When the endgame is based on PvP with no other content and the fights revolve around 1 shots like AA people leave. Pretty basic concept.
You are probably referring to games like WoW or GW2, but they have loads of other content besides open world PvP and the gear scaling is less of an issue since they are not RNG based systems unlike BDO.
I would also add that open world pvp games where people get killed and respawn 10 feet away with no gain or loss to either side also have poor retention since the PvP is pointless and gets old real quick.
This is a gross distortion and dismissal of the merits of PvP in Black Desert.
You might as well be saying Football gets old quick because all they do is run into a pile and line up again. I get you don't like Football (BDO) and don't really have an understanding of the systems. I don't get why you're posting so passionately and willfully attempting to mislead people.
I'm referring to any MMO in the history of MMOS that has ever had open world PVP. The guy in the best gear wins. It's always been that way, and it hasn't been a "built in self-destruct switch" for any of them.
But the point is how difficult is it to acquire the best gear / stats.
In an RNG based crafting casino system it is incredibly difficult and based on luck. Even worse is that in most pvp games there are diminishing returns unlike BDO where gear scales exponentially. You don't just get a little stronger with better gear, you get 2-4x+ better stats.
The average player will not even be able to damage highly geared grinders and the only way to catch up is to go through an RNG crafting casino. A string of bad luck resulting in failed crafting attempts could mean weeks of wasted farming time. This is why cash shops are so profitable in PvP games.
You are just reaching for lowest common denominator points and showing a clear lack of understanding around PvP design concepts.
Here is my problem with you guys. You literally have 0 proof that this game will turn out to be like Archeage. You basically WANT it to so that you can say you were right. It's my problem with the MMORPG community in general as a community we seem to like failure much more than success.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check P2W in Japan? check Pearl Abyss is a P2W mobile conglomerate? check
These are the facts.
The reason we talk about AA is because Daum is using very similar tactics to mislead / lie about how the game will be monetized.
As I've stated, don't read Daum's marketing posts. Look at the actual game mechanics which mirror every P2W Asian game ever.
Proof...? I've been googling for 10 minutes or so about Pearl Abyss and I can't find anything about another game they've made. Who knows you could be right and I'm just not finding the right place. The closest i've found is that the guy who is in charge of Pearl came from nhn games.
I'm not saying you're wrong that it wont be pay to win, and who knows maybe thats like 2 months away. I'm just saying that in general there seems to be a lot of this, "we want this game to fail and to be pay 2 win asap so we can throw it on the heap of other korean games."
I read the links about stats on costumes and pet benefits, and while I agree that those things are a concern to have it doesn't seem like either of those are pay to win right off the bat.
I guess my question is this, if you sit back and look at this game do you want it to be a good game? Or have you already made up your mind that it won't ever be a good game?
Maybe it's not you but I read a few posts on this thread that basically came out to, "I can't wait for this game to be pay 2 win so I can see people complain about it." I think there is constructive criticism and legit concerns to be had with any game, any dev, from any market but I'd rather that people who generally either don't care or are actively opposed to a game because of what ever reason just stop and go do something else. At some point it takes away from true constructive criticism.
I'm referring to any MMO in the history of MMOS that has ever had open world PVP. The guy in the best gear wins. It's always been that way, and it hasn't been a "built in self-destruct switch" for any of them.
But the point is how difficult is it to acquire the best gear / stats.
In an RNG based crafting casino system it is incredibly difficult and based on luck. Even worse is that in most pvp games there are diminishing returns unlike BDO where gear scales exponentially. You don't just get a little stronger with better gear, you get 2-4x+ better stats.
The average player will not even be able to damage highly geared grinders and the only way to catch up is to go through an RNG crafting casino. A string of bad luck resulting in failed crafting attempts could mean weeks of wasted farming time. This is why cash shops are so profitable in PvP games.
You are just reaching for lowest common denominator points and showing a clear lack of understanding around PvP design concepts.
To me it comes down to the fact that I've read from people that have actually played the game for a long time saying the disparity is not that big of a deal and it doesn't impact their gameplay.
I'll take their word over your theories, especially since you've never played the game yourself.
Theories lol. The game has already tanked in those regions so using them as an example of the game doing well is silly. The sane people left a long time ago.
I don't even get why you like this game so much if you aren't a pvp enthusiast. There is literally no content beyond farming for crafting attempts. The crafting itself is all instanced and doesn't do anything to affect the world. You will just be bored after the new game smell wears off.
From what I've heard P2W might not even be the worst thing about the game. The lack of content makes people leave long before the gear scaling is ever really a factor.
GVG is easy to dodge, node wars are pretty meh, and nobody cares about sieges since they rarely happen. All you do is log in, farm for a bit, try your luck at the slot machines then leave. Its to much like an actual job.
Theories lol. The game has already tanked in those regions so using them as an example of the game doing well is silly. The sane people left a long time ago.
I don't even get why you like this game so much if you aren't a pvp enthusiast. There is literally no content beyond farming for crafting attempts. The crafting itself is all instanced and doesn't do anything to affect the world. You will just be bored after the new game smell wears off.
From what I've heard P2W might not even be the worst thing about the game. The lack of content makes people leave long before the gear scaling is ever really a factor.
GVG is easy to dodge, node wars are pretty meh, and nobody cares about sieges since they rarely happen. All you do is log in, farm for a bit, try your luck at the slot machines then leave. Its to much like an actual job.
They are just theories. You've never once played the game, but you're convinced you know everything about it.
The only thing you've done for the past 3 months on this website is try to prove that Black Desert is going to be a bad game. Literally- I looked at your post history.
And you've never once played it. What is up with that?
Dunno maybe this fully gear based PVP games are just not for me i like my pvp fair and square.
Which is great and why we have so many different types of games. There simply isn't one size fits all.
League having more players than all mmorpgs combined isn't a mystery.
BDO at launch will be "fair and square" for a while. However depending on what they do with future upgrading/scaling, will determine how the balance or lack of it will turn out. They could easily make it less gear based or at least not as easy to obtain through P2W means without having to redesign the game or go broke. At this point, I'm willing to take the risk of it not going so well for the value it offers at launch.
Not sure I said AA was "bad" as that is subjective, however I did see issues actually happening pre-launch, not using my magical crystal ball as you are for BDO.
Issues I saw/read others have: Patron advantage over F2P, P2W shop from day one, Gold Sellers/Bots from day one feeding the P2W system, limited world space, not much to balance PVE vs PVP players, etc.
Personal reasons: Didn't like the art style, tab target, kind of blah overall world.
If you ignored all that and decided to give it a go anyway, welcome to being a reasonable gamer land. If you some how didn't see any of that, not sure what game you were looking at or how you lasted a whole month in it. Regardless of what happened after launch, there was plenty prior to send up red flags for me.
I don't have to play a game to know what it offers....unless you are saying you don't know how BDO works as you don't play it.
To think you can be a "hardcore" competitive PVPer in a game with so many balance issues as AA is a joke.
OW PVP MMORPG's are not designed for high end competitive "fair" play and there is always a way to gain advantage outside of skill. EQ, DAoC, AoC, AC, WAR, WoW, Aion, UO, GW2 WvW, ESO, SB, DF, MO, a few I've tried over the years. None of these games rely 100% on skill of the individual or group.
There will be no sinking feeling as I fully accept that BDO could go P2W or that they might not adjust the gear scaling. You continue to believe that you are the only one able to see such things. I just don't care and will enjoy the game as long as I can until it becomes something I don't want to play. That is how gaming works.
I'm in a guild focused on PVP for BDO and have been in every game I've played. Not sure what your version of "hardcore" is exactly, but I'm not playing to lose or pick flowers. However I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if I die or give up on real life to stay competitive. If that's your deal, sadface. Gaming isn't that serious to me and if that makes me "casual" oh well.
Enjoy your super duper skill based competitive hardcore PVP mmorpg. Doesn't exist, but you keep playing
Jacobin said: When the game turns into whales or 24/7 grinders 1 shoting everybody it dies. BDO will eventually turn into this even without P2W based on the gear scaling (A +15 weapon is 4 times stronger than a +7).
There is a reason why upcoming western pvp games (camelot unchained, crowfall) have a huge emphasis on horizontal stat scaling and soft caps.
Anyone that wants to be active in BDO PVP can relatively easily reach +15 gear. What they do past that is unknown at this point beyond fortunetellers like yourself.
Do you know how difficult it is to go from +7 to +15 by chance?
There is a reason CF is selling VIP and will have RMT as well. Those that comes down the line are going to have a time based disadvantage which will cause issues, what or how bad is unknown. Unless of course unlocking a bunch of skills in a horizontal system provides little benefit over someone brand new...
Theories lol. The game has already tanked in those regions so using them as an example of the game doing well is silly. The sane people left a long time ago.
I don't even get why you like this game so much if you aren't a pvp enthusiast. There is literally no content beyond farming for crafting attempts. The crafting itself is all instanced and doesn't do anything to affect the world. You will just be bored after the new game smell wears off.
From what I've heard P2W might not even be the worst thing about the game. The lack of content makes people leave long before the gear scaling is ever really a factor.
GVG is easy to dodge, node wars are pretty meh, and nobody cares about sieges since they rarely happen. All you do is log in, farm for a bit, try your luck at the slot machines then leave. Its to much like an actual job.
Wow.
Someone is trying REALLY hard to convince himself not to play the game out of fear of being disappointing again. That's the only conclusion I can get from your worked up stance about this game.
To say there is LITERALLY no content outside of instanced farming for crafting attempts shows how blinded you by your hate and baggage.
Step back, take a breath, it's okay.
I'm sure you are one of the folks that claims a game is amazing until you don't like it anymore and then it is instant garbage.
BDO has tanked, sane people left, be bored after new smell wears off. So much funny.
The fact that you have such a limited understanding of the game yet claim to know it's future and how similar it is to AA is hilarious.
Keep it up though, I am entertained.
Two weeks until launch, can't wait to see all you negative folks telling us you told us so.
Very curious how long you plan to spread you negativity about this game?
Do you have an endgame for your hardcore PVP against BDO?
The main complaints about the game are that its way to grindy and has no content.
Please do share what all of this amazing endgame content is - and make sure you tell the players in Korea, Russia and Japan since they couldn't seem to find it. BTW gratz on playing the Korean mode for 2 hours, it has clearly made you an expert.
The funny part to me is that you keep claiming I think I have some special knowledge when the truth is that I am explaining very basic, well understood pvp design concepts to fanboys who come across as clueless children.
This ignorance/denial is the reason P2W continues to be profitable.
You are the one trying to convince yourself that you are not part of the problem. You keep saying you are well aware that you are probably driving off a cliff, but will go ahead and do it anyways. There is no point in further discussion with people like that.
Here is my problem with you guys. You literally have 0 proof that this game will turn out to be like Archeage. You basically WANT it to so that you can say you were right. It's my problem with the MMORPG community in general as a community we seem to like failure much more than success.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check P2W in Japan? check Pearl Abyss is a P2W mobile conglomerate? check
These are the facts.
The reason we talk about AA is because Daum is using very similar tactics to mislead / lie about how the game will be monetized.
As I've stated, don't read Daum's marketing posts. Look at the actual game mechanics which mirror every P2W Asian game ever.
I'm still waiting for proof that Pearl Abyss is a p2w mobile conglomerate since you said that was a fact. I've spent upwards of 30 minutes on google trying to figure out if that is true or not and not having any luck...
But honestly after reading a lot of you're posts I kind of think you might just be trolling...
And I have no idea what the amount of players are in russia but I never have had any problem finding people...
The main complaints about the game are that its way to grindy and has no content.
Please do share what all of this amazing endgame content is - and make sure you tell the players in Korea, Russia and Japan since they couldn't seem to find it. BTW gratz on playing the Korean mode for 2 hours, it has clearly made you an expert.
The funny part to me is that you keep claiming I think I have some special knowledge when the truth is that I am explaining very basic, well understood pvp design concepts to fanboys who come across as clueless children.
This ignorance/denial is the reason P2W continues to be profitable.
You are the one trying to convince yourself that you are not part of the problem. You keep saying you are well aware that you are probably driving off a cliff, but will go ahead and do it anyways. There is no point in further discussion with people like that.
Seriously what did this game or people interested in this game do to you? Or do you always talk like a jackass throwing in insults and calling names whenever possible?
Anyway, I went ahead and asked people on reddit what they did at endgame. One person replied with:
Node Wars: Every Wednesday and Sunday Guild Wars: Constantly Guild Quests: Sometimes takes hours Go Whaling: Hunting 5 or 6 whales will take 1hr-2 hrs Go Grinding: However much time you want to spend Raise my Farm: 10 min every few hours Trade Runs: 30min- 1 hr per run, 2x a day Arena: 30 min - 2 or 3 hrs every few days Fish: while I afk Process: while i AFK Cook: while AFK Horseriding: while AFK Dailies: once/day takes 45-60 min to do all of mine ~ 1600 CP Do world bosses: karanda 1x day, kzaka 2x per day, nubell 2x per day literally don't have enough time in a day to do what i want to do
Seems like there's plenty to do at endgame.
You're full of theories and "pvp design concepts", but you've never played the game and you have no idea what it's actually like in practice. It's really quite hilarious how you've been trolling this forum, basically just this thread, for 3 months, saying this or that is going to cause the game to implode.
Meanwhile there are people enjoying the game.
Maybe, just maybe, there isn't that big of a market for sandbox MMOs and that's part of why it's not doing super great in other regions. It doesn't mean it can't be a great game for some people.
The main complaints about the game are that its way to grindy and has no content.
There is no point in further discussion with people like that.
BDO is grindy, just like every other mmos I've ever played or heard of. Each has a different means/design but all remain basically the same. This goes for MMORPG, FPS, CCG, MOBA, etc. Log in, do something to get something, repeat. Be it gold, gear, lvls, kills, ranks, skills, skins, whatever.
For me, BDO's combat and world design make this less painful than some games I've played but it isn't for everyone.
I'm by no means an expert of BDO, but I believe I've played it longer than you played AA, so there is that.
You are explaining your subjective view of game concepts that don't exactly match up with specifics of this particular game. There is overlap between them all, but you are cherry picking to fit your opinion. Anything can happen but you are making claims as if they are 100% going to happen which is silly.
Few things you can do in BDO once you make it to lvl 50 or sooner depending on your route:
Continue past 50 on the way to 56 for Awakening Weapon.
Grind/Hunt for elite mobs for rare drop gear.
Kill world bosses.
Grind for silver to obtain/upgrade gear.
Grind for skill points to unlock more skills/tiers.
Complete quests (daily, one time, repeatable) for Contribution/Drops.
Do summon scrolls/disco balls for boss mobs and drops.
Explore the world and find all the "hidden" spots, npcs, quests.
Unlock titles which can provide buffs.
Tame/Breed horses.
Horse races.
Make Boats, Fish, hunt Whales.
Make Trade Packs, Wagons/Carts and do Trade Stuff.
Level up Stamina/Weight/Horse/Pets.
Plant a farm and farm.
Master one of the crafting skills (cooking, alchemy, gear, gathering).
Connect nodes, obtain buildings, upgrade buildings, hire workers, make them do stuff, do stuff with that stuff.
Play house and decorate your house(s) which can provide buffs.
PVP/GVG in various shaped and sizes. Arena duel, 3v3, 30vs30, node war, siege, open world, etc.
Collect Bounties on player heads.
As much is shared between characters, very easy to lvl up others.
Sure there is more, but that's the default list I give when people don't know what to do.
If you consider all of this NO content not sure what else I can say. You clearly live in tunnel vision land so I'm sure if a game doesn't have X exactly how you like, then it sucks.
Coming into the forum of a game and trashing it along with fans is pretty pointless. As I've asked, what do you think you'll accomplish? Maybe you'll save one poor soul not bright enough to see all the terrible things to come? Thank you for being a gaming good samaritan?
For $30 be it someone is HARDCORE! or casual, the game offers quite a lot to do. It isn't for everyone and people will get bored and go back to WoW or forums or League. Is what it is. It's not meant to be the savior for competitive PVPers everywhere or candy land for PVE folks.
Could you give some examples of what a good game looks like that is free of issues? Clearly you are currently playing it instead of wasting your time on this forum...
In response to my earlier question (Enchanting) I can use the cash shop to improve my enchanting's chance for success?
Not for the "launch phase" but they will almost certainly be selling upgrade materials (black stones) in RNG loot crates and adding an item that improves RNG crafting success rate.
Can you link where this was actually stated by the publisher? I tried to find it and all I found were Reddit posts where other people were also looking for clarification on this question. All I found was the same conspicuously vague wording about what is in the cash shop (Says nothing about what won't be). The give us a very short list of what's in the shop and I think there is no way that is an exhaustive comprehensive list of every item for sale. If it is, GREAT! But I can't seem to confirm that. It's what they aren't saying that concerns me more.
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
In response to my earlier question (Enchanting) I can use the cash shop to improve my enchanting's chance for success?
Not for the "launch phase" but they will almost certainly be selling upgrade materials (black stones) in RNG loot crates and adding an item that improves RNG crafting success rate.
Can you link where this was actually stated by the publisher? I tried to find it and all I found were Reddit posts where other people were also looking for clarification on this question. All I found was the same conspicuously vague wording about what is in the cash shop (Says nothing about what won't be). The give us a very short list of what's in the shop and I think there is no way that is an exhaustive comprehensive list of every item for sale. If it is, GREAT! But I can't seem to confirm that. It's what they aren't saying that concerns me more.
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
From an interview with a Dev a little bit ago:
"Items such as the "Shout to Augsburg", an item that was included as bonus in some cash shop packages, has been removed for our service. (This item could be used to increase your chances in succeeding your upgrade attempts of equipment) "
Guild Quests: Sometimes takes hours Go Whaling: Hunting 5 or 6 whales will take 1hr-2 hrs Go Grinding: However much time you want to spend Raise my Farm: 10 min every few hours Trade Runs: 30min- 1 hr per run, 2x a day Arena: 30 min - 2 or 3 hrs every few days Fish: while I afk Process: while i AFK Cook: while AFK Horseriding: while AFK Dailies: once/day takes 45-60 min to do all of mine ~ 1600 CP Do world bosses: karanda 1x day, kzaka 2x per day, nubell 2x per day literally don't have enough time in a day to do what i want to do
Guild Quests - grind Go Grinding - grind Fish - AFK grind Process - AFK grind Cook - AFK grind Dailies - grind Word Bosses - tank and spank / grind
Node Wars - giant cluster f*** due to mega server GvG - Easy to dodge due to mega server Arena - just a place to show off your gear, game is not balanced to 1v1
Horse Riding - not endgame content lol
None of what you have described is compelling endgame content and listing AFK crafting as endgame content is acutally hilarious.
Basically all of the activities involve grinding out silver to spend on gear upgrades for PvP that barely exists due to the mega server problems.
There isn't even a zone where you can 24/7 pvp without karma loss. At least AA had the ocean/Halcyona/War zones.
The only potentially good endgame activity I see is GvG against willing opponents. The problem is that there really isn't much to it other than random fights around the map. You can't kick them out of an area, just kill and spawn camp until you get bored and leave.
I guess the leaderboard shows KDR, but thats the type of thing Asian games use to motivate people to keep grinding / P2W.
In response to my earlier question (Enchanting) I can use the cash shop to improve my enchanting's chance for success?
Not for the "launch phase" but they will almost certainly be selling upgrade materials (black stones) in RNG loot crates and adding an item that improves RNG crafting success rate.
Can you link where this was actually stated by the publisher? I tried to find it and all I found were Reddit posts where other people were also looking for clarification on this question. All I found was the same conspicuously vague wording about what is in the cash shop (Says nothing about what won't be). The give us a very short list of what's in the shop and I think there is no way that is an exhaustive comprehensive list of every item for sale. If it is, GREAT! But I can't seem to confirm that. It's what they aren't saying that concerns me more.
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
From an interview with a Dev a little bit ago:
"Items such as the "Shout to Augsburg", an item that was included as bonus in some cash shop packages, has been removed for our service. (This item could be used to increase your chances in succeeding your upgrade attempts of equipment) "
Great! Thanks! Was that the only item available to achieve that result? If it was, I'll admit that sounds a little more promising. At least for as long as such items remain out of service.
In response to my earlier question (Enchanting) I can use the cash shop to improve my enchanting's chance for success?
Not for the "launch phase" but they will almost certainly be selling upgrade materials (black stones) in RNG loot crates and adding an item that improves RNG crafting success rate.
Can you link where this was actually stated by the publisher? I tried to find it and all I found were Reddit posts where other people were also looking for clarification on this question. All I found was the same conspicuously vague wording about what is in the cash shop (Says nothing about what won't be). The give us a very short list of what's in the shop and I think there is no way that is an exhaustive comprehensive list of every item for sale. If it is, GREAT! But I can't seem to confirm that. It's what they aren't saying that concerns me more.
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
From an interview with a Dev a little bit ago:
"Items such as the "Shout to Augsburg", an item that was included as bonus in some cash shop packages, has been removed for our service. (This item could be used to increase your chances in succeeding your upgrade attempts of equipment) "
No mention that they will not put these kinds of items back into the shop after release. F2P games have a dark history of bait and switch. I can't count how many I have played that stated they would never put anything but cosmetic items in their shops and then.......
I can assure you that most cash shop developers have no integrity and could care less about the integrity of their game if it diminishes the monetary return they expect from the game, even if it isn't deserved or earned.
Here is my problem with you guys. You literally have 0 proof that this game will turn out to be like Archeage. You basically WANT it to so that you can say you were right. It's my problem with the MMORPG community in general as a community we seem to like failure much more than success.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check P2W in Japan? check Pearl Abyss is a P2W mobile conglomerate? check
These are the facts.
The reason we talk about AA is because Daum is using very similar tactics to mislead / lie about how the game will be monetized.
As I've stated, don't read Daum's marketing posts. Look at the actual game mechanics which mirror every P2W Asian game ever.
I'm still waiting for proof that Pearl Abyss is a p2w mobile conglomerate since you said that was a fact. I've spent upwards of 30 minutes on google trying to figure out if that is true or not and not having any luck...
But honestly after reading a lot of you're posts I kind of think you might just be trolling...
And I have no idea what the amount of players are in russia but I never have had any problem finding people...
They are not, Pearl Abyss was established in September 2010 as a Korean stand-alone
game development company, targeting MMORPG users worldwide. They have
created and developed Continent of the Ninth, also known as the MMORPG C9 (This game is heavily p2w btw). They a have a publishing deal (or something similar) with Daum Co Ltd for the game Black Desert online which are part of Kakao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakao a huge multi billion Dollar tech company they have a shit ton of sub companys ofc mobile gaming as well it's huge in Asia.
Here is my problem with you guys. You literally have 0 proof that this game will turn out to be like Archeage. You basically WANT it to so that you can say you were right. It's my problem with the MMORPG community in general as a community we seem to like failure much more than success.
P2W in Korea? check P2W in Russia? check P2W in Japan? check Pearl Abyss is a P2W mobile conglomerate? check
These are the facts.
The reason we talk about AA is because Daum is using very similar tactics to mislead / lie about how the game will be monetized.
As I've stated, don't read Daum's marketing posts. Look at the actual game mechanics which mirror every P2W Asian game ever.
I'm still waiting for proof that Pearl Abyss is a p2w mobile conglomerate since you said that was a fact. I've spent upwards of 30 minutes on google trying to figure out if that is true or not and not having any luck...
But honestly after reading a lot of you're posts I kind of think you might just be trolling...
And I have no idea what the amount of players are in russia but I never have had any problem finding people...
They are not, Pearl Abyss was established in September 2010 as a Korean stand-alone
game development company, targeting MMORPG users worldwide. They have
created and developed Continent of the Ninth, also known as the MMORPG C9 (This game is heavily p2w btw). They a have a publishing deal (or something similar) with Daum Co Ltd for the game Black Desert online which are part of Kakao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakao a huge multi billion Dollar tech company they have a shit ton of sub companys ofc mobile gaming as well it's huge in Asia.
Thank you for the information, it's good to be informed.
Guild Quests: Sometimes takes hours Go Whaling: Hunting 5 or 6 whales will take 1hr-2 hrs Go Grinding: However much time you want to spend Raise my Farm: 10 min every few hours Trade Runs: 30min- 1 hr per run, 2x a day Arena: 30 min - 2 or 3 hrs every few days Fish: while I afk Process: while i AFK Cook: while AFK Horseriding: while AFK Dailies: once/day takes 45-60 min to do all of mine ~ 1600 CP Do world bosses: karanda 1x day, kzaka 2x per day, nubell 2x per day literally don't have enough time in a day to do what i want to do
Guild Quests - grind Go Grinding - grind Fish - AFK grind Process - AFK grind Cook - AFK grind Dailies - grind Word Bosses - tank and spank / grind
Node Wars - giant cluster f*** due to mega server GvG - Easy to dodge due to mega server Arena - just a place to show off your gear, game is not balanced to 1v1
Horse Riding - not endgame content lol
None of what you have described is compelling endgame content and listing AFK crafting as endgame content is acutally hilarious.
Basically all of the activities involve grinding out silver to spend on gear upgrades for PvP that barely exists due to the mega server problems.
There isn't even a zone where you can 24/7 pvp without karma loss. At least AA had the ocean/Halcyona/War zones.
The only potentially good endgame activity I see is GvG against willing opponents. The problem is that there really isn't much to it other than random fights around the map. You can't kick them out of an area, just kill and spawn camp until you get bored and leave.
I guess the leaderboard shows KDR, but thats the type of thing Asian games use to motivate people to keep grinding / P2W.
Dungeon/Raids- grind
All MMO endgame is grind, man. You don't know that?
Only thing missing compared to standard MMOs is the lack of dungeons/raids, but in Black Desert there are other things that themeparks don't have- like Whale hunting, gardening, trading, guild wars etc. Dungeons/raids aren't too compelling for me, so I won't miss them in Black Desert.
At this point I'm going to stop responding to you in this thread. The only thing you've done for the past 3 months is troll this thread and I feel like I'm just feeding a troll by responding.
In response to my earlier question (Enchanting) I can use the cash shop to improve my enchanting's chance for success?
Not for the "launch phase" but they will almost certainly be selling upgrade materials (black stones) in RNG loot crates and adding an item that improves RNG crafting success rate.
Can you link where this was actually stated by the publisher? I tried to find it and all I found were Reddit posts where other people were also looking for clarification on this question. All I found was the same conspicuously vague wording about what is in the cash shop (Says nothing about what won't be). The give us a very short list of what's in the shop and I think there is no way that is an exhaustive comprehensive list of every item for sale. If it is, GREAT! But I can't seem to confirm that. It's what they aren't saying that concerns me more.
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
From an interview with a Dev a little bit ago:
"Items such as the "Shout to Augsburg", an item that was included as bonus in some cash shop packages, has been removed for our service. (This item could be used to increase your chances in succeeding your upgrade attempts of equipment) "
Great! Thanks! Was that the only item available to achieve that result? If it was, I'll admit that sounds a little more promising. At least for as long as such items remain out of service.
Yes as far as I know, that was the only item to increase upgrade chance.
I agree it's a very good thing it won't be in our version.
At this point I'm going to stop responding to you in this thread. The only thing you've done for the past 3 months is troll this thread and I feel like I'm just feeding a troll by responding.
But it's so fun
I find people interesting and he is no exception.
13 days and counting and I won't be wasting my time responding to such negative nancys. Till then, they are good for a laugh or two.
For all the issues that Reddit might have, I appreciate that folks like him get down voted to nothing rather quickly when they don't actually have anything of worth to add beyond their disgruntled baggage. Here they seem to just drag it on for so long without accomplishing much as they kept being fed.
Comments
You might as well be saying Football gets old quick because all they do is run into a pile and line up again. I get you don't like Football (BDO) and don't really have an understanding of the systems. I don't get why you're posting so passionately and willfully attempting to mislead people.
In an RNG based crafting casino system it is incredibly difficult and based on luck. Even worse is that in most pvp games there are diminishing returns unlike BDO where gear scales exponentially. You don't just get a little stronger with better gear, you get 2-4x+ better stats.
The average player will not even be able to damage highly geared grinders and the only way to catch up is to go through an RNG crafting casino. A string of bad luck resulting in failed crafting attempts could mean weeks of wasted farming time. This is why cash shops are so profitable in PvP games.
You are just reaching for lowest common denominator points and showing a clear lack of understanding around PvP design concepts.
I'm not saying you're wrong that it wont be pay to win, and who knows maybe thats like 2 months away. I'm just saying that in general there seems to be a lot of this, "we want this game to fail and to be pay 2 win asap so we can throw it on the heap of other korean games."
I read the links about stats on costumes and pet benefits, and while I agree that those things are a concern to have it doesn't seem like either of those are pay to win right off the bat.
I guess my question is this, if you sit back and look at this game do you want it to be a good game? Or have you already made up your mind that it won't ever be a good game?
Maybe it's not you but I read a few posts on this thread that basically came out to, "I can't wait for this game to be pay 2 win so I can see people complain about it." I think there is constructive criticism and legit concerns to be had with any game, any dev, from any market but I'd rather that people who generally either don't care or are actively opposed to a game because of what ever reason just stop and go do something else. At some point it takes away from true constructive criticism.
I'll take their word over your theories, especially since you've never played the game yourself.
I don't even get why you like this game so much if you aren't a pvp enthusiast. There is literally no content beyond farming for crafting attempts. The crafting itself is all instanced and doesn't do anything to affect the world. You will just be bored after the new game smell wears off.
From what I've heard P2W might not even be the worst thing about the game. The lack of content makes people leave long before the gear scaling is ever really a factor.
GVG is easy to dodge, node wars are pretty meh, and nobody cares about sieges since they rarely happen. All you do is log in, farm for a bit, try your luck at the slot machines then leave. Its to much like an actual job.
The only thing you've done for the past 3 months on this website is try to prove that Black Desert is going to be a bad game. Literally- I looked at your post history.
And you've never once played it. What is up with that?
League having more players than all mmorpgs combined isn't a mystery.
BDO at launch will be "fair and square" for a while. However depending on what they do with future upgrading/scaling, will determine how the balance or lack of it will turn out. They could easily make it less gear based or at least not as easy to obtain through P2W means without having to redesign the game or go broke. At this point, I'm willing to take the risk of it not going so well for the value it offers at launch.
Not sure I said AA was "bad" as that is subjective, however I did see issues actually happening pre-launch, not using my magical crystal ball as you are for BDO.
Issues I saw/read others have: Patron advantage over F2P, P2W shop from day one, Gold Sellers/Bots from day one feeding the P2W system, limited world space, not much to balance PVE vs PVP players, etc.
Personal reasons: Didn't like the art style, tab target, kind of blah overall world.
If you ignored all that and decided to give it a go anyway, welcome to being a reasonable gamer land. If you some how didn't see any of that, not sure what game you were looking at or how you lasted a whole month in it. Regardless of what happened after launch, there was plenty prior to send up red flags for me.
I don't have to play a game to know what it offers....unless you are saying you don't know how BDO works as you don't play it.
To think you can be a "hardcore" competitive PVPer in a game with so many balance issues as AA is a joke.
OW PVP MMORPG's are not designed for high end competitive "fair" play and there is always a way to gain advantage outside of skill. EQ, DAoC, AoC, AC, WAR, WoW, Aion, UO, GW2 WvW, ESO, SB, DF, MO, a few I've tried over the years. None of these games rely 100% on skill of the individual or group.
There will be no sinking feeling as I fully accept that BDO could go P2W or that they might not adjust the gear scaling. You continue to believe that you are the only one able to see such things. I just don't care and will enjoy the game as long as I can until it becomes something I don't want to play. That is how gaming works.
I'm in a guild focused on PVP for BDO and have been in every game I've played. Not sure what your version of "hardcore" is exactly, but I'm not playing to lose or pick flowers. However I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if I die or give up on real life to stay competitive. If that's your deal, sadface. Gaming isn't that serious to me and if that makes me "casual" oh well.
Enjoy your super duper skill based competitive hardcore PVP mmorpg. Doesn't exist, but you keep playing
Do you know how difficult it is to go from +7 to +15 by chance?
There is a reason CF is selling VIP and will have RMT as well. Those that comes down the line are going to have a time based disadvantage which will cause issues, what or how bad is unknown. Unless of course unlocking a bunch of skills in a horizontal system provides little benefit over someone brand new...
Someone is trying REALLY hard to convince himself not to play the game out of fear of being disappointing again. That's the only conclusion I can get from your worked up stance about this game.
To say there is LITERALLY no content outside of instanced farming for crafting attempts shows how blinded you by your hate and baggage.
Step back, take a breath, it's okay.
I'm sure you are one of the folks that claims a game is amazing until you don't like it anymore and then it is instant garbage.
BDO has tanked, sane people left, be bored after new smell wears off. So much funny.
The fact that you have such a limited understanding of the game yet claim to know it's future and how similar it is to AA is hilarious.
Keep it up though, I am entertained.
Two weeks until launch, can't wait to see all you negative folks telling us you told us so.
Very curious how long you plan to spread you negativity about this game?
Do you have an endgame for your hardcore PVP against BDO?
Please do share what all of this amazing endgame content is - and make sure you tell the players in Korea, Russia and Japan since they couldn't seem to find it. BTW gratz on playing the Korean mode for 2 hours, it has clearly made you an expert.
The funny part to me is that you keep claiming I think I have some special knowledge when the truth is that I am explaining very basic, well understood pvp design concepts to fanboys who come across as clueless children.
This ignorance/denial is the reason P2W continues to be profitable.
You are the one trying to convince yourself that you are not part of the problem. You keep saying you are well aware that you are probably driving off a cliff, but will go ahead and do it anyways. There is no point in further discussion with people like that.
But honestly after reading a lot of you're posts I kind of think you might just be trolling...
And I have no idea what the amount of players are in russia but I never have had any problem finding people...
Anyway, I went ahead and asked people on reddit what they did at endgame. One person replied with:
Node Wars: Every Wednesday and Sunday
Guild Wars: Constantly
Guild Quests: Sometimes takes hours
Go Whaling: Hunting 5 or 6 whales will take 1hr-2 hrs
Go Grinding: However much time you want to spend
Raise my Farm: 10 min every few hours
Trade Runs: 30min- 1 hr per run, 2x a day
Arena: 30 min - 2 or 3 hrs every few days
Fish: while I afk
Process: while i AFK
Cook: while AFK
Horseriding: while AFK
Dailies: once/day takes 45-60 min to do all of mine ~ 1600 CP
Do world bosses: karanda 1x day, kzaka 2x per day, nubell 2x per day
literally don't have enough time in a day to do what i want to do
Seems like there's plenty to do at endgame.
You're full of theories and "pvp design concepts", but you've never played the game and you have no idea what it's actually like in practice. It's really quite hilarious how you've been trolling this forum, basically just this thread, for 3 months, saying this or that is going to cause the game to implode.
Meanwhile there are people enjoying the game.
Maybe, just maybe, there isn't that big of a market for sandbox MMOs and that's part of why it's not doing super great in other regions. It doesn't mean it can't be a great game for some people.
For me, BDO's combat and world design make this less painful than some games I've played but it isn't for everyone.
I'm by no means an expert of BDO, but I believe I've played it longer than you played AA, so there is that.
You are explaining your subjective view of game concepts that don't exactly match up with specifics of this particular game. There is overlap between them all, but you are cherry picking to fit your opinion. Anything can happen but you are making claims as if they are 100% going to happen which is silly.
Few things you can do in BDO once you make it to lvl 50 or sooner depending on your route:
- Continue past 50 on the way to 56 for Awakening Weapon.
- Grind/Hunt for elite mobs for rare drop gear.
- Kill world bosses.
- Grind for silver to obtain/upgrade gear.
- Grind for skill points to unlock more skills/tiers.
- Complete quests (daily, one time, repeatable) for Contribution/Drops.
- Do summon scrolls/disco balls for boss mobs and drops.
- Explore the world and find all the "hidden" spots, npcs, quests.
- Unlock titles which can provide buffs.
- Tame/Breed horses.
- Horse races.
- Make Boats, Fish, hunt Whales.
- Make Trade Packs, Wagons/Carts and do Trade Stuff.
- Level up Stamina/Weight/Horse/Pets.
- Plant a farm and farm.
- Master one of the crafting skills (cooking, alchemy, gear, gathering).
- Connect nodes, obtain buildings, upgrade buildings, hire workers, make them do stuff, do stuff with that stuff.
- Play house and decorate your house(s) which can provide buffs.
- PVP/GVG in various shaped and sizes. Arena duel, 3v3, 30vs30, node war, siege, open world, etc.
- Collect Bounties on player heads.
- As much is shared between characters, very easy to lvl up others.
- Sure there is more, but that's the default list I give when people don't know what to do.
If you consider all of this NO content not sure what else I can say. You clearly live in tunnel vision land so I'm sure if a game doesn't have X exactly how you like, then it sucks.Coming into the forum of a game and trashing it along with fans is pretty pointless. As I've asked, what do you think you'll accomplish? Maybe you'll save one poor soul not bright enough to see all the terrible things to come? Thank you for being a gaming good samaritan?
For $30 be it someone is HARDCORE! or casual, the game offers quite a lot to do. It isn't for everyone and people will get bored and go back to WoW or forums or League. Is what it is. It's not meant to be the savior for competitive PVPers everywhere or candy land for PVE folks.
Could you give some examples of what a good game looks like that is free of issues? Clearly you are currently playing it instead of wasting your time on this forum...
Here is my main concern with Enchanting. If this is anything like other MMOS with RMT RNG modifiers, this will be very bad. BDO will even be worse. I'll explain my thoughts. In games where you have a progressively decreasing chance for success to successfully "craft" an item, you will eventually reach a point where you cannot succeed beyond. No matter how many times you try, your chance to succeed becomes zero. Unless you are able to purchase RNG modifiers.
Here's where the BDO "Pay to (no) Win" situation comes into play. IF (I'm saying if because I can't find the definitive answer) There are modifiers for sale, that means, players who spend money, will be able to achieve results that will simply not be available to the "No-Lifer" grinder player, they will not be able to catch up. EVER! Not in, not in 1000 hrs, not in 10000 hrs. It is a mathematical impossibility. It is at this point where the non-cash shop trading policy becomes a liability. Without the ability to play though and grind gold to trade for those items, it only isolates the rift between those who spend and those who don't.
"Items such as the "Shout to Augsburg", an item that was included as bonus in some cash shop packages, has been removed for our service. (This item could be used to increase your chances in succeeding your upgrade attempts of equipment) "
Go Grinding - grind
Fish - AFK grind
Process - AFK grind
Cook - AFK grind
Dailies - grind
Word Bosses - tank and spank / grind
Node Wars - giant cluster f*** due to mega server
GvG - Easy to dodge due to mega server
Arena - just a place to show off your gear, game is not balanced to 1v1
Horse Riding - not endgame content lol
None of what you have described is compelling endgame content and listing AFK crafting as endgame content is acutally hilarious.
Basically all of the activities involve grinding out silver to spend on gear upgrades for PvP that barely exists due to the mega server problems.
There isn't even a zone where you can 24/7 pvp without karma loss. At least AA had the ocean/Halcyona/War zones.
The only potentially good endgame activity I see is GvG against willing opponents. The problem is that there really isn't much to it other than random fights around the map. You can't kick them out of an area, just kill and spawn camp until you get bored and leave.
I guess the leaderboard shows KDR, but thats the type of thing Asian games use to motivate people to keep grinding / P2W.
No mention that they will not put these kinds of items back into the shop after release. F2P games have a dark history of bait and switch. I can't count how many I have played that stated they would never put anything but cosmetic items in their shops and then.......
I can assure you that most cash shop developers have no integrity and could care less about the integrity of their game if it diminishes the monetary return they expect from the game, even if it isn't deserved or earned.
They a have a publishing deal (or something similar) with Daum Co Ltd for the game Black Desert online which are part of Kakao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakao a huge multi billion Dollar tech company they have a shit ton of sub companys ofc mobile gaming as well it's huge in Asia.
You've gone on and on about what you don't like about these games, do you actually enjoy anything?
All MMO endgame is grind, man. You don't know that?
Only thing missing compared to standard MMOs is the lack of dungeons/raids, but in Black Desert there are other things that themeparks don't have- like Whale hunting, gardening, trading, guild wars etc. Dungeons/raids aren't too compelling for me, so I won't miss them in Black Desert.
At this point I'm going to stop responding to you in this thread. The only thing you've done for the past 3 months is troll this thread and I feel like I'm just feeding a troll by responding.
I agree it's a very good thing it won't be in our version.
I find people interesting and he is no exception.
13 days and counting and I won't be wasting my time responding to such negative nancys. Till then, they are good for a laugh or two.
For all the issues that Reddit might have, I appreciate that folks like him get down voted to nothing rather quickly when they don't actually have anything of worth to add beyond their disgruntled baggage. Here they seem to just drag it on for so long without accomplishing much as they kept being fed.