real p2w games.
they are no need to think more, it will be p2win just like archeage, all the system here, the gear upgrade with insane high fail chance, ( the others item so it dont break )
whant more reason ? the team behind the game VINDICTUS
dont complaint when you get fooled yet again, you will get your money removed but when you never learn you deserve that i guess.... did you buy the new ship in star citizen ? the raptor 20111 for only 2000$ ?
Correct me if im wrong but they would still be affected by those top tier players since the game is owpvp so those ppl will dominate everything and drive those other ppl out of the game since they can't compete with those players if they don't pay after a while.
We all know how much the western pvp audience loves grieving and this game makes it very easy. Btw even if they don't actually make the game officialy p2w at first, ppl will just buy gold from Gold traders like in every other game to get an advantage, the temptation is simply way to big. This gear based owpvp system is inherently flawed and way to easy to exploit or you could also say it was made like this on purpose.
But i think it's fine the game is a korean grinder and was made for this audience, pve players and ppl that don't like unbalanced and gear based open world pvp will leave the game rather quickly since there will be simply no content for them anyway.
There isn't player to player trading in BDO, so gold sellers don't exist or at least not real ones that can trade gold, I'm sure someone will fall for a scam.
BDO KR has been out for over a year with plenty of folks still playing and reaching the high end without having to P2W, despite how the cash shop works. Can't buy "power" from the shop itself, only can use it to skip ahead by buying what others have earned the hard way.
You can't be griefed in a OW PVP game if you install and agree to play beyond someone exploiting a flaw and breaking the rules. Being killed in a PVP game is not griefing.
I agree that folks looking for X design will not find it in a Y design game. Every game doesn't have to match the magical perfect design that each individual wants. However, there is quite a lot to BDO beyond PVP, making silver from many different ways is actually what most do with their time.
they are no need to think more, it will be p2win just like archeage, all the system here, the gear upgrade with insane high fail chance, ( the others item so it dont break )
whant more reason ? the team behind the game VINDICTUS
dont complaint when you get fooled yet again, you will get your money removed but when you never learn you deserve that i guess.... did you buy the new ship in star citizen ? the raptor 20111 for only 2000$ ?
I never played Vindictus, but who from the team is running BDO NA/EU?
What someone does with their money shouldn't be a concern to others.
Not my right to go into a WoW forum and tell people they are wasting their time/money on a game I quit 9 years ago.
Someone wants to drop $10k on a video game (plenty do), good for them. Not everyone lives pay check to pay check.
People are absolutly delusional these days. Every game will have a cashshop and every game will turn pay to win maybe not at start but later on when income goes down.
Its how mmo's work these days, publishers found a way to generate extra income and they aint letting this source go anymore.
You can stop playing mmo's if you are waiting for a tripple A mmo without this bullshit.
Its sad and bullshit but this is the age and era of cashshops / DLC's / micro transactions.
If you get past this then enjoy while it lasts, join a good guild have fun or just quit mmo's.
Yeah, but this only happens because of the players, if those who sit and complain actually joined the community and voiced themselves instead of just sit and complain, the game has more of a chance.
To the topic:
I don't real understand when people say, "the games going to go P2W, so i won't play it now". What? This is most likely the reason most games go down that avenue, because sp many players have the same silly thoughts, the game gets no traction and has to find means of making money.
My advice would be people should support a game when it's at its best and not just sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the P2W or F2p transition.
So if this game looks good now support it NOW lol.
Comments
Korea is all about status and looks through wealth, they like nothing more than to show off they have money, including in MMO
look up what the gangnam district is (yes that's where that terrible song is from)
the ability to spend money to change your appearance and show off your wealth in almost every Korean MMO, it not a random coincidence
P2W in Russia? check
Pearl Abyss = P2W company? check
It is delusional to think that they are going to create the next GW2 based on these facts.
Even if the game doesn't go full P2W right away:
RNG crafting + insane vertical stat scaling = dead pvp game
The game already has a BUILT IN LACK OF LONGEVITY which means it MUST go P2W if they want to make a profit since they are not selling millions of boxes.
They will have to do what GW2 and SWTOR have done and allow converting cash into in game currency. The DIFFERENCE is that in BDO this can be converted directly into PVP power which you can't do in western games since the best gear is BOP or in GW2's case has very little vertical scaling.
Stop claiming Pearl Abyss is going to make the next GW2, its IMPOSSIBLE with the current itemization/gear system.
People seem to love RNG with or without ways to get around it. They also love convenience, vanity, fluff crap.
Boxes/Keys are available in many/most? popular online games across multiple genres and bring in a lot of cash from what I understand. While they can be looked at as P2W, if worth while items are .001% or whatever, I don't see it as a huge concern myself.
Hearthstone is a competitive "PVP" game of sorts and has both RNG and P2W. Nets Blizzard millions.
Diablo 3 (maybe it's just Blizzard?) another RNG with in-game casino features that keeps fans coming back.
GW2 is F2P now I believe? I doubt HoT or whatever box sells are keeping them going. Looking at the current shop options, seems like there is much similarity to what they are doing with BDO. We'll pretend nothing in it provides any sort of P2W advantage...
Although BDO =/= GW2. Just as GW2 =/= WoW or insert whatever comparison. Same goes for throwing AA in there.
BDO KR has been going for over a year. Not sure what longevity is exactly, but they don't see to be slowing down with adding content/updates.
It is very possible that BDO NA/EU sells content updates as expansions for $X. I'd pay at least $25+ for Valencia for example. Along with Awakening Weapons or access to over +15 gear. Not a huge difference compared to buying HoT and gaining new content, class, gear, etc. Is it fair to those that want to buy the game and nothing more? Not so much, but they aren't a charity.
You are right to point out the gear stat scaling and it is the only real issue I have. However, if they address it, would remove quite a lot of issue from the game and allow PVP to balance out after a while if the grind to get to the "top" still remains very hard. If +18 is only 5% better than +17 but takes 200% longer to reach, it will be worth it to those that can reach it, but not so much that it is required to compete outside of 1v1 dueling.
Which is why I like passive training in Crowfall. Someone new can reach a decent competitive point relatively quickly, but those with the time/money can get a head. It isn't fair, but isn't crazy unfair either (so far).
Obviously it is a "what if" BDO's scaling is looked at, but as people reach 50+ and +15 gear, I'm assuming all eyes will be on Daum to figure it out. Not going to be day 10 that the issue happens out of no where.
In the end, it is a wait and see situation for those of us that will be or would like to play at some point. I'm taking the risk just as I've done for two decades. I dropped a couple hundred on Crowfall with zero promise of a product I'll even like. Games are for entertainment (me at least) and if they seem like a scam, chore, or unpleasant time, no need to bother yourself with them.
Despite you disliking the KR/BDO/AA whatever model, others do. Great you want to prevent the spread of such evil things, but unfortunately those logging in and funding these products outnumber you quite a bit.
I am not debating that P2W / RNG can make money. It is the best way to make money quickly, especially if you are not a well known company. It does however ruin the integrity and long term enjoyment of PvP.
You can't pay blizzard $1000 and make your archmage card 100x stronger than other people with the same card, but you will be able to do exactly that in BDO.
BDO has less P2W than AA for at least the 'launch phase', but most of the other major problems are exactly the same in terms of pvp balance. BDO is closer to AA than it is to any other game, so stop comparing it to western games as if they are completely redesigning the game.
Your standards are: people log into game, therefore game = good. There is literally no point in talking to you.
"Good" is 100% subjective.
While I type a lot, not sure what I've said that would fall under the drivel spam category, if you aren't able to come up with anything beyond your go to standard of BDO = AA = Bad, it's all find and dandy. I understand that many lack the ability to read/respond to such complex comments with so many words that require you to look beyond your blinders.
BDO doesn't need to sell GW2 numbers just as GW2 doesn't need to sell WoW numbers. Each product is its own bubble. What works or doesn't for one doesn't mean much for the other.
Funny thing however is BDO could follow GW2 and launch B2P, add free content updates, switch to F2P, start selling content updates/expansions, and live off the shop just as GW2 does. Casino is a common part of gaming and not a concern in my eyes. Only real major hurdles are high end gear scaling and RMT, both of which they've said will be looked at before they make it into the game. If they can balance those two, BDO's overall format won't be drastically different than GW2.
You don't like the game design, payment model, developer, publisher, etc. Don't see you having any point in being here beyond being critical for the sake of it. It's your right, but you haven't accomplished anything.
I simply respond because I find it entertaining
AA looked like a hot mess from the get go, glad I didn't bother with it, sorry you bought in. Looks like you only played it for a month and are still raging about over a year later.
They have done nothing to show that it will be p2w in the west and everything to show thus far that they are trying to remove any p2w elements period has been done. Anything else is purely speculation at this point based on your inane hatred toward korean games for whatever reason.
While I'm not a fool and have two decades of mmo disappointment baggage, still find the crystal ball doom and gloomers to be so silly.
If it happens, it happens. Until then, enjoy the pixels and try to have a little fun.
The MMORPG genre will continue to deteriorate and get raped by greedy manipulative companies because they can clearly get away with it.
Shame.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Unfortunately there are folks like you that compare gaming to be raped and take it far too seriously. If it is that bad, remove yourself from the equation.
Wasting your time on forums about games/genres you have no hope for yet are still engaging with seems pretty pointless. Still have hope for the industry after little change for 15+ years? Who is fooling themselves?
Why you people can't understand that AA did exactly the same and hid the worst aspects of its P2W until people were invested is beyond me.
They don't care if going people get mad and leave because the entire point of these games with +99 upgrades and massive vertical stat scaling is to appeal to the whales who spend tens of thousands to be king of the hill. A few bucks here and there is chump change and the whole B2P is just a way to farm the plebs who are dumb enough to believe the marketing copy which is very vauge.
AA's overall problems weren't even it's "p2w" nature (and i use quotes cuz people were calling it p2w from day 1 of head start). Before a lot of changes were made to AA they still had a problem of faction balance that led to massive issues. Eastern was very clearly favored on many a server (west on some) and while AA has built in tools to manage faction balance Trion didn't bother using them at all so it quickly became a heavily unbalanced game where sheer force of numbers won anything.
Then you had the problem of letting zerg guilds exist and the other problem of allowing housing on the main trade island where you'd go to be able to get things to get ships and other stuff and this created other problems such as a guild literally being able to hold that island and making pvp hard as hell because of disappearing player character models due to all the crap firing off (and this was with a gtx 770 4gb) The game had problems that existed beyond the realm of their cash shop that ultimately killed the fun for a lot of people before any of the RNG stuff came up (which lets face it it is just a different gear progression system vs the other type of rng gear treadmill of heroic (or higher) dungeon / raid runs that may ultimately take just as much time / effort)
The doom and gloom people need to realize that not every game is the same, a company doesn't necessarily operate the same in every region it operates in with gaming etc. The people pointing out "Ohh the game does this, this and this in this region therefore pearl abyss = pay 2 win devs".
First off to clear something up with these people who seem to have no real grasp on the business of video games in general. A game developer DOES NOT decide the monetization method of the game they develop. The monetization is up to who they pick up as a publisher and that publisher in whatever region they decide to do business in will decide how money/profit is to be made using in game methods, they forward this after a deal has been struck and ask for the changes to be made to the game to operate how they need it to in that area after paying for the rights to operate in that region to the game developer who ultimately makes their money through these licensing deals and not by selling items themselves although they may get a cut the better a game does in a specific region profit wise.
Another thing to add in the case of BDO is that Korea and Russian versions of the game have entirely different publishers and that the EU/NA version of the game is being handled by a European based subsidiary of the Korean publisher. Yes, Daum operates under a cash shop heavy infrastructure that may even be pay2win in Korea, their target market in Korea is massively different than their target market inside of EU/NA regions however and many Koreans end up going to gaming cafes to play where the idea of a "sub" on top of having to already pay for time at the gaming cafe is a bit of an asinine idea to these people as they are already paying to access these games to the cafe owners/operators. As such korea has a flourishing cash shop market that is usually tweaked a bit different as they tend to buy differing things vs the west when talking about games. These are target demographics in that region and daum who has only operated in Korea thus far would be completely and utterly stupid not to target a cash shop (even a p2w one in that region)
Then we come to Daum Europe who doing what I just said is talking to Pearl Abyss and saying "Hey we need this this and this changed to be what we feel is the most profitable in this region". They changed the monetization model entirely for the EU/US market and they changed a lot of things in the cash shop and even in how certain systems (like karma) works for it... People need to realize that publishers have a lot of say normally for mmorpgs and games in general (why a lot end up rushed)
Which aspects did they hide? While I didn't play, I've read multiple people say the P2W aspects were clear before launch. Those that bought in far in advance I guess would of been out of luck, but Betas had P2W hidden?
How has AA change since launch, you quit a month after release, has it improved over time? Or is a game a failure without possibility to improve?
I also don't fully know what is available in AA shop, but isn't straight power/gear available without reliance on other players? Even this isn't possible on KR. Unless convenience buffs are P2W and which most western games have as well (GW2 I see you).
Which I think is a pretty significant fact. Someone can't just throw cash at the BDO cash shop and become all powerful, they can have more chances at the RNG casino, but beyond that, other people actually have to obtain/upgrade all the gear from actually playing the game as intended that whales then buy off the market.
Again, unless I'm missing something BDO doesn't seem to be a carbon copy of AA in these ways.
Without player to player trading, no way to buy power from 3rd parties or take advantage of the system beyond people willingly grinding away to sell expensive gear for cash shop fluff that they value more. If someone want to exchange 100000 hours of their life for a $20 costume, no problem to me. They could of just as easily used that to beat me down in PVP as I will neither give up on real life nor go broke for a video game.
My prediction is that in one of the first patches they will modify the drop rate of black stones then add an RNG loot crate to the cash shop that contains them (archeum in AA). The P2W will be much more about getting access to crafting materials, energy and upgrade attempts and less about buying gear directly.
- Cash Shop items will not be possible to sell on the marketplace at launch phase
- If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace
As is shown here while they may open cash shop items to be sellable in the AH at some point it's looking like they are going to have a max price set for said items that won't let people profit too much off of them. And to further add if you want to toss speculation into the mix they may make it so you can only buy X amount of cash shop items per month or something too.Its is impossible for a game with this system to be successful long term because even without P2W the gear scaling will make the game unplayable for all but the most hardcore. Since the game has this built in self-destruct switch, they will absolutely go P2W because that is how you monetize these types of games. The game is obviously not going to be successful (financially) as B2P.
And BTW the strongest evidence is not AA, but the exact same game in 2 other regions.
You are failing to see is that not everyone is concerned about being in the top tier aka minority PVP bracket or that some are able/willing to put in a ton of time/effort to reach such heights without paying.
RMT/Cash shop simply allows one to skip the hassle, but it is not impossible to be "good" and avoid being P2W.
Is it the best system? No, but you are talking in extremes when only a small percent even make it that far. I can log in and see how many lvl X are playing along with how many guilds have which nodes/POI controlled. Find it very hard to believe that every single one of them are entirely P2W.
Every game will have a cashshop and every game will turn pay to win maybe not at start but later on when income goes down.
Its how mmo's work these days, publishers found a way to generate extra income and they aint letting this source go anymore.
You can stop playing mmo's if you are waiting for a tripple A mmo without this bullshit.
Its sad and bullshit but this is the age and era of cashshops / DLC's / micro transactions.
If you get past this then enjoy while it lasts, join a good guild have fun or just quit mmo's.
Generally Asian publishers seem to be the worst by far.
For example GW2 and ESO both have cash shops and are as far from p2w as it get's it wouldn't even be possible to turn them into real p2w games.
they are no need to think more, it will be p2win just like archeage, all the system here, the gear upgrade with insane high fail chance, ( the others item so it dont break )
whant more reason ? the team behind the game VINDICTUS
dont complaint when you get fooled yet again, you will get your money removed but when you never learn you deserve that i guess.... did you buy the new ship in star citizen ? the raptor 20111 for only 2000$ ?
BDO KR has been out for over a year with plenty of folks still playing and reaching the high end without having to P2W, despite how the cash shop works. Can't buy "power" from the shop itself, only can use it to skip ahead by buying what others have earned the hard way.
You can't be griefed in a OW PVP game if you install and agree to play beyond someone exploiting a flaw and breaking the rules. Being killed in a PVP game is not griefing.
I agree that folks looking for X design will not find it in a Y design game. Every game doesn't have to match the magical perfect design that each individual wants. However, there is quite a lot to BDO beyond PVP, making silver from many different ways is actually what most do with their time.
I never played Vindictus, but who from the team is running BDO NA/EU?
What someone does with their money shouldn't be a concern to others.
Not my right to go into a WoW forum and tell people they are wasting their time/money on a game I quit 9 years ago.
Someone wants to drop $10k on a video game (plenty do), good for them. Not everyone lives pay check to pay check.
To the topic:
I don't real understand when people say, "the games going to go P2W, so i won't play it now". What? This is most likely the reason most games go down that avenue, because sp many players have the same silly thoughts, the game gets no traction and has to find means of making money.
My advice would be people should support a game when it's at its best and not just sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the P2W or F2p transition.
So if this game looks good now support it NOW lol.