I see it the same way as if we were talking of racing games - one is a simulation and the other is an arcade game. I'm pretty sure majority of gamers wouldn't like an idea of your car being able to crash or spin, or that you had to switch gears manually by pressing keys.
Afterall, it's boring and unnecessary to have to micromanage your car when all you want to do is to drive fast, right?
Surprisingly, there are markets for both of these playing styles, whether you like it or not.
Edit: Don't want to be disrespectful in any way. I'm just a bit tense because of some poster in other forum regarding about this same subject.
Your comparison makes little sense. Sitting to eat between each fight, having to macro-craft arrows, XP loss, corpse runs do NOT make combat easier, it just adds tedium and time wasting. What you describe between the two car games makes one game easier, and also in both car games, you spend your time PLAYING, what you describe is activities part of driving (aka combat in a car game).
I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Sitting to eat is like having a service between races, micro-managing arrows is like filling up for a next race, xp loss equals damage taken to your car while corpse runs can be seen as a new vehicle being delivered to replace a wrecked car.
If you play well you could avoid or lessen these events. It's a reward itself for a good play and should be encouraged much more by developers.
The analogy doesn't really work. A better analogy would be after the race you'd have to drive your car back into the garage to refuel, give the car a wash.
If you play well you shouldn't need to eat/rest after a fight as you "micro managed" the combat so you wouldn't need to. That happens in todays MMOs, the wait time just isn't as long.
However, it doesn't matter how skilled your driving is, you need the downtime of tyre changes regardless.
The wait time really wasn't that necessary in the older MMOs as it was simple to figure out what went wrong. You didn't need all that time to think.
You can be dedicated to whatever you want to in life.
There are some scientists that spent their whole life mostly watching different kinds of moss or starting at the starts every night to try and identify planets.
Nothing really has meaning unless you give it meaning.
Exactly.
By dedication back then I mean having to edit the Autoexec.bat and config.sys files to get games running. or further back to having to wait 15 minutes for the game to load from the tape and listening to the screeching noise while it loaded. The dedication to getting an additional phone line installed for the modem. The dedication to paying for an expensive hobby. The dedication to buying expensive equipment. The dedication to learning about a new technology while your friends were trying to work out how to break dance.
Anyone who is old enough will know what I mean by dedication in the early days of gaming and not try to pervert it.
During the middle ages, some people were dedicated to not die before the age of 30. Sounds like fun, right, when we live in a world where medical progress increased human live on average to the high 70s/Low 80s.
Same thing about what you're talking about here. Back then, there was no choice, so we did it. That doesn't mean we should replicate that today just for the sake of the good old times. I enjoy my broadband Internet at low costs, my SSD, and my MMORPGs where I can focus on playing rather than on tedious and boring micromanagement like eating between each fight, making arrows, XP loss, corpse runs, etc...
My post was pointing out the social aspects of gaming rather then the technological aspects and why you were less likely to find dicks online due to the effort required back then.
Really? I remember a lot of real asshats in all three major old school games, UO, EQ and AC1. You even had "dedicated" asshats actually. Do you really think it's the new games which invented chat rudeness, asshat behavior, ninja looting, kill stealing, ganking, corpse camping, etc... ?
But then, I lost my rose glasses long ago. Gives the whole MMORPG community an a bit more darker and realistic color, but at least I can enjoy newer games for what they are, and not hate them for what old games were not
Well, I don't deny there were plenty of asshats. I probably was considered one by some people. I just miss knowing people good, bad or the ugly. I don't need to be buddy buddy, just a general community where you see people, like people, hate people. These days everyone is running around instant leveling in instances to be seen.
an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
According to Eadan dictionary definitions do not count, so we might as well throw the entire english language out of the debate, we're speaking Eadanian now apparently.
Edit: apparently Throw is through in such language..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
According to Eadan dictionary definitions do not count, so we might as well throw the entire english language out of the debate, we're speaking Eadanian now apparently.
Edit: apparently Throw is through in such language..
An argument with no foundation either side can agree on? Oh, that's not going to end well.
Obviously gaming is a hobby guys, no one but mindless trolls would argue otherwise. I guess for pro gamers it's a job but whatever, it's not really a debate that needs to be had. Pretty common sense stuff here.
What does this have to do with dumbed down gameplay anyways? I'd add something to the OP but it was too long to read, and it goes without saying I didn't look at any of these other 16 pages...
So, then, why? Do you know how many times i have typed up a resonse, waited 2 minutes and clicked the back button instead of Post? All this does is prove that you are willfully violating the TOS.
I really don't like to question whether folks are trolling here or not, I tend to just let them prove it, it's becoming more and more clear what type of input we'll be seeing as he/she adds to their 26 posts here thus far. It typically from what I've seen thus far devolves to this. Add in the avatar, it seems a pretty clear cut case.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Obviously gaming is a hobby guys, no one but mindless trolls would argue otherwise. I guess for pro gamers it's a job but whatever, it's not really a debate that needs to be had. Pretty common sense stuff here.
meh just wasting my leisure time, it provided a good couple laughs .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You guys can believe whatever you want to believe gaming is. Just know that you look ridiculous when you argue for 16 pages about why gaming isn't as satisfying, when it's obviously the mentality that they are "just games" or worse "complete waste of time" that some people here share also. If you see games as just another way to prove your consumerism, they will be just another product that doesn't really satisfy you further than being a product you didn't really need.
You have totally misconstrued through interpretation what folks mean by that. Just because they consider it a time waster doesn't mean they don't want a quality experience. Secondly the few who argued such points with you seem to enjoy games as they are today, to some extent at least.
I'm glad I can digress to the overall point of this thread somewhere in this exchange... your argument is that the schemes used to monetize are what lead to this? That might be true if the genre didn't turn this way before the F2P transition. The MMORPG genre started down this path far before that, with WOW, COH, the changes to SWG, LOTRO, WH:OL, DDO, AOC etc.... That's where the streamlining as well as focus on mainstream appeal started.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You guys can believe whatever you want to believe gaming is. Just know that you look ridiculous when you argue for 16 pages about why gaming isn't as satisfying, when it's obviously the mentality that they are "just games" or worse "complete waste of time" that some people here share also. If you see games as just another way to prove your consumerism, they will be just another product that doesn't really satisfy you further than being a product you didn't really need.
We all choose to believe what we want. And since the definition of hobby has been posted and perfectly describes gaming, the majority of us choose to believe gaming is a hobby. What possible benefit do you gain by rejecting the common definition of a word?
Not sure where you concocted the idea that some people are playing games to 'prove their consumerism'. Sounds like a strawman.
Instead, players play for fun (and/or relaxation.)
As for "just games", most often I see that phrase used as an attempt to discredit the serious discussion of games (typically from dabbler-type gamers who are unwilling or unable to think things through enough to contribute to the discussion) though occasionally I suppose it's justified (occasionally people get way too emotional and melodramatic on the topic, and it's good to remind them it's "just a game".) I suppose it's also used as a rationalization to not make a serious effort at the game itself (which I find strange, since the point of gaming to me is solidly focused on skill development.)
As for "complete waste of time", that's mostly just nonsense. For starters, you actually do develop skills and problem-solving capabilities through gaming. But perhaps more importantly, it's never a waste of time to do something you enjoy doing (within the obvious bound of that enjoyment not coming at the cost of someone else.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well if your gona call it a hobby then we can compare it to such. Like model making. Now we have Models that come pre painted and all you need to do is pull the pieces off the plastic boarders and assemble then you have those that require wet baslm wood and pins to set the shapes before assembly.
But what this industry did was make all models the plastic type.
Or even now all paintings are done with paint by numbers and the only free style painting requires you to watch a 1970s Bob Ross video! I mean really the only way to get any "smart up" in game play is to PvP and the majority doesnt want that.
Seems obvious to me that someone who sees gaming as a complete waste of time would be interested in it because they were turned to a consumer. Like any product a consumer buys without judging its value to themselves, they will most likely turn out unsatisfactory.
If anyone agrees with the industry using the term "F2P" to refer ro the ability to "login to a server to make an experience more appealing for users to spend money on", they have no right to complain about the state of gaming.
If you view gaming as a waste of time, why would you consume it? Your "obvious" assumption makes no sense at all.
And I have no clue what you're trying to say with that last bit. "Login to a server to make an experience more appealing for users to spend money on"?!? What is that even supposed to mean? Free to play's definition isn't complicated: Is the majority of the gameplay free to play? Then it's free to play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Seems obvious to me that someone who sees gaming as a complete waste of time would be interested in it because they were turned to a consumer. Like any product a consumer buys without judging its value to themselves, they will most likely turn out unsatisfactory.
If anyone agrees with the industry using the term "F2P" to refer ro the ability to "login to a server to make an experience more appealing for users to spend money on", they have no right to complain about the state of gaming.
I didnt really fine the EQ (luclin days) all that impressive, maybe it was a case of 'it gets better later' but i was only able to get to 26 on my mage (also did the quenos to freeport trek once). It largely seemed to fill a pseudo facebook role pre facebook/myspace people just hanging out at spawn points camping and chatting. Maybe I wasnt doing it right.
Seems obvious to me that someone who sees gaming as a complete waste of time would be interested in it because they were turned to a consumer. Like any product a consumer buys without judging its value to themselves, they will most likely turn out unsatisfactory.
If anyone agrees with the industry using the term "F2P" to refer ro the ability to "login to a server to make an experience more appealing for users to spend money on", they have no right to complain about the state of gaming.
1: a person who buys and uses up goods2: a living thing that must eat other organisms to obtain energy necessary for life
Can you people stop trying to use 2 line dictionary definitions to oversimplify and miss the real meaning of words, that can only adequately be described by whole books?
A man who cannot say what he means, cannot mean what he says.
Any evidence supporting this statement? Or just nonsense?
It pretty much is 100x better... at least... Just the sheer difference in mechanics, viable builds, build options, etc... The rate at which they add new content... Even the graphics(try zooming in in PoE with a good video card).
Majority isn't all, nor does it have a very clear definition. If you insist on not understanding the cash shop model and waste your time and money for such "games", feel free.
"Majority" is not an unclear, confusing word. It means "the greater number", meaning a F2P game offers more than half its gameplay free of charge.
Also, don't accuse others of insisting on not understanding after I quoted a sentence you wrote which made no sense. I work on F2P games, so I have an extremely well-developed understanding of the model. But what you said literally made no sense.
Just make a coherent post that shows an understanding of basic word definitions. If you can't do that, we can't really have a discussion on account of your failure to communicate.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
May be people have time to waste? We don't need to use every single second of our life productively, do we?
People just don't do things they consider a "waste of time". There is always a perceived value motivating the decision to do something. Because it's good for society, or good for my family, or good for my income, or it's just fun.
So anyone who's finding any of that value from a product and then proceeding to call it a "waste of time" simply has a malformed notion of what wasting time is.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
If you play well you shouldn't need to eat/rest after a fight as you "micro managed" the combat so you wouldn't need to. That happens in todays MMOs, the wait time just isn't as long.
However, it doesn't matter how skilled your driving is, you need the downtime of tyre changes regardless.
The wait time really wasn't that necessary in the older MMOs as it was simple to figure out what went wrong. You didn't need all that time to think.
Well, I don't deny there were plenty of asshats. I probably was considered one by some people. I just miss knowing people good, bad or the ugly. I don't need to be buddy buddy, just a general community where you see people, like people, hate people. These days everyone is running around instant leveling in instances to be seen.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Edit: apparently Throw is through in such language..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well personally gaming is a subset of hobby to me.
What do I do in my leisure time? Gaming.....
Probably the same people who would answer food when asked what they eat for lunch.
What does this have to do with dumbed down gameplay anyways? I'd add something to the OP but it was too long to read, and it goes without saying I didn't look at any of these other 16 pages...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm glad I can digress to the overall point of this thread somewhere in this exchange... your argument is that the schemes used to monetize are what lead to this? That might be true if the genre didn't turn this way before the F2P transition. The MMORPG genre started down this path far before that, with WOW, COH, the changes to SWG, LOTRO, WH:OL, DDO, AOC etc.... That's where the streamlining as well as focus on mainstream appeal started.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not sure where you concocted the idea that some people are playing games to 'prove their consumerism'. Sounds like a strawman.
Instead, players play for fun (and/or relaxation.)
As for "just games", most often I see that phrase used as an attempt to discredit the serious discussion of games (typically from dabbler-type gamers who are unwilling or unable to think things through enough to contribute to the discussion) though occasionally I suppose it's justified (occasionally people get way too emotional and melodramatic on the topic, and it's good to remind them it's "just a game".) I suppose it's also used as a rationalization to not make a serious effort at the game itself (which I find strange, since the point of gaming to me is solidly focused on skill development.)
As for "complete waste of time", that's mostly just nonsense. For starters, you actually do develop skills and problem-solving capabilities through gaming. But perhaps more importantly, it's never a waste of time to do something you enjoy doing (within the obvious bound of that enjoyment not coming at the cost of someone else.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But what this industry did was make all models the plastic type.
Or even now all paintings are done with paint by numbers and the only free style painting requires you to watch a 1970s Bob Ross video!
I mean really the only way to get any "smart up" in game play is to PvP and the majority doesnt want that.
And I have no clue what you're trying to say with that last bit. "Login to a server to make an experience more appealing for users to spend money on"?!? What is that even supposed to mean? Free to play's definition isn't complicated: Is the majority of the gameplay free to play? Then it's free to play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We are all consumers and the word consumer has no negative connotations attached to it period.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consumer
Definition of consumer
1: a person who buys and uses up goods2: a living thing that must eat other organisms to obtain energy necessary for life
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
A man who cannot say what he means, cannot mean what he says.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Just the sheer difference in mechanics, viable builds, build options, etc... The rate at which they add new content... Even the graphics(try zooming in in PoE with a good video card).
Also, don't accuse others of insisting on not understanding after I quoted a sentence you wrote which made no sense. I work on F2P games, so I have an extremely well-developed understanding of the model. But what you said literally made no sense.
Just make a coherent post that shows an understanding of basic word definitions. If you can't do that, we can't really have a discussion on account of your failure to communicate.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
People just don't do things they consider a "waste of time". There is always a perceived value motivating the decision to do something. Because it's good for society, or good for my family, or good for my income, or it's just fun.
So anyone who's finding any of that value from a product and then proceeding to call it a "waste of time" simply has a malformed notion of what wasting time is.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver